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Author Topic: Hubs Mazda VS Blueprinted
SHOEDOG
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Looking for advice on hubs.
I had a failure on my 99 3.5 hours into the 4 hour enduro at the Glen.The failure occured on new from Mazda with around 15-20 hours on them I serviced them with Redline grease at least twice and
they were done the day before the Enduro.
The cage was broken and the balls were distorted.
Now I am wondering are the blueprinted hubs better or should I just get new Mazda
What is done to blueprint them and are they worth the extra$
Thanks
Shoedog

Brian Ghidinelli Verified Driver
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If you replaced the grease twice in 15-20 hours on new mazda hubs, I would call that an unusual failure. Any chance you broke one of the retaining rings or something else putting it back together?

The blueprinted ones fail prematurely as well so it seems to be somewhat luck of the draw.

--------------------
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d mathias Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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No financial interest but I repacked my EastStreet (Drago) hubs before my last event after running them all season - and they still looked like they were fresh out of the box. I'm thinking I could have left them alone.

I'm sold.

SHOEDOG
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When you say retaining rings are you referring to the plastic cages the ball are held in by?
If so then no-I got them together fine and they slid right on.
Thanks

Brandon F. Verified Driver
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"Blueprinting" is a fancy term for R&R the plastic cage & balls, cleaning the whole shebang, and using a higher quality & quantity of grease on reassembly.

When my "new" used pair of hubs went bye-bye after my second school, I bit the bullet and picked up 4 new MSP hubs (and longer studs) and blueprinted them myself.

It's easy to do provided you don't break/lose any of the parts. [Wink]

If what you describe happened (broken/melted plastic rings, deformed balls) it sounds like either a damage incident (hit a leading edge of a rumble strip under braking - think heat coupled with high impact pressure) or too much torque on the hub nut itself (similar to above but generating a lot more heat constantly) would be the culprits. And no matter the brand of blueprinting would have kept the failure from occurring - IMHO. [Smile]

I was following someone's advice about torquing to 180 ft#'s but after having Chris Windsor work on my front-end this weekend, that may be a skosh too much in the end. Too much drag on that axle even w/o brakes being installed so keep that under consideration when you redo that hub.

Best of luck next year (if you're done for the season) and get yourself another hub and BP it yourself! [thumbsup]

HTH,
Brandon

fastbrewer
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I had repeated failures while using the red line Cv-2. Hubs would only last about 3 weekends.

I switched to a high moly Swepco grease and just finished my second season on those hubs untouched since Feb. 2009

I run fairly hard and am known to hit the curbs and be in the dirt at times as well!

FWIW

JIM DANIELS Verified Driver Made Donation to Website Series Champ
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Mazda hubs require you turn them with your hand to see if they spin, mine you blow on and they move.... lol

That was not usual for any hub, probably got contaminated somehow.

You can find my source in the classifieds, same company most shops use to resale.

--------------------
Jim Daniels

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quote:
Originally posted by JIM DANIELS:
Mazda hubs require you turn them with your hand to see if they spin, mine you blow on and they move.... lol

[Big Grin]
Jim
Didnt you read above? [Wink]

--------------------
Jim Drago
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point, shoot, like your driving.... [Wink]

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Jim Daniels

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Forgot this....

--------------------
Jim Daniels

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And still forgot... man finger......

http://vimeo.com/15788586

--------------------
Jim Daniels

MAZDARACERS.COM

Mike LL
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I did my son's hubs. When the car is on jack stands, the wind blowing can spin the wheels.
Well worth the time or the money.
Almost FREE HORSEPOWER.

--------------------
Mike Lliteras
Sponsor, Mechanic, Owner and Dad
NASA FL

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quote:
Originally posted by Mike LL:
I did my son's hubs. When the car is on jack stands, the wind blowing can spin the wheels.
Well worth the time or the money.
Almost FREE HORSEPOWER.

[yep]

--------------------
Jim Daniels

MAZDARACERS.COM

CP Verified Driver
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Mine never spin that freely after a repack with Redline Moly. Am I doing something wrong (time to switch to Swepco)?

--------------------
-Cy
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Brandon F. Verified Driver
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quote:
Originally posted by JIM DANIELS:
And still forgot... man finger......

http://vimeo.com/15788586

Smoke & mirrors, smoke & mirrors!
That's a hub nut with only 10#s of torque!

[Razz]

A nice demonstration of the differences between stock & any blueprinted hubs...

JIM DANIELS Verified Driver Made Donation to Website Series Champ
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quote:
Originally posted by Brandon F.:
quote:
Originally posted by JIM DANIELS:
And still forgot... man finger......

http://vimeo.com/15788586

Smoke & mirrors, smoke & mirrors!
That's a hub nut with only 10#s of torque!

