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Author Topic: Modified ECU/Computer
amolaver Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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quote:
Originally posted by Mark de Regt:
Paul, I am all in favor of nailing cheaters. The only issue, in this case, is that there seems to be no good way to reliably nail cheaters, and only cheaters.

If you're going to have a rule, it means something only if it can be enforced; we know we can't rely on people's sense of honor and fair play. If there's a reasonable, effective way to enforce the "stock ECU only" rule, that would be a wonderful revelation. But so far, all I've heard is that the more sophisticated cheaters cannot be caught.

If that's the case, that's a horrible situation. So something has to be done. To me, that means either truly sealed, single-source ECUs, or open ECU.

If, indeed, all cheaters can and will be caught, without innocents being pulled in by the same net, then it would be nice if that were not kept secret.

And not that it's relevant, but open ECU would cost no more than $700, and probably less. Anyway, how do you do a weekend for $400? Hell, tires, gas and brakes would cost that, not even including entry fee, getting there and back, eating, and sleeping.

quote:
Originally posted by Drago:
FOR THE LAST TIME...
IF WE DID NOT HAVE A WAY TO ENFORCE THE RULE 100 %, WE WOULD NOT BE PROPOSING IT!!! PLEASE READ THAT OUT LOUD 10X BEFORE POSTING QUESTIONS REGARDING IT.

Now, if I was made SM rules king for the day ( as many of you incorrectly suspect I am) [Wink] and I decided to make remapped ECU's or after market ECUS legal today. They would not become legal for use until Jan 1, 2011. The BOD has a rules Season now. We can make comp adjustments during the year, but not rules changes. So even if that was what we felt was best, we have this year to deal with. We have a rule, we will enforce it. take your chances. We can't enforce it any way [Wink]
Jim

Jim says 100% enforcement or it wouldn't have been brought up. That I think is the only point of legitimate contention. IF that can be proven true, then the open ECU idea needs to die. The class was divined as low cost - whether its $700 for $1200 is irrelevant. That's more than zero. A lot more.

We NEED a way to validate the OEM ECUs. Can Jim / davew address the methodology beyond the physical inspection? As others have said, the physical is too easy to circumvent.

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ahm - http://www.awesom-oracing.com
2009 NASA MA SM Champion

David de Regt Verified Driver
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I think it's funny that people are complaining about the cost of the ECUs. I've spent over a thousand bucks at the dyno trying to eke power out of a 1.6. If I'd had a megasquirt, it woulda been two to three hours in and out, done forever unless I want to try to find better manifolds as well.

Either way, I'm happy to go on the record saying that open ECUs are cheaper in the long run, at least on 1.6s.

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Chris Haldeman
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i dont care about the cost of the ecu my problem is i feel it will help the 99 more than the others by allowing timing control.i do agree that it will be easier to tune the 1.6 for sure,but we still lose the war.the rich get better and the poor fall farther behind.that is racing though i say open it all up cams,porting,injectors,regulators,and by all means allow balancing the rotating assembly.or let it go and get over it.

David de Regt Verified Driver
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So give them timing control and make their restrictor plate too small to stick a pin through. These things are all solvable.

--------------------
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Chris Haldeman
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quote:
Originally posted by David de Regt:
So give them timing control and make their restrictor plate too small to stick a pin through. These things are all solvable.

i'm in this will save me about $25,000 [Smile]

Jamie Tucker Series Champ

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quote:
Originally posted by CP:
Carefully put all ECUs into 3 buckets after regional/national qualifying: a 1.6 bucket, 1.8 bucket and a 99 bucket. Then each driver picks an ECU at random from his respective bucket to run for the race and keeps it until his/her next race weekend. Repeat this process for the entire season. Then my broke ass has a chance of getting an expensively doctored ECU on any given race weekend.

That would not work because tuning on a 1.6 is ECU specific. Untouched ECUs are not the same and when someone takes their car to the dyno to have it tuned it is with their ECU and if you replace it with another it may run to lean or to rich.

