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Author Topic: Tech Shed News??
Cajun Miata Man Verified Driver
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quote:
Originally posted by Sean Allen:
quote:
Originally posted by Cajun Miata Man:
quote:
Originally posted by Sean Allen:
DB, according to James's theory if you run nationals you have the money to spend so who cares if you have to get rid of the pro motor?

James, I disagree, spec classes (True spec classes!), with sealed motors and other parts are the way of the future. They work and they insure legal motors (if you have an illegal motor, it's pretty easy to tell). Why make national run sealed, and not regional? Well National actually means something, national guys are the ones that want results and may be doing it for more then fun. Those are the guys that you need to insure are running legal. Regional doesn't mean anything, its all for fun, let em run what they have and have fun with it. If someone feels they need to be a regional champion and they want to spend 7k on a motor, who cares? let them. Nationals can give you a future, and if we regulate what motors they can run it will keep cost down and not let them spend 45k on a miata... And not everyone that runs nationals and goes to the runoffs has a ton of money...

Sean,




I do notice that the folks running nationals and doing what it takes to run up front aren't complaining about costs or pushing sealed motors

That could be because some of the front runners are making money off 45k builds and 7k motors [duck]
An extremely tiny minority my friend.

--------------------
James York


sponsored by:
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Casey Z Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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quote:
Originally posted by Cajun Miata Man:
quote:
Originally posted by Sean Allen:
quote:
Originally posted by Cajun Miata Man:
quote:
Originally posted by Sean Allen:
DB, according to James's theory if you run nationals you have the money to spend so who cares if you have to get rid of the pro motor?

James, I disagree, spec classes (True spec classes!), with sealed motors and other parts are the way of the future. They work and they insure legal motors (if you have an illegal motor, it's pretty easy to tell). Why make national run sealed, and not regional? Well National actually means something, national guys are the ones that want results and may be doing it for more then fun. Those are the guys that you need to insure are running legal. Regional doesn't mean anything, its all for fun, let em run what they have and have fun with it. If someone feels they need to be a regional champion and they want to spend 7k on a motor, who cares? let them. Nationals can give you a future, and if we regulate what motors they can run it will keep cost down and not let them spend 45k on a miata... And not everyone that runs nationals and goes to the runoffs has a ton of money...

Sean,




I do notice that the folks running nationals and doing what it takes to run up front aren't complaining about costs or pushing sealed motors

That could be because some of the front runners are making money off 45k builds and 7k motors [duck]
An extremely tiny minority my friend.
Agree, but you have a couple of them in tech and more than a couple on the SMAC. It would be good if the class was defined by the guys that go out there and build cars and try to meet the rules as they understand them. The playing field should be defined by those that play on the field, not those that make a profit off the class.

This may not be a popular opinion, but I for one think we would be better off with guys that in vision the class as it might be rather than what it is. If you like the status quo then you are free to have a different opinion. However, if you think you are in the elite and have all the tricks, think again. You don't. All these guys that bought a "pro motor" are killing me. You got a motor from a pro. Do you really think you got a great motor? You may tell yourself you did, but you got a cast off. All the good motors went to someone other than you. James that goes for you too. That is how it works.

So is the class fair and healthy? You make the call. Did you make 128/122? Or better?

--------------------
----------------
Z Brothers Racing / East Street Auto

Casey Z - 1.6 Kettle
MidDiv National #13

Cajun Miata Man Verified Driver
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quote:
Originally posted by PedalFaster:
quote:
Originally posted by Cajun Miata Man:
I don't get it, why does the guy that runs for fun care if someone spends 45k on a miata to have a shot at being national champion? I don't get logic.

The local guy running for fun could care less what the national guys are doing. The local guy running for fun does care when he starts sliding from midpack to the back of the pack as more and more midpack drivers buy pro motors. Suddenly that local guy faces a choice: spend big money for a pro motor just to maintain his place in the field, or forgo pro power and struggle in every race to get ahead and stay ahead of people who have less driving talent but can drive by whenever the track straightens out. Suddenly that local guy isn't having much fun anymore.
I understand this point and that was my reason for saying I didn't understand the logic of a couple of folks who posted above yours wanting sealed motors for nationals but not for regionals. The argument used was regionals are "just for fun" anyway so who cares if some guys brings in their $7K pro motor? Well, I guess you do!

