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Author Topic: Modified ECU/Computer
George Munson Verified Driver
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I hate to say this but shouldn't racing be decided by the best prepped car and driver. The idea of building a car, setting it and forgetting it is out of line in the real world. I can understand possibly of a sealed ECU as the range can be way out of line. But the problem with that is no one seems to be able to keep up with the demand, ie (Fat Cat shock parts). It seems we have a range already speced in the book of what can be done so lets live with it. The powers to be are hard at work trying to fix the problem areas in our class and that is where the focus should be. I for one want to be rewarded for the time and effort spent on my car and driving. For me thats what racing is all about.

Just my take,
George Munson

pat slattery Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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George if that is all that it entails I would agree with you.

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cam Verified Driver
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George:

You are presenting a very practical perspective that in its own right, is valid. For example, we have adjustable spring perches, if one wants to be competitive, then he has to learn how to adjust the ride height. This is both legal per class rules and encouraged. The problem comes when some of the more cleaver or lucky builder and/or racers start to adjust items that are not meant to be adjusted. For example, there is a factory spec for engine displacement with specific bore and stroke. One can adjust these but it would be cheating and reasonably easy to test. The problem with the OBDII style ECUs is that (I’m being told) they are fairly easily adjusted outside of factory intended specs for a significant performance gain. As the rules sit today, adjusting the ECU and/or related inputs is cheating but is difficult to detect.

There are three primary course of action:
1) do nothing, some will have a distinct advantage and takes the Spec out of Spec Miata
2) close all loop holes and spec an ECU and related inputs. This will cost a lot and some will still find a way around it.
3) open up ECU so everyone can choose to play with ECUs just like we play with ride height and sway bar setting. This will reward the better prep’ed car and generally speaking, will cost a lot.

There are pros and cons with each type of solution and multiple variations of each as well.

In the mean time, I’m hanging on to my 1.6 and enjoying the closest wheel to wheel racing in the SCCA and NASA.

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Dwayne Hoover Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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quote:
Originally posted by Kent Carter:
Dave,

I would be more in favor of a sealed ECU (and more parts even) through SCCA Enterprises and a minimum fuel pressure spec that is more like the average (60ish PSIG) versus the exception (54ish PSIG). These values are for the 99 but we must do the same for all the cars.

Okey doke. So, you get your spec ECU ($300? $600? $1000?) and let's say you buy a new fuel pump for $200 hoping it is 60 psi (if that is indeed what Mazda or Enterprises has tuned the ECU for).

(My brand new FPR blew 62psi, but my 47K mile street 99 blows 59 psi, FWIW).

You go to the dyno. It is rich. Or it is lean.

Spec fuel in HPT had 0% oxygen (I think?). maybe your your pump fuel has 3% (mine does). Maybe your local track fuel has 3% (i.e. GT100). Spec fuel at RA has 3%.

NOW WHAT? I know what I do ... I go to my wall of unsquished regulators.

What will you do? What would you advise everyone else do?

[ 03-03-2010, 03:15 PM: Message edited by: Robert Fender ]

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davew Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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My point is simple. If any car proves to be an overdog it will get slowed down. If we can not find a way to police ECUs properly, and "tech shed legal" is the point everybody wants to prep to, then cars will get slowed down and all the time and money spent will end up being wasted.

It is the competitors job to make the car go as fast as possible.
It is the rules makers job to write appropriate rules.
It is the competitors job to protest any competitor they feel is stepping beyond those rules.

[ 03-03-2010, 01:36 PM: Message edited by: Drago ]

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Jerret Gerber
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I have read alot on this ecu thing on the forum, but all in all i like what davew says. It is are job to find a way to go faster legally, if you think someone has a distinct advantage protest. My theory on protesting is like this. Drivers don't want to be the goat protesting others so nobody does it. What drivers should then do is ask others to protest as well, then maybe we will see some action done. I really don't want to see this class get ruined because of cost. Its way too much fun and I have met a lot of great people since joing scca. Lets just go and race and have some fun.

pat slattery Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by davew:
My point is simple. If any car proves to be an overdog it will get slowed down. If we can not find a way to police ECUs properly, and "tech shed legal" is the point everybody wants to prep to, then cars will get slowed down and all the time and money spent will end up being wasted.

