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Author Topic: NASA and/or SCCA Spec change
John Mueller Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
Okay, not the slowest anymore...

Region: SoCal
Car #: 13
Year : 1992
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quote:
Originally posted by 'Strongbad':
I am with JD on this one.

Regional class only 1.6 (maybe even stock air box and mazda comp exhaust?). No parity issues just a fun starting point for budget minded racers.

Joseph Strong

Hmmm.... Sounds like where NASA SSM begins.

--------------------
Thanks,
John Mueller
NASA SM National Director
http://www.Weekend-Racer.com
#13 "Tiger Miata" - 2009 SoCal SSM Champion

cnj
Member

Region: SW Division
Car #: 32
Year : 1999
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quote:
Originally posted by guest driver:
no need for anyone with a 1.6 to spend a dime in response to the '99 concession, only comp adjustment needed is on the '99's;
add 39 mm plate
deduct 50 lbs

I am intrigued by this idea. In principle I am perfectly OK with less power in my 99 with an attendant weight reduction. The goal presumably would be to:

1. Lower the peak horsepower/torque of the 99's to more closely match the 95's and approach the 1.6's?
2. Reduce the weight disparity between the 3 versions? Now 95/99 would be similar in weight (25 lbs difference) and the 1.6 would still be somewhat lighter - however the cornering style would be more similar (good).

What is not clear to me is what would happen to the curve of power and torque and how this might flatten out (still give lots of low end grunt) versus simply lower the whole curve?

How did you come up with the 50 pound reduction and the 37mm plate suggestions? Have you or others done dyno testing? Have you or others done any track testing to check lap times or comparative car versions behavior? I don't ask this to be critical of your proposal or to ask impossible questions, but to see if any data exists out there to educate me on the issue. I am tempted to develop test data with the help of a few friends if none exists. In the absence of data no meaningful discussion with SCCA or NASA is viable in my opinion.

None of this is particularly easy but is it worth it to keep the maximum number of cars racing together. I do not enjoy the fact that 1.6's and 99's behave so differently in different parts of a corner, behave differently on different tracks and result in different racing styles.

Craig J

B Wilson Verified Driver Series Champ
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quote:
Originally posted by cnj:
[QUOTE]How did you come up with the 50 pound reduction and the 37mm plate suggestions? Have you or others done dyno testing? Have you or others done any track testing to check lap times or comparative car versions behavior? I don't ask this to be critical of your proposal or to ask impossible questions, but to see if any data exists out there to educate me on the issue. I am tempted to develop test data with the help of a few friends if none exists. In the absence of data no meaningful discussion with SCCA or NASA is viable in my opinion.

This should not be the job of competitors, as the data would be suspect. I would hope after this many years of unrest and useless runoffs data, the clubs would figure out a way to get the data. Yes the data would still be suspect by a few conspiracy therorists, but at least the rulemakers would have good data (better than anecdotal) to make decisions.

-bw

--------------------
Bruce Wilson
2010 Oregon Region Champ
2010 Monte Shelton Driver of the Year
2010 25 Hours of Thunderhill E3 and Under 2 liter Overall Champion
Oregon Region SM Class Advisor

Drago Verified Driver Made Donation to Website Series Champ
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quote:
Originally posted by B Wilson:
This should not be the job of competitors, as the data would be suspect.
-bw

Please remind what happened last year after we published a third party data analysis? "Thank you sir can I have another comes to mind." [Frown]

--------------------
Jim Drago
East Street Auto Salvage
jdrago1@aol.com
2006-2007 Mid-West Division
07,09 June Sprints Champion

EAST STREET RACING

Dwayne Hoover Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Where is Justin when we need him? 10 complainers means 990 satisfied customers!

