Spec Miata Community   
search | help | calendar | games | forum home

  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» Hello Spec Miata Community » SpecMiata.com » Spec Miata » Halo Seats Safe? (Page 0)

 - Email this page to someone! | Subscribe To Topic
Page 1 of 2 1  2  next » 
 
Author Topic: Halo Seats Safe?
Ken SM-94 Verified Driver
Veteran Member

Region: Oregon
Car #: 94
Year : 91
Posts: 971
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for Ken SM-94   Author's Homepage     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

quote:
I find it hard to believe a center net will do nothing for your head. The way mine's mounted it fits very close to my helmet and the top strap goes right next to the CG of my noggin. If you look at that crash video and freeze a couple of frames, the guy's head is momentarily over the passenger seat and at one point it looks like it's over the package tray. With a net there it should at least decelerate your head and reduce the whip cracking effect.
I'm with you Keith. "Nothing" is a pretty strong statement.

I hate seat snobs [Smile]

TORacing
Member

Region: SFR-033
Car #: 10
Year : 94
Posts: 60
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for TORacing     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

I've had a halo seat ever since this happened to me @ Laguna:
http://www.molaps.com/videos/tommyo_pinball.wmv

I walked away w/o any injury whatsoever but I refuse to tempt fate w/o my Hans (worn one since 2001) and my halo seat. It's not worth it!

Tommy O

Mike Colangelo Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
Member

Region: NWR
Car #: 37
Posts: 391
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for Mike Colangelo     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

quote:
Originally posted by TORacing:
I've had a halo seat ever since this happened to me @ Laguna:
http://www.molaps.com/videos/tommyo_pinball.wmv

I walked away w/o any injury whatsoever but I refuse to tempt fate w/o my Hans (worn one since 2001) and my halo seat. It's not worth it!

Tommy O

Dude, you're a legend!

cooleyjb
Member

Region: NCR
Posts: 86
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for cooleyjb     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

quote:
Originally posted by Danny Steyn:
Keith - neither the center net nor the window net will contain a head - ranges from 10-20lbs with helmet. Add a serious deceleration of several G's and do the math - the net will NOT restrain the head to any appreciable degree. You need something rigid and substantial close to the head that prevents the motion and the resultant momentum

http://www.safetysolutionsracing.com/videos/


3rd video down on the right shows a persons upper body being contained by a right side net.

The key to the right side nets (and left side of course) is proper mounting. They are supposed to wrap around the back of the seat and be extremely tight. Walking the paddock at the last NASA race I was at was pretty eye opening. I saw only 1 right side net that did both of those things.

Johnny D Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
Hot Member

Region: SFR
Car #: 88 SM
Year : 99
Posts: 367
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for Johnny D     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

Benny Parsons explains????
How old and out of date is this video.
4 to 6" to the left and right is contained???
I hope you don't get hurt.
J~

rhart Verified Driver
Psycho Member

Region: SFR
Car #: 53
Year : 94
Posts: 82
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for rhart     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

Good goin Cool. You just made me change my mind on the center net, and I now know how to mount it! And I thought it was all about arm safety. Thanks for the video link. Everyone should watch all of the videos on this link. I did and I learned a lot.
Thank you!

Keith in WA Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
Pack Fodder

Region: NWR / Oregon
Car #: 88
Year : 95
Posts: 2000
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for Keith in WA     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

Most people don't install the center net properly. I spent quite a while getting mine right and tight.

The typical math doesn't actually work with crash dynamics. That's why testing is so important. It would take too long to explain and I have pizza in the oven and a motor to install tonight.

--------------------
Keith Novak
(Will work for tires)

rhart Verified Driver
Psycho Member

Region: SFR
Car #: 53
Year : 94
Posts: 82
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for rhart     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

Good goin Cool. You just made me change my mind on the center net, and I now know how to mount it! And I thought it was all about arm safety. Thanks for the video link. Everyone should watch all of the videos on this link. I did and I learned a lot.
Thank you!

