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Author Topic: The white elephant in room
Drago Verified Driver Made Donation to Website Series Champ
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Well, we have it again... We have $30 gallon spec fuel. For certain, 8 of the top 10 cars qualified at the Sprints were running exotic fuel, including myself.

It starts the same way every time. In my case, I found out one of my most serious competitors was running fuel, which forced us to run as well.
When all is said and done, we ran .3 or so better a lap at best. Average fuel bill for any of us that ran it was $450 for the weekend. This is crazy.

We need a spec fuel at all thbigger races at a minimum. While I am sure many won't want it as they run true pump and don't want to pay the extra few bucks.. You lose 3 hp to anyone of us that already run it, besides the advantage we probably already have on car.

At the front, we had spec fuel, it was just a really expensive one [Smile] I will continue to run it as I long as I suspect others are.

On a side note, this fuel is not something that just "passes" it is 100% legal, just expensive. I spent the $250 to test it

Opinions?

--------------------
Jim Drago
East Street Auto Salvage
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Sealed Fuel Cans and Chuck Norris the guard!

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I think that most of the people that were running it would agree that at the end of the day the only person who made out was the person selling the fuel. From what I was told by the person doing the selling he had it for another class that outlawed it but it was still legal for SM; so he sold it to unload it! Still not right in my opinion but it is what it is. What bothers me the most is that those same drivers that have accused others of being on fuel were in fact on fuel themselves at the Sprints. It is clear to most in Spec Miata that pump gas means pump gas and not pumped out of a 55 gallon drum.
Now what to do about it? Drago you know better then anybody what can and cannot be done; so what are our choices. Also who knows beforehand what they are testing the fuel for. If people know in advance all you have to do is formulate the fuel around it; which is what happened again. Oh! The fact that the top 8 want to use the excuse that they did it because somebody else did it is just not going to fly. I would not accept that excuse from my son so forget about accepting it from grown men. If only one person used it and the others did not the driver may have won but it would have come out that he was the only one on fuel and he alone would look like a complete dick but now it is clear that you 8 have screwed over the rest of the competitors at the sprints. And Drago although you are a friend of mine the fact that you help write the rules and than use fuel anyway is at best inexcusable.

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Drago - are you saying that the fuel that was used up front at the Sprints will pass THIS???


CLUB RACING TECHNICAL BULLETIN
DATE: May 20, 2010
NUMBER: TB 10-06
FROM: Club Racing Board
TO: Competitors, Stewards, and Scrutineers
SUBJECT: Errors and Omissions, Competition Adjustments, Clarifications, and Classifications
All changes are effective 6/1/10 unless otherwise noted.

4. #1268 (CRB) Runoffs Supps: Fuel
The following are the fuel requirements for the 2010 Runoffs®:

9.12. Fuel: All cars shall use fuel purchased from the track. SSB, SSC and SM are limited to 93 octane unleaded gasoline. ...


(edit: truncated to reduce babble - thanks for clarifying Drago)

--------------------
Ben Schaut
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quote:
Originally posted by Drago:
Average fuel bill for any of us that ran it was $450 for the weekend. This is crazy.

It's interesting to see where people draw their lines.

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Jamie
The fuel is every bit as legal as any pump gas. It is not something that passes a test etc. It has zero of the banned substances. It does pass the GC test.
As far as me, I went to win, I went less a remapped computer, (2 hp in my case) one of the very few. Fuel puts me down another 3 hp.. No way I am winning 5 HP down. I went with one of the few "legal" cars out there. If my options were stay to run 5 hp down and win "SM2 Sprints" class, I would chose to stay home. [Big Grin]

--------------------
Jim Drago
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Runoffs fuel is not equal to Sprints fuel. Except maybe in a testing lab!?!? I say let them run what they want if it passes. Doesn't mean I'm gonna run it, but.....

db

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I for one didnt know of this spec fuel and ran 93 octane with 10% ethanol from Marshalls in Elkart Lake. Qual 10th and finshed 5th. Ended up 4th after disqual of Slattery. Just like Jim said seems pretty high for gas in sm and probably is good stuff, but do we need to go there to get that much of an advantage. Knowing this might have changed the results of the sprints. Iwas turning the fastest laps in the rain until it started getting dry, then got taught.My opinion is that we run track fuel or an approved fuel from scca and that everybody must run. But after all is said and done lets keep it cheap because we are already pinching pennies.