It is the competitors job to make the car go as fast as possible.
It is the rules makers job to write appropriate rules.
It is the competitors job to protest any competitor they feel is stepping beyond those

rules.
[/QUOTE

Dave the part of protesting is the part I have the problem with. I still maintain it is the race promotor's duty to do tech. At least something to keep people on there toes.

Just because I think someone is "to Fast" what should I protest. It is impossible to project what the competitor is cheating up, if anything. Sure if I am aware of a certain item that I believe is being abused under the rule, but, explain how one should protest and are we supposed to go on a fishing expedition to find out what is being cheated up, if anything.

Pat

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Willie the Tard Verified Driver
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I asked long ago that the list of cheats and how to detect them compiled by the SMAC be published to allow us to better police ourselves. And was told "thanks for your input". [Frown]

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Dwayne Hoover Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Re: davew's comment, The big area of disagreement I see is what constitutes "proof" that one car is an "overdog".

I also used to be the guy saying that requiring protests was lazy on the part of the race promoter ... but having been through several painful and inconveniently timed "compliance checks" with both NASA and SCCA made me change my tune pretty quick. I had to *beg* NASA not to have my shocks removed *before* the race, and offered that they could take them and hacksaw them into 1000 pieces AFTER the race. My cams were AWOL for the June Sprints I never made it to. And so on and so on.

Now I am in full agreement with "Put your money where your mouth is" re: protests.

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Dwayne Hoover Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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quote:
Originally posted by Willie the Tard:
I asked long ago that the list of cheats and how to detect them compiled by the SMAC be published to allow us to better police ourselves. And was told "thanks for your input". [Frown]

Much of the best information TO the SMAC comes from people that would stop supplying them with the information if they made it public to anyone that asked.

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Willie the Tard Verified Driver
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quote:
Originally posted by Robert Fender:
quote:
Originally posted by Willie the Tard:
I asked long ago that the list of cheats and how to detect them compiled by the SMAC be published to allow us to better police ourselves. And was told "thanks for your input". [Frown]

Much of the best information TO the SMAC comes from people that would stop supplying them with the information if they made it public to anyone that asked.
nice perk

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davew Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Pat, actually it is teh sanctioning bodies job, not the promoter. But this is club racing, there is not paid tech staff at EVERY race. Heck, we all paid an extra $10 and got a couple dozen inspections over a season. Maybe 300 races? If we wanted the sanctioning body to do full compliance testing we would have $1000 entry fees.

In club racing it is only going to happen if there is a protest. Let's face facts. I would prefer that everybody had an equal respect for the rules as written and a guilty conscense if they stepped outside the rules. But that aint ever gonna happen. We have to police ourselves.

Dave

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pat slattery Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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I guess I am spoiled, coming from the World Karting Association. We had a very complete tech at the end of every national race and even divisionals for that matter. Obviously not everyone or every possible item is teched but most of the main things. We are at the track 2 hrs after the last race with tech. We could have this also but we take the cheap way out and do not demand it. We have the tools paid for why not continue on with the compliance fee and make people toe the line.

Does the SCCA have to tech everyone or everything. NO, but, we could tech the top car and maybe a couple of random cars in the top 5 and atleast have the threat of tech to keep the cheaters somewhat honest or atleast cautious about cheating.

Pat

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Mike C Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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quote:
Originally posted by pat slattery:

Dave the part of protesting is the part I have the problem with. I still maintain it is the race promotor's duty to do tech. At least something to keep people on there toes.

Just because I think someone is "to Fast" what should I protest. It is impossible to project what the competitor is cheating up, if anything. Sure if I am aware of a certain item that I believe is being abused under the rule, but, explain how one should protest and are we supposed to go on a fishing expedition to find out what is being cheated up, if anything.