Danny Steyn Verified Driver
Member

Region: SE
Car #: 39
Year : 1999
Posts: 835
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for Danny Steyn   Author's Homepage     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

Guys

I dont mean to be a d1ck about this... when I started racing motocross in 1981, Bell helmets had a slogan....."If you have a $10 head, get a $10 helmet." Perspective!

These days we are all much older and have way more to lose. Family, kids, employees etc.

I just dont see why anyone would even entertain not spending money and time to ensure that they have the best possible safety systems in their car to ensure that their lives continue as always.

I am certainly not a seat snob (and not sure if that was directed at me) but I am so surprised at the piss poor safety systems as installed in most cars in club racing. Guys - we lost 2 guys to fire this past year alone.....

My only position on all this, is..... take this stuff seriously.

It really is a matter of life and death, and safety system decisions, and investment of time and money in safety, should come WAAAAAAYYYYYYY before investment of time and money in ECU's, pro-motors, parity and all the other stuff that ignites the discussion on this forum...... but from my observation point that is seldom the case.

Just wishing that we ALL have safe enjoyment of this potentially life ending pastime that we enjoy.

--------------------
Danny
http://www.dannysteyn.com
http://www.adeptstudios.com
OPM Autosports | Traqmate | Rossini Racing Engines
2010 June Sprints Champ, 2010 ARRC SMX Champ
2009 SARRC Champ, 2009 SEDiv ECR Champ, 2009 FES Champ
2008 SEDiv ECR Champ

cooleyjb
Member

Region: NCR
Posts: 86
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for cooleyjb     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

quote:
Originally posted by Johnny D:
Benny Parsons explains????
How old and out of date is this video.
4 to 6" to the left and right is contained???
I hope you don't get hurt.
J~

How far forward do you think your body goes in a frontal impact of a decent magnitude?

Gatoratty Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
Member

Region: Central Florida
Car #: 3
Year : 1992
Posts: 1304
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for Gatoratty     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

I agree with Danny... [thumbsup] I just bought a fire system and the halo seat is next!

--------------------
Paul McLester

CP Verified Driver
Member

Region: NER
Car #: 7
Year : 1999
Posts: 636
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for CP   Author's Homepage     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

Fire system is in my budget for the next month too. I'm actually thinking about a left side net too in addition to my halo seat but I'm not sure how I'd mount it to wrap around my seat like my center net does now. All the cars in the BTCC races I've been watching over the last month have head nets on both sides and those guys are always crashing each other.

--------------------
-Cy
Supported by LTD Racing & Speed Shack - New England's Premier Auto Accessory Store
Rt1 AutoMile - Norwood, MA
http://www.speedshackonline.com

Gatoratty Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
Member

Region: Central Florida
Car #: 3
Year : 1992
Posts: 1304
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for Gatoratty     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

Daytona prototypes all have right and left nets. Most of them are the Safety Solutions kevlar C5R nets. They don't wrap the left net around the seat.

--------------------
Paul McLester

B Wilson Verified Driver Series Champ
Gold Member

Region: Oregon
Car #: 68
Year : 91
Posts: 2359
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for B Wilson   Author's Homepage     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

I think the origial question is still valid, and I have to tell you nobody has made a good argument yet. All of the halo seats I've seen in a SM have a flaw on the left side. That is your head is going to hit the top bar of the cage before it hits the halo rendering left left side just as effective as a taught net, IMHO. I have a net on boths sides and from the videos, it looks like that may be as effective. and there's no issues with egress.

I understand what you are saying Danny, but I'm not yet in agreement. Maybe someone can post some photos and explain how the seat model you chose, or how you installed, solves the cage clearance problem.

-bw
Net snob...
but nothing compared to "Kenny tightens his right side net with sailing hardware" [rolling on floor laughin]

--------------------
Bruce Wilson
2010 Oregon Region Champ
2010 Monte Shelton Driver of the Year
2010 25 Hours of Thunderhill E3 and Under 2 liter Overall Champion
Oregon Region SM Class Advisor

Mark McCallister Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
Just graduated from novice to rookie!!