--------------------
Visit the Midland City Arts Festival!

guest driver
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back to back slam dunks by LeBron and D-Wade, i'm impressed, no way anybody's beating these guys in '11
[Big Grin]
the score was 128 to 124 ?? before D-Wade took it to the house,
that makes it what, 130 - 124 ?? is anyone wearing '39' on the team ...
[Big Grin] [duck] [flamed]
jus cudn't reesist

Z-ville Racing Club Verified Driver
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If NASA opened up a class where 99+'s could run without restrictor and reduced weight in their own group what do you think would happen?

Would guys from both NASA and SCCA participate?
What would you expect car counts?

cnj
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quote:
Originally posted by Drago:
quote:
Originally posted by B Wilson:
This should not be the job of competitors, as the data would be suspect.
-bw

Please remind what happened last year after we published a third party data analysis? "Thank you sir can I have another comes to mind." [Frown]
Bruce, I agree however the process, at least for SCCA, is member driven and if I (or you for that matter) are to write a letter to make a recommendation then that letter might be well served to be based in some research. If I had some basis for supporting this 99 adjustment I might not only make a written request, but also ask that SCCA leadership expend finances to develop a study of the issue, but I am not going to do so based on a single post in this forum.

Jim, I understand your discouragement. However at the risk of annoying some, posts on this forum do not represent the will of the majority, simply the enthusiasm of the few who post (including myself). This may or may not reflect the desires of the class as a whole. While this forum should serve as a useful method of testing and listening to ideas, the SCCA and NASA structures still lead and innovate. If people feel strongly enough about change they can volunteer (SCCA).

Craig J

cnj
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quote:
Originally posted by Z-ville Racing Club:
If NASA opened up a class where 99+'s could run without restrictor and reduced weight in their own group what do you think would happen?

Would guys from both NASA and SCCA participate?
What would you expect car counts?

SCCA already has this in ITS (I can't remember the comparable NASA class). No restrictor and 2375 lbs for 99's. Typically (at least here in SW Div) only 1-2 of 8-10 eligbile 99 competitors choose this path on a typical weekend and that usually only for track time.

In other words we have already voted with our entries to race all together. Other regions may have different results.

Craig J

David Dewhurst
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quote:
Originally posted by Drago:
quote:
Originally posted by B Wilson:
This should not be the job of competitors, as the data would be suspect.
-bw

Please remind what happened last year after we published a third party data analysis? "Thank you sir can I have another comes to mind." [Frown]
Copied from the third party report.

Summary:

While analyzing data with many variables out of my control and unknowns, it creates problems with generating
any real concrete conclusions. As mentioned in the limitations section above, caution should be used when
making decisions based on this information.

--------------------
Have Fun [Wink]

David Dewhurst
CenDiv
Milwaukee Region
Spec Miata #14

B Wilson Verified Driver Series Champ
Gold Member

Region: Oregon
Car #: 68
Year : 91
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quote:
Originally posted by Drago:
quote:
Originally posted by B Wilson:
This should not be the job of competitors, as the data would be suspect.
-bw

Please remind what happened last year after we published a third party data analysis? "Thank you sir can I have another comes to mind." [Frown]
I understand Jim. But will you let comments from a few folks ruin it for everyone??? That's how we got rid of the compliance fee and that was not the correct decision either. IMHO, SCCA needs a better way to gather input. Making decisions based on a few folks comments is what keeps getting us into trouble! Needs of the many...

-bw
booyah on that dunk [Smile]

--------------------
Bruce Wilson
2010 Oregon Region Champ
2010 Monte Shelton Driver of the Year
2010 25 Hours of Thunderhill E3 and Under 2 liter Overall Champion
Oregon Region SM Class Advisor

B Wilson Verified Driver Series Champ
Gold Member

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Year : 91
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quote:
Originally posted by David Dewhurst:
quote:
Originally posted by Drago:
quote:
Originally posted by B Wilson:
This should not be the job of competitors, as the data would be suspect.
-bw

Please remind what happened last year after we published a third party data analysis? "Thank you sir can I have another comes to mind." [Frown]
Copied from the third party report.