Pat[/QB]

Pat have you read the rules? The SCCA is not going to technically inspect cars after a race for compliance other than GREAT BIG obvious things like restrictor plates and weight. Other than that it is up to you to protest. In the WDCR I protest drivers all the time, a lot of it is little cheap things or having the car whistled but we do protest.

Build a legal car and show up and race, its a club. If you think someone is cheating write paper or go home and be a troll on the internet!

--------------------
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pat slattery Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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quote:
Originally posted by Mike C:
quote:
Originally posted by pat slattery:

Dave the part of protesting is the part I have the problem with. I still maintain it is the race promotor's duty to do tech. At least something to keep people on there toes.

Just because I think someone is "to Fast" what should I protest. It is impossible to project what the competitor is cheating up, if anything. Sure if I am aware of a certain item that I believe is being abused under the rule, but, explain how one should protest and are we supposed to go on a fishing expedition to find out what is being cheated up, if anything.

Pat

Pat have you read the rules? The SCCA is not going to technically inspect cars after a race for compliance other than GREAT BIG obvious things like restrictor plates and weight. Other than that it is up to you to protest. In the WDCR I protest drivers all the time, a lot of it is little cheap things or having the car whistled but we do protest.

Build a legal car and show up and race, its a club. If you think someone is cheating write paper or go home and be a troll on the internet! [/QB]

Mike just trying to come up with a solution to cheating, you apparently don't think there is cheating going on. I guess, or you are not concerned. Based on the National tech, I would say you don't appear to be that concerned, or don't want to acknowledge a problem with the protest prodedure.

Why even have a tech for the Runoffs, just let everyone protest each other. This is a silly system, just put up your money and let everyone go on a fishing expedition to find out where they are cheating if they are.

Pat

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David Dewhurst
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***The SCCA is not going to technically inspect cars after a race for compliance other than GREAT BIG obvious things like restrictor plates and weight.***

Mike, typically at Road America other than & before the Runoffs showed up some tech is completed beyond RP & weight. A few years ago when the two older Coello brothers did 1 & 2 they were viewed taking thier heads off under the watchful eye of the SCCA tech's. Been going on since. One of the good ol boys from the south east lost his Q times this year at one of the races at Road America. IIRC a couple times this past year the heads came off the top 2 or 3. Was never in tech so don't know the details. The Big guy could tell you. [Smile]

--------------------
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Kent Carter Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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quote:
Originally posted by TimBuck:
quote:
Originally posted by Kent Carter:
through SCCA Enterprises

Or how about through Mazda??? I'm not sayin...
Tim, you guys do it and I'm ON BOARD. I always choose to do business with you!

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Drago Verified Driver Made Donation to Website Series Champ
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Dave
I think in 06 at the Sprints was first year of National SM racing they pulled heads on the top three at the Sprints. I think that was mostly b/c it was Sprints and first Sprints with SM as National class. This year, just my head was pulled. In the 07,08 there was very little tech, fuel,weight and plate, that's all.
I think the compliance team going away was a major mistake. I know how our current system works, but I don't really like it either. Truth be told, other than the Sprints and the Runoffs, a guy could run an ITS( E prod for that matter) motor all year and probably never have it protested. It is a major expense, mostly a big guess in most instances. I don't like the system either, but it is what we have. The compliance team, while it had some issues as well was far better than not having the compliance team. In short, it was a very good thing for SM. We were foolish not to support it. I would love for some letters to come in supporting it and asking for it's reinstatement. I think it did a much better job of keeping more people honest, my fear is without it, we will be back to the wild wild west and the run what ya brung days of south Florida in 03/05 [Wink]

Pat,
You really think by checking the winner and random guys in the top 5 your are going to find much non compliance? I think you are looking in the wrong neighborhood for the most part. Check p5-p15 and you will find 90% on non compliance IMO. I have started a few races from the back and passing some of the mid pack guys is dam near impossible in a straight line [Wink]
Jim

--------------------
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davew Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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I will verify that the 2 Coello brothers had heads pulled off at the Sprints.

I will agree there is a lot of non compliance in mid pack.

