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Author Topic: SM w/ 99 hats not legal in ITA per Fastrack?!?
weidspeed Verified Driver
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Did I read it correctly in Fastrack that Spec Miata's (94-97) with '99 shock hats are NOT legal for ITA? I've run 1.6 with '99 shock hats in ITA ... and as those years weren't called out, I'm assuming 1.6 SM's with '99 shock hats remain legal. In fact, I had wrongly assumed any year SM 100% compliant with Spec Miata rules ran ITA until I borrowed a friend's '99 SM for a race in Colorado and was told it could only run in ITS. Can Oregon Region simply declare any SM in full SM trim to be eligible to run ITA?

Fastrack's ruling suggests that '94-'97 with shock hats need to find a new regional class seems nuts. So, you'd create a ITSM class?!? I don't have a dog in this hunt, but ... inquiring minds want to know.

Jim Weidenbaum

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99's run ITS, 90-97 run ITA.

The rule is that an SM legal car can run in IT, meaning you aren't allowed to pull weight/plate for IT. Since shock hats are legal in SM, they're legal in IT.

The line in Fasttrack disallows 90-97 SM's with 99' SUSPENSION, meaning crossmember, knuckles, etc.

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PedalFaster Verified Driver
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quote:
Originally posted by weidspeed:
Can Oregon Region simply declare any SM in full SM trim to be eligible to run ITA?

They already did years ago -- read the supps at the next regional. [Smile] This is why SMs with otherwise illegal-for-ITA modifications like depowered steering racks run in ITA at Oregon Region and Conference events.

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Stephen Hui - '95 SM #86, Northwest / Oregon Region SCCA

Jamie Tucker Series Champ

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quote:
Originally posted by Steven Holloway:
99's run ITS, 90-97 run ITA.

The rule is that an SM legal car can run in IT, meaning you aren't allowed to pull weight/plate for IT. Since shock hats are legal in SM, they're legal in IT.

The line in Fasttrack disallows 90-97 SM's with 99' SUSPENSION, meaning crossmember, knuckles, etc.

Not really sure where you got the info but you do not run a plate and the weight is different in IT! Hell you can run a computer, bore .040 over, port and polish, run a header ++++. You can drop some serious money in a IT miata. GCR #383. Spec Miata has nothing to do with IT. In fact most of our cars are not legal for IT because you cannot run .095 roll bar tubing. That does not stop many but that is the rule.
A 99 in ITS min weight is 2375 no plate
1.6 in ITA min weight is 2255
1.8 in ITA min weight is 2380 no plate

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quote:
Originally posted by Steven Holloway:
99's run ITS, 90-97 run ITA.

The rule is that an SM legal car can run in IT, meaning you aren't allowed to pull weight/plate for IT. Since shock hats are legal in SM, they're legal in IT.

The line in Fasttrack disallows 90-97 SM's with 99' SUSPENSION, meaning crossmember, knuckles, etc.

Funny I remember reading the rule in the GCR the same way"If an SM wanted to race in IT it had to run as it runs in SM" but looking through the '10 GCR it's no longer there. maybe it was a regional rule.

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Steven Elicati
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For an IT only car, you are correct. I'm talking about running an SM in IT. Not running an IT car in IT.

Several years ago the crb ruled that SM's can legally run in IT allowing us to double dip, or enter 2 classes for more track time, with the stipulation that the car had to be SM legal.
Obviously an IT car wouldn't be legal in SM!

Nobody does that in your region?

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Yes we do it all the time but you do not have to have a legal SM in IT. You can take a legal SM, pull the plate and reduce the weight and run it in IT. Then you have to put the plate back in and make SM weight to run SM; that is how it is done. You can double dip all you want; you do not need a legal SM to run IT only a legal SM in SM.

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cnj
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quote:
Originally posted by Steven Holloway:
For an IT only car, you are correct. I'm talking about running an SM in IT. Not running an IT car in IT.

Several years ago the crb ruled that SM's can legally run in IT allowing us to double dip, or enter 2 classes for more track time, with the stipulation that the car had to be SM legal.
Obviously an IT car wouldn't be legal in SM!

Nobody does that in your region?

Steve, this is going back a couple of seasons now and it did not affect me much as I was in a 99 anyway, but as I remember Fastrack came out with this rule in one edition and renounced it the next. 2008 I believe. In other words I am pretty sure that currently you can't use the "but I'm SM legal" argument for ITA unless the supps say so - and the SW Div supps never say so. On the other hand SM cars are so slow compared to a serious ITA prep car that I don't think there have been challenges in the SW Div.

