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Author Topic: How much does HP and TQ mean in regard to lap time
Drago Verified Driver Made Donation to Website Series Champ
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We often find ourselves talking and debating HP and TQ. Just curious what people think 10 hp and 7 ft lbs does to lap times at Road America. A 4 mile track, arguably the biggest HP track in the country?

Same setup, same driver, same conditions.

--------------------
Jim Drago
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Have you setup Bosch Lapsim to give you an answer?

For simple changes like weight and HP, it give me what look like accurate #s. Also, being a sim it's perfectly repeatable.

-Kyle

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I was asked to drive someone's car that was down on power earlier this year. We were running our hp track configuration with two long straights. Not the same car, but I was 2 seconds slower than my car. I'm guessing it was closer to 5-7hp down on power. The setup on the car felt good, but that's probably always the case when you're going slower [Smile]

-bw

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Bruce Wilson
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David Dewhurst
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Blinkie, [rolling on floor laughin] it was great chatting with you this weekend. Great job re-setting the car & driving on Sunday.

Shouldn't we be saying, "How much does TQ and HP mean in regard to lap time at Road America?" TQ gets you there and HP keeps you there. [Wink]

--------------------
Have Fun [Wink]

David Dewhurst
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Dragey;
in a 1.6, 1.8 or '99 ? ... all will have different spreads under your scenarios.
also; less 10 hp & 7 tq from your present 128/117 or from my soon to be 118/103 ??
too many variables but should not be more than 1.5 sec same vs same at RA.

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I thought he said same driver same car, so it shouldn't matter

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Just an observation: People with pro motors often claim that they're only worth a second or so on a 2 minute track.

Since there is less than 10rwhp/7torque difference between a typical crate motor and a typical pro motor, I would think that 10rwhp/7torque would make more than 2.25 seconds of difference on a 4 mile road course.

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quote:
Originally posted by pat slattery:
I thought he said same driver same car, so it shouldn't matter

Pat;
yes, same car, same driver, same conditions.
But, in a 1.6 same as above or a '99 same as above, that hp & tq difference will create a different spread in lap times.
he did mean a '99 btw ...

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10 hp is 8.3% increase on a motor with 120 hp. So, if the winner turned a 2:44, with an 8.3% increase, you would be looking at 13.8 seconds. This, of course, means nothing.

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This poll should end up providing a group hypothesis (or what looks to be 2...). Is there some data to prove the validity of this hypothesis????


edit: I'll be at the Sprints in a 1.6L. I'd be more than happy to be a guinea pig here and collect/share the data. Run practice/qual 1 with my current tired old motor and then run a well prepped strong motor for Q2/race.... I just need a motor and some help swapping [Big Grin]

--------------------
Ben Schaut
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Drago Verified Driver Made Donation to Website Series Champ
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Yes there is..I ran my car less plate and 25 lbs this weekend in STU.. all else was the same.. so don't cheat. Take a fair guess, I will say my guess was way wrong.
Jim

[ 05-24-2010, 06:46 PM: Message edited by: Drago ]

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Jim Drago
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Colin MacLean Verified Driver
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Good stuff Jim, I'll be interested to see what the result was.

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Colin MacLean
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quote:
Originally posted by Drago:
I ran my car less plate in STU.. Jim

Roger Burdette did precisely this at Road Atlanta this weekend to get more tracktime. In one of your '99's

[*] He pulled the Plate
[*] He switched to Hoosiers from RA-1's - generally faster than RA-1's
[*] He did not remove weight

I will let him chime in regarding the precise time difference, but I can tell you there was VERY LITTLE difference.

--------------------
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MPR22
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My guess it about .75 to 1 second per lap all by himself.

Now put two +10 hp cars together and let the guy with the -10 try to follow. I suspect once they get away from him they put 2+ seconds a lap on him even if he had a similarly powered drafting partner.

I am guessing at high speeds the drag created is quite a bit more than a mere 10 hp can overcome. Put those two +10 hp cars in a draft togeter and knock that drag coeficent down and boom they check out.

--------------------
Michael Ross

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maybe it was just my Hoosiers but I was always faster on ra-1s than with hoosier sm6s. I had about the same cornering G but the hoosiers sucked down the straights.

I still think its 1.5-2.5 seconds and thats on a 2 mile track, so 4 miles, who knows.

Kyle

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Half a second a lap over 10 laps is.. umm.. I think the leader is out there somewhere...

Oh, there he is.

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I got a 1.6 with 110 hp 104 tq I know 2 guys with pro engines one dynoed at same place as me had 10 hp more, runs about 9 secs. a lap faster. I know he is a better driver than I am you say how much faster the car is than mine. Another driver is 6 mph on every straight at sebring faster than me and 7-8 at daytonas front straight even more in a draft than I can get in a draft 130 to my 118. Another person 9 secs.a lap faster. I can not stay in the draft of a top car I am guessing their car is 4 secs. a lap faster. I am running as fast or slightly faster as the previous owner of my car. Both tracks are about 3.65 miles.