--------------------
2010 ARRC Champion
2010 CFR Champion
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Jamie Tucker Series Champ

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Many of you are missing the point so I will make one last try at explaining it. The reason people use modified ECUs on 1.6s, 1.8s, and 99s is because it allows for a better fuel curve and on the 99 it allows you to increase timing. Yes it will give more power to the 99s which would require the 99s to have a slight penalty. Please remember we are only talking 3 horsepower regardless of what you hear. So lets say you do not allow the 99s the timing via the ECU; which is where 95% of that 3 horsepower comes from then you have only hurt the 1.6 cars. Why you might ask!! Simple, the 99s can get the timing advance other ways much cheaper than an ECU and drivers are already doing it. You can even lean the car in about 5 minutes so Teching the ECU only keeps you drivers in 1.6 at a disadvantage. There is no magic to why the ECU is moded and if you allow open timing through other means on the 99 we would not even need an open ECU. The facts are the facts. You either allow for these mods up front and than reevaluate the class for parity or you keep your head in the sand and pretend that all 99s are running 10 degrees of timing. I do not want to speak for JD but it seems that his plan of putting everything on the table so that we can achieve even better parity seems to be what needs to happen. This is the last time I am going to try to help out the 1.6 cars as all it does is fills up my email with people that don't want believe that I am trying to help. From here on out I will just keep plugging away at making my 99s crush the other cars!

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2010 ARRC Champion
2010 CFR Champion
2010 instigator of the year
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Drago Verified Driver Made Donation to Website Series Champ
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quote:
Originally posted by amolaver:
[QUOTE]We NEED a way to validate the OEM ECUs. Can Jim / davew address the methodology beyond the physical inspection? As others have said, the physical is too easy to circumvent.

The reason the visual inspection was brought up was because the few that we saw were so bad, there could be no mistake. As Dave said in our SMAC post, we knew that with these solder joints looking so bad, they would either start wave soldering or flashing the chip while on the board. According to Joe on the other site, they are doing that now. Probably so? I really don't know.
So the next step, one that we are working on now. I have sent two harness connectors and wires to two different EE's. We have pulled the chip off a modified board and read it and pulled a chip off of stock boards ( ruining about $800 worth of stuff out of my pocket) I don't care to go into detail as if we say what we are checking and what is so obviously different, it will give the flashers information and possible ways to camouflage? I freely admit they are a few steps ahead, but make no mistake... As Joe points out, this isn't rocket science either! Although we have a few nuclear scientists on our side [Wink]

Last night on our CRB call, we clarified some rules that will have to go through BOD and recommended some penalties. IMO it was illegal to replace chips on the board already, we went on to actually spell it out. We also defined that on all 96 and newer cars the OBD2 port must be operational.
We will be buying some data loggers that plug in the obd2 port as well. There is no way to hide max timing advance, PERIOD! Regardless of what anyone tells you. The max timing advance on the stock 99 computer is 23.5 degrees, yes ALL 99 computers. The reprogrammed boxes are 27.5/28.5 degrees. The guys doing this are smart,no doubt. But there are many smart guys on this side as well.
When we can enforce the current rules, we must. When we can't, we need to look for another method or include them in the rules for everyone. If and when we get to a point that I feel we can not check for these ECU's, I will tell you. I sincerely don't think we are near that point yet. At no point will fully programmable ecu's like megasquirt be an option IN SM IMO. So if that is your hope, you better get behind enforcement.
I have talked to Joe Mccloughan several times about this and he wants to provide a spec sealed box, that may be something we look into when it becomes cheaper to stop fighting. The price is very reasonable.( about $175, but I think we can get done for $150) It may be something we put out for input at some point. But that is not something we woulkd ever do less serious input from the class, offivcial input, not here. Again, if we made spec sealed boxes legal today, it would not take effect until 2011. So we have this year to deal with regardless. I am also not one who feels like we should just give up just yet. I am also sure Joe will contradict most of what I posted. You believe who you like. I am not going to say much more on this other than we are very seriously looking at it. You make you own judgements.
Jim

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Jim Drago
East Street Auto Salvage
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EAST STREET RACING

Teamfour Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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quote:
Originally posted by Drago:

So the next step, one that we are working on now...

Again, from one of the poor, little peeps, and possibly in the minority, I applaud what the SMAC is trying to do.

--------------------
Lee Tilton
1993 Meowta #04
Brimtek Motorsports/ Team Four Racing
Team Four Racing

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Thanks Jim.

db

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Thanks Jim for sharing your update.

Pat

--------------------
keeping the faith for the 1.6

Arrow Karts

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Jim and others...thank you!

Since a used ECU cost me a $100 from some guy in Memphis...... [flamed] A sealed ECU for $150 is okay with me.

