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Author Topic: Modified ECU/Computer
Jamie Tucker Series Champ

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What Tom Said!

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2010 ARRC Champion
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Drago Verified Driver Made Donation to Website Series Champ
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quote:
Originally posted by Willie the Tard:
quote:
Originally posted by Danny Steyn:
plus a bunch of EXTRAORDINARY WHINERS who moan and groan at the slightest change of status quo.

I also whine about no change in the status quo [Smile]
You whine just to hear yourself whine. [Big Grin] [Eek!] [Big Grin] [burst]

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Jim Drago
East Street Auto Salvage
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2006-2007 Mid-West Division
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EAST STREET RACING

David de Regt Verified Driver
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You can do a plug and play megasquirt box on the Miata for far less than 1200$...

Also, please oh please god let's keep political discussion out of this particular forum. Some of us god-hating liberals in the northwest really don't want to get into it with the rest of y'all. [Smile]

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Mark de Regt Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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quote:
Originally posted by davew:
It is the rules makers job to write a set of rules that are clear and well defined. And to modify those rules as needed. In regards to the modified ECU issue. We have a clear rule, no mods allowed. Now the rules makers need to modify the rules to fit a new environment. That is what the SMAC and others are trying to do.

Dave, I said this in my earlier emails to you, but it bears repeating in the context of your statement I've quoted above.

Any rule that cannot be enforced fairly and conclusively is worse than no rule. It is the rules makers' job not only to make clear rules, but to make rules that can be enforced without uncertainty.

Rules that are left to the individual's honor, in a world with precious little honor, only serve to help those without honor. That's a lousy result. I'd rather pay $1200 for an ECU that I know keeps my car even than be left with the choice of either (i) obeying rules without teeth or (ii) cheating to stay even.

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FOR THE LAST TIME...
IF WE DID NOT HAVE A WAY TO ENFORCE THE RULE 100 %, WE WOULD NOT BE PROPOSING IT!!! PLEASE READ THAT OUT LOUD 10X BEFORE POSTING QUESTIONS REGARDING IT.

Now, if I was made SM rules king for the day ( as many of you incorrectly suspect I am) [Wink] and I decided to make remapped ECU's or after market ECUS legal today. They would not become legal for use until Jan 1, 2011. The BOD has a rules Season now. We can make comp adjustments during the year, but not rules changes. So even if that was what we felt was best, we have this year to deal with. We have a rule, we will enforce it. take your chances. We can't enforce it any way [Wink]
Jim

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Jim Drago
East Street Auto Salvage
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2006-2007 Mid-West Division
07,09 June Sprints Champion

EAST STREET RACING

Tom Sager Made Donation to Website
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quote:
Originally posted by David de Regt:
You can do a plug and play megasquirt box on the Miata for far less than 1200$...

Also, please oh please god let's keep political discussion out of this particular forum. Some of us god-hating liberals in the northwest really don't want to get into it with the rest of y'all. [Smile]

Chicken shyt.

Tvance13
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+ 1 on open ECU.

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This says it all
"in a world with precious little honor"

At this point the emails are pointing overwhelmingly towards an open ECU rule. I will summarize at the end of the week.

Just remember that all us "shop owners on the SMAC" will make a profit selling, installing and dyno testing all these aftermarket ECUs. Remember also, that all us "SMAC members who own shops" do the SMAC part for free. Just want to be transparent with everyone.

Keep those emails coming. I prefer emails to PMs

Dave

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Muda Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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If you gave 1.8's an open ECU wouldn't you have to make the restrictor plate about 27mm to equalize the performance with a 1.6? Or would the ps floor support another 150 lbs (plus the last 25lb gift that most 1.6's can't make now)?

So by manipulating timing and fuel maps they get to maximize torque off the corners and horsepower down the straights. What do we get? Squat! So now we need a lightened flywheel, cams and timing and open head to keep up?

Where will it end? We will take over ITA/S!

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Muda Motorsports
"We're all here 'cause we're not all there."

Sean Yepez Verified Driver
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Edit: I voiced my support for an aftermarket ECU via e-mail instead.

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2008 San Francisco Region SMT Champion

Tvance13
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Muda - It would seem that those that are already running the trick or remapped or whatever ECU are already realizing those gains. You are likely racing that same car right now anyway. Why not get them all going the same speed and penalize accordingly.

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Kyle Freiheit
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I agree with Drago.

If its guarenteed policeable then leave the ecus alone.

DaveW,
Even if we did go to an OPEN ecu, SPEC ecu is a better word, then we would be going to a SPEC map which means that none of the builder/owners on the SMAC would make money tuning etc. It would be specd and sealed.

Kyle

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I mean, to be honest, I'd rather go open ECU than sealed. Sealed ECU means we still end up futzing with the AFM and intakes and all this other garbage. If we could actually tune, then we don't need all this AFM-tweaking nonsense. It's such a royal pain to deal with that tuning that crap, I'd vastly vastly prefer just being able to blast down a timing/fuel map and get it all right.

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Mark de Regt Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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quote:
Originally posted by Kyle Freiheit:
If it's guaranteed policeable then leave the ecus alone.

I agree, but I do take issue with the hypothesis. Nothing about "we'll look at the ECU, and if we think there's been soldering, we'll nail you" makes me believe either (i) they can catch enough of the sophisticated cheaters to eradicate the cheating, or (ii) they won't "catch" innocent people with fourth-hand ECUs that aren't different from stock, but may have been soldered to save a nickle sometime in the past 20 years.

Absent being satisfied that there is an effective method of enforcing the rule, we should either have open ECUs or sealed ECUs. And, upon reflection, open ECUs likely will cause less hassle with enforcement in the long run.

Jamie Tucker Series Champ

ARRC 2010 Champ

Region: CFR
Car #: 97
Year : 1990/99
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quote:
Originally posted by Drago:
FOR THE LAST TIME...
IF WE DID NOT HAVE A WAY TO ENFORCE THE RULE 100 %, WE WOULD NOT BE PROPOSING IT!!! PLEASE READ THAT OUT LOUD 10X BEFORE POSTING QUESTIONS REGARDING IT.

Now, if I was made SM rules king for the day ( as many of you incorrectly suspect I am) [Wink] and I decided to make remapped ECU's or after market ECUS legal today. They would not become legal for use until Jan 1, 2011. The BOD has a rules Season now. We can make comp adjustments during the year, but not rules changes. So even if that was what we felt was best, we have this year to deal with. We have a rule, we will enforce it. take your chances. We can't enforce it any way [Wink]
Jim

Damn Drago don't start crying on us. [Eek!] Seriously though do you think it is worth the time to enforce something that will only stop a few people, at a few races from doing? All it will do is keep the people who don't know how to get around it from using it while others continue to have an advantage. You were at Sebring. Who did not have a computer? Dave said the front runners had them but truth be known I know of at least 8 cars that had them (and no not all were bought from JD) There were another 3 that had moded MAF, Fuel pressure. I understand what your saying about not being able to change the rules for this year but you can easily decide not to develop ways to check for it which would do the same thing until the rules can be changed. That way all of the 1.6, 1.8s , and 99s that are running others things to accomplish the same goal will not have an advantage. NOW SAY AFTER ME 10X!!! OPEN ECUS ALLOW FOR LESS CHEATING AND WILL ALLOW THE CARS TO BE COMPARED ON EQUAL FOOTING [Smash] Yes the 99s would have to be slowed a little but that is ok because it would allow for more competition at the front and eliminate one more variable. And for those that don' [Smile] t know, I have a 99.

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David de Regt Verified Driver
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When you have spec ECUs, it's basically just like our ECUs now, where we end up tweaking all the associated sensors and anything remotely changeable to try to optimize our tune. Everyone ends up on the "guaranteed" same ECU, but everyone still cheats the other components, so we're basically back where we started.

If you open up the ECU, then everyone can actually tune their car to the actual max available power. No more screwing with sensors, no more compromising sections of your power curve for better other sections, no more track-specific tunes, because there's no advantage to it anymore.

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Jamie Tucker Series Champ

ARRC 2010 Champ

Region: CFR
Car #: 97
Year : 1990/99
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quote:
Originally posted by Muda:
If you gave 1.8's an open ECU wouldn't you have to make the restrictor plate about 27mm to equalize the performance with a 1.6? Or would the ps floor support another 150 lbs (plus the last 25lb gift that most 1.6's can't make now)?

So by manipulating timing and fuel maps they get to maximize torque off the corners and horsepower down the straights. What do we get? Squat! So now we need a lightened flywheel, cams and timing and open head to keep up?

Where will it end? We will take over ITA/S!

The maps out there using the stock ECU do not allow for that type of fine tuning. But the 99s (which I own) would have to do something to get slowed down a little but it is easier to do if you know what we have. Like it or not you are already racing against people with ECUs in many different years including the 1.6. At least with an open ECU the 1.6s will be able to benefit. Right now they get nothing.

--------------------
2010 ARRC Champion
2010 CFR Champion
2010 instigator of the year
2010/2011 Andrew Von C Wingman

Jamie Tucker Series Champ

ARRC 2010 Champ

Region: CFR
Car #: 97
Year : 1990/99
Posts: 788
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quote:
Originally posted by Tvance13:
Muda - It would seem that those that are already running the trick or remapped or whatever ECU are already realizing those gains. You are likely racing that same car right now anyway. Why not get them all going the same speed and penalize accordingly.

Exactly! [Smile]

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2010 ARRC Champion
2010 CFR Champion
2010 instigator of the year
2010/2011 Andrew Von C Wingman

SAE113 Verified Driver
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quote:
Originally posted by Muda:
Where will it end? We will take over ITA/S!

Please no [shame] I don't want to race with you cheaters..
[Big Grin] J/K

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Steven Elicati
'92 Protege ITA#01
'94 Miata ITA#99

David de Regt Verified Driver
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quote:
Originally posted by SAE113:
Steven Elicati
'92 ITA protege #01
'94 ITA miata #99

See, even Steven wishes he were racing a 99.

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Sean Yepez Verified Driver
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quote:
Originally posted by David de Regt:
When you have spec ECUs, it's basically just like our ECUs now, where we end up tweaking all the associated sensors and anything remotely changeable to try to optimize our tune. Everyone ends up on the "guaranteed" same ECU, but everyone still cheats the other components, so we're basically back where we started.

If you open up the ECU, then everyone can actually tune their car to the actual max available power. No more screwing with sensors, no more compromising sections of your power curve for better other sections, no more track-specific tunes, because there's no advantage to it anymore.

Thank you. [thumbsup]

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2008 San Francisco Region SMT Champion

soupy
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If I have an ecu that does not match the published mapping and I flash it to match it, making it perfect. Have I now modified it illegally?

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Charlie Campbell
Race Engineering
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jj15ball
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When I heard about the proposed open suspension between years, I questioned the need not know about the bump steer issue. I'm not fast enough to notice yet. But, if we open the ECU's we need to get everyone on the same intake from the filter to the head! I'd rather have a MAF vs. a flapper door anyday. It takes a variable out of the equation. Or better yet, get everyone on the same drivetrain. Let the 1.6's and 94-97 upgrade to the 99' engine and ECU. Then we could eliminate the restrictor plates, spec a fuel map (which we can verify), and adjust the years with weights. We are already allowed to update to the newer transmission.

As a side note, I would have bought a 99' if I had known what it would cost in tuning and prep to get a 1.6 competitive. But the 1.6 was the right price at the time.

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Jason Ball

David de Regt Verified Driver
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If you spec fuel maps, people will tweak fuel pressure, injectors, etc. People will change whatever is available.

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Dennis Brown Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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I think this whole discussion is BS!

I appreciate the desire to stop people from cheating and to equalize the cars, but someone said in a post a long time ago that these are production cars not purpose built race cars.

I have both ECU's. I have a modified ECU that was modified when my first 94 was a pro spec miata I assume in the late 90's or early 2000's, JD may have some insight. I have several stock ECU's that vary on the dyno which I still do not fully understand. There is a variance of about 3hp between the several ECU's.

If we go to open ECU's then people will lean the cars to the point that they are popping engines. The one with the most money still wins.

If we don't open the ECU's then you get the natural variance of production crap.

As a person who is having to pony up the $1200 for a new diff I think anything that cost me more money because people are cheating pisses me off. People will always cheat so while we are at it I think we should start opening some transmissions.

I don't have the answer, but I do know that we either need to spec it all which includes fluids and quit this reactive BS and the accusations or we need to say if it passes tech shed it is legal. If you think someone is cheating then pay the money, don't make me pay.

Dennis

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I'm not convinced that the leaning it out to the point of popping engines is worth it on the miata engine. Does anyone here have enough experience tuning EMS'd NA miatas to know that, on a stock compression motor, the difference between a dangerously lean and a normally lean motor is more than half a horse or so? As a 1.6 driver, I know we already lean out our cars to a somewhat dangerous level for the sake of power so that we can also get the timing advance that we want.

Fundamentally, I'm less concerned with the 1/2hp someone might get by running an incredibly lean/dangerous map than I am with the 3-5hp that a cheater will have. And this is coming from the northwest/oregon region, where I really don't think we have any cheaters right now.

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cpdenis
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Claimer rule. If I claim it you have to swap yours out with me. No questions.

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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis Brown:
The one with the most money still wins.

Assuming equal driving skill, the one with the most money (and willingness to spend it on this activity) will always win. Nothing we can do will change that. Try buying a Runoffs-competitive car for even thrice what I paid for my car; you can't.

That said, if we can remove a significant advantage enjoyed enjoyed by those who cheat for an easily quantifiable and relatively small amount of money, I'm all for it.

Mark de Regt Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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quote:
Originally posted by cpdenis:
Claimer rule. If I claim it you have to swap yours out with me. No questions.

Two questions, actually: What's the claiming price? And what do you do with the cheater ECU once you've bought it from the cheater?

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I disagree the one with the most money wins. I think Lamb's car is still for sale... not many peeps can hop in it,do a couple of tests to get acclimated then start posting the results he has posted with it.

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All this has happened before, and will happen again

Mark de Regt Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Please note the "Assuming equal driving skill...." in my post....

But it is equally true that if you put a great driver in my car, he would not do as well as he does in the Runoffs-prepared-to-win car. Money does talk; I'm just hoping we can come up with one less way that it cheats.

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Certainly if anyone put in the time and hard work the Todd has put in to be the best there is a cost. It was not free. Money can be spent on many things.

I could switch cars with the top names and they are going to beat me with talent. So why are we worried about a couple of HP. If someone believes they can drive with the fastest and can't get there because they believe someone is cheating then put up the money to protest.

Am I wrong is assuming that there is nothing to stop someone from protesting an ECU today and having it sent off to verify that it is a factory spec.

Dennis

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There's no way under the current ruleset to verify the legality of many parts. ECUs are just one of many...

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cpdenis
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This may be very naive but here goes. Open ECU's but I get to claim the modified one for free. If he wants to go fast again he reflashes or modifies my old one (that's assuming he modified his originally). The new guy like me with no $600 to spend on an ECU gets his for free or stays with the one he has. Eventually the haves stop financing the have nots and quit modifying.

David de Regt Verified Driver
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I kinda like the claimer open ECU idea, but it needs an appropriate price. Plug and play MS is 700$, add a couple hours tuning, 1000$. 1000$ claimer rule. Then you can buy a new one for 700$ and throw your tunes back on for free and get 300$ while some other guy has your megasquirt that he thought you cheated up for 300$ too much.

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Mark de Regt Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Claiming rules are always interesting on the surface, but I'm not at all convinced they really work. We have a class in these parts that has a motor claiming rule, to stop pro motors, but reliable sources indicate that much chicanery goes on anyway; who wants to spend almost $3000 to find out?

You can't have a free claimer. The minimum price would be what a new one would cost from Mazda. How sure are you going to have to be before you're willing to pay that much to find out?

David de Regt Verified Driver
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I was actually being sarcastic with my post. With open ECUs, not much point in claiming. You can get near maximum benefit from 700$ of equipment, not much point in spending any more than that, nor really any way to cheat anymore on the electronics side of things.

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Gatoratty Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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All of this makes me sick. [blush]
I agree with Dave that this site is read by thousands, but only a few post. CFR is the largest racing region in SCCA and yet only a few post on this site or others. SMAC should understand that most of the posts on this site do not necessarily reflect the opinion of the majority of drivers.

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Paul McLester

Mark de Regt Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Is Central Florida wired for internet?

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Sometimes I wonder!
Opinion email sent.

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Paul McLester

Terry Whitlock Verified Driver
Member

Region: BUCCANEER
Car #: 23 SSM, 36 SM
Year : 1992, 1990
Posts: 136
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I agree with Paul that many of those posting on this site are not reflecting the views of the majority of the drivers in the class. Those at the front end of the field tend to forget that many of those running in SM came to it because they perceived it to be a great entry level class with the lowest budget requirement. Those who wish to continue to escalate the cost of the class should in my view move on to Production racing or at least compete at the National level. I had hopes that SM could not follow the path of many classes that have died due to cost escalation. Perhaps the SSM route will still be a viable place for new and low budget racers. During my 35+ years of SCCA racing I have seen this scenario numerous times and suspect that you will not like the outcome.

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Terry Whitlock

Mark de Regt Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Region: NWR/Oregon; ICSCC
Car #: 70
Year : 1991
Posts: 1111
Status: Offline
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Terry, I'm curious. Whom do you see advocating escalating the cost of the class unnecessarily?

The reality is that the cost has already escalated. You can participate or not, as with many walks of life, but pretending that the status quo is nirvana isn't going to change the fact that there are problems that need to be addressed, and that any solution will involve significant expenditures for those who want to keep up with the arms race.

Note that "significant" isn't even the cost of one race weekend, entering two classes and staying in a hotel.