I will agree we are much closer to the intent of the rules today than a few years ago.

I completely disgree that you could say to Mike Collins "you apparently don't think there is cheating going on"

Mike sleeps with the GCR. I don't always agree with his interpritation, but he knows what it says. And writes paper to prove it.

Dave

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seege Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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quote:
Originally posted by Drago
...I have started a few races from the back and passing some of the mid pack guys is dam near impossible in a straight line [Wink]
Jim [/QB]

Should your straight-line power be any better than a mid-pack car? A fresh mid-pack guy should have every bit of power you have.
Sorry, but I couldn't let that softball go by.

I've run in a couple touring classes and heard that mid-pack cheating yarn a few times... I've seen some real hotrods in the middle of things a few times...the majority (all) of the dq'ed cars I've seen have come from the podium. Obviously the front runners get the most scrutiny but,
I hate to see the conversation turn to the mid-pack black helicopters when a few of the leaders are the ones that have cheated with the most effect. Thanks.

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Danny Steyn Verified Driver
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quote:
Originally posted by seege:
quote:
Originally posted by Drago
...I have started a few races from the back and passing some of the mid pack guys is dam near impossible in a straight line [Wink]
Jim

Should your straight-line power be any better than a mid-pack car? A fresh mid-pack guy should have every bit of power you have.
Sorry, but I couldn't let that softball go by.

I've run in a couple touring classes and heard that mid-pack cheating yarn a few times... I've seen some real hotrods in the middle of things a few times...the majority (all) of the dq'ed cars I've seen have come from the podium. Obviously the front runners get the most scrutiny but,
I hate to see the conversation turn to the mid-pack black helicopters when a few of the leaders are the ones that have cheated with the most effect. Thanks. [/QB]

you're kidding right!!!! Sorry but I dont know who you are but you just have to look under the hood of some of the cars in the mid pack in the SEDiv to see the blatant disregard of rules.....

Whats more, is that since the mid pack driver seldom ever gets sent to tech, he becomes blase about it.

I have urged Drago and others in power to have EVERY SM driver be forced to drive through tech EVERY race and EVERY qualifying session. Have the SCCA tech the top 3-5 AND pull another 3 or 4 randomly every race and every qualifying session, and you will suddenly see a few mid pack cars slow down quite a bit.

Lets face it, we are all decent human beings, but if you can speed down the interstate and you know there will NEVER be a cop, are you going to stick at the speed limit? Not gonna happen - we will all speed to where we think we can get away with it.

It is the fear of being pulled over that keeps us obeying the rules, and for some in SM this fear has NEVER existed.

Just my $0.02 - flame away

--------------------
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I for one have never seen a cone-shaped venturi in a mid-pack car.... maybe they are out there.

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quote:
Originally posted by seege:
quote:
Originally posted by Drago
...I have started a few races from the back and passing some of the mid pack guys is dam near impossible in a straight line [Wink]
Jim

Should your straight-line power be any better than a mid-pack car? Thanks. [/QB]
At worst we should be equal. If a mid pack car is pulling me on the straights when my car is right, I feel within 99% certainity there is compliance issue.

--------------------
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Vick Verified Driver
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quote:
Originally posted by Danny Steyn:
Sorry but I dont know who you are but you just have to look under the hood of some of the cars in the mid pack in the SEDiv to see the blatant disregard of rules.....


Danny, something that has been done up here in the NE after a qually or a race is an impound all, everyone opens the hoods, and all the competitors (and whoever else is around really) can walk around and take a peak at things.

don't know how much can be achieved in 7 minutes of looking around after getting a talking to from the stewards, but at least in SSM we can check the color of plug wires.... baby steps.

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quote:
Originally posted by Danny Steyn:
quote:
Originally posted by seege:
quote:
Originally posted by Drago
...I have started a few races from the back and passing some of the mid pack guys is dam near impossible in a straight line [Wink]
Jim

Should your straight-line power be any better than a mid-pack car? A fresh mid-pack guy should have every bit of power you have.
Sorry, but I couldn't let that softball go by.