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Tough spot given the current state of the class. These fuels will be gone for the runoffs as they will check/spec the fuel there. I'm surprised that they didn't do the same and spec the fuel for the sprints, but nothing surprises me these days.

Only way to check fuel is to police it ourselves. People are going to run it until they are protested and fuel is checked. I would like to put $5-10 up at every race I enter and make sure the top 10 are all tested at each race. The problem is VP SR-1 and others will pass the standard trackside test, so unless we write a rule that specifies track 93 or the nearest gas station (posted in supps) as the spec fuel to get samples from to send for spectometry there is really no way of checking.

Personally, if someone wants to pay $400 to beat me at a national race weekend that is fine with me. However, if they do it at the sprints and runoffs they should be tossed. (I know, I know before you roast me that there is idealogically no difference) We need to spec fuels for big weekends with a failsafe way to check them. The fuels that are spec'd should have an additive that can be quantified as well as confirming with the spectometry.

Just my 2 cents.

Mat

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Spec fuel can only work at certain races like the Sprints or Runoffs®. There are way to many events to supply "spec" fuel at all of them. Trust me I know what it cost to supply a few drums for Trans Am last year when they came to Mid-Ohio as I was the RE that had to deal with the fuel bill when the drivers didn't want to pay...

db

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quote:
Originally posted by Nigel Stu:
Drago - are you saying that the fuel that was used up front at the Sprints will pass THIS???


4. #1268 (CRB) Runoffs Supps: Fuel
The following are the fuel requirements for the 2010 Runoffs®:


Runoffs fuel is spec... I would like to see Sprints and all super sweep races spec as well, at a minimum.

--------------------
Jim Drago
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I will agree with Jamie that I sure wish this had not happened. This is ECU's all over again. But different.

Unlike the ECU's this is perfectly legal. You have to run fuel designed to a certain spec. If this fuel passes, then it is legal. This is unlike ECU's because that was modifying a part that is specificly mentioned in the rules that is not allowed to be modified.

So what do we do?

At smaller events, there really isn't much we can do. We can not require a spec fuel unless there is a supply of that fuel. Since most tracks do not have street gas available on track, we would have to spec race gas. At $8-9.00 per gallon.

At big races such as the Sprints, Runoffs etc. we should spec the same fuel as the SRF cars. They had spec fuel at Road America! Having 50 SRF and 50 SM using the same gas would definatly make the gas man happy.

FYI, Burdzy ran Road America 98 octane race gas in qualifying. He ran the same gas as all my cars for the race. Citgo, from the station down the street.

Dave

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Jamie Tucker Series Champ

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quote:
Originally posted by Drago:
Jamie
The fuel is every bit as legal as any pump gas. It is not something that passes a test etc. It has zero of the banned substances. It does pass the GC test.
As far as me, I went to win, I went less a remapped computer, (2 hp in my case) one of the very few. Fuel puts me down another 3 hp.. No way I am winning 5 HP down. I went with one of the few "legal" cars out there. If my options were stay to run 5 hp down and win "SM2 Sprints" class, I would chose to stay home. [Big Grin]

Drago I understand it was legal and technically no one did anything wrong but you know as well as I do that it is BS. It is unfair to the others that have no access to such fuel and therefore are at a bigger disadvantage. You have been in this class from the start so I am not telling you anything you do not know already but SM drivers want to be as equal as possible and when guys show up with fuel it hurts the class overall. I also know you want to win but is that really more important than principle or our class? Maybe I am out of line on this issue and if so I am sorry. I also understand what you meant about your car being 100% legal and not wanting to give away even more power. You tried to stop the ECUs and that went nowhere, tried to stop the fuel and people are still on it; what is next? The next thing we know there will be SM3 for guys who want to run pump gas. It will not stop!
However I fully agree with you about a spec fuel or any other things that keep the cars close. How does that work? What can we do to get it going?