Region: Central Florida
Car #: 40
Year : 1991
Posts: 393
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for Mark McCallister     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

I have a right-side net that wraps around my halo seat, and IMHO it's a really good combination. The right-side net will help to constrain the seat from moving to the right, especially if the seat, seat mounts, or floorboard were to fail, and of course it extends the size of the halo's protection.

Mark McCallister Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
Just graduated from novice to rookie!!

Region: Central Florida
Car #: 40
Year : 1991
Posts: 393
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for Mark McCallister     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

Bruce, you're right about the left-side above-door bar. The only solution I see to that is lowering your head-height by changing the seat-back angle, or finding a way to get the bottom of the seat lower. A left-side net wrapped tightly around the left side of your seat instead of a halo wouldn't solve that problem though, would it?

David Dewhurst
Veteran Member

Posts: 574
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for David Dewhurst     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

No question safety is issue one.

With that ^ I find it interesting that the SCCA demands a SFI 38.1 H&N restraint in the future, the SCCA recomends a right side net & some are doing left side nets. The SFI 38.1 rule basis that eliminates some H&N restraints is the demand for a single release point. Yet, the SCCA recomends & members are installing R & or L side nets which require second release points. The window net to keep body parts inside the car was required long before the H&N restraint showed up. I'm not even going to talk about all the stuff connected to the helmet that must be released. [Roll Eyes]

--------------------
Have Fun [Wink]

David Dewhurst
CenDiv
Milwaukee Region
Spec Miata #14

Keith in WA Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
Pack Fodder

Region: NWR / Oregon
Car #: 88
Year : 95
Posts: 2000
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for Keith in WA     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

I'll try not to lecture or sound like I'm the guru of seat safety but I'll share a little bit of what we see in crash testing seats and restraints...

In a crash, different parts of the car and human body are accelerating and decelerating at different times and rates. The car hits an object, then your torso hits the belts and rebounds against them, and with your head completely unrestrained, your body is snapping back while your head is still accelerating so it really is like cracking a whip. If there is something there for your head to strike before it builds up all that momentum and then reverses direction via your neck, it can greatly reduce the forces on a head strike and on your neck.

I'm sure a halo seat does it better than a net for side impacts but with respect to your head and neck, the goal of both is to help prevent your head from picking up all that momentum relative to your body before your body snaps it back like a whip. The farther your head moves before it's restrained either by a seat, net, or your neck, the more momentum your head builds up before one of those stop it. It's not about complete containment, it's about slowing the build-up of momentum early.

Returning to the original question [Wink] the probability of getting in a crash where head restraints will greatly increase your safety is much higher than the probability of a situation where you must flee the car in a hurry. So are they safe? They're significantly safer than not having a halo seat for most situations but egress can be an issue if you cant' fit through the window.

I do take my personal safety seriously but like it says on all my gear...Auto racing is an inherantly dangerous activity blah blah etc.

--------------------
Keith Novak
(Will work for tires)

cooleyjb
Member

Region: NCR
Posts: 86
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for cooleyjb     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

quote:
Originally posted by Gatoratty:
Daytona prototypes all have right and left nets. Most of them are the Safety Solutions kevlar C5R nets. They don't wrap the left net around the seat.

All GrandAm cars have right and left nets now. All the way down to ST.

Most of the DP cars don't have a seat that is analogous to the ones we use so it's not a very good. Their seating situation is much more like a formula car than a production based car.

SeanH88
Member

Region: OR
Car #: 88
Year : 1990
Posts: 186
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for SeanH88     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

The fact that this safety discussion is happening is a great thing.

Safety means different things to different people and as a racer you have to decide what that means to you and your family. How much money do you make a day at your job? How many days away from your job because of an injury while racing for a $5.00 plastic trophy would it take to pay for those safety items that might get you back to work Monday morning?