But, I am with Bruce on this one. Sealed motors won't happen in SM as we know it today. I think the same arguments pop up every fall/winter until the horse is dead or the season gets going again. It's always; 1) restrictor plates and weight and, 2) sealed motors to save SM.

--------------------
James York


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Stan's Auto Center, Lafayette LA
powered by:
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set up guru:
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Cajun Miata Man Verified Driver
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quote:
Originally posted by Casey Z:
quote:
Originally posted by Cajun Miata Man:
quote:
Originally posted by Sean Allen:
quote:
Originally posted by Cajun Miata Man:
quote:
Originally posted by Sean Allen:
DB, according to James's theory if you run nationals you have the money to spend so who cares if you have to get rid of the pro motor?

James, I disagree, spec classes (True spec classes!), with sealed motors and other parts are the way of the future. They work and they insure legal motors (if you have an illegal motor, it's pretty easy to tell). Why make national run sealed, and not regional? Well National actually means something, national guys are the ones that want results and may be doing it for more then fun. Those are the guys that you need to insure are running legal. Regional doesn't mean anything, its all for fun, let em run what they have and have fun with it. If someone feels they need to be a regional champion and they want to spend 7k on a motor, who cares? let them. Nationals can give you a future, and if we regulate what motors they can run it will keep cost down and not let them spend 45k on a miata... And not everyone that runs nationals and goes to the runoffs has a ton of money...

Sean,




I do notice that the folks running nationals and doing what it takes to run up front aren't complaining about costs or pushing sealed motors

That could be because some of the front runners are making money off 45k builds and 7k motors [duck]
An extremely tiny minority my friend.
Agree, but you have a couple of them in tech and more than a couple on the SMAC. It would be good if the class was defined by the guys that go out there and build cars and try to meet the rules as they understand them. The playing field should be defined by those that play on the field, not those that make a profit off the class.

This may not be a popular opinion, but I for one think we would be better off with guys that in vision the class as it might be rather than what it is. If you like the status quo then you are free to have a different opinion. However, if you think you are in the elite and have all the tricks, think again. You don't. All these guys that bought a "pro motor" are killing me. You got a motor from a pro. Do you really think you got a great motor? You may tell yourself you did, but you got a cast off. All the good motors went to someone other than you. James that goes for you too. That is how it works.

So is the class fair and healthy? You make the call. Did you make 128/122? Or better?

Casey,

You really went out with this post in left field. Since you are so knowledgeable I won't debate. I am very happy with my motor/car prep program and am confident it matches "the best" today. How I got it there is my business and I don't see any reason to detail or prove anything.

As far as elite. I am just an average schmoe. Hell, I even drink cheap beer. But you did my ego good and I guess all that right foot training I did in the off season paid off. Thanks!

I hope the outlook for you brightens as it sounds pretty morbid in your shoes. Good luck.

Oh and about fair.... nothing in life is fair.

[ 10-06-2009, 08:11 AM: Message edited by: Cajun Miata Man ]

--------------------
James York


sponsored by:
Stan's Auto Center, Lafayette LA
powered by:
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set up guru:
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B Wilson Verified Driver Series Champ
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quote:
Originally posted by Casey Z:
[QB Do you really think you got a great motor? You may tell yourself you did, but you got a cast off. All the good motors went to someone other than you. James that goes for you too. That is how it works.
[/QB]

Then I must be the luckiest guy in SM [Big Grin]

Send the best bench flowed parts to your builder and mark them. Tell them you want a legal engine that makes as much hp as the best he's built, and don't cheap out. That's saying a lot coming from me... Ken Jump in here if you want [Big Grin]

-bw

--------------------
Bruce Wilson
2010 Oregon Region Champ
2010 Monte Shelton Driver of the Year
2010 25 Hours of Thunderhill E3 and Under 2 liter Overall Champion
Oregon Region SM Class Advisor

Mr. Walker Verified Driver
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I have read most of this thread and WOW!!!!! As one who does NOT deal with the pro motor side of things $$$$$ and I still run up front with my junkyard motor i can say this. PUT A CLAIMER $$$$$$ on motors like the cost of a crate motor from Mazda plus install.
Let me say this one more time PUT A CLAIMER DOLLAR ON MOTOR!!!!!!!
If you still want to tinker to be polite and spend your money on a better motor its your gamble, afterall we are all racers and we do take chances, however i could come claim that motor, do you feel Lucky now Punk, hmm were did i hear that from.