--------------------
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quote:
Originally posted by Drago:
quote:
Originally posted by Nigel Stu:
Drago - are you saying that the fuel that was used up front at the Sprints will pass THIS???


4. #1268 (CRB) Runoffs Supps: Fuel
The following are the fuel requirements for the 2010 Runoffs®:


Runoffs fuel is spec... I would like to see Sprints and all super sweep races spec as well, at a minimum.
Agreed - I'm not up front (yet), but I'd like to get there as economically as possible. I'd rather be spending an extra couple hundred $s a weekend on track time than on fuel.


FWIW, I ran practice and Q1 on the 93 no-ethanol SRF spec fuel - it was $6 per gallon. Is this what will likely be spec'd for the Runoffs? 2x cost of regular pump gas is a bit high for same octane as the Marathon station, but a heck of a lot better than 10x as much $, transporting enough fuel and not be losing the 2-3 hp.

--------------------
Ben Schaut
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How do "spec fuel" races work, to ensure that all competitors actually use that fuel?

Drago Verified Driver Made Donation to Website Series Champ
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quote:
Originally posted by Jamie Tucker:
[Drago I understand it was legal and technically no one did anything wrong but you know as well as I do that it is BS. It is unfair to the others that have no access to such fuel and therefore are at a bigger disadvantage. You have been in this class from the start so I am not telling you anything you do not know already but SM drivers want to be as equal as possible and when guys show up with fuel it hurts the class overall. I also know you want to win but is that really more important than principle or our class? Maybe I am out of line on this issue and if so I am sorry. I also understand what you meant about your car being 100% legal and not wanting to give away even more power. You tried to stop the ECUs and that went nowhere, tried to stop the fuel and people are still on it; what is next? The next thing we know there will be SM3 for guys who want to run pump gas. It will not stop!
However I fully agree with you about a spec fuel or any other things that keep the cars close. How does that work? What can we do to get it going? [/QB]

Jamie
Lots of things are unfair in racing... We can't go by fair and unfair... Just complaint and non compliant. It isn't fair that you have three identical 99's at your disposal and two or three 1.6 cars and your very own dyno?
I have no problem with anyone gaining any legal advantage they can, which this is. But I do agree, it should be closed if possible. That's why I brought it up. many already complaining that I did.
As far as your opinion, I respect it and have no issue with it at all.

What to do... All we can do realistically, all we can do is run spec fuel in bigger races, maybe Sprints and super sweep events. No way it works Nationally, too many variations and availability in fuels nationwide.

--------------------
Jim Drago
East Street Auto Salvage
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2006-2007 Mid-West Division
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quote:
Originally posted by Mark de Regt:
How do "spec fuel" races work, to ensure that all competitors actually use that fuel?

They really don't. Just like policing ECU's. [Smile] I've heard some pretty funny stories of people running fuel at races where there was solid tech an a spec fuel. When you only get pulled in to tech once - some people are willing to take that risk to move up in qualifying.

In all honesty, the only way it works correctly is to have a Parc Ferme where all the cars come bone dry, fill them up, seal the tanks and hold the cars until they go to grid. Otherwise you have to pull a fuel sample from EVERY car after EVERY timed session.

Its a bunch of garbage to me, but I am not going to show up a a track where 10 cars are running hot gas and expect to be competitive on pump fuel.

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Hell, Drago was a RX7 track day nerd with a ricer exhaust when SM started! [Big Grin] That is what really pisses me off...the SOB made himself in to a top racer in a short period of time.
Jamie I understand your side of the story, but it plays out much better here than at the track. This is racing, or so I am told [Smile] so the guys who have the talent and money win the plaques. Paying for horsepower (even stupid paying) is not illegal or wrong. I am sorry that SM is not the same as it was when we only had 4 cars, but there will always be new ways to have your car prepped and fueled the best.
Spec fuel is a good concept, but other than those big events it is hard to enforce just like several other prep aspects.
As soon as the first car was built there was a race to have the best one before they got on the track. It was subtle things, but it was there. When SM went national the original idea took a big snort of white powder and hasn't stopped since. $40k for a girly car which wins you a wooden plaque (and will probably get hit and run into walls most races) seems to be a ride on the crest of insanity anyway. $30 gas really isn't that much more crazy in the big picture.....but I think it takes a lot of the fun out of it.