Summary:

While analyzing data with many variables out of my control and unknowns, it creates problems with generating
any real concrete conclusions. As mentioned in the limitations section above, caution should be used when
making decisions based on this information.

DD, This is America and disclaimers are attached to EVERYTHING.

-bw

--------------------
Bruce Wilson
2010 Oregon Region Champ
2010 Monte Shelton Driver of the Year
2010 25 Hours of Thunderhill E3 and Under 2 liter Overall Champion
Oregon Region SM Class Advisor

John Mueller Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
Okay, not the slowest anymore...

Region: SoCal
Car #: 13
Year : 1992
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quote:
Originally posted by cnj:
SCCA already has this in ITS (I can't remember the comparable NASA class). No restrictor and 2375 lbs for 99's. Typically (at least here in SW Div) only 1-2 of 8-10 eligbile 99 competitors choose this path on a typical weekend and that usually only for track time.

In other words we have already voted with our entries to race all together. Other regions may have different results.

Craig J

That would be Performance Touring E class (PTE): (RULES)... Most NASA event schedules allow drivers to 'Supersize' to race in both SM & PT classes.

--------------------
Thanks,
John Mueller
NASA SM National Director
http://www.Weekend-Racer.com
#13 "Tiger Miata" - 2009 SoCal SSM Champion

Z-ville Racing Club Verified Driver
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I guess I was thinking about having their own group within PTE? Only racing against other 99+ miata's? The way this is going I can't see how it will ever be resloved. Make a change and a whole list of new issues come up.

John A - 5X Racing Verified Driver
www.5xracing.com

Region: NASA FL / CFR SCCA
Car #: 25
Year : 1991
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quote:
Originally posted by KG:
I'm still puzzled why there is no talk about the 94-97 in this discussion.

Best reply yet. What about the 94-97 cars?

--------------------
John Adamczyk

Owner: 5X Racing Online Race Shop
Driver: Team 5X Racing #25 Spec Miata
NASA FL Race Director
Race Engineering Powered 1.6

Mike LL
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A couple of observations after following this thread, and a couple others on the same subject.
First of all, parity is never acomplished. In our class, it's not just the car but also the tracks. If you were to test what 50lbs would do or a smaller RP, you would have to test at a lot of different tracks. For instance, at PBIR/Moroso, if you gave any more to the 1.6, the 99 wouldn't stand a chance.
As far as this being a low cost series, there is no such thing in racing if you want to win. The more "spec" you make it the more of an advantage the people with money or resources have. If stock ECU's can have a 1 or 2 hp difference, then someone with a huge budget can buy 50 of them and dyno time and find the best. If you let them be flashed then the lower budget guys have a chance to be close without having to spend too much. People will spend the money to win period. My son raced karts with a guy who spends over $500,000 a year for his 2 sons, and they win.
If you change rules, are you doing it to help people that don't want to, or can't put the effort or money into winning. If you do the changes, the guy's that put the effort and money into their racing now will do it with the new rules, and they will still be winning. If the 1.6 crew isn't showing up at nationals now they're not going to show up with rules changes.
I don't envy anyone in charge of trying to equal things out, so long as they're not trying to equal out the effort.
Maybe the answer is taking some of the emphasis off the Run Off's as the "Super Bowl". Maybe just make it a higher point race towards a national champ.
Currently my son drives a 90, I'm trying to work out a way to get into a 99. The way I look at it, if I can't manage to afford a 99 or even upgrades to our 90, then there is no way I can afford to win consistently, nevermind going to the Runoffs.
If you split the class, at least for now here in NASA Fl, you might as well drive an E30 or 944.
We have racers from other classes buying miatas so they have some competition. Our last race at Sebring had one 99 out of 14 cars. SCCA here seems to be more evenly split, but there aren't enough cars to split and still keep the reason racers love this class. Most SM racers like that there is always someone close to them to race, sure they would love to win, but front, middle or rear, with the size of the fields you always have someone to race. That could be gone with a split.
Just some observations from a newbie to SM but a long time racing enthusiast.
Sorry for the book [Big Grin]

--------------------
Mike Lliteras
Sponsor, Mechanic, Owner and Dad
NASA FL

Alex Bolanos Verified Driver Series Champ
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quote:
Originally posted by John A - 5x Racing:
quote:
Originally posted by KG:
I'm still puzzled why there is no talk about the 94-97 in this discussion.