The only area in my opinion a Pro built motor can compete with my car is on the Straights they got more and flat out drive around us. I dont even get so much as a tap in my .... but thats ok because i can buy 4 motor for what they have in there car.
If the claiming rule was in place and said person did have a lets say 5k motor i can protest and claim it for XXX $$$$ as spelled out in the rules. If we were to do this and now we find X year car is faster or whatever now we can handicap a car by Adding Weight How cheep of a fix is that. Everything i just said can and would equalize our Miata Family.
And i do believe the rule book needs better specs on parts since we are still going to press the issue however dont forget I CAN COME CLAIM YOUR MOTOR.

Ok now i want you tell me why a claiming rule on motors would NOT work.

guest driver
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" red or black label " ...
Andrew "black label" von Charboneau ... is that you ?? sure sounds like you ? gotta be you !!
Completely agree with you : Claimer rule is the only way to address the issue.

Gorilla Verified Driver Series Champ
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I'll throw this proposal out there. David DelGenio and i have been asking for sealed motors for 4 years now.

1. sealed motors from a builder that wins bid. all dyno'd within spec and delivered for much less money.

2. sealed ecu.

3. '99 as national car. 1.6 and 1.8 as regional cars. still run '99 in regionals too, but class is sm national.

4. remove restrictor plate from '99.

tech becomes much easier. everyone has the same power. SM becomes spec miata not similar miata.

--------------------
Steve Gorriaran
2009 SCCA SM National Champion
2009 NASA E2 Champion 25-Hours of Thunderhill

www.gorillaracing.com

Blake Clements Verified Driver Series Champ
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorilla:
I'll throw this proposal out there. David DelGenio and i have been asking for sealed motors for 4 years now.

1. sealed motors from a builder that wins bid. all dyno'd within spec and delivered for much less money.

2. sealed ecu.

3. '99 as national car. 1.6 and 1.8 as regional cars. still run '99 in regionals too, but class is sm national.

4. remove restrictor plate from '99.

tech becomes much easier. everyone has the same power. SM becomes spec miata not similar miata.

Steve,
A few comments on the above.

Number 1 is a good idea, but I feel like there are too many things to go wrong. Such as a "house" driver getting a better engine 1-2 hp, but within the range, better than everyone else. Top Shelf motors so to speak. The next issue is the guy that buys 5 motors to find one peach, where's the cost containment in that? I can buy 1 good engine instead of spending 2 times that amount trying to find a jewel.

I wish SCCA would issue sealed ECU's to every car at the Runoffs. I've run with one in both 06 and 08. Think its a quality idea, and I've asked for it before.

Number 3 will never happen. Too many people with early model cars want to run the Nationals, etc. We do NOT really have regional weekends in Texas other than a few. We have R/N and N/N weekends typically.

The only option is to go to a SM2 class like NASA had back in 07? Thats fine and dandy, but what you're going to get is guys having to pick between classes and car counts suffer. Between SM, SSM, and SM2 - the class will never survive.

I wish we could have 50 car fields in Texas again, that would be nice. But as they say, that ship has sailed.

--------------------
Blake Clements

PhillipsRacePrep/SP Induction Systems/East Street Racing/MiataCage.com/Carbotech/WBR Graphics

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quote:
Originally posted by Gorilla:
I'll throw this proposal out there. David DelGenio and i have been asking for sealed motors for 4 years now.

1. sealed motors from a builder that wins bid. all dyno'd within spec and delivered for much less money.

2. sealed ecu.

3. '99 as national car. 1.6 and 1.8 as regional cars. still run '99 in regionals too, but class is sm national.

4. remove restrictor plate from '99.

tech becomes much easier. everyone has the same power. SM becomes spec miata not similar miata.

 -

--------------------
John C. Kuitwaard
Team Principal/Driver
www.P1-MotorSports.com
www.Owater.com
www.AlexsLemonade.org

B Wilson Verified Driver Series Champ
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That'll get you a "Thanks for your input "

-bw

--------------------
Bruce Wilson
2010 Oregon Region Champ
2010 Monte Shelton Driver of the Year
2010 25 Hours of Thunderhill E3 and Under 2 liter Overall Champion
Oregon Region SM Class Advisor

Keith in WA Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorilla:
I'll throw this proposal out there. David DelGenio and i have been asking for sealed motors for 4 years now.

1. sealed motors from a builder that wins bid. all dyno'd within spec and delivered for much less money.