--------------------
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Jamie Tucker Series Champ

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quote:
Originally posted by Drago:
quote:
Originally posted by Jamie Tucker:
[Drago I understand it was legal and technically no one did anything wrong but you know as well as I do that it is BS. It is unfair to the others that have no access to such fuel and therefore are at a bigger disadvantage. You have been in this class from the start so I am not telling you anything you do not know already but SM drivers want to be as equal as possible and when guys show up with fuel it hurts the class overall. I also know you want to win but is that really more important than principle or our class? Maybe I am out of line on this issue and if so I am sorry. I also understand what you meant about your car being 100% legal and not wanting to give away even more power. You tried to stop the ECUs and that went nowhere, tried to stop the fuel and people are still on it; what is next? The next thing we know there will be SM3 for guys who want to run pump gas. It will not stop!
However I fully agree with you about a spec fuel or any other things that keep the cars close. How does that work? What can we do to get it going?

Jamie
Lots of things are unfair in racing... We can't go by fair and unfair... Just complaint and non compliant. It isn't fair that you have three identical 99's at your disposal and two or three 1.6 cars and your very own dyno?
I have no problem with anyone gaining any legal advantage they can, which this is. But I do agree, it should be closed if possible. That's why I brought it up. many already complaining that I did.
As far as your opinion, I respect it and have no issue with it at all.

What to do... All we can do realistically, all we can do is run spec fuel in bigger races, maybe Sprints and super sweep events. No way it works Nationally, too many variations and availability in fuels nationwide. [/QB]

I guess that is true! Compliant and non compliant is really the only way to look at it. If there is a way to make it non-compliant that would be great. I am glad you brought up the issue as that is the only way to fix it. I just do not want other drivers to get even more discouraged and leave our class. We have a great bunch of people and I would like to keep it that way.
Thanks.

--------------------
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You want 100% fuel parity .... pump around.

It'll take an extra hour and it'll require about $500 in extra equipment.

There is no other way to be SURE.

-Kyle

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Another nail in the coffin. We CAN do something about it, but we choose not to. The Club doesn't seem to realize that every racer is not well funded, and these same racers despise the concept of "buying your way to the front". So they don't come out to race. The Club seems to think this is a racer problem, but it becomes a Club problem when entries drop to levels that threaten the existance of amateur racing.

If we don't quickly demand a solution to this and other economic problems, the concept of amatuer racing may not remain viable.

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quote:
Originally posted by Connie 62:

If we don't quickly demand a solution to this and other economic problems, the concept of amatuer racing may not remain viable.

Jim, with all due respect, I've raced for 13 years now and its ALWAYS been about the best new trick expensive parts and gadgets. That is what racing is all about. Its half skill/half prep. We've made it this far, a little issue with hot gas isn't going to kill club racing, but it may make it difficult for the front runners to stay front runners.

We raced against kids in karting that showed up with toter homes, professional tuners, engines that no one could get, and 3 karts for one class to "test". This isn't anything new.

I dislike hot gas as much as the next guy, but until someone finds a way to tech and it IT IS TECHED OFTEN, its a part of the game. I've been "money whipped" before and I'll probably be "money whipped again"

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Since the furor over SM2 has died down ( [Smile] ), let's see if I can stir something else up:

How big is the standard SM gas tank? For my example, let's say it's 10 gallons.

What if we put this in the Supps for the ARRC by GRM?

"After final qualifying and prior to the race, the top x (20 sounds like a managable number) cars in the class must present themselves at the track gas pumps and must take on at least 8 gallons of the track's 98-octane unleaded. Fuel tanks will be sealed at that point."

Is this workable from the competitor's standpoint?

Butch Kummer

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No it won't Butch, because of Ballasting reason.

If you have a "big boned, but good looking" guy like myself in an early model car, they will need minimal gas (not 8 gallons).