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Paul McLester

soupy
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Let me get this right. If I have a bad ecu and find a bad chip in my ecu and I'm smart enough to figure out which one, replace it with the stock part. Upon tech instection it is found I soldered something and will be banned for life?????
I applaud the SMAC for trying but don't agree with the direction this is headed.
I had a long talk with Bob Dowie last year on this exact subject and his answers didn't leave me feeling good about a way to police this. Therefore I am somewhat suprised at knowhow to easily fix this.

--------------------
Charlie Campbell
Race Engineering
carbotech brakes

amolaver Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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quote:
Originally posted by Jamie Tucker:
quote:
Originally posted by CP:
Carefully put all ECUs into 3 buckets after regional/national qualifying: a 1.6 bucket, 1.8 bucket and a 99 bucket. Then each driver picks an ECU at random from his respective bucket to run for the race and keeps it until his/her next race weekend. Repeat this process for the entire season. Then my broke ass has a chance of getting an expensively doctored ECU on any given race weekend.

That would not work because tuning on a 1.6 is ECU specific. Untouched ECUs are not the same and when someone takes their car to the dyno to have it tuned it is with their ECU and if you replace it with another it may run to lean or to rich.
Umm, exactly? It removes the incentive to mess with the ECU when its unlikely you'll leave the track with the same one you brought.

I am curious what the objection is to this model. It seems by far the simplest and while it doesn't guarantee anything, it does seem a dumb thing to stick a performance enhancer in a box that your positional competitor is just as likely to get as you are.

Better yet, bring one or two ECU's for each car type (known OEM) and swap them in the rotation, pulling two from competitors. This would allow inspection time away from the track by tech...

--------------------
ahm - http://www.awesom-oracing.com
2009 NASA MA SM Champion

Hugh S. Sutton
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I say Seal um and weep [Smash] [Smash] [Smash] [Smash] [Smash] [Smash]

HSS
Sm #71 Blue 1997

Danny Steyn Verified Driver
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thanks to SMAC / Drago for the continued guidance!

--------------------
Danny
http://www.dannysteyn.com
http://www.adeptstudios.com
OPM Autosports | Traqmate | Rossini Racing Engines
2010 June Sprints Champ, 2010 ARRC SMX Champ
2009 SARRC Champ, 2009 SEDiv ECR Champ, 2009 FES Champ
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quote:
Originally posted by Drago:
I have talked to Joe Mccloughan several times about this and he wants to provide a spec sealed box, that may be something we look into when it becomes cheaper to stop fighting. The price is very reasonable.( about $175, but I think we can get done for $150)

Whoa -- if a spec sealed ECU would be under $200, then I vote we just do that now.

--------------------
Stephen Hui - '95 SM #86, Northwest / Oregon Region SCCA

Weekend Warrior Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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quote:
Originally posted by Jamie Tucker:
Simple, the 99s can get the timing advance other ways much cheaper than an ECU and drivers are already doing it. You can even lean the car in about 5 minutes......

And these "other" methods of timing advance are legal? Why not explain to those of us that do not know, how this is done. Seeing as you seem to want to help us lowly 1.6 drivers out...

--------------------
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jmac36
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Guys, first let me tell you that infact my company, Dynotronics,Inc, is doing the PCMs for the 90-05miatas, as well as the 2006-2010 MX5s.

Now before you guys burn me at the stake, I did not start out doing this to go after the spec miata crowd, that was sort of an off shoot.

I'm sort of glad this came to light, and thats why JD did it. Its simple logic,this spec class is not!

Let me just toss out a couple of things for you to think about;

Do you think folks like Jim Drago, and other top builders don't know that if you test 30 pcms on a given day you are going to get 15 different results? The variations in componant parts is that big in these boxes. I don't say this to bash Jim, or anyone else, its just good prep work to do this. I have a great respect for Jim as a builder. But ask him directly if this is not so.

There are over 200 file sets that came in various versions of the BP4W 18 881C. And thats factory files with sums. And thats just what we have found so far for 99-00!

There is a set limit to the timing in the files, correct, but if we move the values in the tables to gain mid range tq without bumping over the factory limit, how can a datalogger read that? Yes it can be done with hours and hours of side by side comparison, but I will tell you that we have found lots of variations in the factory files in the timing and fuel curve.