Get in your car with all your gear on. Put a blindfold on under your helmet and then practice getting out in a hurry. Time it, do it again and again until you can get out in less time than your fire suit and safety gear is rated for. Don't use the door.... Only the window. Assume the worst case scenario and be prepared for it.

Not sure if Charles E is still on this site, but he can tell you a very scary story of an MX5 engulfed in flames before it even came to a stop at the 25 hour this year. He got out in a hurry but was still in the hospital for a few days for what I heard was damage to his lungs.

Bottom line is racing is dangerous.... Do your best to make the car as safe as you can and then go out and have fun!

Mike Colangelo Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
Member

Region: NWR
Car #: 37
Posts: 391
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for Mike Colangelo     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

Speaking of halo seats, this is the next upgrade that will go on my car. It's replacing a non-FIA fiberglass seat.

Any recommendations on brand & model? Right now, I'm leaning towards the Cobra Sebring Pro GT:
http://www.subesports.com/products/cat/Seats/brand/Cobra/prodID/1985

and the Cobra Evolution S GT:
http://www.subesports.com/products/cat/Seats/brand/Cobra/prodID/653

Any opinions on these two styles?

This seat will go into a Honda CRX (I know, boo!) so the interior is quite a bit more roomy than a Miata.

CLee
Member

Region: Southern California
Car #: 33
Year : 1999
Posts: 107
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for CLee   Author's Homepage     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

quote:
Originally posted by SeanH88:
...
Not sure if Charles E is still on this site, but he can tell you a very scary story of an MX5 engulfed in flames before it even came to a stop at the 25 hour this year...

Before we scare any newbies away, I'll say that SM as a class is very safe. I have a colleague who went for a short walk and ended up in the hospital for breaking her arm when she tripped and fell on the sidewalk!!

I wonder if the MX5 mentioned above has a fuel cell instead of the oem fuel tank??

Apex to Apex
Member

Region: NASA Mid-West
Car #: 077
Year : 1995
Posts: 180
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for Apex to Apex     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

I was considering a full-containment seat even before this thread. But am now even more convinced to go with one. I agree, make yourself as safe as possible, then practice the 10 second emergency escape.

--------------------
"Driving is a serious business" - John Milner, 'American Graffiti'

KW78
Member

Posts: 16
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for KW78     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

quote:
Originally posted by Keith in WA:
I'll try not to lecture or sound like I'm the guru of seat safety but I'll share a little bit of what we see in crash testing seats and restraints...

In a crash, different parts of the car and human body are accelerating and decelerating at different times and rates...... the goal .... is to help prevent your head from picking up all that momentum relative to your body before your body snaps it back like a whip.
....

It's not about complete containment, it's about slowing the build-up of momentum early.



You know what would be great, something that stabilized your head side to side that was also indexed to your shoulders somehow... and shoot since we are all racers and know how to dampen unwanted movement at a wheel, maybe we could use the same principle to control momentum of our head....

Mark McCallister Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
Just graduated from novice to rookie!!

Region: Central Florida
Car #: 40
Year : 1991
Posts: 393
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for Mark McCallister     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

I was thinking of this thread as I was watching the in-car footage during the Daytona 500 on TV. The seats they use are fuller containment than fullest of full containment seats used in amateur sports car racing. Those guys (and ladies) do bumper cars at 180 mph every weekend for a living - to emulate that setup as close as possible seems like a good idea. I have an FIA halo seat (OMP), which I absolutely love, it's super comfortable, but for my next car will also look carefully at the stock car seat builders such as Butler Built, Joie of Seating, etc., for the specific purpose of a finding a full containment custom seat that will get my head further away from that above-door bar. I'm not sure that approach will work, as getting enough space for thick enough energy-absorbing foam is difficult in the Miata, but I think it's worth a look.