5 MIGHT be a do-able value. It would be better to have all competitors pump the remaining gas out of the test port and then fill and seal regardless of quantity.

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Butch Kummer
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I just got off the phone with Drago and he agrees (all except the "good looking" part [Wink] ).

How difficult is it to empty the tank through the test port? I'm guessing you finish qualifying with a couple of gallons in the tank, so if you're in the top twenty you bring your car and a dump can to the fuel pumps. Pump the tank dry, then add as much or little as you want from the track's pump. We seal the cap and you're good to go.

I'm thinking the same rules for SMX, SM2, and SSM as well. Yes, you may be paying $8/gal for 5 or 6 gallons of gas instead of $3/gal, but if you KNOW the top twenty in each class are running the same fuel isn't that worth $30 to you?

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To start this just my $.02 and was just some of my experiences in the past. I come from 10 years of motorcycle racing (regional and nationals). Fuel has always been a hot topic as well as "tuning" for a supersport (stock)ish if you will...class. The club came together and made a decent rule that could possibly be implemented in to a class as this.
Run what you want but you need to fall in to the certain guildlines. Actual Min. weight and Max horsepower. Top 5 and choosen others, Come off the track and right to the tech area. Roll right on the scales (as they do in scca) and go straight to the dyno and run it hot. 3-5 pulls and get your Dyno numbers. Same thing after a race, come right in do the same thing and after the dyno you go right to impound to check other misc things. Another thing we did when we ran the buells... it was weight vs. HP calculation. It was cut and dry right there on the dyno and scales. Numbers dont lie...you just need to come up with a way to find a fair number for all to follow...and of course, some way to pay to have a dyno at the track. Again just some of my experiences and thoughts.

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You guys are making this class more and more expensive by the week it seems...

--------------------
-Cy
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Drago Verified Driver Made Donation to Website Series Champ
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quote:
Originally posted by kneedragger302:
It was cut and dry right there on the dyno and scales. Numbers dont lie...

The numbers don't lie, but they are easily manipulated [Frown]

--------------------
Jim Drago
East Street Auto Salvage
jdrago1@aol.com
2006-2007 Mid-West Division
07,09 June Sprints Champion

EAST STREET RACING

kneedragger302
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You are correct Jim, they can be easily manipulated as some have found while in that series. We would have to run the SM's 9-12 dyno pulls... with and with out the blinkers on just to make sure the NOS is flowing. [Eek!] [yep]

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Nic Piekarski
Sheboygan Falls WI
Newbie to SCCA/MC and SM

Danny Steyn Verified Driver
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quote:
Originally posted by kneedragger302:
We would have to run the SM's 9-12 dyno pulls... with and with out the blinkers on just to make sure the NOS is flowing. [Eek!] [yep]

Drago - you would love this - While I was watching you run the STU race on Sat afternoon with your "suspicious" right blinker on, I was informed by someone that - ......."Ah I see Drago is running Fuel Map 2".......

My comment was ....."DOH, I think if Drago can figure out how to load a second Fuel Map onto his ECU, he just might know how to take out the turn signal bulbs as well!".......


Dont you just love the intrigue ..... keeps us coming back to the forum every 5 minutes just to see what the latest BS is!!!! [Smile]

--------------------
Danny
http://www.dannysteyn.com
http://www.adeptstudios.com
OPM Autosports | Traqmate | Rossini Racing Engines
2010 June Sprints Champ, 2010 ARRC SMX Champ
2009 SARRC Champ, 2009 SEDiv ECR Champ, 2009 FES Champ
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jbenoit28 Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Jim,

Forgive me but is there anyway to test for this specific hot fuel and distinguish it from normal POG? If so then write a rule to add that fuel to the banned fuel? (I'm guessing it's not that easy) I don't understand how it can pass the current test and be legal but I've read that you guys can smell the stuff when someone is running it? There must be something in it that can trigger the test to fail it.

Joe

--------------------
What does this button do??

Tom Maycock
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"The Club doesn't seem to realize that every racer is not well funded, and these same racers despise the concept of "buying your way to the front". So they don't come out to race. The Club seems to think this is a racer problem"

I don't think that's true at all, at any level.