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quote:
Originally posted by disquek:
Have you setup Bosch Lapsim to give you an answer?

For simple changes like weight and HP, it give me what look like accurate #s. Also, being a sim it's perfectly repeatable.

-Kyle

+1 simulate it. I'd guess it's over 2 seconds, but I tend to get killed at horsepower tracks. That might be throwing my perception off some.

(since you brought it up Jim, I am guessing it's gonna be small)

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Rich Verified Driver
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If you're winning, 0 seconds. If you're losing and have verified you're down on power, 3 seconds. If you're losing and think you're down on power, but have no proof, 7 seconds.

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Rich Wiese

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quote:
Originally posted by Rich:
If you're winning, 0 seconds. If you're losing and have verified you're down on power, 3 seconds. If you're losing and think you're down on power, but have no proof, 7 seconds.

I think we have a winner [Smile] [Big Grin]

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Jim Drago
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Chris Haldeman
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how long do we have to wait for the answer?

Drago Verified Driver Made Donation to Website Series Champ
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If you want the answer, pm me,otherwise lets let it run a few days or until it dies out
Jim

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Jim Drago
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B(Kuch) Kucera 45 Verified Driver
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This would have to be done with same driver,same car,same day,and same track condition's to be accurate!

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Chris Haldeman
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to my knowledge it was.by drago at ra same day ect...

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quote:
Originally posted by B(Kuch) Kucera 45:
This would have to be done with same driver,same car,same day,and same track condition's to be accurate!

For Roger at Atlanta this weekend sessions were within 30 mins, same car, same driver, same conditions

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Dennis Valet
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Ask the SRF racers how much a lap the wacky fuel got them at the sprints last year (hint, an insane amount).....that can't be more than a few horsepower.

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quote:
Originally posted by Danny Steyn:
quote:
Originally posted by B(Kuch) Kucera 45:
This would have to be done with same driver,same car,same day,and same track condition's to be accurate!

For Roger at Atlanta this weekend sessions were within 30 mins, same car, same driver, same conditions
[thumbsup]

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Bob
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I don't think I want to know. The way it stands today, I can rationalize my motor probably costs me a couple seconds, my suspension setup isn't the best. Lets say another 1.5 there. I don't get the trick shaved tires. That has to be good for at least another second. When you add all that kind of stuff up, suddenly I'm a world class driver with lousy prep! [Big Grin]

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Keith Novak
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quote:
Originally posted by cintibob:
I got a 1.6 with 110 hp 104 tq I know 2 guys with pro engines one dynoed at same place as me had 10 hp more, runs about 9 secs. a lap faster. I know he is a better driver than I am you say how much faster the car is than mine. Another driver is 6 mph on every straight at sebring faster than me and 7-8 at daytonas front straight even more in a draft than I can get in a draft 130 to my 118. Another person 9 secs.a lap faster. I can not stay in the draft of a top car I am guessing their car is 4 secs. a lap faster. I am running as fast or slightly faster as the previous owner of my car. Both tracks are about 3.65 miles.

This guy must have +10 hp and 7 tq, because THAT was hard to follow!

B Wilson Verified Driver Series Champ
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quote:
Originally posted by Keith in WA:
I don't think I want to know. The way it stands today, I can rationalize my motor probably costs me a couple seconds, my suspension setup isn't the best. Lets say another 1.5 there. I don't get the trick shaved tires. That has to be good for at least another second. When you add all that kind of stuff up, suddenly I'm a world class driver with lousy prep! [Big Grin]

Keith, let's talk sometime. All those things get you a couple tenths. This is amateur racing, which means we have plenty of time to become a world class driver (or at least a region class driver). There is a proven progession to making this happen over time, which I'm always happy to share with anyone.

-b

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Bruce Wilson
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In our first race ever with 106hp/101tq we were 2.5 sec. off the top 5 cars average lap speed(2.9 mile course). Assuming they were getting everything out of their 118-125hp cars and we have room for improved driving skills...I would say not as much as you would think! [Smile]

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-RA


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IMHO a fast driver in a slow car will always go faster than a slow driver in a fast car.....

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Tony Senese
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I'm guessing between .892 and 1.263?

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Tim Jacobs
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I kind of tried this 3 years ago.

See thread-

http://forum.specmiata.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?/topic/43/3290/2.html#000054

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Matthew F. Davis
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Matt
While this was not the original intent, the intent was to try and win STU,which I did and couldn't with a plate in. For many of the reasons people complain about, lap times weren't so far off, but I couldn't pass anywhere or make a pass stick.

My experiment, had far less variables,but I'm sure still far from perfect. But it was me, same day, same car, same track, same tires, exact same setup and at a track that I feel I can drive in my sleep at this point. When I get ca back, I will download the data and compare actual and TBL and see what I get, I obviously know the actual.