2. sealed ecu.

3. '99 as national car. 1.6 and 1.8 as regional cars. still run '99 in regionals too, but class is sm national.

4. remove restrictor plate from '99.

tech becomes much easier. everyone has the same power. SM becomes spec miata not similar miata.

In our region, if only the '99 ran in national events it would be a pretty small field unless people started driving from far and wide to race the couple of '99s that show up. Today the field is almost exclusively NA cars and mostly the 1.6 at the front.

--------------------
Keith Novak
(Will work for tires)

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quote:
Originally posted by Gorilla:
I'll throw this proposal out there. David DelGenio and i have been asking for sealed motors for 4 years now.

1. sealed motors from a builder that wins bid. all dyno'd within spec and delivered for much less money.

2. sealed ecu.

3. '99 as national car. 1.6 and 1.8 as regional cars. still run '99 in regionals too, but class is sm national.

4. remove restrictor plate from '99.

tech becomes much easier. everyone has the same power. SM becomes spec miata not similar miata.

How about 99 and up out of SM and into whatever is available in SCCA.

1.6 and 1.8 back to being SM like it used to be. [thumbsup]

Pat Slattery

--------------------
keeping the faith for the 1.6

Arrow Karts

Blake Thompson Verified Driver
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Some of you may be interested in this class:

http://www.mx-5cup.com

--------------------
http://btdtracing.com - YOUR Miata Parts Pimp

Greg Bush Verified Driver
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Johnny Walker's claimer rule won't work.

Say I take my big motor and go race, knowing it could be claimed.

To protect it, maybe I arrange ahead of time to have my racing buddy file the claim papers right after the race, before anyone else can claim it.

I do the same for his big motor, and at worst we swap two good engines. I'd promise to give it back before I get around to installing it....

So now we just have to get good at pulling motors at the track.

As far as trhe sanctioning body claiming them. They don't have the time, inclination, or money to do it. They barely tech the cars now, much less notice a few extra HP.

I'd like to see a split in the class between national and regional rules, with national being more restrictive.

What we are really discussing is rules for a championship that only 5% of us care enough to go to.

Why make the other 95% pay?

Blake Thompson Verified Driver
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quote:
Originally posted by Greg Bush:

I'd like to see a split in the class between national and regional rules, with national being more restrictive.

didn't we do that with pro?

--------------------
http://btdtracing.com - YOUR Miata Parts Pimp

jj15ball
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I've been reading this forum since I bought a Miata in the Fall of 07' and got the bug to run Spec Miata. I've been building my car for the last 2 yrs. My fiance' says its my obsession. And it is. I just got my provisional license at TWS with NASA in August and have run 5 races. The first 2 that first weekend at TWS was fun watchin the craziness into turn 1. I just stayed back and watched everyone pull away from me (weak setup and old 888's). So I bought a set of RA-1's, got a friend to help me with my corner weights (thanks Todd W.) and got out there in the mix at Eagles Canyon this past weekend. Started and finished 14th out of 18 both races on Saturday and had fun in the rain on Sunday. But at the last turn it was Todd and I in a drag race to the start finish line and he just motored away from me. He doesn't have a pro motor and mine is a $450 eBay special that I have run since last year.
So now I'm planning what changes to make for next season. My wish list Cool Suit, Fire System, Fat Cat Bump Stops, New/Used Gear Box, Torsen/Mazda differential, and yes a PRO MOTOR. ($400 + $400 + $200 + $500 + $1000 + $5000 = $7500) That doesn't include registration fees, fuel, travel, and consumables. I've already put over $13K into the car (including consumables) over the past 2 yrs. Plus I've spent $4k on track time and $2k for my trailer and tow vehicle. I'm not whining about spending the money. I can't wait to spend more to go faster, get better lap times, get up to 13th place (woohoo). But we are all kidding ourselves if we keep calling this "Spec" Miata. You cannot be "Spec" with 3 generations of cars running together. Let's call it 3 Spec Miata, because we really have 3 sets of specs to hold to. I really think a sealed motor program ship sailed way before I even thought of buying a Miata. If you want sealed motor run SSM, I've thought about doing so. But I've already started down the SM path and I'm too far along to go backward.
I guess my point is, the 1.6L is great at certain tracks and the 99' is great at tracks with elevation, and the poor 1.8 needs help everywhere maybe. We should continue to make little changes as we see more development with each model. But we also need to have measurable benchmarks so that the Tech folks can determine without a doubt what is legal and what is not all politics aside. I don't think the sky is falling like some of the folks here seem to suggest. OK my rant is done.