I told Jim I would be more than happy to spec a box for ALL years.Yes all years! The 90 can be done, regardless of what you have heard, and we have sold quite a few of them. And that we could do it for a fair price. And that we would try to police the miats boxes from now till the rulke would pass by vetting the racers(not sure how yet).

We could do this rather simply. and it would be very effective, and it would stop the BS about the PCMs

Ok,thats a little to think about, but let me leave you with this. I relly did not jump into this to ruin spec miata. Like I said, this was an off shoot of what we do all the time for street cars. So you guys can flame away if you like, but remember, We brought this to the surface.

JM

fishguyaz
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quote:
Originally posted by Jamie Tucker:
quote:
Originally posted by CP:
Carefully put all ECUs into 3 buckets after regional/national qualifying: a 1.6 bucket, 1.8 bucket and a 99 bucket. Then each driver picks an ECU at random from his respective bucket to run for the race and keeps it until his/her next race weekend. Repeat this process for the entire season. Then my broke ass has a chance of getting an expensively doctored ECU on any given race weekend.

That would not work because tuning on a 1.6 is ECU specific. Untouched ECUs are not the same and when someone takes their car to the dyno to have it tuned it is with their ECU and if you replace it with another it may run to lean or to rich.
if an untouched ECU is not the same as another untouched ecu that WTF is this thread about?

stop the insanity!!!!!!!!


now i am lost.

--------------------
Josh Pitt
AZ Region

taylorf Verified Driver
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SPEC AND SEAL BOXES!

--------------------
Taylor Ferranti

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quote:
I say Seal um and weep
+1 Ah, a voice of reason.

Sealed ECUs from Mazda for everyone. At National events - random draw. Can't tune to that particular unit? Tough t!ts, everyone's in the same boat.

Kent Carter Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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My six cents:

1. Split the class. SM1 and SM2. Only 1.6L cars in SM1.
2. 1.8L cars in SM2:
1. ECUs will be replaced by a modified OEM ECU with a tamper-evident, socketed EEPROM containing specified code tuned for reliability not performance. SCCA Enterprises will have an EEPROM reader to check the EEPROM for tampering/reprogramming and OBD2 loggers will be used to screen for noncompliance in OBD2 cars. This check can be done routinely at SCCA Enterprises or in the field for some races. Officials will have spare ECU's on hand to swap out for suspect cars
2. All 1.8's will have equal gear and equal weight in SM2
3. NA1.8 cars can update to NB subframes
4. All wiring harnesses will be checked for resistance in series, parallel and for capacitance using a specific test fixture
3. 1.6L cars in SM1:
1. AFM's in 1.6L cars must be unmodified and random swaps will be performed
2. All intake components between filter and cylinder must be stock and unmodified
3. AFM's must be mounted in their stock location, position and configuration
4. All wiring harnesses will be checked for resistance in series, parallel and for capacitance using a specific test fixture
5. 1.6L ECU's will be replaced by a modified OEM ECU with a tamper-evident, socketed EEPROM containing specified code tuned for reliability not performance. SCCA Enterprises will have an EEPROM reader to check the EEPROM to check the chip for tampering/reprogramming. This check can be done routinely at SCCA Enterprises or in the field for some races. Officials will have spare ECU's on hand to swap out for suspect cars

There... fixed it for ya.

Joe? What do you think?

--------------------
Do I turn my 99 Hard S into a killerfast SM or seek a donor?

wheel Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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p. Electrical Equipment
1. The ECU and engine electrical harness must be as supplied
by Mazda. No modifications are permitted. The ECU maps
and inputs must not be modified.

Anything else is cheating.

DW Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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As many have indicated, this is much more than ECUs.

We make everything more complicated with our "spirit and intent" of the rules. "If it doesn't say you can, you cannot" is a joke. It leaves huge grey area and is contrary to human nature.

Remove the conflict between honor and competitive nature.

We need to consider changing the "spirit and intent" to "If it doesn't say you cannot, you can", and write a definitive set of objectively verifiable rules. If it cannot be tested objectively, then it is open. In practice, that's what we're doing anyway.

That said, kudos to to those who have spent a lot of time, effort, and money in development and are using their knowledge to develop objective, verifiable test procedures and rules.

IMO, we're going in the right direction.