Best reply yet. What about the 94-97 cars?
They make great beginner cars and parts cars (body panels for the 1.6 and spare blocks/rear ends for '99s). Other than that? [Frown]

Drago Verified Driver Made Donation to Website Series Champ
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quote:
Originally posted by Alex Bolanos:
quote:
Originally posted by John A - 5x Racing:
quote:
Originally posted by KG:
I'm still puzzled why there is no talk about the 94-97 in this discussion.

Best reply yet. What about the 94-97 cars?
They make great beginner cars and parts cars (body panels for the 1.6 and spare blocks/rear ends for '99s). Other than that? [Frown]
Come on Alex give me a break there bud [Frown]
it qualified p2 at the Runoffs and finished P3? Car is still a little heavy IMO, but it is a very good car, I am building another right now.

--------------------
Jim Drago
East Street Auto Salvage
jdrago1@aol.com
2006-2007 Mid-West Division
07,09 June Sprints Champion

EAST STREET RACING

Alex Bolanos Verified Driver Series Champ
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quote:
Originally posted by Drago:
quote:
Originally posted by Alex Bolanos:
quote:
Originally posted by John A - 5x Racing:
quote:
Originally posted by KG:
I'm still puzzled why there is no talk about the 94-97 in this discussion.

Best reply yet. What about the 94-97 cars?
They make great beginner cars and parts cars (body panels for the 1.6 and spare blocks/rear ends for '99s). Other than that? [Frown]
Come on Alex give me a break there bud [Frown]
it qualified p2 at the Runoffs and finished P3? Car is still a little heavy IMO, but it is a very good car, I am building another right now.

Hmm, you build one and sold it before the runoffs. Blake built one and parked it at the the runoffs (did it even turn a lap). It's a great car, just not as good as a mid shelf '99.

Drago Verified Driver Made Donation to Website Series Champ
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So Tony beat 30 plus mid shelf 99's [Smile]
Blakes car was not right, still isnt and everything I have is for sale at anytime. The car is competitive now, but needs a little less weight IMO now taht it has the bigger plate. I think some will surprise in SM2 at the ARRC. I may run Blakes at the ARRC if I get some power out of it.

--------------------
Jim Drago
East Street Auto Salvage
jdrago1@aol.com
2006-2007 Mid-West Division
07,09 June Sprints Champion

EAST STREET RACING

Cliffy Chains
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Here is Big daddy trying to get some power out of Blakes car in his shop--- You didn't Know I had a hidden camera in you shop did you?? [Confused]

Drago - down on power still

--------------------
BDR Motorsports, Autotechnik
Cliff Blanchard
Down on power 1.6
Sluggish overweight 99'

Blake Clements Verified Driver Series Champ
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quote:
Originally posted by Cliffy Chains:
Here is Big daddy trying to get some power out of Blakes car in his shop--- You didn't Know I had a hidden camera in you shop did you?? [Confused]

Drago - down on power still

I could never own anything that ugly. Its about looking good, chains, you know that.