--------------------
Jason Ball

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We have a rule differance for the national and the regional with the tires now and everybody is screaming about that. Yea, lets make some more differant rules.
You guys seam to be laying all the disparity on the "pro motors". Define "pro"
And you are all forgetting the rest of the car.

--------------------
Charlie Campbell
Race Engineering
carbotech brakes

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Nice comment Greg (Say I take my big motor and go race, knowing it could be claimed.

To protect it, maybe I arrange ahead of time to have my racing buddy file the claim papers right after the race, before anyone else can claim it.

I do the same for his big motor, and at worst we swap two good engines. I'd promise to give it back before I get around to installing it....)

What you just said may happen but then again we would all know who is the cheater and since we are all gentlemen and ladies peer pressure does do wonders, and i will even go one step more and say most of the people i race against who do have pro motors get beat but drivers who can drive a momentum car through the corners anyone in my opinion can push on a gas peddle and go fast in a straight line, the purpose of this is about the spirit of the class and a way to lower costs and if you cheat you will get caught.
IT ABOUT LOWERING COST and making all cars as EQUAL AS POSSIBLE.
The post earlier mentioned sealed motors and bid it out, thats not a bad idea, but its going to cost, then what was mentioned was well what about if XXX driver buys 5 motors to find the one thats say 1 or 2 hp greater well there is nothing we can do about a fool with deep pockets. My $5.00 trophy is not worth that many K's and I'm sure that would be the person not invited to the BQ's
And i would NOT get the bodies involved in owning the motors except at runoffs, but then again if its a stock motor why would you not want a new fresh one??????

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Peer pressure isn't in the GCR, so it can't be enforced....

I'm with you Johnny, I don't have or want a big budget. Its all about fun.

What I am trying to point out is that a small percentage of participants take this seriously enough to really worry about these rules and the gray areas, and the championship.

Thats why I think we should have a place for the real serious drivers, and a place for the low budget fun-mongers.

The goals are too different to share a rule set.

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quote:
Originally posted by Blake Thompson:
quote:
Originally posted by Greg Bush:

I'd like to see a split in the class between national and regional rules, with national being more restrictive.

didn't we do that with pro?
That wasn't the same we we have now.

That was barely a regional only class then and was much smaller. The make-up of the we we have now is far different than the we we had then.

The pro series stopped before we went national.

The Pro series paid money, and still the budgets were smaller than the top notch national programs.

Thanks for bringing this up. It highlights that some people want Pro-level rules and enforcement from an Amateur level club.

Lets send SM National to be governed by SCCA ProRacing, and leave the regional schmucks (myself included) on their own. I'll even continue to pay the compliance fee if you promise to leave things alone.

B Wilson Verified Driver Series Champ
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JJ15ball, the sky is always falling in the off season!

I don't buy that just because someone who just bought a 99 says that on flat tracks the 99 and 1.6 are equal.

I just spent 2 races behind a 99 that parked it on the coners and drove away on the long straights (we race without the chicane at PIR sometimes.) If I hung back a carlength to get a run, I was screwed by having to make up a carlength. If I stuck to his bumper to get a draft, I was screwed. I have a very strong 1.6 and PIR is as flat as they come. Pretty frustrating to say the least.

-b

--------------------
Bruce Wilson
2010 Oregon Region Champ
2010 Monte Shelton Driver of the Year
2010 25 Hours of Thunderhill E3 and Under 2 liter Overall Champion
Oregon Region SM Class Advisor

Keith in WA Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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quote:
Originally posted by Greg Bush:

Thats why I think we should have a place for the real serious drivers, and a place for the low budget fun-mongers.

The goals are too different to share a rule set.

I like the idea of separate rules for nationals and regionals.

The runoffs field isn’t representative of a typical regionals field. Some tracks like RA aren’t representative of the tracks many of us race on in our regions. Many people seem to think that the parity at their track is pretty good already. The runoffs crowd is willing to spend more to race at that level than the weekend warrior. Don’t let one non-representative race dictate the outcome of the other 99%, especially if it requires a big investment.