As a member of the Chicago Region club leadership, and having had a healthy dose of interaction with some of our national leadership on this issue (including some long discussions this weekend), I'm fairly certain that everyone is very sensitive to the cost issue.

There are two aspects to the fuel issue: cost and health/safety.

The national CRB and BoD have already taken steps to address the health/safety side of things, with the new "banned substances" fuel rules.

They have also addressed the cost issue, as evidenced by the mandating of spec fuel at the Runoffs.

The problem is that mandating and (especially) *enforcing* a spec fuel rule is very, very challenging.

It's (presumably) somewhat manageable at the Runoffs, due to the fact that the Runoffs operate under a very different set of rules than any other club racing event, and the fact that the economic scale, length, and nature of the event allow for more sophisticated on-site testing.

Chicago Region dove into its second go-around with spec fuel at the Sprints this year, starting with the SRF class. I'll learn more about how that went in the coming weeks.

The idea of filling tanks and sealing caps was something several of us discussed at the Sprints. I think we agreed that it is probably the surest way to achieve compliance, but that it is a HUGE logistical challenge for a big event.

Leaving aside the other logistical concerns, one issue is who's going to oversee the fill & seal operation? We're already stretched beyond the limits of available volunteers.

Question: How many of you would be willing to volunteer to spend, say, just 4 hours a day for each of the 3 days of the June Sprints to help monitor fuel sales/delivery?

Tom Maycock
Chicago Region BoD and Comp Committee member

Drago Verified Driver Made Donation to Website Series Champ
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quote:
Originally posted by kneedragger302:
You are correct Jim, they can be easily manipulated as some have found while in that series. We would have to run the SM's 9-12 dyno pulls... with and with out the blinkers on just to make sure the NOS is flowing. [Eek!] [yep]

now thats funny!

--------------------
Jim Drago
East Street Auto Salvage
jdrago1@aol.com
2006-2007 Mid-West Division
07,09 June Sprints Champion

EAST STREET RACING

Drago Verified Driver Made Donation to Website Series Champ
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quote:
Originally posted by jbenoit28:
Jim,

Forgive me but is there anyway to test for this specific hot fuel and distinguish it from normal POG? If so then write a rule to add that fuel to the banned fuel? (I'm guessing it's not that easy) I don't understand how it can pass the current test and be legal but I've read that you guys can smell the stuff when someone is running it? There must be something in it that can trigger the test to fail it.

Joe

You can smell it a mile away. he fuel rules SCCA came up with were for worker safety, not performance. So there is a list of banned substances, there is DC test. It passes all and is legal. ruth be told, it is a cat and mouse game. If the rules change, so will the fuel. The only solution is spec fuel at some bigger races IMO.

--------------------
Jim Drago
East Street Auto Salvage
jdrago1@aol.com
2006-2007 Mid-West Division
07,09 June Sprints Champion

EAST STREET RACING

Z-MAN Verified Driver
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Things like this will continue to reduce race sizes and with all of the "Not in the philosophy of the class" responses that have been generated by the SCCA this one should be a no brainer - there is no way that $30 a gallon fuel should be any where near our cars.

THIS IS DEFINITELY NOT WITHIN THE PHILOSOPHY OF THE CLASS... Remember the "Low Cost" part? $30 a gallon for fuel is not "Low Cost"...

So we need a rule with wording that closes the loopholes. Something like (Some lawyer should help here to make sure it's done right - there are plenty of lawyer racers around that could help):

Use of a standard grade passenger car fuel obtained from a standard national or regional retailer IE. Gas station is required - No specially blended fuel, racing fuel, exotic fuels or additives are allowed. A Standard fuel is: A range of fuel specs for standard gasoline given here - is it really that hard for a lab to determine if a fuel is regular gas or hot fuel?

Then a procedure for having a suspected violator provide a sample then pump out the tank and refill it with a know approved fuel and sealed.

If a fuel is found to be non-approved or non-standard fuel the competitor will be disqualified from the event in question and excluded from competing for the remainder of the season - to include the Runoffs.