[Razz]

A nice demonstration of the differences between stock & any blueprinted hubs...

What basis do you have for any of those comments? Both hubs are torqued to 90. What are you implying, that I'm lying on my site?

One in every crowd and folks wonder why the prep is held so secretive [Razz]

Video is from the builder who sells the most hubs to this community. Anyone else want to chime in [Big Grin]

--------------------
Jim Daniels

MAZDARACERS.COM

Brandon F. Verified Driver
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Not trying to imply anything, just being cheeky.

Someone has noted (via PM) that I am misconstruing between blueprinted & rebuilt which I had presumed to be interchangable.

Now I am curious to what is being done that enables such behavior though...as Jim asks: anyone else want to chime in?

Zauskycop Verified Driver
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Torqued to 90 lbs? That is well below stock numbers. Did I just pick up a little knowledge tidbit???

--------------------
Tracy Ramsey
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quote:
Originally posted by Zauskycop:
Torqued to 90 lbs? That is well below stock numbers. Did I just pick up a little knowledge tidbit???

Parlay..... torque specs are more like a guide......

we don't run the psi the tire guys say
we don't run the timing the mfg says
we don't run the a/f the mfg says
we hardly stick to anything actually

So, torque them just past any play and, like the brake adjusters, add to your check list for session prep.

Ain't nothing spec about a Spec Miata [Wink]

--------------------
Jim Daniels

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Brandon,

I'm pretty sure I started the blueprinted hub "thing" for SM. We use new hubs and replace the grease and the balls. In the years since I started I've learned quite a bit about the hubs. You can make one spin like the one in the video with a light oil. There is no way the one that is spinning so freely is built for an endurance race (with grease). It also says it's "REMed" which is really silly since the balls and the races are already polished.

Torque does not really matter past about 20 with regard to drag and heat build up. Final torque about 150# for best life. Part of my blueprinting process addresses this as well and I'm quite certain that I can keep my hubs going years.

Failure modes: Contamination, dinging the races with leads to fatigue.

Call me if you want more info or if I was confusing.

John Mueller Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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neat video

--------------------
Thanks,
John Mueller
NASA SM National Director
http://www.Weekend-Racer.com
#13 "Tiger Miata" - 2009 SoCal SSM Champion

JIM DANIELS Verified Driver Made Donation to Website Series Champ
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quote:
Originally posted by Karl:
Brandon,

I'm pretty sure I started the blueprinted hub "thing" for SM. We use new hubs and replace the grease and the balls. In the years since I started I've learned quite a bit about the hubs. You can make one spin like the one in the video with a light oil. There is no way the one that is spinning so freely is built for an endurance race (with grease). It also says it's "REMed" which is really silly since the balls and the races are already polished.

Torque does not really matter past about 20 with regard to drag and heat build up. Final torque about 150# for best life. Part of my blueprinting process addresses this as well and I'm quite certain that I can keep my hubs going years.

Failure modes: Contamination, dinging the races with leads to fatigue.

Call me if you want more info or if I was confusing.

LOL, yup Karl we never built hubs for our SS Miatas before you starting racing SM.... [Razz]

--------------------
Jim Daniels

MAZDARACERS.COM

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Get out the measuring stick....

--------------------
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Chris70 Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Peace on earth.
And happiness for all.
[Smile]

--------------------
"Talent is often perseverance in disguise"

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FYI, that video is WITH OUT any wheel bearing grease. Hence why they are spinning so freely. It shows the difference between a "worked" grease-less hub, and a used oem grease-less hub.

chrisp993 Verified Driver
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Anyone have a source for the hub ball bearings?

I think there might be two sizes?

Kent Carter Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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quote:
Originally posted by chrisp993:
Anyone have a source for the hub ball bearings?

I think there might be two sizes?

oops.

--------------------
Do I turn my 99 Hard S into a killerfast SM or seek a donor?

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I was just kidding and my old friend Karl knows that..... [Wink]

--------------------
Jim Daniels

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quote:
Originally posted by Kent Carter:
quote:
Originally posted by chrisp993:
Anyone have a source for the hub ball bearings?

I think there might be two sizes?

oops.
CHEATER Kent!

--------------------
If you can't fix it with a hammer, it's got electrical problems.

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The balls you want are steel and they sell for over $1 each, so over $22 per hub. Not sure ceramic would pass tech in SCCA.

The old 20 ball hubs did not need new balls. I have not seen any new 20 ball hubs though I'm told they exist.