My [twocents]

--------------------
Darrell Wheeler
-------------------
WBR Graphics
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jmac36
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Kent, as far as the socketed pcms, it can be done, but man that would get more expensive in the long run. How about a reflashed box to a set standard, tamper proof hardware, and potting? Make the box a one time thing, but who replaces the silly things anyway. They are bullit proof

Man I really don't know about the harness stuff, and don't get me to lying about the weight and gears. You guys have too much stuff to worry about!

CLee
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Are you guys talking about tech at runoff or tech at local events (Nationals/Regionals)?

There are hardly enough tech folks around in the local events. Do you really think they will have the time to look at a bunch of boxes?

And what if someone has an ADDITIONAL STU or other plug compatible ECU in the car.

So you want to check if it is a SM legal ECU? Sure, one will hand you perfectly legal SM ECU, no soldering required...

Jamie Tucker Series Champ

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quote:
Originally posted by fishguyaz:
quote:
Originally posted by Jamie Tucker:
quote:
Originally posted by CP:
Carefully put all ECUs into 3 buckets after regional/national qualifying: a 1.6 bucket, 1.8 bucket and a 99 bucket. Then each driver picks an ECU at random from his respective bucket to run for the race and keeps it until his/her next race weekend. Repeat this process for the entire season. Then my broke ass has a chance of getting an expensively doctored ECU on any given race weekend.

That would not work because tuning on a 1.6 is ECU specific. Untouched ECUs are not the same and when someone takes their car to the dyno to have it tuned it is with their ECU and if you replace it with another it may run to lean or to rich.
if an untouched ECU is not the same as another untouched ecu that WTF is this thread about?

stop the insanity!!!!!!!!


now i am lost.

When tuning a 1.6 you tune to a Specific ecu; which is legal. When you take somebody elese ecu you will loose the tune; which in turn hurts the 1.6 driver. That is different than what we are talking about

--------------------
2010 ARRC Champion
2010 CFR Champion
2010 instigator of the year
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Paging Mr. Holland, paging Mr. Holland.

Here's another opportunity for NASA to wag the dog. Spec sealed ECUs and they will come.

Jamie, I thought you were done explaining it to us. [Big Grin] [duck]

JIM DANIELS
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quote:
Originally posted by Danny Steyn:
thanks to SMAC / Drago for the continued guidance!

DITTO BUMP

JIM DANIELS
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quote:
Originally posted by PedalFaster:
quote:
Originally posted by Drago:
I have talked to Joe Mccloughan several times about this and he wants to provide a spec sealed box, that may be something we look into when it becomes cheaper to stop fighting. The price is very reasonable.( about $175, but I think we can get done for $150)

Whoa -- if a spec sealed ECU would be under $200, then I vote we just do that now.
Agree

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quote:
Originally posted by Jamie Tucker:
When tuning a 1.6 you tune to a Specific ecu; which is legal. When you take somebody else ecu you will loose the tune;

This is where us little guys are at a disadvantage in both knowledge and resources. Within the rules I understand the two primary ways to tune a 1.6 is via timing and AFM. So at the beginning of a race weekend, you get a random ecu and using practice sessions, A/F O2 sensor, and a timing light you tune your car just like the rest of us regular guys who don't have access to dynos for hours.

--------------------
Lee Tilton
1993 Meowta #04
Brimtek Motorsports/ Team Four Racing
Team Four Racing

Mark de Regt Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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quote:
Originally posted by Teamfour:
quote:
Originally posted by Jamie Tucker:
When tuning a 1.6 you tune to a Specific ecu; which is legal. When you take somebody else ecu you will loose the tune;

This is where us little guys are at a disadvantage in both knowledge and resources. Within the rules I understand the two primary ways to tune a 1.6 is via timing and AFM. So at the beginning of a race weekend, you get a random ecu and using practice sessions, A/F O2 sensor, and a timing light you tune your car just like the rest of us regular guys who don't have access to dynos for hours.
Excellent idea!

And, while we're legislating tuning out of the equation, we should also legislate out other "unfair" setup advantages those with the knowledge and resources (time and money) have, by welding the suspension at a specified camber, eliminating the ability to change ride height, and anything else someone who actually knows a lot about setup can think of.

Or perhaps, rather than tossing everyone's ECU into a bucket and randomly dealing them out before a race, let's go all the way and toss everyone's car into the bucket and randomly deal them out. That should eliminate all motivation to improve your car.

[Smash]

Let's not dumb down the class to the lowest point. The fast guys are fast because of all the time, money and effort they put into the activity, plus having talent. Tuning, within the rules, is a legitimate part of the game, especially at the pointy end of the grid.