Cheers,
-Mark

spec pinata
Member

Region: NE Region
Posts: 38
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for spec pinata     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

Picture of new H&R restraint used in the New England region. Covers both fore and aft and side to side movement....LOL


web page

Z-ville Racing Club Verified Driver
Member

Region: Indy Region
Car #: 28
Year : 1990/2000
Posts: 32
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for Z-ville Racing Club     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

Is there a preference/safty of aluminum compared to composite?

Z-ville Racing Club Verified Driver
Member

Region: Indy Region
Car #: 28
Year : 1990/2000
Posts: 32
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for Z-ville Racing Club     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

oops...safety?

Keith in WA Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
Pack Fodder

Region: NWR / Oregon
Car #: 88
Year : 95
Posts: 2000
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for Keith in WA     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

Yes and no.

Aluminum is easy to deal with. You pick the right gauge, finish the edges properly, reinforce the right places and you pretty much know what you've got.

Composites can be stronger pound for pound and you can optimize the design a whole lot better since you can tailor the thickness, fiber direction, and do complex curves much easier. Doing it right takes much more know how. You can either throw material at the problem or get really scientific with it.

Really stout aluminum seats tend to be built like a tank. Reinforced out the ying yang and rigid as all hell. Composites done right allow you to design something that acts more like a catch net than a k-wall and can be safer since they allow the sudden shock of impact to be distributed rather than just contained.

--------------------
Keith Novak
(Will work for tires)

TillerTech
Member

Region: SoPac
Car #: na
Year : 89
Posts: 441
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for TillerTech     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

Interesting findings today.
I attended a "race car safety seminar" by Stand21 and Dr. Melvin.

The subject of seats is quite a hotbed, the FIA spec being uprated and the SFI working on specs for the US made aluminum seats. The LaJoie seats are wonderful, I don't think will fit inside the Miata though. However, an interesting finding, the alum seats with the flimsy side protection (head and shoulder) when used alone are pretty much worthless. But, when used properly with the right side net provides quite a bit of protection and one bonus, when the side supports are bent out of the way, you can exit through the passenger side(fire). try that with one of the full containment seats.

Also interesting, 9 point harnesses. Some of the Nascar guys are doing it with great results. Watch the F1 race and see if you can tell when they buckle in.

Also helmets and suit improvements in the ratings. Massa's life was saved by the Schruber helmet and FIA specs.

J

--------------------
Miata Race glass and CF from Legacy Molds. 4 1/2# CF Hood
http://www.jnent.net

ChrisA
Member

Year : 1999
Posts: 197
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for ChrisA     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

quote:
Originally posted by TillerTech:
Interesting findings today.
I attended a "race car safety seminar" by Stand21 and Dr. Melvin...
Also helmets and suit improvements in the ratings. Massa's life was saved by the Schruber helmet and FIA specs.

J

I thought some of the new FIA helmet specs were due to Massa's accident to help lessen the damage seen in his helmet.

--------------------
Chris

"Nothing can be simple. Everything's got to be a pain in the ass." - C. Adams

TillerTech
Member

Region: SoPac
Car #: na
Year : 89
Posts: 441
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for TillerTech     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

yes, the current spec was updated to add more stringent penetration/shell strength. I believe the prior spec was dated 2004 with an update in '08 0r '09.

The current shell strength is pretty high, requiring something like 6mm of CF. The penetrator test criteria went from 3 m to 5 m and increased the weight of the probe. I think the 2004 had the weight increase and the 2010 added the distance.

J

--------------------
Miata Race glass and CF from Legacy Molds. 4 1/2# CF Hood
http://www.jnent.net

omg
Member

Region: washington
Year : 1990 sm 1990 ssm 2007 MX5 Cup
Posts: 62
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for omg     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

I have been upside down in my Miata, non halo seat,side vent window removed, unable to open doors,
Hans device, I am 5'8, 170. It was a bitch getting out with EMS help. If I had a halo seat I question how I would have been able to. It is quite simple to see if you can if you have a Halo seat, get in and try to get out without opening your door. We have tried this at the track and it was not possible for some drivers to do. I know some people say if you have to get out you will find a way talk to EMS that is not always true. Now add the fact that you may be upside down, I lot different perspective.