Craig J

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I guess oregon is still playing by those rules:
I) Improved Touring A (ITA): SM or CSM cars entered in ITA must meet all SM or CSM class rules respectively.
SM/CSM cars not compliant with SM or CSM class rules entered in ITA must meet all ITA class rules.
quote:
Originally posted by PedalFaster:
quote:
Originally posted by weidspeed:
Can Oregon Region simply declare any SM in full SM trim to be eligible to run ITA?

They already did years ago -- read the supps at the next regional. [Smile] This is why SMs with otherwise illegal-for-ITA modifications like depowered steering racks run in ITA at Oregon Region and Conference events.

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Steven Elicati
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quote:
Originally posted by Jamie Tucker:
In fact most of our cars are not legal for IT because you cannot run .095 roll bar tubing.

Per GCR Page 154
Improved Touring roll cage tubing size are to be
calculated based on the published vehicle weight minus 180 lbs.

Which means all cars are legal with .095" Tubing.

Dennis

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quote:
Originally posted by NV Racer:
quote:
Originally posted by Jamie Tucker:
In fact most of our cars are not legal for IT because you cannot run .095 roll bar tubing.

Per GCR Page 154
Improved Touring roll cage tubing size are to be
calculated based on the published vehicle weight minus 180 lbs.

Which means all cars are legal with .095" Tubing.

Dennis

Your right! I never saw the -180 LBS before for IT and that makes the difference. You learn something everyday. [Smile]

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quote:
Originally posted by cnj:
quote:
Originally posted by Steven Holloway:
For an IT only car, you are correct. I'm talking about running an SM in IT. Not running an IT car in IT.

Several years ago the crb ruled that SM's can legally run in IT allowing us to double dip, or enter 2 classes for more track time, with the stipulation that the car had to be SM legal.
Obviously an IT car wouldn't be legal in SM!

Nobody does that in your region?

Steve, this is going back a couple of seasons now and it did not affect me much as I was in a 99 anyway, but as I remember Fastrack came out with this rule in one edition and renounced it the next. 2008 I believe. In other words I am pretty sure that currently you can't use the "but I'm SM legal" argument for ITA unless the supps say so - and the SW Div supps never say so. On the other hand SM cars are so slow compared to a serious ITA prep car that I don't think there have been challenges in the SW Div.

Craig J

Thats pretty much what we see in the SE as well. Even with the plate gone a miata has a hard time in ITA or ITS running at tracks with long straights when compared to a full blown IT car. But I don't see how Oregon can tell people they have to run a legal Spec Miata in ITA or ITS; that just seems off. Maybe the region has that power; I don't know but the GCR spells it out pretty clear.

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Andy Bettencourt Verified Driver
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Guys, just go with this: Most 1.6 SM's are illegal for ITA. To date, most ITA guys don't have a problem with it because they know in their heart that they shouldn't be getting beaten by an SM. The 1.8's in full SM trim (or even without the RP are legal right now) because any allowances are also legal in IT (shock hats, R&P changes, etc). The 99 cars are ITS cars so that car is moot.

Regionally, you COULD petition to allow the 99's to run in ITA under a very logical arguement, provided that they stay 100% SM legal. Most guys who double dip in ITS around her pull the RP. That would be a non-no if you were to try and sell that allowance to a local ITA guy.

For you double dippers in IT, I can tell you that the ice is getting thin. The more allowances you give the 90-97 cars that the IT guys CAN'T do, like upgrading the suspensions, etc, the more apt the IT guys are going to stop turing a blind eye and those cars get faster and faster. The best way to preserve your double dipping ways is to slow the 99 down, not speed up cars like the 1.6 (like with cams) or the 1.8.

Think it through.

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Andy Bettencourt
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99's are supposed to run ITS

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PedalFaster Verified Driver
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quote:
Originally posted by Jamie Tucker:
I don't see how Oregon can tell people they have to run a legal Spec Miata in ITA or ITS

Huh? Oregon Region's supps essentially say that if your SM doesn't comply with ITA rules, you can still run it in class as long as it's SM-legal. The rule's more liberal than the national rule, not the other way around.


quote:
Originally posted by Andy Bettencourt:
The 1.8's in full SM trim (or even without the RP are legal right now) because any allowances are also legal in IT (shock hats, R&P changes, etc).

Including depowering the steering rack? I've been told that that's not legal in ITA.