Rather than have one race determine the fate of the body of all SM racers, let the national events have different rules than the regional ones. If different regions want to have supplemental rules for the regional class since they think their tracks heavily favor one flavor of car, it’s their choice. Regions already have supps for noise level at different tracks, tires, running two classes, etc. If the nationals contenders want to include supplemental regs for certain tracks in an attempt to better balance the cars there, they can do that without affecting the regionals guys.

--------------------
Keith Novak
(Will work for tires)

jj15ball
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by B Wilson:
[QB]JJ15ball, the sky is always falling in the off season!

I've noticed! Its quite amusing really.

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Jason Ball

fastbrewer
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A regional/National different rule set would kill SM in the Rocky Mountain Division.

Also keep in Mind that if NASA acts first in a rule change SCCA will likely follow suit.

I think that all issues could be resolved with RP and weight. add 35 to 99's leave 1.6 and 1.8's alone and allow a slightly larger RP in the 94-97 in order to breath a bit better on the top end. Publish engine specs for all to follow. clear and concise. Lets not split the class, no sealed motor program.

Now we wait and see whose cards come out first S or N

Chris70 Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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YES, YES, YES it is good to see that common sense still exists

--------------------
"Talent is often perseverance in disguise"

Greg Bush Verified Driver
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quote:
Originally posted by fastbrewer:
A regional/National different rule set would kill SM in the Rocky Mountain Division.

Why?

In my region, there aren't many National only guys, and few go to the runoffs (Sometimes as many as 2).

If we lost them we may not notice.

Jamie Tucker Series Champ

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What is this Nascar?

--------------------
2010 ARRC Champion
2010 CFR Champion
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Cliffy Chains
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quote:
Originally posted by Jamie Tucker:
What is this Nascar?

Here's my 2cents for what its worth. Each track has its own pros and cons for each different car.
Some tracks a 1.6L can win on any day,
Some tracks its a 99 car that rules.
The 94-97 1.8L needs a small adjustment agreed.

I have all three cars but choose the 1.6L for now, they say it teaches me to drive better. Yet a few of my friends (Andrew VC, Chipster, Cliffy Brown, Bolanos to name a few) can jump in my own car, and in 3-4 laps run faster times than me. Meaning I have more to learn, power don't fix the problems, skills fix the problem.

It's just an opinion, I am sure it will be met with some mixed fellings.

Gotta Go Nascar is back on!!!!

--------------------
BDR Motorsports, Autotechnik
Cliff Blanchard
Down on power 1.6
Sluggish overweight 99'

Sean Allen Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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quote:
Originally posted by Greg Bush:
quote:
Originally posted by fastbrewer:
A regional/National different rule set would kill SM in the Rocky Mountain Division.

Why?

In my region, there aren't many National only guys, and few go to the runoffs (Sometimes as many as 2).

If we lost them we may not notice.

Agreed. We have maybe two regional drivers that do more then 1 local national race per year. All are either regional only, or national only. Very little cross over.

Cajun Miata Man Verified Driver
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quote:
Originally posted by Casey Z:
Even if you buy a pro motor you are getting the motor they want to sell you and if you didn't contribute to the development program you get a not quite top shelf motor.

Not 100% correct in all instances. Some, I am sure. What if I told you I saw one of my motors built from my selected parts, installed, dyno'd and tuned? But if you wish to believe otherwise I am ok. Choose wisely I say.

quote:
Originally posted by Casey Z:
I think you miss the point.

Maybe. But it's the same repeat postings every year. For me, just give me the 2010 GCR and I'll comply to the rule set. When I don't agree with it anymore, I'll move on to another class or retire.

--------------------
James York


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Danny Steyn Verified Driver
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quote:
Originally posted by cam:
By your own admission, there is a whole cottage industry to support this specific class, as various tweaks are tried, costs go up.

Cam - in all seriousness, I don't know of any class where a cottage industry has not sprung up to tweak and increase teh performance of the vehicles participating in the class.

I recall my amateur motocross days way, way back, where guys were cutting special tread patterns in knobby tires with razor blades and charging for the service. If you wanted to be at the front, you used them, it made a difference. This will happen in any class, no matter how stricly controlled the rules are.

This is motorsport - possibly the fastest way to spend money. Its gonna happen no matter what. Its great to be idealistic and hope that you can buy a car and not spend. Not going to happen.

Even at Panoz where I started racing, where you drew your car number out of a hat, and the cars were supposed to be identical, there were significant differences between "identical" cars, and guys were slipping the crew mechanics green backs to try and tweak when no-one was looking.