With that said, I have a Halo seat in my MX5 Cup car with a right side net that is wrapped around the back of the drivers seat on the roll cage, very tight when done properly.

Not passing judgement but try getting out if you have a halo seat w/o opening your door. Good luck

Keith in WA Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
Pack Fodder

Region: NWR / Oregon
Car #: 88
Year : 95
Posts: 2000
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for Keith in WA     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

The flip side of that argument is first you must survive the crash before escaping the car is an issue. It's a trade off.

On one hand, with more protection you're less likely to be injured making the next problem getting out of the car.

On the other hand, with less protection, there's an easier escape path but you could sustain an injury that prevents you from escaping anyway, which might have been prevented with a containment seat.

Neither one is a slam dunk.

--------------------
Keith Novak
(Will work for tires)

Mark Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
Member

Year : 1990
Posts: 367
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for Mark   Author's Homepage     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

Interesting discussion. The NASA CCR specifies a time limit for the driver getting out with both the door open and door closed. Something like 10s with door open, 15s with door closed. I can't recall for sure. I know of at least one instance where this performance was verified for an annual tech. No way, no how, are most SM drivers getting out through the drivers window with a halo seat in time, HANS or not, Vent window or not. SM's are not alone in this regard. Personally I'd rather be alive and be able to try and extract myself, rather than mortally wounded knowing that if I could move I might be able to crawl out the window. A personal call I think. After racing with a halo seat I don't think I could go back to a non halo seat and give up the added security a halo seat provides even if it meant I *might* be able to climb out the window.

--------------------
Mark
http://www.ironcanyonmotorsports.com

SCCA_Racer
Member

Region: 33 SFR
Year : 1991
Posts: 167
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for SCCA_Racer   Author's Homepage     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

Ok, I know this has been debated in other threads on back bracing for FIA seats. My questions for you guys is about once a FIA seat reaches 5 years old if you add a seat back brace then how much longer could you use the seat?

--------------------
Joshua Fine
SCCA member 323214 since 2003
Novice Permit in 2010
Racing 2011

Keith in WA Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
Pack Fodder

Region: NWR / Oregon
Car #: 88
Year : 95
Posts: 2000
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for Keith in WA     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

As long as you feel comfortable that you're running with tired, modified safety gear, it's good forever.

--------------------
Keith Novak
(Will work for tires)

Keith in WA Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
Pack Fodder

Region: NWR / Oregon
Car #: 88
Year : 95
Posts: 2000
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for Keith in WA     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

I'm going to make a point here, so excuse me if it's blunt.

I've seen people question many times about belts, helmets, seats, nets, etc. how long it's safe to use them past the expiration date.

The guys who design them aren't exactly idiots. The guys who set the rules aren't exactly idiots either. They're generally well educated individuals who do it for a living and take their job very seriously. Hard not to when you know you have other people's safety in the trust of your decision making process.

If you want to ask random people on the interweb what's safe beyond what the safety professionals have put put their safety stamp on...might be best to reconsider your decision making process.

Just saying...

--------------------
Keith Novak
(Will work for tires)

SCCA_Racer
Member

Region: 33 SFR
Year : 1991
Posts: 167
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for SCCA_Racer   Author's Homepage     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

I understand Keith. I just was curious about the seat because the SCCA rulebooke as far as I can read has no expiration on the seat itself. However they have expiration on the safety belts listed in there.

--------------------
Joshua Fine
SCCA member 323214 since 2003
Novice Permit in 2010
Racing 2011

TillerTech
Member

Region: SoPac
Car #: na
Year : 89
Posts: 441
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for TillerTech     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

Joshua,

you are correct, SCCA doesn't check expiration dates on seats or fuel cells. It is up to you to police this in your own car. And as someone mentioned, it is your decision to race with dated materials. I don't even want to mention the guy who crashes and doesn't have his helmet checked (just puts another sticker over the paint).