Results of fuel testing will be included in the next Fastrack that way drivers will either be exonerated and shown to be the outstanding drivers that they are since they were so fast without the hot fuel or exposed as the cheaters they are.

I, like most of you can usually tell by the smell of the exhaust alone when a car is running on hot fuel, not to mention that the fuel smells different so this really should not be to hard to police.

Would you risk not running for the rest of the season for 2 or 3 HP? And have everyone know you were a cheater if you were caught???


MZ

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While I'm thinking about racers being DQ'd what did happen at the Sprint's?

Anyone want to remove the media blackout on that one?

MZ

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It really does seem logistically difficult to me. You'd need to to control the draining process, probably have people run another gallon or so through to limit any contamination with stuff in the bottom of the tank, then impound all the cars, and probably still need to test after the race.

Oh they placed a seal on my gas cap? Goody, now we know for sure everyone is running the same fuel because it's sealed. Now that business is behind us, I have more time to work on my car. Don't mind me, I'm just cleaning out the trunk. Mind handing me that big can of toluene? [Wink]

--------------------
Keith Novak
(Will work for tires)

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quote:
Originally posted by Jim Thill:
"The Club doesn't seem to realize that every racer is not well funded, and these same racers despise the concept of "buying your way to the front". So they don't come out to race.

quote:
Originally posted by Tom Maycock:

I don't think that's true at all, at any level.


It absolutey IS true. At the Summit Point National in 2009, virtually zero local Miatas showed up to compete. What's the point? At a regional race we get 75-90 Miatas.

--------------------
Jim Thill
#11 SSM
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Thrillz Racing

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quote:
Originally posted by Butch Kummer:
I just got off the phone with Drago and he agrees (all except the "good looking" part [Wink] ).

How difficult is it to empty the tank through the test port? I'm guessing you finish qualifying with a couple of gallons in the tank, so if you're in the top twenty you bring your car and a dump can to the fuel pumps. Pump the tank dry, then add as much or little as you want from the track's pump. We seal the cap and you're good to go.

I'm thinking the same rules for SMX, SM2, and SSM as well. Yes, you may be paying $8/gal for 5 or 6 gallons of gas instead of $3/gal, but if you KNOW the top twenty in each class are running the same fuel isn't that worth $30 to you?

I am all for that!!!! It takes only a couple of minutes to drain the fuel. I think that is a perfect solution and a solution that other regions could follow as well.

--------------------
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If it's so obvious with the sniff test when Hot fuel is being used why don't we give the Grid workers a stack of large Red Stickers that say NOT POG. The driver can race and be "legal" but everyone around him will know. Maybe then the shame of $30/gal fuel will keep this from getting out of hand. [Smile]

Some people have no shame so I'm sure this isn't 100% solution.

Joe

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Tom Maycock
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"It absolutey IS true. At the Summit Point National in 2009, virtually zero local Miatas showed up to compete. What's the point? At a regional race we get 75-90 Miatas."

I think you misunderstood what I was saying.

I don't doubt your assertion that some racers stay home because of the fuel issue.

What I disagree with is the assertion that "The Club" (by which I assume you mean the CRB and BoD) is not aware of, or sensitive to, the fuel cost issue.

I think most of them are very sensitive to the issue. Unfortunately, there is no simple magic-wand solution to the issue.

Danny Steyn Verified Driver
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quote:
Originally posted by Z-MAN:
While I'm thinking about racers being DQ'd what did happen at the Sprint's?
Anyone want to remove the media blackout on that one?
MZ

Z-Man
They only teched the top 3 cars
Bounced one car for engine issues - see speculation above
They took fuel samples from the Top 3 cars
No results back yet so all results are provisional.

Overall surprised that only 3 were teched - that means that Valafar's unteched car is already up to 3rd and in fact he could win if Craig and I are bounced, and two other un-teched cars could move into 2nd and 3rd.

I thought that at important events like this they would tech to at least 5th or 6th place but that wasnt the case. My 3rd SM race ever, a Nasa race at VIR, they teched the top 5 and three of of the 5 (including me) were bounced.

I think it makes sense to tech beyond the first three for big events like the Sprints.

I am also in favor of a few random techs lower down in the finishing order being called EVERY weekend. I think the fear of being investigated in tech is good for the WHOLE class, not just for the front runners.

But now we are getting way off topic.

--------------------
Danny
http://www.dannysteyn.com
http://www.adeptstudios.com
OPM Autosports | Traqmate | Rossini Racing Engines
2010 June Sprints Champ, 2010 ARRC SMX Champ
2009 SARRC Champ, 2009 SEDiv ECR Champ, 2009 FES Champ
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quote:
Originally posted by Tom Maycock:
I think most of them are very sensitive to the issue. Unfortunately, there is no simple magic-wand solution to the issue.

When man's honor is insufficient, harsh punishment is an acceptable substitute.

--------------------
Gary Jenkins
SEDIV Spec Miata Advisory Committe
AOL IM:PBLRacing

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Heavens yes... seal the cap! All taken care of... no problems after that.

Don't mind me, I'm just adjusting the hose clamp on my fuel-pressure regulator return line at midnight... in the dark. Don't mind me, I was just changing my fuel filter at midnight... in the dark. Don't mind me, I'm just replacing my JDM fuel pressure regulator with a US spec one.... ignore the siphon hose.

I can only think of a half dozen ways to replace the fuel in the tank that don't involve the fuel filler cap.

--------------------
Do I turn my 99 Hard S into a killerfast SM or seek a donor?

wheel Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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I can guarantee that all of the CRB members are aware of fuel cost issues, since most of us deal with it every time we fill up our race cars. Also, I agree that it is far from a simple issue. The current rules are in place to protect the health of the workers and racers. The performance issue is far more involved. Without a spec fuel, you are forced to name ingredients to be outlawed. Then the fuel providers just reformulate and you are back to square one. This is not new information, of course.
wheel

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Kent, a wise solution is posted directly above you. For truly blatent violations - punish accordingly - license suspension comes to mind. Hell, publish a list of crimes and punishments for all to view. Then if you still ponder cheating - well - do you feel lucky?

-Denny

David Dewhurst
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quote:
Originally posted by Kent Carter:
Heavens yes... seal the cap! All taken care of... no problems after that. I can only think of a half dozen ways to replace the fuel in the tank that don't involve the fuel filler cap.

Thank you, I agree sealing the fuel tank is not the answer. [nope] Try again guys. [yep]

--------------------
Have Fun [Wink]

David Dewhurst
CenDiv
Milwaukee Region
Spec Miata #14

Butch Kummer
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If you are inclined to cheat, there are a number of ways to beat the system. As a number of you have pointed out both here and through PMs, sealing the gas cap can be circumvented without much difficultly.

And so the proposed process for the 2010 ARRC evolves: On race morning the top 20 in SM and top 10 in SM2 & SSM must bring their cars to the gas pumps ready to race. They then prove the tanks are empty by pumping them out of the fuel sample port, then add as much fuel as they want from the track pumps. The caps are sealed and the cars are then are rolled/driven to the Parc Ferme (which is located just before the Grid) where they are impounded until the race. Teams can adjust tire pressures, but otherwise cannot touch the cars.

Obviously we'd need to figure out the logistics and find personnel to monitor the procedures, but I'm pretty sure I can work that out. We'd also still have the normal "ARRC-level" tech after the race, which could include fuel testing as well.

Again, I'm sure there are ways to cheat the system if you're so inclined, but not letting the cars return to their paddock spots COULD make it a bit more difficult to do so.

And yes, I also recognize this is not feasible for every SCCA event. Right now I'm just thinking about the ARRC since that's the event I write the Supps for.

BK

--------------------
Atlanta Region Asst. RE, Competition Director

soupy
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Butch what are you going to do after they are in impound and it starts top rain?

--------------------
Charlie Campbell
Race Engineering
carbotech brakes

Z-MAN Verified Driver
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Bravo Butch - Pro active trying to help us police a long standing problem.

I'll be there even if it's the only race I get to this year...

MZ

 
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