Just being a realist - not a contrarian

--------------------
Danny
http://www.dannysteyn.com
http://www.adeptstudios.com
OPM Autosports | Traqmate | Rossini Racing Engines
2010 June Sprints Champ, 2010 ARRC SMX Champ
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2008 SEDiv ECR Champ

fastbrewer
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quote:
Originally posted by Greg Bush:
quote:
Originally posted by fastbrewer:
A regional/National different rule set would kill SM in the Rocky Mountain Division.

Why?

In my region, there aren't many National only guys, and few go to the runoffs (Sometimes as many as 2).

If we lost them we may not notice.

We have very small fields in RMD and there is quite a bit of crossover from a regional to National racer. We don't have people that only do one We also don't have many that try to go to the Runoffs, just that at a National SCCA race in RMD that is where the competition will be.
Lets say at a Regional in Utah only Utah guys will be there. A regional in Colorado, just the CO guys will be there, A regional in NM just the NM guys + a few CO guys. However at a National we see participation from all clubs in the Division but the same drivers will also be at a Regional 2 weeks earlier. If that makes sense. While all divisions might be slightly different what might be good in one could harm another, but what really gets hurt is the individual regions.

Bottom line a major difference between National SM rules and Regional Rules will hurt participation #'s in our Division. But since this is a class that benefits from having consistent rules between a bunch of different sanctioning bodies I doubt there will be that distinction from the SCCA.

SeanH88
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorilla:
1. sealed motors from a builder that wins bid. all dyno'd within spec and delivered for much less money.

I will NEVER support any rule change that puts a single vendor in place on something like a motor. Be careful what you wish for here.... Next thing you know the "chosen" motor builder sells out to SCCA Enterprises, and we all know how well that works..... Not to mention house drivers and cars. It happens now, why would it stop under 1 vendor? With 2500+ cars in the country, one vendor couldnt handle the demand.

I'm not completely sure where I stand on the sealed motor issue.... I dont think I like it, but am willing to listen.... If it were to happen, here is my 2 cents.

1. 5 Motor builders strategically located throughout the US to cut down on shipping. Each seal would be slightly different for each builder.

2. Choose whichever motor builder you want, but when its time for a rebuild, it must go to one of the other motor builders. That way all the builders know exactly what the other guys are doing. Self policing so to speak.....

3. If any motor is found to be illegal at any one of the tech inspections, then said motor builder and driver are on a one year probation and if another one is found out of compliance, then the motor builder is out of the program forever. This type of penalty could get the motor builder to "control" his/her customers a little. I know that seals are not perfect and in the pro world, they get tampered with all the time, so there needs to be huge penalties to make the risk not worth it.

I dont think the motor builders are friendly enough with each other that if they found something during a rebuild they wouldn't report it to SCCA officials.

Personally I think the parity between the model years is spot on.... There are some tracks that will benefit certain cars and it appears as though RA is a 99-05 car. I'm ok with that, because I know what car I need to do well with there. Be glad were not in showroom stock or the T classes, where there is a car of the year. It doesn't make sense to me to mess with all the cars in the country because of what happens at the runoffs... Minor tweak ok, major changes, I'm just not sure.

Participation numbers seem to be way down in a lot of areas, so making more classes and diluting the car count does not seem like a winning proposition to me. No matter what group, region, sealed motor or not you have to prep the car and spend the time away from the track to be ready once you get at the track. I alway hear about the pro motors being the differentiator and a lot of people think if they had a 7K motor they would all of a sudden start winning races. Not the case at all!

Just my 2 cents.... Flame away.

Isn't it time for the tire argument yet? Pro Toyo, Anti Hoosier.

Sean

Greg Bush Verified Driver
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If National was more restrictive (Sealed head or engine, different weights or restrictors, etc) they would still be legal for Regional, and possibly just as competitive as now depending.

Most of our Regional only guys can have plenty of fun knowing someone will outspend them and be faster (skill aside). We are happy to contend for "Best of the Rest" and take pride in our fun-per-dollar ratio.

Why should we endanger the regional guy's fun for the desires of the top 5% of the class?

Take that 5%, move them to a class where they can dither over rules and dimensions and parity all year and let the other 95% of us have unimpeded fun.

fastbrewer
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It's not that a National guy can't run a Regional it's that out here most of the regional racers that only do one or two National weekends per year would be shut out of a National race. Even though most aren't running top level runoffs quality cars we like National races for the competition and driver #'s.

