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Author Topic: Halo Seat/Safety Part II
rhart Verified Driver
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Year : 94
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Can any of you bail out thru the window with one?
I tried with my wife timing me. Best laugh she's had in a year.
Yes, I removed the wing window and it is not even close.

A thought to precipitate comments... I'm thinking you want the left side of the halo to slow down momentum of the head moving towards the intrusion (or away from the rebound therefrom). But taking that out of the equation you do have the upper bar right there 1/8" away. If the left side of the halo was removed you might be able to make it out the window. I'm convinced halos are safer to much safer but perhaps a fire suppression system is a wise addendum to the halo seat.

Keith in WA Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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quote:
Originally posted by rhart:
...you do have the upper bar right there 1/8" away...

Throw the idea of the roll bars containing your head and reducing impact forces right out the window.

1) Most impacts are at odd angles so the target zone of anything to contain your head should account for the fact it could be travelling fwd, aft, and side to side. You want a wide target. Your neck being attached to the bottom of your head will mean a fwdish impact will make your head rotate down. Once your head rotates fwd and down, the roll cage bars are in an entirely different place relative to your head.

2) Anything that is going to be used to contain your head should have some give in it. The bar, even with the padding, doesn't have much give in it.

From what I've seen dealing with aircraft seat certification day in and out, when trying to reduce the impact forces due to a head strike there are 2 dominant principles... 1) The farther the head travels before striking something, the more energy there is when it strikes. 2) The strike zone should be pliable rather than rigid so the decelleration on the head is decreased.

Contact with the roll cage is something you want to avoid, not something you want to count on to contain your head. [nope]

--------------------
Keith Novak
(Will work for tires)

G. Davis Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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How dd you try to get out?

I can get out, even with the wing window, and a HANS, but I end up on my back.

It is necessary to get the steering wheel off, but after that I just pivot and bail.

--------------------
--------------------

Glenn Davis

rhart Verified Driver
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Keith
I notice you seem to know a good bit about this. What do you have for a seat and safety in general?

Glenn
I'm guessing you do no have a halo seat. Right?

Keith in WA Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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rhart,

Working extensively with FAA certification I deal with occupant restraint and fireworthiness day in and out. They're two subjects I chime in a lot about because...well I deal with them for a living and have for some time now. That said, while I know a lot about occupant protection, I'm not necessarily a poster boy for safety myself. I've been a crash test dummy a few times and know my way around an ER pretty well. [Smile]

I don't actually have a halo seat in my car but my next seat will probably be one. I'm about 6" 180# though so I'm in the sweet spot when it comes to body sizes and I know I can get out the window in one hell of a hurry when needed.

I use a USRP seat, G-force 3 inch belts, a G-force mesh window net (2 layers of mesh), Safecraft center net, IO port back brace, and a DefNder. The DefNder really restricts head motion to virtually nothing the way the big metal bars sit above your shoulders. Kind of claustaphobic at first but after a couple laps I've never noticed it. If I were to re-outfit my car today I'd change some of the equipment based on what I know now.

The biggest thing that my setup has going for it WRT safety is the great care I took installing everything properly. It took many hours to get my nets, belts, seat, back brace, etc. set up properly. The seat and dash came out many times during the process. It would probably take at least an hour walking someone through my car to explain why various things are set up exactly the way they are.

The best gear in the world isn't worth a damn if it's not used properly. Equipment is usually designed to fit a wide range of body types from a small woman to a large man. It's not optimized for a single size person. Since I'm the only one who drives my car, my gear is set up exclusively for me, placing all the important bits right where they need to be for my specific body and seating arrangement. Most of it is very subtle but took a lot of thought and time to get it right. Some of the subtle stuff actually makes a world of difference when you see testing videos and data.

The end result though is impressive. My seat is very secure. I'm very secure in the seat, and my head can't really go anywhere.

--------------------
Keith Novak
(Will work for tires)

skrzastek
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quote:
Originally posted by G. Davis:
How dd you try to get out?

I can get out, even with the wing window, and a HANS, but I end up on my back.

It is necessary to get the steering wheel off, but after that I just pivot and bail.

Glenn, what seat do you have?
(in the market for a halo seat...)

--------------------
#91 SSM

G. Davis Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Actually, I have the big fat halo seat...

4009WHR by Racetech.

If you want to get out of a Miata in style, then I don't recommend it.

With the door closed I go out with my left side toward the ground and pretty much need to land on my left shoulder. It seems like a pretty good trade for the safety it provides.

--------------------
--------------------

Glenn Davis

Keith in WA Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Fortunately, getting out gracefully in an emergency isn't a priority. When I thought the defication had hit the occilation and I shot myself out the window I'm pretty sure I scrambled away the 1st few feet on all fours. [yep]

--------------------
Keith Novak
(Will work for tires)

B Wilson Verified Driver Series Champ
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Again, all the halo seats I've seen installed in a SM have the same flaw, and that is on the left side, your head will hit the top cage bar, and unless there is some real distortion of the neck, the left halo will never come into play. I hate to see everyone spend big bucks on this thinking it will work and be dissapointed with the results. Like Keith says, "The best gear in the world isn't worth a damn if it's not used properly"...

Keith, lets talk to Sean about a solution at the next race.

-bw

--------------------
Bruce Wilson
2010 Oregon Region Champ
2010 Monte Shelton Driver of the Year
2010 25 Hours of Thunderhill E3 and Under 2 liter Overall Champion
Oregon Region SM Class Advisor

Mike Colangelo Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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quote:
Originally posted by G. Davis:
Actually, I have the big fat halo seat...

4009WHR by Racetech.

Glenn,

How do you like the 4009WHR? Does it accommodate a HANS well? Any issue with the shoulder belt holes being too low or too high? I have a somewhat long torso, despite being 5'7.5". Thanks in advance!

BTW, this is for a CRX which is quite a bit roomier than an SM.

Keith in WA Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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quote:
Originally posted by B Wilson:

Keith, lets talk to Sean about a solution at the next race.

-bw

You bet. I have a couple ideas. They may not be workable but they may spawn workable ones.

--------------------
Keith Novak
(Will work for tires)

skrzastek
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quote:
Originally posted by G. Davis:
Actually, I have the big fat halo seat...

4009WHR by Racetech.

If you want to get out of a Miata in style, then I don't recommend it.

With the door closed I go out with my left side toward the ground and pretty much need to land on my left shoulder. It seems like a pretty good trade for the safety it provides.

If you don't mind I may come poke around your set up at VIR this weekend.

--------------------
#91 SSM

G. Davis Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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quote:
Originally posted by Mike Colangelo:
quote:
Originally posted by G. Davis:
Actually, I have the big fat halo seat...

4009WHR by Racetech.

Glenn,

How do you like the 4009WHR? Does it accommodate a HANS well? Any issue with the shoulder belt holes being too low or too high? I have a somewhat long torso, despite being 5'7.5". Thanks in advance!

BTW, this is for a CRX which is quite a bit roomier than an SM.

The seat is great, other than the installation difficulties in the Miata. The belts are a little low, but that is a cage issue for me. I could have leaned back a bit more, too.

--------------------
--------------------

Glenn Davis

G. Davis Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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quote:
Originally posted by skrzastek:
quote:
Originally posted by G. Davis:
Actually, I have the big fat halo seat...

4009WHR by Racetech.

If you want to get out of a Miata in style, then I don't recommend it.

With the door closed I go out with my left side toward the ground and pretty much need to land on my left shoulder. It seems like a pretty good trade for the safety it provides.

If you don't mind I may come poke around your set up at VIR this weekend.
Come on by. I guess if I wasn't clear before, the steering wheel needs to come off before I bail.

--------------------
--------------------

Glenn Davis

rhart Verified Driver
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I've got the the Sparco ProADV halo seat and am using a defnder H&N. 6'1" 180 lbs.
I've removed the wing window and still have lots of trouble bailing.(Maybe it is the too expensive and too baggy Sparco suit...)I'll try again today. Meanwhile I'm ordering the 6 nozzle fire system to give my scrawny butt some extra moments to bail. I guess one of the beauties of the halo seat is not having to have a center net to slow exit thru the pass. door if needed.

Bruce Wilson...Keith in WA I believe is correct. When the head takes flight the halo seat may still save it since it will (depending on the hit) be moving down and forward. So the upper side bar may not come into play after all.

gwaronlawn
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Can we use this post to compile a list and reviews of all the available head restraint / halo seats out there and how they fit in the car from people who have these seats installed? And are there any of these that generally don't work in an SM?

Racetech 4009HR
Sparco Pro ADV
Sparco Circuit
Sparco Circuit Pro
Others?

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_ _________ _
Ryan Wellman

Gibscreen Verified Driver Series Champ
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Racetech 4009 WHR (wide version).

Fits as long as you bang in the suspension tunnel at the right front corner of the seat.

--------------------
Rob Gibson
RJ Racing
2010 NASA Nationals TTE Champion
2008/2009 WERC Champion
2007 NASA SoCal SM Champion
rjracing.net
Weekend-Racer.com

Mark Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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In order of difficulty for the install the ones I've dealt with are listed below. The order also corresponds pretty much to the driver size unfortunately:

- Sparco Circuit
- Recaro HANS
- Sparco Circuit Pro/ADV
- Racetech 4009HR

The best way to mount any of these type seats is to mount the seat first and then build the cage around them. The HR seats are tall and wide on top which means they impinge on the cage in different areas than non HR seats. This can be expensive or impossible to adjust after the fact.

--------------------
Mark
http://www.ironcanyonmotorsports.com

springfielddyno Verified Driver
Runoffs "MOVE OF THE RACE" (headlights)

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Year : 96, 93
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quote:
Originally posted by B Wilson:
Again, all the halo seats I've seen installed in a SM have the same flaw, and that is on the left side, your head will hit the top cage bar, and unless there is some real distortion of the neck, the left halo will never come into play. I hate to see everyone spend big bucks on this thinking it will work and be dissapointed with the results. Like Keith says, "The best gear in the world isn't worth a damn if it's not used properly"...

Keith, lets talk to Sean about a solution at the next race.

-bw

i don't have that issue, but i do my own cages... My downtube is really tight against the top, and i get the seat mounted way inboard. i use a huge gussett between the main hoop and left down tube. the gusset is positioned so the halo is pratically touching it... It's not ideal, but way better than hitting the steel tube... I use the 4009 WHR. In a hit, the helment would hit the halo which would hit the gussett... It always takes me a whole day to do the seat right...

--------------------
Regards,
Sam H.
www.springfielddyno.com

B Wilson Verified Driver Series Champ
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Sam,

I assume you massage the tunnel quite a bit to make this work?

I don't think it's physically possible to get the ideal solution in a Miata. What is probably more important is that the restraint (padded bar, HR, or LH net) is at the mid level of the helmet as documented by Safety Solutions.

-b

--------------------
Bruce Wilson
2010 Oregon Region Champ
2010 Monte Shelton Driver of the Year
2010 25 Hours of Thunderhill E3 and Under 2 liter Overall Champion
Oregon Region SM Class Advisor

Danny Steyn Verified Driver
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Racetech 4009HR

had it in two '99's no problem - tunnel needs some work

AWESOME Seat!

--------------------
Danny
http://www.dannysteyn.com
http://www.adeptstudios.com
OPM Autosports | Traqmate | Rossini Racing Engines
2010 June Sprints Champ, 2010 ARRC SMX Champ
2009 SARRC Champ, 2009 SEDiv ECR Champ, 2009 FES Champ
2008 SEDiv ECR Champ

tLinder
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Sparco Circuit Pro in 91 and 99. Highly recommend removing the driver's side vent window for ER exit. [thumbsup]

Keith in WA Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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quote:
Originally posted by B Wilson:
I don't think it's physically possible to get the ideal solution in a Miata. What is probably more important is that the restraint (padded bar, HR, or LH net) is at the mid level of the helmet as documented by Safety Solutions.

Ideally, yes. If the point of impact is at the CG of your head, the mass of your head isn't trying to twist over or under what it's hitting. Another way to avoid that twisting effect is for your head to hit two points.

For example, if the top of your helmet hits the cage bar it wants to bend under the bar. If it also hits something a few inches below that, it distributes the impact and help prevents the twisting action.

If it hits something too far below that though, all bets are off. The required protection area of the helmet is only down to about eyeball level so how the helmet stands up is an unknown.

--------------------
Keith Novak
(Will work for tires)

springfielddyno Verified Driver
Runoffs "MOVE OF THE RACE" (headlights)

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quote:
Originally posted by B Wilson:
Sam,

I assume you massage the tunnel quite a bit to make this work?

I don't think it's physically possible to get the ideal solution in a Miata. What is probably more important is that the restraint (padded bar, HR, or LH net) is at the mid level of the helmet as documented by Safety Solutions.

-b

Yes, you're right... tunnel needs some (plenty) love... I agree on the point of impact and that's why i use the cage gussett to keep the seat from going under the cage in a hit..

--------------------
Regards,
Sam H.
www.springfielddyno.com

WHB
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quote:
I guess one of the beauties of the halo seat is not having to have a center net to slow exit thru the pass. door if needed.
Is this true? Considering how far forward the head/body moves in a crash, I imagine it's possible in a right-front impact to move "out" of the halo. In such a case, would a center net not still be helpful in guiding one's body back into the seat?

--------------------
Charlie B

J. Douglas
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I put a Racetech HR in my 1.6 last week. 3 hours and 2 large hammers.... she's in there.

J. Douglas
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I wonder if putting an escape hatch[funny car style] would be a good safety add on for us? Could be done cheap. Other wise some of us would have to keep some "magic dust" in the glove box to make us small in order to get out the window.

rhart Verified Driver
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Or perhaps find a Russian Mig ejection seat in a surplus sale....

G. Davis Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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quote:
Originally posted by DAL_MOBILE:
Highly recommend removing the driver's side vent window for ER exit. [thumbsup]

I have thought about doing this. Does anybody know of a full window solution for rain and/or storage. I'm guessing I could fab a plexi window, but the contour would be absent.

--------------------
--------------------

Glenn Davis

skrzastek
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quote:
Originally posted by B Wilson:
Again, all the halo seats I've seen installed in a SM have the same flaw, and that is on the left side, your head will hit the top cage bar, and unless there is some real distortion of the neck, the left halo will never come into play.

What about using a left sided net like Grand-AM to be between your head and the cage?

--------------------
#91 SSM

Frank Todaro
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quote:
Originally posted by B Wilson:
Again, all the halo seats I've seen installed in a SM have the same flaw, and that is on the left side, your head will hit the top cage bar, and unless there is some real distortion of the neck, the left halo will never come into play. I hate to see everyone spend big bucks on this thinking it will work and be dissapointed with the results. Like Keith says, "The best gear in the world isn't worth a damn if it's not used properly"...

Keith, lets talk to Sean about a solution at the next race.

-bw

I don't have this problem. I have the Sparco Circuit pro. I brought up the seat at the time they built the cage. They put me in the seat, in the car, and build the cage. the top bar runs just above but not inward of the left part of the top of the seat. Mark McMann in Akron did the cage.

--------------------
Frank
Member: No Pain Racing

   

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