I've run in a couple touring classes and heard that mid-pack cheating yarn a few times... I've seen some real hotrods in the middle of things a few times...the majority (all) of the dq'ed cars I've seen have come from the podium. Obviously the front runners get the most scrutiny but,
I hate to see the conversation turn to the mid-pack black helicopters when a few of the leaders are the ones that have cheated with the most effect. Thanks.

you're kidding right!!!! Sorry but I dont know who you are but you just have to look under the hood of some of the cars in the mid pack in the SEDiv to see the blatant disregard of rules.....

Whats more, is that since the mid pack driver seldom ever gets sent to tech, he becomes blase about it.

I have urged Drago and others in power to have EVERY SM driver be forced to drive through tech EVERY race and EVERY qualifying session. Have the SCCA tech the top 3-5 AND pull another 3 or 4 randomly every race and every qualifying session, and you will suddenly see a few mid pack cars slow down quite a bit.

Lets face it, we are all decent human beings, but if you can speed down the interstate and you know there will NEVER be a cop, are you going to stick at the speed limit? Not gonna happen - we will all speed to where we think we can get away with it.

It is the fear of being pulled over that keeps us obeying the rules, and for some in SM this fear has NEVER existed.

Just my $0.02 - flame away [/QB]

Danny, I have to agree, with out the threat of detection people do become blase, or worse, arrogant to the rules because they have no fear.

I don't think just relying on Protest will get the job done, IMHO

Pat

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Kyle Freiheit
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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Olson:
I for one have never seen a cone-shaped venturi in a mid-pack car.... maybe they are out there.

Must have missed this. Color me naive, what are you refering too?

Kyle

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Kyle

Its a conical smoothing device to create laminar flow through a flow-disrupting restrictor plate.

One miraculously appeared from the throttle body of a car next to me in impound at my very first race!!!!

And I got DQ'd too, for another transgression .... learned a good lesson in my very first race. Pay attention to everything. If you are the driver, you are responsible.

--------------------
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2010 June Sprints Champ, 2010 ARRC SMX Champ
2009 SARRC Champ, 2009 SEDiv ECR Champ, 2009 FES Champ
2008 SEDiv ECR Champ

Kyle Freiheit
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Region: NWR
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Year : 1992
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Interesting, yeah I knew what a venturi was, just wondering what idiot would try that and where they would try to put it.

Jamie Tucker Series Champ

ARRC 2010 Champ

Region: CFR
Car #: 97
Year : 1990/99
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quote:
Originally posted by Kyle Freiheit:
Interesting, yeah I knew what a venturi was, just wondering what idiot would try that and where they would try to put it.

There's a lot of idiots that have and still do it. A few of them would be considered well respected on this forum!

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2010 ARRC Champion
2010 CFR Champion
2010 instigator of the year
2010/2011 Andrew Von C Wingman

Drago Verified Driver Made Donation to Website Series Champ
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quote:
Originally posted by Jamie Tucker:
quote:
Originally posted by Kyle Freiheit:
Interesting, yeah I knew what a venturi was, just wondering what idiot would try that and where they would try to put it.

There's a lot of idiots that have and still do it. A few of them would be considered well respected on this forum!
+1

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Jim Drago
East Street Auto Salvage
jdrago1@aol.com
2006-2007 Mid-West Division
07,09 June Sprints Champion

EAST STREET RACING

Todd Lamb Verified Driver Made Donation to Website Series Champ
Playboy Mazda MX-5 Cup Champion 2009

Region: SE Div, Atlanta
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Year : Party like it's ____
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+2

...and to add to Drago's point from before. The mid pack guys are there because they either 1) don't have the HP or 2) don't have the corner speed. Or maybe both. So In these momentum cars when a mid-pack car gives a front running car a serious shootout down a straightaway something usually is awry.