But, I have to question the belt expiration policy, in other venues, the SFI belts are good for 5 years the same as the FIA.

John

--------------------
Miata Race glass and CF from Legacy Molds. 4 1/2# CF Hood
http://www.jnent.net

SCCA_Racer
Member

Region: 33 SFR
Year : 1991
Posts: 167
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for SCCA_Racer   Author's Homepage     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

Alright I have a really dumb question. Where did you guys see a expiration listed for seats? I email a manufacture and they did give me an expiration date on their seats as they said it is up to the sanctioning body. Like I said dumb question where did you find the expiration for the seats?

--------------------
Joshua Fine
SCCA member 323214 since 2003
Novice Permit in 2010
Racing 2011

Kent Carter Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
Future Never Has Been

Region: Houston
Car #: 91
Year : 1991
Posts: 2171
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for Kent Carter   Author's Homepage     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

quote:
Originally posted by SCCA_Racer:
Alright I have a really dumb question. Where did you guys see a expiration listed for seats? I email a manufacture and they did give me an expiration date on their seats as they said it is up to the sanctioning body. Like I said dumb question where did you find the expiration for the seats?

FIA seats have a date of manufacture. FIA requires replacement of composite seats after 5 years. NASA follows suit. SCCA doesn't comment on the subject at all, leaving it up to you (so far).

--------------------
Do I turn my 99 Hard S into a killerfast SM or seek a donor?

TillerTech
Member

Region: SoPac
Car #: na
Year : 89
Posts: 441
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for TillerTech     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

Joshua,

If you have a FIA rated seat, it will have a large yellow/gold sticker on the side.
FIA 9911-1999(year)
with a manufactured date (month and year).
should be good for 5 years if not involved with a crash, can be returned to factory for inspection and extended date by 2 or 3 years.

John

--------------------
Miata Race glass and CF from Legacy Molds. 4 1/2# CF Hood
http://www.jnent.net

SCCA_Racer
Member

Region: 33 SFR
Year : 1991
Posts: 167
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for SCCA_Racer   Author's Homepage     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

John,
I checked with the seat manufacture and the cost in shipping for re-certification would be more than just buying a new seat. Also the manufacture offered a new FIA certified seat which is good for 10 year instead of the standard 5 years.

--------------------
Joshua Fine
SCCA member 323214 since 2003
Novice Permit in 2010
Racing 2011

Kent Carter Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
Future Never Has Been

Region: Houston
Car #: 91
Year : 1991
Posts: 2171
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for Kent Carter   Author's Homepage     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

quote:
Originally posted by SCCA_Racer:
John,
I checked with the seat manufacture and the cost in shipping for re-certification would be more than just buying a new seat. Also the manufacture offered a new FIA certified seat which is good for 10 year instead of the standard 5 years.

Will the sanctioning bodies allow this?

... and which company is this?

--------------------
Do I turn my 99 Hard S into a killerfast SM or seek a donor?

TillerTech
Member

Region: SoPac
Car #: na
Year : 89
Posts: 441
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for TillerTech     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

Joshua,

yes, the new FIA spec is available.
Good for 10 years and should have a rear brace.

As I understand it, the old spec without the rear brace would start to fracture around the mounting holes and eventually fail.

If the sanctioning body doesn't require any spec on a seat, why would they not allow the new FIA spec/rating?

John

John

--------------------
Miata Race glass and CF from Legacy Molds. 4 1/2# CF Hood
http://www.jnent.net

Kent Carter Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
Future Never Has Been

Region: Houston
Car #: 91
Year : 1991
Posts: 2171
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for Kent Carter   Author's Homepage     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

quote:
Originally posted by TillerTech:
Joshua,

yes, the new FIA spec is available.
Good for 10 years and should have a rear brace.