--------------------
Blake Clements

PhillipsRacePrep/SP Induction Systems/East Street Racing/MiataCage.com/Carbotech/WBR Graphics

www.blakeclements.com

Blake Clements Verified Driver Series Champ
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Coello finally bought a 99, so lets give the NA 1.8 a bigger plate now [Smile]

--------------------
Blake Clements

PhillipsRacePrep/SP Induction Systems/East Street Racing/MiataCage.com/Carbotech/WBR Graphics

www.blakeclements.com

taylorf Verified Driver
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quote:
Originally posted by Blake Clements:
Coello finally bought a 99, so lets give the NA 1.8 a bigger plate now [Smile]

+1

--------------------
Taylor Ferranti

Drago Verified Driver Made Donation to Website Series Champ
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quote:
Originally posted by taylorf:
quote:
Originally posted by Blake Clements:
Coello finally bought a 99, so lets give the NA 1.8 a bigger plate now [Smile]

+1
Let me guess, you sold the 1.6 and building a 94/97 now [Wink]

--------------------
Jim Drago
East Street Auto Salvage
jdrago1@aol.com
2006-2007 Mid-West Division
07,09 June Sprints Champion

EAST STREET RACING

Funracer Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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quote:
Originally posted by Alex Bolanos:
quote:
Originally posted by John A - 5x Racing:
quote:
Originally posted by KG:
I'm still puzzled why there is no talk about the 94-97 in this discussion.

Best reply yet. What about the 94-97 cars?
They make great beginner cars and parts cars (body panels for the 1.6 and spare blocks/rear ends for '99s). Other than that? [Frown]
So how do we fix that? Parity should not be just for the 1.6/99 cars.

Regards

MIATA 17 Verified Driver
2X SMMC Winner


Region: Milwaukee
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Year : 97 & 99
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quote:
Originally posted by funracer:
quote:
Originally posted by Alex Bolanos:
quote:
Originally posted by John A - 5x Racing:
quote:
Originally posted by KG:
I'm still puzzled why there is no talk about the 94-97 in this discussion.

Best reply yet. What about the 94-97 cars?
They make great beginner cars and parts cars (body panels for the 1.6 and spare blocks/rear ends for '99s). Other than that? [Frown]
So how do we fix that? Parity should not be just for the 1.6/99 cars.

Regards

Easy change the weight to 2350!

Blake Clements Verified Driver Series Champ
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quote:
Originally posted by MIATA 17:
quote:
Originally posted by funracer:
quote:
Originally posted by Alex Bolanos:
quote:
Originally posted by John A - 5x Racing:
quote:
Originally posted by KG:
I'm still puzzled why there is no talk about the 94-97 in this discussion.

Best reply yet. What about the 94-97 cars?
They make great beginner cars and parts cars (body panels for the 1.6 and spare blocks/rear ends for '99s). Other than that? [Frown]
So how do we fix that? Parity should not be just for the 1.6/99 cars.

Regards

Easy change the weight to 2350!
I'm going to need a diet. [Wink]

--------------------
Blake Clements

PhillipsRacePrep/SP Induction Systems/East Street Racing/MiataCage.com/Carbotech/WBR Graphics

www.blakeclements.com

Cliffy Chains
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It is your built in safety net for the scales!!

--------------------
BDR Motorsports, Autotechnik
Cliff Blanchard
Down on power 1.6
Sluggish overweight 99'

Dwayne Hoover Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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quote:
Originally posted by David Dewhurst:
quote:
Originally posted by Drago:
quote:
Originally posted by B Wilson:
This should not be the job of competitors, as the data would be suspect.
-bw

Please remind what happened last year after we published a third party data analysis? "Thank you sir can I have another comes to mind." [Frown]
Copied from the third party report.

Summary:

While analyzing data with many variables out of my control and unknowns, it creates problems with generating
any real concrete conclusions. As mentioned in the limitations section above, caution should be used when
making decisions based on this information.

OK, but what should we think of YOUR "analysis" and conclusions? Do you have a disclaimer? [Wink]

--------------------
Visit the Midland City Arts Festival!

Dwayne Hoover Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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quote:
Originally posted by guest driver:
quote:
Originally posted by Gatoratty:
quote:
Originally posted by davew:
They designed a track for a 1.6 ??????????