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Stephen Hui - '95 SM #86, Northwest / Oregon Region SCCA

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quote:
Originally posted by PedalFaster:
quote:
Originally posted by Jamie Tucker:
I don't see how Oregon can tell people they have to run a legal Spec Miata in ITA or ITS

Huh? Oregon Region's supps essentially say that if your SM doesn't comply with ITA rules, you can still run it in class as long as it's SM-legal. The rule's more liberal than the national rule, not the other way around.


quote:
Originally posted by Andy Bettencourt:
The 1.8's in full SM trim (or even without the RP are legal right now) because any allowances are also legal in IT (shock hats, R&P changes, etc).

Including depowering the steering rack? I've been told that that's not legal in ITA.

Ok! So you can pull the plate and reduce the weight as long as the car complies with with the other ITA/ITS rules. If your car does not meet those rules then you have to run in SM trim. Is that right! Im not sure how that changes anything. A 99 in ITS is legal as is the 1.8s in ITA without the plate and weight. Why would there be a need to write a rule allowing something that is already allowed. I could see the 1.6 needing the wording because of suspension changes and such but thats it. I don't doubt what you are saying; I just have never heard of such a rule. So if a 1.8 has a de-powered rack it would have to run with its plate because it is not allowed under ITA? Strange.

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In some regions (like mine) the sups say that if you double dip, you must run in full SM trim, even if your car is fully legal per ITA rules plus SM rules (no non-powered steering rack etc.)

For the record I appologize to whoever it was that got all pissed off that I spouted about being able to run without a plate since it's buried in a different part of the sups that I didn't find yet. One race, and I was slow as shit regardless.

Next time, rather than having a coniption fit with me not present, just show me how to find the rule instead of me hearing 2rd hand and then hunting until I find it.

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Steve,

The 99 is listed in ITS but the regions can do whatever they want if the drivers want it. Like I said, you could make a logical arguement that they could be included in a regional class but it will be a hard sell.

Stephen, Forgot about the rack, illegal in IT as you stated.

The SM rules are in a constant state of flux. The more you allow non-legal IT stuff into SM, the less apt the IT guys are going to allow you to be there absent any specific supps...and if I was a 'real' ITA guy in a region that DID have such a rule, I would want it reviewed and re-approved every year given that the SM rulesmakes don't care about IT and the IT rulesmakes don't care about SM.

--------------------
Andy Bettencourt
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The following items, that are legal in SM, are illegal in IT (A or S)

Depowered steering rack
Updated rear subframe braces
1.8 diff in 1.6 car
I seem to remeber something else, but it escapes me now.

So if you have any of these items you are tech shed non compliant. Some IT guys will whine, most won't. With these exceptions you can run a NA SM in ITA at ITA weight and no plate.

99+ SMs are relugated to ITS with the same items as listed above. But without plate and at ITS weight.

What we have done in Midwestern Council, many years ago, was to add a line that any SM in full SM trim (tires, weight plate etc.) may run in ITA.

In fact at yesterdays ITA race at Blackhawk, My SMs finished 1-2-4-5-6, with a lone BMW in 3rd.

The CRB in 2008 voted to allow all year SMs in ITA, the IT community went ballistic and a month later the rule was recinded. My opinion is that recinding the rule was a bad idea, but I only make SM rules, not IT rules!!!!!!

I do not know if it is within the regions power to change a GCR class rules for a specific race or series. I am not saying they don't, I am just saying I am not sure. Maybe somebody like Dave Gomberg or Mike Collins will know better.

Dave

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Hmmm, would be much happier driving my 99 with restrictor plate vs. ITA cars instead of 99 w/out restrictor vs. ITS cars. In ITA I think a 99 SM can have a good race with non-SM cars, but a 99 SM without a restictor has no chance against decent ITS cars.

Andy, want to get the 99 with restrictor in ITA in NER for 2011? [Smile] I would have fun playing with you on the track. It would be a lot more fun than going to STU like most of the 99's have in the northeast for double dipping.

PS, I put a manual rack in my car so it would be IT legal.

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Two observations.

First -

I find it very interesting that "Nationally" the IT community went balistic about having SM compliant cars allowed in ITA, AND yet there are multiple Regions (Divisions?) that have included this exact exclusion to the GCR in their Supps to allow SM to run in ITA. IT by DEFINITION is a Regional only class. So why are so many Regions allowing SM to run ITA? What is supporting this "National" interest? I have found no one that will dispute that a purpose built ITA car will blow the doors off the best built SM. So my take is that the weeny IT drivers don't want to be beat by SM competitors that have learned how to properly prepare their car and more importantly, LEARNED HOW TO DRIVE.

By the way, DO NOT expect to have SM allowed into ITA at a National level. The CRB has had enough of the IT community showing up on their door step with burning torches and pitch forks to even give this option a second glance.

Second -

Are we barking up the wrong tree as SM drivers wanting more track time, and due to the solid SM platform, are able to run more than one race group per weekend? Apparently SM is compliant in STU. There were 7 Miatas in STU at this years Runoffs. At least 6 of these were dual entries from SM. This is out of 20 STU entries. A proposed restructuring of the ST category in the August Fast Track explicitely allows SM to run in a new ST class STL. I haven't completely studied the ST rules, so I don't know if the SM roll cage allowance of the 0.095" wall thickness is really compliant. Regardless, I doubt if there would be a problem of including SM cars into STU.

Bottom line here is do we just do away with the Regional Supps rules allowing SM into ITA and we all just go play in STU (or if adopted, STL)? Or do we continue to wrestle in the mud with the weeny IT croud?

Jim

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Jim,

As you have noted, on a regional level, some groups have decided to specifically allow the crossover. I think it's a good thing for drivers and regional pocketbooks.

However, nationally and on a conceptual basis, the IT community wasn't excited about the inclusion of a class INSIDE their class that had different rulesets. Being an IT guy means knowing a little bit about a crapload of cars so you can try and police them. The rules have been pretty stable.

Add in the prospect of having to learn another ruleset, then the differences between 2 versions AND making sure they are compliant with those rules. The SM crowd can't even tell who is illegal amoungst themselves, nevermind expect an outsider to figure it out.

Sprinkle on a dash of 'let's give the 1.6 this and take this or that from the 99' and you have cars inside IT that are classed there, are winning chanpionships (like you) buit are not held to the same rules stability. You have a 1.6. The CRB decides that they want to bump everyones weight by 25lbs but give you cams. Fair to the IT guys? When does it end?

The solution was simply to not specifically call it out as legal, but to allow each region to do what was best for them and their members.

All that being said, ITA is a WAY better place to play if you actually want to race. STU is grouped with big-bore in most regions seeing as how it's the playground for ex-WC Touring cars. STL is coming out and that will be better, but not by much.

--------------------
Andy Bettencourt
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Jim
I think the resentment of some of the IT guys stems from the fact that there are several places to legally race Miatas. Their feeling was if they wanted to run IT, show up IT legal. I can respect that. They didn't want there class being the catch all for those who wanted to "double dip". They valued their race and track time like we do. I think all agree that a good ITA should never see a good SM car, but I don't think that was really their objection? Some regions spell out in the supps that all SM legal cars are legal in IT, if not spelled out in the supps, many SM cars are not legal in IT.
I run STU when I double dip, we are no where near competive in that class, but I know that going in. I even won two races as the class is just developing and teh competition isnt there every weekend. STL is on hold right now.
I will say, since I have been on CRB, things with IT community and ITAC have never been smoother. I often call or email Andy for opinions and guidance in IT and SM. He is one of the most knowledgeable and helpful guys I know in the community and has his head in the right place.

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I run ITA and have never heard any of the other drivers complain about the SM guys double dipping. Maybe down here in the south we're just friendlier. The more the merrier.

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Steven Elicati
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quote:
Originally posted by Jim Graffy:
Two observations.

First -

I find it very interesting that "Nationally" the IT community went balistic about having SM compliant cars allowed in ITA, AND yet there are multiple Regions (Divisions?) that have included this exact exclusion to the GCR in their Supps to allow SM to run in ITA. IT by DEFINITION is a Regional only class. So why are so many Regions allowing SM to run ITA? What is supporting this "National" interest? I have found no one that will dispute that a purpose built ITA car will blow the doors off the best built SM. So my take is that the weeny IT drivers don't want to be beat by SM competitors that have learned how to properly prepare their car and more importantly, LEARNED HOW TO DRIVE.

By the way, DO NOT expect to have SM allowed into ITA at a National level. The CRB has had enough of the IT community showing up on their door step with burning torches and pitch forks to even give this option a second glance.

Second -

Are we barking up the wrong tree as SM drivers wanting more track time, and due to the solid SM platform, are able to run more than one race group per weekend? Apparently SM is compliant in STU. There were 7 Miatas in STU at this years Runoffs. At least 6 of these were dual entries from SM. This is out of 20 STU entries. A proposed restructuring of the ST category in the August Fast Track explicitely allows SM to run in a new ST class STL. I haven't completely studied the ST rules, so I don't know if the SM roll cage allowance of the 0.095" wall thickness is really compliant. Regardless, I doubt if there would be a problem of including SM cars into STU.