Jim

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Jim Drago
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Drago - will you be able to match your data with video to determine how much impact there was on your fast laps from drafting and/or coasting/over-braking/non-ideal line due to cars in front of you?

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Ben Schaut
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no, new video camera out smarted me [Big Grin]

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Jim Drago
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My unmassaged stock crate motor runs about a second per lap faster at NHMS (@1.5 miles) with no plate or weight (over 100#) and the same RA1s.

--------------------
-Cy
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well answers were all over the place, While I don't claim that it is a perfect analysis, it is as good as I could get and I feel like I drove pretty well and pretty similar in both classes.. Even with the blinker on in both races! Becoming a trademark. [Big Grin]

Time difference was 1.2 seconds... My guess would have been over 2 seconds... roughly .1 second per HP, results are on My laps

Jim


5 to .75 seconds 8% (7)

.75 to 1.0 seconds 16% (14)

1.0 to 1.25 seconds 17% (15)

1.25 to 1.5 seconds 9% (8)

1.5 seconds to 1.75 seconds 8% (7)

1.75 to 2.0 seconds 12% (10)

2.0 to 2.25 seconds 13% (11)

2.25 or more 16% (14)

--------------------
Jim Drago
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Thanks for posting, Jim!

I was thinking right around a second for our tracks here in NorCal (2.5 to 3.0 miles) and extrapolated and guessed right!

When you say that you couldn't get by or couldn't make passes stick, what sort of cars were you running against?

Cheers,

Dean

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The cars I had to race were a Z4 and an MX5 cup car, the rest were slower and no "true" STU cars there or it wouldn't have mattered. When I ran SSB last year, I could run similar lap times to Z4, but could not race them.


I also would say, it may be entirely possible that this 1.2 seconds on a 4 mile track may be still close on shorter track, could be that even 10 more Hp wasn't enough to push the car much faster on long straights. But in small bull ring like limerock or something, maybe it helps just as much? This is just my experience at this track. Nothing scientific there, just some of my rambling
Jim

--------------------
Jim Drago
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doesn't the plate just choke off top end ? whereas a pro motor has more power everywhere.

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quote:
Originally posted by Drago:
The cars I had to race were a Z4 and an MX5 cup car, the rest were slower and no "true" STU cars there or it wouldn't have mattered. When I ran SSB last year, I could run similar lap times to Z4, but could not race them.


I also would say, it may be entirely possible that this 1.2 seconds on a 4 mile track may be still close on shorter track, could be that even 10 more Hp was enough to push the car much faster on long straights. But in small bull ring like limerock or something, maybe it helps just as much? Nothing scientific there, just some of my rambling
Jim

Do you think you could have run even faster if you had more time to optimize your driving for the increased power?

I know that I pulled my plate for some mixed class race after SM and I did not get much faster. Then again, I have a bigger plate.

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Jim,

You show up around the 2:00 mark
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g73q0GfqqbM

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Becoming a trademark. [Wink] [Wink] [Wink]

[rolling on floor laughin]

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Have Fun [Wink]

David Dewhurst
CenDiv
Milwaukee Region
Spec Miata #14

Jim Venable
Member

Region: NW
Year : 90
Posts: 54
Status: Offline
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Bob,

Very nice video quality. What system is it?

Jim
"Nice Guy Jim Racing"

Drago Verified Driver Made Donation to Website Series Champ
MegaModerator

Region: mid south
Car #: 2
Year : 1999
Posts: 4275
Status: Offline
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quote:
Originally posted by Sean Yepez:
Do you think you could have run even faster if you had more time to optimize your driving for the increased power?

[/QB]

I don't think so, all I had to do was change the braking points a little and I picked that up in a few laps. That and little more feathering of throttle threw the carousel, other than that, you really couldnt even tell the plate was out. Maybe hadI beenaround other SM's, I would have noticed more?
Jim

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Jim Drago
East Street Auto Salvage
jdrago1@aol.com
2006-2007 Mid-West Division
07,09 June Sprints Champion

EAST STREET RACING

Zauskycop Verified Driver
Member

Region: Chicago
Car #: 45
Year : 1991
Posts: 115
Status: Offline
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Blinker works... ;-)

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Tracy Ramsey
Team Blenderblaster

Monkeywrench
Member

Region: SJR
Posts: 128
Status: Offline
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I have no idea. A HP racer posted it on the prodforum.


Jim, how much faster do you think you could have gone without the right blinker loading up your charging system and sapping engine power? [Smash]

nice driving btw

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-Bob Adams

Drago Verified Driver Made Donation to Website Series Champ
MegaModerator

Region: mid south
Car #: 2
Year : 1999
Posts: 4275
Status: Offline
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In all seriousness, that dam blinker is on every session [boggled]

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Jim Drago
East Street Auto Salvage
jdrago1@aol.com
2006-2007 Mid-West Division
07,09 June Sprints Champion

EAST STREET RACING

 
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