As I understand it, the old spec without the rear brace would start to fracture around the mounting holes and eventually fail.

If the sanctioning body doesn't require any spec on a seat, why would they not allow the new FIA spec/rating?

John

John

I read the new spec a few months ago, but didn't think any reasonably priced seats fitting that spec were out yet. I'd love to know which seats meet the new spec. I know the upper line Racetech does...

--------------------
Do I turn my 99 Hard S into a killerfast SM or seek a donor?

TillerTech
Member

Region: SoPac
Car #: na
Year : 89
Posts: 441
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for TillerTech     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

Kent,

I would be careful about fitting the new seats into a SpecMiata, there just isn't that much room. You should be able to get out of the car through the window.

I recently attended a seminar by Dr. John Melvin, who has been studing race car safety. He had some very good video and test results. One item he was looking seriously at was the seats and supports. One suggestion about seats was the alum sheet type (with semi flimsy head supports) in conjunction with the inside net.
As a benefit, you could release the net and finish off the side support and exit on the passenger side. They had the in car video of the Danny Thompson crash at Bonneville this year. The car lifted off at about 260mph and flew over 1000 ft. He is alive today because of the Hans device. It was the 3rd or 4th impact that really tossed him around.

John

--------------------
Miata Race glass and CF from Legacy Molds. 4 1/2# CF Hood
http://www.jnent.net

Dave Stevens
Member

Region: So Cal
Year : 90
Posts: 74
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for Dave Stevens   Author's Homepage     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

quote:
Originally posted by TillerTech:
The LaJoie seats are wonderful, I don't think will fit inside the Miata though.

He does sprint, Legends, Alisons, kart and midget seats as well. All custom. Shouldn't be a big deal to get one in an SM. If he can fit one in a Legend, he can fit one in an SM. To my knowledge they haven't built an SM seat so you'd probably want to take a caged tub the their shop. They are all custom, fit to the driver. Expect to pay a couple grand or so. I got a quote for a basic seat for the hobby stock a year or so ago and it was just over 1500. Butler might be able to do the same thing but they're also pretty circle track specific. Both will be an IMIS and PRI for those that might be interested.

--------------------
The 2011 Money Furnace
http://racing.roaddog.com/

SeanH88
Member

Region: OR
Car #: 88
Year : 1990
Posts: 186
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for SeanH88     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

Check out the classified section under accessories for a new SpecMiata specific seat I have designed to address some of these issues.

I don't want to violate the advertising policy, so if you have questions PM me and I will answer what I can. This seat will NOT be cheap and will not be for everyone but I got tired of trying to get a safe and comfortable seat into a SpecMiata that didn't require a bunch of work to mount it and add a bunch of weight to the drivers side of the car.

Daniels/Drago - Sorry if I've violated the ad policy, please delete if necessary.

As far as the time it takes to get out of a car with full gear on buckled in etc, I think it is extremely important and often overlooked.

For the NW region for the 2011 season we are taking a car that is totaled and using it on select race weekends and SM Clinics to time all the SM drivers that want to test their skills on how quickly they can get out of the car. We will be installing 2 video cameras inside the car to video each driver and see if we can find a best practice as far as movements and sequences to get out of the vehicle. This tub we are using is on a rotisserie so we can actually perform the same competition with the vehicle upside down. We will be using a common helmet so drivers wont damage theirs getting in and out and will be starting with both hands on the wheel and asking the driver to kill the ignition with the key as part of the exit requirement. We will be using both door open and door closed scenarios to see how everyone does.

There are a lot of little things that get overlooked when building a car that will slow you down when you need to get out in a hurry and I think we may find a few more after this exercise. We will share the video and our experiences so hopefully we can pass along some lessons learned.

Thanks.... Sean

 
Page 1 of 2 1  2  next » 
 

   Close Topic   Feature Topic   Move Topic   Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic | Subscribe To Topic
Hop To: