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Author Topic: Modified ECU/Computer
pat slattery Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Does it really matter if we get "the" best file, as long as its the same file on everyone's car, that is what is important to me.

Pat Slattery

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keeping the faith for the 1.6

Arrow Karts

Drago Verified Driver Made Donation to Website Series Champ
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pat, not sure I am a proponent of the spec ecu. But if we spec one, I think it make sense to spec a good one. If we can eliminate or limit the gains over the "spec" box, the gains and desire to get more will be eliminated as well.
I think this is last resort. We feel pretty confident of detection right now, but like anything else, less teh help of community and protests, this will ALWAYS be a problem.
Jim

[ 02-17-2010, 12:51 PM: Message edited by: Drago ]

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Jim Drago
East Street Auto Salvage
jdrago1@aol.com
2006-2007 Mid-West Division
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EAST STREET RACING

Jason Holland Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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quote:
Originally posted by jmac36:
Jason, you say that as if it were something bad?

Joe,

I don't really care to be honest but in my view you ARE facilitating cheating. But so are many others. either way... eh.

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Jason Holland
Semi-interested civilian

B Wilson Verified Driver Series Champ
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quote:
Originally posted by Jason Holland:
quote:
Originally posted by jmac36:
Jason, you say that as if it were something bad?

Joe,

I don't really care to be honest but in my view you ARE facilitating cheating. But so are many others. either way... eh.

Which is why they should NOT be speced, but read when a protest is filed. Thanks for all the hard work SMAC.

-bw

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Bruce Wilson
2010 Oregon Region Champ
2010 Monte Shelton Driver of the Year
2010 25 Hours of Thunderhill E3 and Under 2 liter Overall Champion
Oregon Region SM Class Advisor

pat slattery Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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quote:
Originally posted by Drago:
pat, not sure I am a proponent of the spec ecu. But if we spec one, I think it make sense to spec a good one. If we can eliminate or limit the gains over the "spec" box, the gains and desire to get more will be eliminated as well.
I think this is last resort. We feel pretty confident of detection right now, but like anything else, less teh help of community and protests, this will ALWAYS be a problem.
Jim

Agreed Jim, I was refering to"if" we had to resort to a sealed ECU. Detection would be the best if we can depend on the technology.

PAt

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jmac36
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quote:
Originally posted by Jason Holland:
quote:
Originally posted by jmac36:
Jason, you say that as if it were something bad?

Joe,

I don't really care to be honest but in my view you ARE facilitating cheating. But so are many others. either way... eh.

Again, you can use that same logic with the distillers and the folks that make guns. I build them, how you use them is your business. Do you suggest that I quit remaping PCMs for all Miatas, of should I suspend the 99-2005 only?

Zauskycop Verified Driver
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How about this jmac. All your ECU's that you reprogram, be proud of! Repaint the boxes a nice color, mark them really well that they can't be missed! Make them fancy, make them bling. If they are just for a street car, they will probably never be seen. If they are for a race car that the ECU is open, fine...they look nice. But if they are for a SM that it is ILLEGAL, then it will be easy to detect.

Reprogramming the ECU isn't illegal...have at it. But having nice, undetectable, soldering jobs, not marking the ECU case, not making the reprogram job easily detected, is facilitating cheating.

It's not like making the gun, but it IS like selling, holding it, pointing it, and having someone else pull the trigger....then screaming you didn't do the crime.

JMHO...

Tracy Ramsey
Team Blenderblaster

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Tracy Ramsey
Team Blenderblaster

jmac36
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Well now that you ask, our reflashed boxes ARE MARKED. And infact are very easy to spot, IF the person who bought it does not remove the paint, and the label.

"It's not like making the gun, but it IS like selling, holding it, pointing it, and having someone else pull the trigger....then screaming you didn't do the crime."
And again, why is this my problem?

And BTW, how do you suggest I vett the folks who buy these? I have had some of the best known spec miata guys call up in the past few months useing third party names and addresses.

David de Regt Verified Driver
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Like he said, if you don't want a smoking gun sitting on your desk, make custom cases and mounting mechanisms for all the ECUs so the boards can't be swapped. Also, stop cleaning up your solder joints so perfectly. Legal customers won't care, since they don't mind having the ECU look weird under their passenger side carpet, nor will they mind ugly solder joints, as long as it works.

I'm sorry, are you having fun ignoring the obvious -- that you're making money off cheaters? You know, I almost respected you when you first showed up here and were talking about how this is how it was and you were okay with that. Then you started backpedalling going "oh no, I'm not helping cheaters." Accept that your business is helping cheaters and live with the consequences. Anything else is just _sad_.

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Keith in WA Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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I see his point. I don't know of any engine builder that does a background check before a port and polish or a bored out block. The customer orders what they want. The builder does the work. The customer is responsible for the use.

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Keith Novak
(Will work for tires)

David de Regt Verified Driver
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There's a difference between an engine builder who does standard work (P&P and the like is just standard issue on machine work) without making sure that it's not going into a race car where it's illegal and someone who takes stock ECUs and their entire business is flashing the stock ECU to another flash and covering their tracks to make the modified ECU look identical to stock.

That said, if you ask any engine builder, they'll happily admit to you, "yeah, some of my customers are cheaters. Don't care." This guy, on the other hand says, "it's not me, it's the one armed man!"

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jmac36
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quote:
Originally posted by Keith in WA:
I see his point. I don't know of any engine builder that does a background check before a port and polish or a bored out block. The customer orders what they want. The builder does the work. The customer is responsible for the use.

Thank you!

jmac36
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quote:
Originally posted by David de Regt:
Like he said, if you don't want a smoking gun sitting on your desk, make custom cases and mounting mechanisms for all the ECUs so the boards can't be swapped. Also, stop cleaning up your solder joints so perfectly. Legal customers won't care, since they don't mind having the ECU look weird under their passenger side carpet, nor will they mind ugly solder joints, as long as it works.

I'm sorry, are you having fun ignoring the obvious -- that you're making money off cheaters? You know, I almost respected you when you first showed up here and were talking about how this is how it was and you were okay with that. Then you started backpedalling going "oh no, I'm not helping cheaters." Accept that your business is helping cheaters and live with the consequences. Anything else is just _sad_.

I have no illusions that the pcms we build are not being used in spec miata. But again, its not my issue. I'm more than willing to help you guys figure out a fix, and in fact have offered to seal the boxes at cost to make this a non issue. I have been talking to smac, and the crb about what can be done to fix it.

What more can I do? I'm not going to close my business because you got your ballon burst about what is and is not being run in this class.

BTW, whats sad is all the back the fact that if you look around, you will see that there is a very clear line on this issue. On one side are the guys in 99s, and on the other are the 1.6 crowd.

Teamfour Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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I don't know jmac and he doesn't need my defense, but I did contact him to get more info on the ECUs, the process, to get one, and cost. I was open with the fact that I was an SM owner.

He politely advised me to hold off making any ECU replacements/tweaks until the issue was resolved. He could have easily taken my money.

BTW, my inquiry was purely fact finding IN CASE I had to go down the ECU road. I have enough costs as it is and really prefer we stay with stock ECUs.

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Lee Tilton
1993 Meowta #04
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Team Four Racing

oem steve
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+1 David, I for one find it sad that people would even go after that kind of work under the guise of "tech shed legal" then sit back and go "what I didn't know they were going to actually use it". Has me contemplating trying out for the U.F.C. then at least I'll know where I'm getting beat from.

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Under powered and under driven

Blake Clements Verified Driver Series Champ
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So Fidanza sells a light flywheel, are you guys going to harass them too?

I keep noticing the same "sky is falling" post from the SAME people on every issue. Don't you think your opinion might lose credibility if you constantly complain?

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Blake Clements

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David de Regt Verified Driver
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oem steve: Tech shed legal Steroids. [yep]

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David de Regt Verified Driver
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Blake: The flywheel is visually techable. [Smile]

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B Wilson Verified Driver Series Champ
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JM, you are way to proud of what you are doing for anyone here to give a crap about a free enterprise discussion.

Please tell us more about how bad our class is screwed up.

-bw

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Bruce Wilson
2010 Oregon Region Champ
2010 Monte Shelton Driver of the Year
2010 25 Hours of Thunderhill E3 and Under 2 liter Overall Champion
Oregon Region SM Class Advisor

oem steve
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yeh David what was I thinking its everywhere.

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Under powered and under driven

jmac36
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you know its funny Blake, I seem to recall the smae bitching when pro built motors were new.

Blake Clements Verified Driver Series Champ
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quote:
Originally posted by David de Regt:
Blake: The flywheel is visually techable. [Smile]

And the ECU isn't? It all hinges on the word PROTEST.

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Blake Clements

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guest driver
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quote:
Originally posted by jmac36:

As far as being the only source for the sealing, no, but we did design and build the hardware and software to do the boxes without opening , and thats the whole key. Anyone can read and copy the files, if they can open the box. [/QB]

i suggest you all re read what the man said and understand what is going on here ...
"to do the boxes without opening"
and please, enough righteous B.S. about him facilitating "cheating", racers cheat, not builders or suppliers.
What soldering ? that's strictly for amateurs, only the low budget guys will ever be caught ...
i will stop here - i can hear da warden coming
[Wink]

David de Regt Verified Driver
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quote:
Originally posted by Blake Clements:
quote:
Originally posted by David de Regt:
Blake: The flywheel is visually techable. [Smile]

And the ECU isn't? It all hinges on the word PROTEST.
That's kinda the whole point here, I thought... Unless someone's hiding a megasquirt inside their stock ECU box, the problem with the reflash ecus is that they're completely non-visually-techable (with a few terribly-soldered exceptions)...

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oem steve
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So Fidanza sells a light flywheel, are you guys going to harass them too?


I think if they were disguising it to look, feel, taste ,smell or whatever as a factory flywheel then yes that would be a problem, this all just goes back to guys trying to find an advantage over the other competitors, its not a case of cheated up parts its a case of people who don't have a concious and will do what ever it takes to win. I'm sure if we were racing soap box derby cars this same type of discussion would be going on, only a differant part. [soapbox]

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Under powered and under driven

Blake Clements Verified Driver Series Champ
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quote:
Originally posted by oem steve:
its not a case of cheated up parts its a case of people who don't have a concious and will do what ever it takes to win.

That is the point I'm try to get at. I would suggest that we attack those competitors, not the vendors that may or may not supply these items.

JMHO.

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Blake Clements

PhillipsRacePrep/SP Induction Systems/East Street Racing/MiataCage.com/Carbotech/WBR Graphics

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oem steve
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I agree even if the parts weren't readily available there would still be some back yard engineers finding ways around the tech shed, I applaud the efforts being made to find ways to police this I still think this is a great class to be in, and also feel that the higher ups will at least listen to us and are doing their best to address all the issues here [thumbsup]

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Under powered and under driven

Neil O Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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+1 Blake...

Let the SMAC do their job. If they figure out we can't tech the ecu then, we will need a new solution.

Jumping all over someone who's business happens to do something that is cheating in our little world is a joke.

His posts have shed some light on this situation, and I appreciate that.

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SM #06
http://www.columbiatile.com

B Wilson Verified Driver Series Champ
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A hero indeed [Big Grin]

Let the SMAC do their job, Agreed 100%

-bw

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Bruce Wilson
2010 Oregon Region Champ
2010 Monte Shelton Driver of the Year
2010 25 Hours of Thunderhill E3 and Under 2 liter Overall Champion
Oregon Region SM Class Advisor

Tom Scheifler Verified Driver Made Donation to Website Series Champ
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quote:
Originally posted by jmac36:
you know its funny Blake, I seem to recall the smae bitching when pro built motors were new.

Let's not just assume that everyone who denounces the cheating and the cheaters is a loon ...

Someone proved conclusively that lots of pro engine builders were blatantly cheating -- not just "paying attention to detail" and "taking advantage of gray areas". Was it wrong to complain about them? Were we all whiners for that? The people who say so are either looking to hide their own cheating behind a smokescreen or did not take time to understand just how bad it was or were intentionally ignorant to have plausible deniability.

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SeanH88
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Either way you side on this topic, you have to agree that jmac36 (sorry I dont know your name) is being honest and responsive and has offered to be part of the solution.

There is no reason to be disrespectful to a guy who is not hiding behind aliases or only addressing some of the questions.

Personally I don't care for cheated up ECU's, but he is a business owner trying to make a living and should not be castrated because he makes a part that a Racer is actively choosing to put in his or her car.

The racer is responsible for the legality of his or her own car. Not the parts supplier, not the builder, not the mechanic, the Racer.

Sean

Rich Verified Driver
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When I won at Blackhawk last year, nobody checked my ECU, but the Tech Geek Squad did have a scope so far up my Sunbelt's exhaust ports that I could feel a little pressure "down there."

Presumably they were looking for "gray area" on my exhaust valves, or maybe "white, oily discharge?"

I have been guilty of as much "that guy has beeeeg motah and I don't" as anyone (especially before kinetic-sunbelt put together my baby-seal clubbing, class-destroying engine), but at the end of the day I'm pretty sure I've never been beaten by anything but my own LOFT.

Burn the witches!!!

Buy my miata!

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Rich Wiese

Spec Wrecker Ford

David Dewhurst
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***Buy my miata!***

Naw, bring that baby seal with the Torsen to Road America & help the Dude prove that a 1.6 can podium at the Runoffs. [Big Grin]

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Have Fun [Wink]

David Dewhurst
CenDiv
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pat.ross
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If I drove my '99 Miata to work every day and could obtain an extra 5-10 hp by having the ECM reprogrammed for $300-$400 would I do it? You bet your sweet bippie. I have paid a lot more to have the ECM reprogrammed on my Lexus ISF hoping to get an additional 20-25 hp (unsuccessfully I might add). I think that the group is taking a very narrow view of what jmac36 does. He offers his services to all Miata owners, not just the limited number of Spec Miata owners. Those services are perfectly legal and honorable.

JMHO

Kent Carter Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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What we really have here is a battle between two forms of cheating up the 99's. One guy is making money off of Method 1 and one guy is making money off of Method 2. Keep yours eyes open...

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Do I turn my 99 Hard S into a killerfast SM or seek a donor?

jmac36
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quote:
Originally posted by pat.ross:
If I drove my '99 Miata to work every day and could obtain an extra 5-10 hp by having the ECM reprogrammed for $300-$400 would I do it? You bet your sweet bippie. I have paid a lot more to have the ECM reprogrammed on my Lexus ISF hoping to get an additional 20-25 hp (unsuccessfully I might add). I think that the group is taking a very narrow view of what jmac36 does. He offers his services to all Miata owners, not just the limited number of Spec Miata owners. Those services are perfectly legal and honorable.

JMHO

Pat, thank you and the others for the kind words! BTW, email me about that Lexi, we can give you that extra tq you wanted, and we offer SCCA discounts!

Willie the Tard Verified Driver
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quote:
Originally posted by David de Regt:
I'm sorry, are you having fun ignoring the obvious -- that you're making money off cheaters?

So jmac36 is the only one making money off cheaters? No he is just the only honest one -- far better than some who quitely supply parts from the inside

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William Keeling a.k.a. Willie the Tard

Willie the Tard Verified Driver
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quote:
Originally posted by David de Regt:
Blake: The flywheel is visually techable. [Smile]

is the 99 fuel pressure regulators visually techable? – is it even illegal? And the end result it the same, leaner air fuel mix and more power.

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William Keeling a.k.a. Willie the Tard

Willie the Tard Verified Driver
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quote:
Originally posted by Kent Carter:
What we really have here is a battle between two forms of cheating up the 99's. One guy is making money off of Method 1 and one guy is making money off of Method 2. Keep yours eyes open...

Just two?

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William Keeling a.k.a. Willie the Tard

CP Verified Driver
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How about the 99s that have diodes or whatever somewhere in the harness to fool the computer into not pulling timing...activated with the AC switch? How do you check for that, assuming that the switch isn't activated during the investigation?

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-Cy
Supported by LTD Racing & Speed Shack - New England's Premier Auto Accessory Store
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pat slattery Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Sounds like the 99 has a lot of loopholes in which to cheat on? [Confused]

pat

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keeping the faith for the 1.6

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Mike C Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Regulators are the least of our concern. We have a measuable spec. Get over it.

--------------------
Mike Collins
MEATHEAD Racing
http://www.SHEETZ.com
The MEATHEAD Racing 2010 Calendar is up!!!!
www.MEATHEADRacing.com
SMAC Member
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ALL OPINIONS ON RULES OR SPECIFICATIONS ARE JUST THAT, MY OPINIONS!

Drago Verified Driver Made Donation to Website Series Champ
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quote:
Originally posted by CP:
How about the 99s that have diodes or whatever somewhere in the harness to fool the computer into not pulling timing...activated with the AC switch? How do you check for that, assuming that the switch isn't activated during the investigation?

How do we check for a Nitrous tank hidden in the roll bars and activated by the AC switch. I think one check will catch both of these. [Roll Eyes]
If people want to cheat to that extent, truth is you are probably not going to catch them. We have volunteer tech staff, most are shoe salesman and accountants during the week, not tech guys. This is not Nascar or F1. If you think something is wrong, you protest.
Jim

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Jim Drago
East Street Auto Salvage
jdrago1@aol.com
2006-2007 Mid-West Division
07,09 June Sprints Champion

EAST STREET RACING

CHIP VAN 01
WHO NEEDS EXIT SPEED WHEN YOU HAVE HORSEPOWER !!!!!

Region: FL REG
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The nitrous is in the cool shirt box [Cool] [Cool] and is turned on with the cruise control switch it is easier to reach [Roll Eyes] [Roll Eyes] [Roll Eyes]

--------------------
www.AutoTechnikRacing.com

2010 SM NATIONAL POINTS CHAMPION
( I kicked Von C's A$$ )
2008 , 2009 and 2010 SE Division National SM Champion

Rich Verified Driver
Oh, that's where that is.

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quote:
Originally posted by Drago:
We have volunteer tech staff, most are shoe salesman ... not tech guys. This is not Nascar or F1. If you think something is wrong, you protest.
Jim

Volante is a tech inspector now? I knew he bought a formula car, but I was pretty sure he didn't know how to use a wrench?!

--------------------
Rich Wiese

Spec Wrecker Ford

Drago Verified Driver Made Donation to Website Series Champ
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quote:
Originally posted by Rich:
quote:
Originally posted by Drago:
We have volunteer tech staff, most are shoe salesman ... not tech guys. This is not Nascar or F1. If you think something is wrong, you protest.
Jim

Volante is a tech inspector now? I knew he bought a formula car, but I was pretty sure he didn't know how to use a wrench?!
He does know shoes though! [Eek!]

[ 02-19-2010, 02:07 PM: Message edited by: Drago ]

--------------------
Jim Drago
East Street Auto Salvage
jdrago1@aol.com
2006-2007 Mid-West Division
07,09 June Sprints Champion

EAST STREET RACING

Jeremy Pike
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quote:
We have volunteer tech staff, most are shoe salesman and accountants during the week, not tech guys.Jim [/QB]
I thought I saw Al Bundee sittin in the tech shed with his hand down his pants.

Mike C Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Pike:
quote:
We have volunteer tech staff, most are shoe salesman and accountants during the week, not tech guys.Jim

I thought I saw Al Bundee sittin in the tech shed with his hand down his pants.[/QB]
That was me....

--------------------
Mike Collins
MEATHEAD Racing
http://www.SHEETZ.com
The MEATHEAD Racing 2010 Calendar is up!!!!
www.MEATHEADRacing.com
SMAC Member
WDCR-SCCA SM Drivers Rep.
ALL OPINIONS ON RULES OR SPECIFICATIONS ARE JUST THAT, MY OPINIONS!

oem steve
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IMHO the only way to detect if there is an obvious discrepancy of horsepower would be with track data being available at the track itself. If you've got somebody obviously accelerating much faster than the rest of the field, lets say from turn 2 to 3 this should show up on say traqmate or aim. I just don't know if getting that info quickly is possible, and I know nobody wants to give it up either. It did however come into play at a track that I raced at last year.

--------------------
email: standrewsexpress@bellsouth.net
visit us at http://www.standrewsexpress.com

Under powered and under driven

Cajun Miata Man Verified Driver
Overdog Driver

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Year : 99
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So what if there is a HP difference? Does that automatically mean an illegal ECU is being run? You can't protest or DQ anyone for more HP.

--------------------
James York


sponsored by:
Stan's Auto Center, Lafayette LA
powered by:
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set up guru:
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