Jim D. no argument with you. I assume you are not the one selling the hubs, other than me, are you? I told the SM community how to do their own years ago and started selling them to folks who did not want to mess with them. I've always told them, "it's up to you." A proud dad will be upset when someone else steps in a bit later with the same idea. The video misrepresents what a long lasting hub will do. Remember, I did this because the new OE hubs were only going about ten hours before failure. If you want a free rolling hub, clean it and use motor oil. I have no idea how long it will last on a car since I’ve only run one that way on the bench.

Do the test yourself. A new greaseless hub without ANY lubrication will not spin like the free spinning one in the video. The balls will chatter and it will stop. Even the smallest bit of dry or wet lube will stop the chatter and allow the bearing to spin. There is a difference between both hubs other than machine work added for the video. What that is I can only guess, but it is deceptive.

Compare two hubs, "worked" and good used (that can last more than 20 race hours,) after a race and you will not see such a difference.

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One more thing to remember. Grease will hold dirt. In small amounts this is a good thing since it will hold the dirt away from the contact points between the balls and races. Oil will allow the dirt to move. This is why I've never tried "oiled" hubs.

That said, it sounds like some have. I wonder if they will share their data? If we don't hear from them I'll set up a pair with oil and start running them in practice sessions and report back.

More food for thought: At 80 MPH each tire turns about 1200 RPM

If a cordless drill can spin a “greased” hub to that RPM what is there to gain? How many of you can turn laps within the time a super free hub might gain you?

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Karl,

How do you know what it represents for longevity? Before spreading mis-information about what is happening maybe you should understand how the process works. A simple google search on the internet will show several examples of the REM process and where it is used. F1, Nascar, Rolex, GAC, World Challenge, the list goes on and on. The FAA has even approved it for use in the aerospace industry.

The original video explains that the demonstration was done without a seal and without grease so that those viewing it could get an apples to apples comparison of what the REM process did to the parts without any variables to cloud the results. No machining, no smoke and mirrors.

True, ball bearings and races are very good pieces of metal to begin with, but the REM process goes to the molecular level and can clean the parts up even further.

After going to the REM Chemical website there are tons of industry white papers with scientific proven data on the benefits of how it works. Go there and see for yourself.

We could argue this all day long but instead lets look at facts and science and not tell everyone what your "expert" opinion is. Is it remotely possible that someone somewhere figured out something you did not?

--------------------
Jim Daniels

MAZDARACERS.COM

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And,

I've sold them (and lots of other items) for years privately and publicly starting this season. Due to the obvious economic difficulties I could not ignore the demand on my services. All but two SM Runoffs champs were loaded with JD inspiration, other classes too, you should know that.

Perhaps once this market turns back north I can again work quietly via word of mouth..... [Wink]

I say to everyone, buy your hubs and AFM then send them to me so I can make them better. Is easy that way because the parts are so clean and easy to work on [Big Grin] JK

--------------------
Jim Daniels

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I'm not saying REM does or does not work or improve the hub or no, but if that is their demo, then it could be more dramatic than it is in real life. I remember I showed a certain someone how much a pine derby car's axle chatters, and how quickly it stopped, and how nicely it does with a single drop of oil and how much farther it goes (tech shed legal haha!)

I would love to see a REM vs. non-REM version of the hub with: 1) oil, 2) grease at room temp, 3) grease at hot temp. Wet dream: a hub dyno showing static load for the 6 demos, and acceleration load from 0-1200RPM.

Yeah maybe 0.1HP or 0.25HP per hub here and there can be gained and that may be important to you top guys with the big egos (and KNOWING you have and advantage can be a big help even if it's small, I accept that), but for the rest of you guys on a budget and maybe still learning to drive (myself included)...think a little more scientifically and dig a little deeper. [Wink]

--------------------
"Your victory is tainted! Asterisk! Asterisk!!!"--Lisa Simpson

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quote:
Originally posted by Karl:
Not sure ceramic would pass tech in SCCA.


Not sure? Really?

--------------------
Jim Drago
East Street Auto Salvage
jdrago1@aol.com
2006-2007 Mid-West Division
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EAST STREET RACING

pat.ross
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After reading about the R.E.M process it appears to achieve similar results to electro polishing. Electro polishing uses high electrical currents in a ionized bath to remove peaks off of finished metals. When you look at a piece of stainless steel under an electron microscope the surface of the metal looks like the Alps. When the electro polishing is completed the surface looks like rolling hills. This greatly reduces friction. In the past we have used the electro polishing process in falling film evaporators to reduce the frictional drag of the wiper blades.