As I've said, I'm all for rules that keep the arms race under control, as long as the rules can be effectively enforced, including at regional races. If sealed ECUs will accomplish that, at a modest price, I'm in favor of that. To this point, however, I remain convinced that someone with the proper motivation and enough money can defeat that.

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quote:
Originally posted by Mark de Regt:


Let's not dumb down the class to the lowest point. The fast guys are fast because of all the time, money and effort they put into the activity, plus having talent. Tuning, within the rules, is a legitimate part of the game, especially at the pointy end of the grid.


Aaah, as soon as I pushed the add reply button I knew my thought would be misconstrued. I am not advocating dummying down the class. My point was, that if given a random ecu, you can still tune the car to that ecu; you just won't have hours on a dyno to do it. Tuning is part of the game and one that I enjoy even if I don't have all the fancy resources. I just don't want folks to presume that a sealed or random ecu would take the tuning out of the game. In fact, it would make it all that more challenging.

--------------------
Lee Tilton
1993 Meowta #04
Brimtek Motorsports/ Team Four Racing
Team Four Racing

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We shouldn't penalize anyone for taking the time, effort, and money to legally setup and tune their car. We should also realize that this is "club racing" and not pro racing. Not even at the runoffs do we have a NASCAR R & D center to send suspect cars to be inspected. If you think someone is cheating (or apparently know for a fact like at Sebring National) then spend the protest fee and challenge them! Our tech guys are awesome, yet you can't expect them to tech the SM cars to the nth degree when they have a 300+ field like we do for a lot of our regional races.

I agree with Kent...split the class between the 1.6 and 1.8 cars and quit all of the nonsense with trying to equalize unequal cars. the way we are headed with talk of open ecu's, etc...you might as well go all of the way and prep for ITA, ITS, or ITR if you plan on running regional races.

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Paul McLester

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quote:
Originally posted by Teamfour:
I just don't want folks to presume that a sealed or random ecu would take the tuning out of the game. In fact, it would make it all that more challenging.

Which is why open ECU has appeal to me. For a fixed amount (probably well less than $700 when the market increases), we don't have to adjust the AFM. Less tuning time is less money in the long run.

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I vote for spec sealed ECU. I will gladly pay anything under $200. If it curbs cheating, adds parity and stops everyone from spending way too much time on the Internet discussing and debating rules and the likes...then bring it on!!!

--------------------
Jim Blaisdell
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An Open ECU also adds another knob for increasing the 1.6 performance as the AFM and its restriction can be tossed. All that is needed is a GM Style IAT Sensor and a piece of tube to mount it in. 20.00 give or take. This for the Megasquirt (diyautotune.com). I would imagine others are similar. Just sayin...

--------------------
Mark
http://www.ironcanyonmotorsports.com

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quote:
Originally posted by Gatoratty:

I agree with Kent...split the class between the 1.6 and 1.8 cars and quit all of the nonsense with trying to equalize unequal cars. the way we are headed with talk of open ecu's, etc...you might as well go all of the way and prep for ITA, ITS, or ITR if you plan on running regional races.

That might work in regions where you have huge fields and a wider mix of cars. In my region, where almost everyone drives in a 1.6 the small handfull of us in a 1.8 or '99 would be TSOL.

--------------------
Keith Novak
(Will work for tires)

jj15ball
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What I don't understand is, why would a SM Racer want to race against inferior cars A.K.A. cars with stock ECU's? If you have the money and desire to reflash you ECU, these guys need to step up to another class IT? and go full out with a fuel management system. I know if I won a race based on the fact I had a "super tuned" ECU, it wouldn't feel like winning at all. The win would be tainted like the asterisk going after Mark Maguire's name for using steroids! Only there aren't as many zeros on our win checks, well actually they're all zeros and no checks. Maybe some tire bucks. They're cheating because they can get away with it, but to what end? Most of us are here to have fun, those of us that aren't need to find another class. Or we all need to be able to "cheat" the same amount. And I don't think splitting the class SM1 and SM2 is the right answer especially in today's economy. We already have SSM.

Just my 2 cents.

If we go sealed, fine! If we open it up, fine! Just want to know what I need to budget for next couple of years. I'm already race poor, what's a litte further in the red!