Sealing and making a National rule set like that would not be a good idea for this class at this time. Unless there were runoffs specific rules regarding hp/weight sealed on site fresh off a dyno then maybe, only at the runoffs. However at any region hosted race during the rest of the year is something I would not enjoy, nor would my region support.

Keith in WA Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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That sort of depends on the specifics of the rule difference between the national and regional events. If it was a sealed motor and ECU than you're probably right. If it was something like weight and RPs maybe not. If they change RP sizes on my 1.8, that will probably be my cheapest expense all year.

I'm sure a number of people this year skipped some nationals because they wanted to burn up their tire supply where they were legal in regionals and not invest in new sets of 888s required for nationals. Same sort of deal. You had to pay to play the game.

--------------------
Keith Novak
(Will work for tires)

Kim Ouye Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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If you have different rules between regional and national then they're not even the same class.

--------------------
Kim

91 BRG SMT RIP
06 MX-5 Cup

"Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting 'Holy sh*t...what a ride!'" - Unknown

cam Verified Driver
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quote:
Originally posted by Danny Steyn:
quote:
Originally posted by cam:
By your own admission, there is a whole cottage industry to support this specific class, as various tweaks are tried, costs go up.

Cam - in all seriousness, I don't know of any class where a cottage industry has not sprung up to tweak and increase teh performance of the vehicles participating in the class....

Just being a realist - not a contrarian

True and valid and will continue but do we have to implement a rule set that activity promotes and supports the "pro motor builder”? I fully acknowledge that as long as there is a race, someone is going to try to find a way to have a competitive advantage, myself included. The intention of my post was not to promote cheap racing, rather to have the cars be more equal and know what is legal. A by product should be lower long term cost on motors. The whole idea of being tech shed legal but the better tech guys know you cheated up the head (as Mike C. stated earlier), just can not prove it, rubs me the wrong way.

quote:
Originally posted by Mike C:
All of the heads had obviously had work done to them. The quality of work was top shelf...

Because the modified heads (or what ever part we are discussing) will become the new standard and that continued trend will eventually cost a great deal more over time and serve the best (highest paying) customers. A sealed motor is not cheap, but at least if someone gets caught modifying the motor, we all know he was cheating. There are still a great deal of other ways to tweak to get more power and faster lap times, some legal, some grey, and some cheating. If we take the motor out of the equation then the pro builders can focus on all of the other ways to quicker lap times. But in the current environment, where does one draw the line between being cleaver within the rules and cheating?

And just to be clear, I really do not enjoy intrusive tech inspections but it would be nice if tech did more than what seems to be common which is checking weight and socks. I’ve lost track of how many times that my socks were check but the hood was never opened. I think a quick check of the seal and whistle test will do a lot to keep the obvious modifications out and level the field.

My personal desire is to do what is best for the class long term. If I believed that a RP and weight change would solve the issues, then I would really prefer that. It would be quick, simple, and cheap. But we currently do not really know what is legal and I do not think there is a quick, simple, and cheap answer to the “what is legal” question.

--------------------
"The problem with Socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money."
~Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher
"A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have."
~Thomas Jefferson

volante Verified Driver
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I heard Obama,Michelle and Oprah are on their way to Topeka as we speak to push for this for 2010.


1.6- no change

1.8 -Give them back last years RP but keep the weight they gave them

99's -Restrict the RP a bit but take some weight off


Nice!!

I hope they do a better job then last time!!


O lem picky fence

--------------------
volante

Blake Thompson Verified Driver
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I sure wish we had a no politics clause on these websites.

--------------------
http://btdtracing.com - YOUR Miata Parts Pimp

D.B. Cutler Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Blake,

What ya mean ? We have the 1.6 party, the 1.8 party, the 99's, etc. It's all politics all the time here !

Randy Cox
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Great read.

darmstrong Verified Driver
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Does anyone know if the 59.95 is per shock, or for all 4.

Dave

GROOTS
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If your talking about a rebuild.Sounds like its per shock. I cant imagine a bargain like 4 for $60 bucks ! [nope]

--------------------
JEFF GRUTER
SM #48
EXCELL MOTORSPORTS
PARAMOUNT TOOL & EQUIPTMENT http://www.ptetool.com/

Gatoratty Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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per shock

--------------------
Paul McLester

 
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