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Mazdaspeed // SafeRacer // Traqmate // OPM Autosports // East Street Auto // Cobalt Friction
Racers Edge Motorsports Rolex GT RX-8 // i-MOTO Racing Conti Challenge MAZDASPEED3
Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/toddspeed

disquek Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Region: New England
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Posts: 1993
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quote:
Originally posted by Drago:
At worst we should be equal. If a mid pack car is pulling me on the straights when my car is right, I feel within 99% certainity there is compliance issue.

Ha! I love it! Even the big guys have the "If he's faster than me he must be cheating attitude!"

Maybe he's slower in and faster out. Maybe that's not the best for laptimes, but he's fast in a few places and slow in others.

Come on man ... 99%. Maybe 50%.

-Kyle

Jerret Gerber
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Year : 1996
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But to add to that sometimes us midpack guys do come out of corner good and the usual front runners still blow us away even if they come out terrible such the case at the kettle when gorrian spun on first lap and passed 6-7 cars up main straight following me to turn 14, I looked like I spun out and had to recover but didnt spin had my fastest lap at RA ever 2.46.7 in a 95 miata. All I'm saying is that sometimes midpack cars can get a good run just like the front runner, just not as consistant as the front runners and I think thats why people whine. They are not consistant so they automatically say someone has a huge advantage.Another thing is that some of them midpack cars are prepped good just the drivers make more mistakes than the usual front cars. But i have seen front cars go off track several time and still go to the front without batting an eye. Thats what discourages most. I dont care what happens amature racing is what this is we must remeber that, we spend more than what we get back. Spent over 20 grand on crash damage and tires over the last 2 yrs. Crash being the kettle that tore the front of car off.

Dwayne Hoover Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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quote:
Originally posted by davew:

Mike sleeps with the GCR. I don't always agree with his interpritation, but he knows what it says. And writes paper to prove it.

Dave

Sleeping with the GCR and screwing it against its will are two different things!

Then again, Mike is from DC [Big Grin]

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Visit the Midland City Arts Festival!

Drago Verified Driver Made Donation to Website Series Champ
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quote:
Originally posted by disquek:
quote:
Originally posted by Drago:
At worst we should be equal. If a mid pack car is pulling me on the straights when my car is right, I feel within 99% certainity there is compliance issue.

Ha! I love it! Even the big guys have the "If he's faster than me he must be cheating attitude!"

Maybe he's slower in and faster out. Maybe that's not the best for laptimes, but he's fast in a few places and slow in others.

Come on man ... 99%. Maybe 50%.

-Kyle

Kyle
I was being polite, I was thinking 99.9%. [Wink]

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Jim Drago
East Street Auto Salvage
jdrago1@aol.com
2006-2007 Mid-West Division
07,09 June Sprints Champion

EAST STREET RACING

guest driver
Member

Region: 011
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Year : 94
Posts: 488
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quote:
Originally posted by Todd Lamb:
+2

...and to add to Drago's point from before. The front pack guys are there because they either 1) do have the HP or 2) do have the corner speed. Or maybe both. So In these momentum cars when a front-pack car gives another front running car a serious shootout down a straightaway something usually is awry.

there, fixed that for ya [Big Grin]
just putting things back on topic after almost 500 posts ... at issue here ain't the mid pack guys, cause they dont know fancied up ECU's or squished FPR's ...
but, unlike the "front pack" guys, if they do have unprotected sex with their GCR's, they allways end up catching the dreaded STD's like "D.Q." or "Susp."
Front pack guys must just know where to buy the good condoms ... and they ain't made out of "writing paper".
[Wink]

disquek Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Region: New England
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But I thought that SM's reputation for cheater cars and contact was all propaganda? [Wink]

-Kyle

Muda Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
ComingToAMirrorNearYou

Region: WDC
Car #: #23
Year : 1991
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Godwin's gotta be right around the corner. [Wink]

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Muda Motorsports
"We're all here 'cause we're not all there."

Rich Verified Driver
Oh, that's where that is.

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quote:
Originally posted by Drago:
Kyle
I was being polite, I was thinking 99.9%. [Wink]

I'm with stupid.

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Rich Wiese

Spec Wrecker Ford

 
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