Gatoratty Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Region: Central Florida
Car #: 3
Year : 1992
Posts: 1304
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Mark

For some people $1200 is three race weekends (CFR prices).....and for some people that is a race season. If people want to cheat(any type i.e. plate, ecu, head) then use the three strike rule. First time-probation; second time-suspension; and if they are stupid enough to get caught a third time-life ban. People should race in another club if they want to cheat to win.

Allow cheated heads, next ECU's....where do you stop.....EP!

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Paul McLester

Mark de Regt Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
Veteran Member

Region: NWR/Oregon; ICSCC
Car #: 70
Year : 1991
Posts: 1111
Status: Offline
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Paul, I am all in favor of nailing cheaters. The only issue, in this case, is that there seems to be no good way to reliably nail cheaters, and only cheaters.

If you're going to have a rule, it means something only if it can be enforced; we know we can't rely on people's sense of honor and fair play. If there's a reasonable, effective way to enforce the "stock ECU only" rule, that would be a wonderful revelation. But so far, all I've heard is that the more sophisticated cheaters cannot be caught.

If that's the case, that's a horrible situation. So something has to be done. To me, that means either truly sealed, single-source ECUs, or open ECU.

If, indeed, all cheaters can and will be caught, without innocents being pulled in by the same net, then it would be nice if that were not kept secret.

And not that it's relevant, but open ECU would cost no more than $700, and probably less. Anyway, how do you do a weekend for $400? Hell, tires, gas and brakes would cost that, not even including entry fee, getting there and back, eating, and sleeping.

CP Verified Driver
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Region: NER
Car #: 7
Year : 1999
Posts: 636
Status: Offline
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Carefully put all ECUs into 3 buckets after regional/national qualifying: a 1.6 bucket, 1.8 bucket and a 99 bucket. Then each driver picks an ECU at random from his respective bucket to run for the race and keeps it until his/her next race weekend. Repeat this process for the entire season. Then my broke ass has a chance of getting an expensively doctored ECU on any given race weekend.

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-Cy
Supported by LTD Racing & Speed Shack - New England's Premier Auto Accessory Store
Rt1 AutoMile - Norwood, MA
http://www.speedshackonline.com

Mark de Regt Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
Veteran Member

Region: NWR/Oregon; ICSCC
Car #: 70
Year : 1991
Posts: 1111
Status: Offline
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Dreaded duplicate post

John@P1 Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Region: Metro NY
Car #: 09
Year : 1991
Posts: 423
Status: Offline
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quote:
Originally posted by Lance Snyder:
I disagree the one with the most money wins. I think Lamb's car is still for sale... not many peeps can hop in it,do a couple of tests to get acclimated then start posting the results he has posted with it.

If you think your buying the car as it "rolled of the track" think again. No offense Todd.

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John C. Kuitwaard
Team Principal/Driver
www.P1-MotorSports.com
www.Owater.com
www.AlexsLemonade.org

Jeff Clark Verified Driver
Member

Region: Oregon
Car #: 07, 74
Year : 1991
Posts: 125
Status: Offline
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[Mad]
Claiming rules are always interesting on the surface, but I'm not at all convinced they really work. We have a class in these parts that has a motor claiming rule, to stop pro motors, but reliable sources indicate that much chicanery goes on anyway; who wants to spend almost $3000 to find out?

You can't have a free claimer. The minimum price would be what a new one would cost from Mazda. How sure are you going to have to be before you're willing to pay that much to find out?

Prove It!

Want to trade cars anytime!!!

PS this has worked before ask Ken!!

Chris Haldeman
Member

Region: texas
Car #: 71,72
Year : 1990,1999
Posts: 166
Status: Offline
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you can flame me if you want this is what i think.i am new to this class but i know this.people cheat in racing many ways most winners dont!this kind of rules changes will kill this class as will all of the crying about cheating.the proposed rule change to allow open ecu's will only help the 99's and hurt the already slower cars thus helping to ruin spec miata.all this class will be is ita running bad tires and marginal shocks.i just watched a race in houston this weekend have 1 of every year in the top 5 and have only 3 seconds a lap between first and last.how important can cheating be?let the cheaters cheat and just go racing.

Jeff Clark Verified Driver
Member

Region: Oregon
Car #: 07, 74
Year : 1991
Posts: 125
Status: Offline
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Damn,

Mark

"Claiming rules are always interesting on the surface, but I'm not at all convinced they really work. We have a class in these parts that has a motor claiming rule, to stop pro motors, but reliable sources indicate that much chicanery goes on anyway; who wants to spend almost $3000 to find out?"

Lets trade!!!!

 
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