--------------------
Jason Ball

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quote:
Originally posted by jmac36:
Kent, as far as the socketed pcms, it can be done, but man that would get more expensive in the long run. How about a reflashed box to a set standard, tamper proof hardware, and potting? Make the box a one time thing, but who replaces the silly things anyway. They are bullit proof

Man I really don't know about the harness stuff, and don't get me to lying about the weight and gears. You guys have too much stuff to worry about!

Joe, I agree with you to a point. I have potting compound and there is no such thing as tamper proof hardware, is there? I guess if you did a two color pot and put a serial number with one of those numbered tamper-seal things on it, it would be pretty hard to break. Oh, you'd have to write the seal number in the log-book, because I can buy the same seals you can. [Smile]

Can you reflash these ECU's without pulling the chip? Are you just desoldering the right couple/three pins and zapping it? It you have to pull the chip to read/flash, socket it! Makes future checks easier, right?

Does potting affect the cooling properties of the components in the box?

I guess I'm not convinced that you don't need a means of confirming that the right software is on board. I mean, come on Joe, we are old friends, right? Fellow Texans? Can't I get a little something extra? [yep]

Overall, I do like the idea a lot.

--------------------
Do I turn my 99 Hard S into a killerfast SM or seek a donor?

Tvance13
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A sealed ECU will not address the problem. People will find a work around (heck, it has been covered in this thread already). The only way to even the playing field is to move to an open ECU. Tune the piss out of it and slow down the cars with RP and weight that have an advantage. And I am sure that will start with the 99+ cars.

The more cheats that become legal, the less cheating is possible.

--------------------
http://TylerVanceRacing.com

cpdenis
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And there lies the million dollar question. Why would you knowingly cheat, use the grey (intent) areas of the rules to give you an edge. Claim you won a National, a regional, a club race a plastic trophy. If I'm in front of you at the end of a race, I know I did it myself, no special parts. It's up to guy in front of me to know if he did the same, and in no way am I accusing anyone in front of me of cheating. Let your conscious or lack off be your judge. All that said, I love my car and Spec Miata.

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quote:
Originally posted by Mark:
An Open ECU also adds another knob for increasing the 1.6 performance as the AFM and its restriction can be tossed. All that is needed is a GM Style IAT Sensor and a piece of tube to mount it in. 20.00 give or take. This for the Megasquirt (diyautotune.com). I would imagine others are similar. Just sayin...

the removal of the afm would need to be in the rules,and i think you are the first to relize that.your letter would carry some weight please send it

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A sealed ECU would solve the problem of "Gee, it came with the car when I bought it. I didn't know it was illegal." Sealed ECUs could still be teched. Exposed cheaters would have no excuse. Punishment should be swift and terrible.

And again, for 'big' races ECUs could be handed out randomly, and swapped randomly.

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quote:
Originally posted by d mathias:
A sealed ECU would solve the problem of "Gee, it came with the car when I bought it. I didn't know it was illegal." Sealed ECUs could still be teched. Exposed cheaters would have no excuse. Punishment should be swift and terrible.

And again, for 'big' races ECUs could be handed out randomly, and swapped randomly.

Agreed, except for one thing. If the cheating involves electronics external to the ECU (which I strongly suspect isn't that hard for those who know about these things), you won't have accomplished anything....

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How would one actually "seal" an ecu?

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And I suspect that there are not that many places to hide external electronics from a scrutineer who knows what to look for. And again, a blatant cheater should receive severe punishment.

-Denny

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New '99 restrictor plate:

 -

--------------------
Muda Motorsports
"We're all here 'cause we're not all there."

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quote:
Originally posted by Mark:
An Open ECU also adds another knob for increasing the 1.6 performance as the AFM and its restriction can be tossed. All that is needed is a GM Style IAT Sensor and a piece of tube to mount it in. 20.00 give or take. This for the Megasquirt (diyautotune.com). I would imagine others are similar. Just sayin...

This is ABSOLUTELY the wrong approach. Increasing performance is never free of cost and that cost is more popped motors. A slightly faster 1.6L SM doesn't increase the fun factor or make for better racing. Our goals should be to make ALL the cars run rich at the top, timing to be set conservatively and let our motors run long and reliably. That makes SM fun... stick the key in it, get on track and go door handle to door handle. If tinkerin' and figgerin' are what gets you excited, go EP!

--------------------
Do I turn my 99 Hard S into a killerfast SM or seek a donor?

 
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