Pat

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quote:
Originally posted by pat.ross:
After reading about the R.E.M process it appears to achieve similar results to electro polishing. Electro polishing uses high electrical currents in a ionized bath to remove peaks off of finished metals. When you look at a piece of stainless steel under an electron microscope the surface of the metal looks like the Alps. When the electro polishing is completed the surface looks like rolling hills. This greatly reduces friction. In the past we have used the electro polishing process in falling film evaporators to reduce the frictional drag of the wiper blades.

Pat

I don't doubt its efficacy. My only question is that of quantification of the benefits.

--------------------
"Your victory is tainted! Asterisk! Asterisk!!!"--Lisa Simpson

Dusty Bottoms Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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quote:
Originally posted by Drago:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl:
Not sure ceramic would pass tech in SCCA.


Not sure? Really?
Worse stuff than ceramic ball bearings have passed tech even though everyone knew it wasn't right. [Big Grin]

--------------------
"Your victory is tainted! Asterisk! Asterisk!!!"--Lisa Simpson

Jamie Tucker Series Champ

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All I know is the this years runoffs winner had none of the above!

--------------------
2010 ARRC Champion
2010 CFR Champion
2010 instigator of the year
2010/2011 Andrew Von C Wingman

Karl Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Do you say:

I need to Hoover the carpet?
or
I need to vacuum the carpet?

REM = Hoover

Isotropic SuperFinish (ISF) = polishing process

...and it really does little more than speed up the process a bearing and gears will do to themselves in the right environment.

Both hubs on the video are used. With clean break in, a used hub will look like an ISFed hub at the contact points.

There is a difference between the two hubs on the video beyond the ISF process. In fairness to JD it may not be intentional.

A free market is good for all of us. Bad information is not. As I grow as a human being I might be less inclined to jump in when I see something that I believe would bother others, but to paraphrase Fletch...I am not that big a man!

While I'm at it. Is it okay to use:

JD = Jim Daniels (long standing) and
JDr = Jim Drago ? I was looking for something playful and informal. Like, I know and respect him and we are just having some fun. If so..

JDr, has anyone ever checked for ceramic balls? If not, they would seem to be passing tech. Perhaps not the way you thought I meant it? [Smile]

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Dusty...how do you manage to stay so clean yet still be directed?

Obfuscating style? Teach me please.

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How about thoughts on the amount of grease used? I found this picture on the internet. More, or less then pictured?

 -

Todd Lamb Verified Driver Made Donation to Website Series Champ
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quote:
Originally posted by Weekend Warrior:
Get out the measuring stick....

I think they're going to use the water displacement test....

--------------------
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Brandon F. Verified Driver
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quote:
Originally posted by Sean Allen:
How about thoughts on the amount of grease used? I found this picture on the internet. More, or less then pictured?

 -

I found less than that amount to be better. I followed that same process to do my first rebuild (see JD/JDr - I got it right this time! [Smile] ) and found a lot of grease/dirt collected on the inside of the wheels and the hub-facing edges of the spindle/caliper/caliper bracket.

Went with less in this last round and have significantly less grime all over.

Best of luck!
Brandon

d mathias Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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JD/JDr

I think we should abbreviate their names "F1" style.

DAN
DRA

To stay on topic - Brandon is right - too much grease and it gets spun out of the rear seal.

fastbrewer
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How do the rear bearings come apart?

There was talk of REMing them but to do that you'd have to disassemble?

Weekend Warrior Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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quote:
Originally posted by Todd Lamb:
quote:
Originally posted by Weekend Warrior:
Get out the measuring stick....

I think they're going to use the water displacement test....
Cold water? [Eek!]

--------------------
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Blake Clements Verified Driver Series Champ
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quote:
Originally posted by Karl:
Do you say:

I need to Hoover the carpet?
or
I need to vacuum the carpet?

It depends on what country you are from? [Wink]

--------------------
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Drago Verified Driver Made Donation to Website Series Champ
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quote:
Originally posted by Karl:
JDr, has anyone ever checked for ceramic balls? If not, they would seem to be passing tech. Perhaps not the way you thought I meant it? [Smile]

Kind of the same way a turbo would pass tech? [Wink] I didnt take it that way. If looked at or protested, no way that it passes tech. Chances of that happening 10000:1

--------------------
Jim Drago
East Street Auto Salvage
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EAST STREET RACING

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quote:
Originally posted by Weekend Warrior:
quote:
Originally posted by Todd Lamb:
quote:
Originally posted by Weekend Warrior:
Get out the measuring stick....

I think they're going to use the water displacement test....
Cold water? [Eek!]
no, cc'ing their heads
[duck]

 
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