Bottom line here is do we just do away with the Regional Supps rules allowing SM into ITA and we all just go play in STU (or if adopted, STL)? Or do we continue to wrestle in the mud with the weeny IT croud?

Man what crawled up your butt? Not enough drama over on the runoffs crash thread or parity threads. Here we are having a nice discussion about SM cars in IT and you come along name calling and stirring up crap.

--------------------
Steven Elicati
'92 Protege ITA#01
'94 Miata ITA#99

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+1 Steven

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quote:
Originally posted by SAE113:
I run ITA and have never heard any of the other drivers complain about the SM guys double dipping. Maybe down here in the south we're just friendlier. The more the merrier.

I don't think anyone is complaining anywhere. The global issue was the SPECIFIC inclusion via the GCR of a class that rules are not stable and could result in a car that wasn't 'slower in theory'.

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Andy Bettencourt
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Andy, I was responding to Jim Graffy's post.

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Steven Elicati
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A summary -

SM in ITA per GCR - Bad
SM in ITA per Supps - OK, (Until the SM rules get even more F@#! up.
SM in STU, legal, but may be a bad mix.

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quote:
Originally posted by SAE113:
Man what crawled up your butt?

A minor burr, but my post is not a constructive or appropriate way to deal with it. So I do owe the Forum an appology.

As noted I, and others have been running, purpose built SM cars in ITA. The intent of doing so was to double dip to get more track time; do this in a compatible race group; and do so in a legal car for the class entered. Some Regions are providing this option by allowing SM cars to run ITA (no mix / match of rules). I was hoping that this could be dealt with at a National level rather than depend on individual Regions. I was not understanding the opposition to having this happen.

From the discussion on this thread, I have come to understand and appreciate the basis for the opposition. While SM and IT have much of the same intent, the philosophy of how to achieve the intent of the respective class is different. So my perceived simple fix of adding a line item to the IT rules to allow SM to run ITA is not consistant with the philosophy of IT.

It does appear that with the current SM rules, no one seems to have major heart burn with individual Regions allowing the cross over from SM to ITA in their Supps. So when offered this option, I will take advantage of it.

Jim

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That about sums it up Jim [Big Grin]

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Jim Drago
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Back to the question of this thread...

I've seen IT cars with fully adjustable upper shock mounting plates installed.

So, you mean it's leagl in IT to completely remove the stock upper shock mount and replace it with an adjustable aftermarket mounting system but you can't use a stock part from another year of the same model car?

Tell me that can't be true???


MZ

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Mark
Different class, different rules.

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Jim Drago
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I would much rather double dip my 99 in ITA instead of STU. Most in NER with 99s use STU as a 2nd class simply because real STU cars are not showing up there. STU also often is in the same run group as SSM. The only other cars in NER that I have really seen in STU are ITS cars except for the occasional 1 Grand-am or Koni car.

We don't want to dip into ITS because we have no chance at being competitive and often gets boring. ITA would be a good spot for 99's in full SM trim. More cars with similar lap times to compete against. As many have said that a true ITA car with a skilled driver should have no problem beating a well-prepped 99 with a good driver. To be honest....I just want to chase Andy around the track. [fight] Am I a glutton for punishment? Yes.

Andy, how do we go about getting this combination accomplished? I realize that it would be per-region and only allowed per the sups.

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The problem is they don't want competitve SM cars in their race screwing up their results anymore than we want SRF cars doubling dipping with us? They can run similiar times as well? I get that part.
Jim

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Fair enough.

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The rules seam a bit more open to me. I think the 99 shock mount will pass tech - I know this does and it is really the same thing just not made by Mazda.

http://www.iscracing.net/miatasuspension.html

MZ

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quote:
Originally posted by Z-MAN:
Back to the question of this thread...

I've seen IT cars with fully adjustable upper shock mounting plates installed.

So, you mean it's leagl in IT to completely remove the stock upper shock mount and replace it with an adjustable aftermarket mounting system but you can't use a stock part from another year of the same model car?

Tell me that can't be true???

MZ

Most likely the IT cars with fully adjustable upper shock mounting plates installed were STRUT suspension cars where by rule camber plates may be installed.

Other forms of IT suspension may use shims & or eccentric bushings to acheive camber change.

The iscracing shock mount continues to use the OEM chassis mounting holes for the shock bushing/bearing carrier.

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Have Fun [Wink]

David Dewhurst
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Milwaukee Region
Spec Miata #14

   

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