Weeeelllllllll maybe small British cars.......yeah that's the ticket.
i'll be more specific and say "the best" SM driver in the country at a track tailor made for the 1.6;
the first part is subjective but having raced against most of the top 10 finishers at the RunOffs, that's my opinion.
The "tailor made" part;

Come on, it's Taylor Made.

Oh wait ... wrong website ... as you were, soldier!

--------------------
Visit the Midland City Arts Festival!

David Dewhurst
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quote:
Originally posted by Dwayne Hoover:
quote:
Originally posted by David Dewhurst:
quote:
Originally posted by Drago:
quote:
Originally posted by B Wilson:
This should not be the job of competitors, as the data would be suspect.
-bw

Please remind what happened last year after we published a third party data analysis? "Thank you sir can I have another comes to mind." [Frown]
Copied from the third party report.

Summary:

While analyzing data with many variables out of my control and unknowns, it creates problems with generating
any real concrete conclusions. As mentioned in the limitations section above, caution should be used when
making decisions based on this information.

OK, but what should we think of YOUR "analysis" and conclusions? Do you have a disclaimer? [Wink]
Disclaimer, none what so ever. For simplicities sake pretend I'm not from Wisconsin but from Missouri which is called the "show me state". When Spec Miata site people I respect suggest the 1.6 as the rules stand at this time can not get the job (torque) done at Road America I'll believe them. [twocents]

Please note, I said Road America. At other tracks I view the 1.6 holds it's own.

--------------------
Have Fun [Wink]

David Dewhurst
CenDiv
Milwaukee Region
Spec Miata #14

Danny Steyn Verified Driver
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quote:
Originally posted by guest driver:
back to back slam dunks by LeBron and D-Wade, i'm impressed, no way anybody's beating these guys in '11
[Big Grin]
the score was 128 to 124 ?? before D-Wade took it to the house,
that makes it what, 130 - 124 ?? is anyone wearing '39' on the team ...
[Big Grin] [duck] [flamed]
jus cudn't reesist

Carlos
too tired and too dumb to decrypt - but I do see my #39 floating in the cryptic pool - please decypher for me - thanks

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Danny
http://www.dannysteyn.com
http://www.adeptstudios.com
OPM Autosports | Traqmate | Rossini Racing Engines
2010 June Sprints Champ, 2010 ARRC SMX Champ
2009 SARRC Champ, 2009 SEDiv ECR Champ, 2009 FES Champ
2008 SEDiv ECR Champ

Dwayne Hoover Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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quote:
Originally posted by David Dewhurst:
quote:
Originally posted by Dwayne Hoover:
quote:
Originally posted by David Dewhurst:
quote:
Originally posted by Drago:
quote:
Originally posted by B Wilson:
This should not be the job of competitors, as the data would be suspect.
-bw

Please remind what happened last year after we published a third party data analysis? "Thank you sir can I have another comes to mind." [Frown]
Copied from the third party report.

Summary:

While analyzing data with many variables out of my control and unknowns, it creates problems with generating
any real concrete conclusions. As mentioned in the limitations section above, caution should be used when
making decisions based on this information.

OK, but what should we think of YOUR "analysis" and conclusions? Do you have a disclaimer? [Wink]
Disclaimer, none what so ever. For simplicities sake pretend I'm not from Wisconsin but from Missouri which is called the "show me state". When Spec Miata site people I respect suggest the 1.6 as the rules stand at this time can not get the job (torque) done at Road America I'll believe them. [twocents]

Please note, I said Road America. At other tracks I view the 1.6 holds it's own.

Well, pretend I'm from Nevada, which is the "You show me yours and I'll show you mine" state.

We actually have the same position. When people I respect suggest (or "show me" data) that the 1.6 can't get it done at Road American, then I'll believe them.

I've driven both cars both places, and the 1.6 is better at Road America than at Mid Ohio. Torque schmorque, the 1600 is more than light enough to compensate for the hill and Road America is not a "torque" track. Video and data shows it, but if making every 1600 in the country worth <$8K is your goal, keep it up [Wink]

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