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Author Topic: The white elephant in room
Drago Verified Driver Made Donation to Website Series Champ
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quote:
Originally posted by traffic53:
As Drago pointed out, he came to the Sprints with every intention of walking away with the title before the race even began. How does one confidently predict that a race with many of the quickest Miata drivers in the country is his before the weekend begins? I'm guessing equipment.

Hmmm,
Of all my faults, which are many, this however is not one of them, not by a long shot. All that know me will vouch for the fact that I often downplay my ability, make fun of myself and have never and will never play the I am some type of Hotshoe. It simply is not my style, never has been never will be.
You have mis interpreted a Smack post between friends or misunderstood my earlier post. But you are way off base here. I was a little worried about Andrew [duck] [flamed] ( that was a joke, just in case you didn't get it .)


Jim

--------------------
Jim Drago
East Street Auto Salvage
jdrago1@aol.com
2006-2007 Mid-West Division
07,09 June Sprints Champion

EAST STREET RACING

wheel Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Talk about being a genuine a**hole. Mike, you might qualify.

[ 06-30-2010, 02:33 PM: Message edited by: wheel ]

Blake Clements Verified Driver Series Champ
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quote:
Originally posted by wheel:
Talk about being a genuine a**hole. Mike, you qualify.

He's working on his "Moral Victory". Give him some slack Jim.

LOL!

--------------------
Blake Clements

PhillipsRacePrep/SP Induction Systems/East Street Racing/MiataCage.com/Carbotech/WBR Graphics

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In my line of work i get called an a**hole and a lot worst on a regular basis so I think I can comment appropriately.......Jim, Andrew, Chip, Danny, and I am sure others all entered the Sprints with the belief that they would win or give everyone a damn good run for their money! Having raced with Danny, Chip, Jamie, Cliff and others who have commented they always show up to win and have a pretty good track record of doing so.....and passing tech and the SM compliance team. I might call them a**holes for other reasons [rolling on floor laughin] but not for thinking they would win!

--------------------
Paul McLester

Colin MacLean Verified Driver
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I only have one question. Does the fuel that was run at the sprints have any additives that make it potentially dangerous for the corner workers or the other drivers?

--------------------
Colin MacLean
Flyin' MacLean Motorsports

Drago Verified Driver Made Donation to Website Series Champ
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Colin
We came up with everything we could when writing the new rules for 2010. The new test checks for all of the banned compounds. the bnned substamnce list made fuels like SR1 and all older ERC blends illegal. None of these substances are founnd in this fuel. Is there something in there that is dangerous that we potentially left off the list? Who knows?

--------------------
Jim Drago
East Street Auto Salvage
jdrago1@aol.com
2006-2007 Mid-West Division
07,09 June Sprints Champion

EAST STREET RACING

Qik Nip Verified Driver Made Donation to Website Series Champ
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Jim, while it may be unenforceable, I believe we need a simple rule as Kyle suggests that limits the fuel we run to gasoline acquired from a retail gas station, or (maximum) 93 octane gasoline purchased at a track pump.

While it perhaps can't be enforced, it at least establishes a spirit. Right now, as long as my pricey fuel doesn't contain you-cant-affordium, or die-methyl-death, I'm good to go. That just wrong.
Rick

--------------------
Fortune Cookie Racing SM 60
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Cajun Miata Man Verified Driver
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quote:
Originally posted by Qik Nip:
Jim, while it may be unenforceable, I believe we need a simple rule as Kyle suggests that limits the fuel we run to gasoline acquired from a retail gas station, or (maximum) 93 octane gasoline purchased at a track pump.

While it perhaps can't be enforced, it at least establishes a spirit. Right now, as long as my pricey fuel doesn't contain you-cant-affordium, or die-methyl-death, I'm good to go. That just wrong.
Rick

Then you must accept, that those that don't subscribe to "intent or spirit" will instantly have an advantage on those that do if they choose to run a fuel that passes any test specifications.

--------------------
James York


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I guess I will never be good at this racing thing. You see I was taught that it is right to do right and wrong to do wrong.

Never did learn this idea that wrong is only wrong if you can or do get caught.

Maybe I am foolish, but I can't believe that we all approach the rest of our life's they way racing is being approached. We can't really be living our lives without honor and ethics can we? While Mike might have been wrong in some of what he said, he certainly wasn't wrong in all that he said.

I love racing and love Spec Miata racing, but conversations like this make me sad and make me want to quit.

--------------------
Gary Jenkins
SEDIV Spec Miata Advisory Committe
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Mike Anzaldi
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Here we go.

Bad form on my, part. Bad form, indeed. Trying to explain my comment here would be useless. Sensitivity levels here are obviously running at teenage girl-like levels.

so, Blake, wheel, how exactly did you conclude that I'm the asshole here? Was it the absurd suggestion that honorable folks could compete in a motor race with a easily understandable rule book- in a series designed to keep costs reasonable? Terrible idea! What a dick!

Please.

I didn't call anyone out here. Drago started the thread. Several others have posted their thoughts that this fuel thing is BS. This has gone from a situation of surprise that Jim (being on the rules committee) was running hot fuel, to patting him on the back for "being a man" and admitting it. I'm just saying that some of you guys are kind of funny. It's a creative way to look a situation. Just as some of you have an interesting interpretation of the rules. That's all.

Clearly, I misread some of Jim's posts about the weekend. It seemed evident to me that Jim's thoughts were podium or bust. Waste of time, otherwise. In a hyper-competitive series like this, I simply found the post odd. My bad. I missed the "smack" talk nuance. I even went as far as to state that I wasn't calling anyone a cheater. Again, it's become painfully obvious to me that I, my teammates, and my shop don't understand the rules. That's how it goes. I just wish I hadn't spent money on a pro motor. Seems like a waste. A crate motor and a 30th place finish would be the same to me. This isn't really about finishing position, it's a discussion about rules. I think there are folks that don't know what the rules are- and not because they can't read.

The best part about the responses to my post are those that take exception to my calling cheaters, assholes. Again, this is low-level writing comprehension. Unless you're knowingly cheating, you aren't being addressed with the comment. That, however, hasn't stopped some from jumping at the chance to respond to my name calling.

I stand by comment, and would like to state it again: if you knowingly cheat, I think you're an asshole. So, let's not all take offense at once. Take turns, please.

Oh, and "hiding behind my anonymity"? It's Mike Anzaldi. You want my address Pat? How about my frequent flyer miles number? What does my last name have to do with my opinion? Do you need to know who you want to punt off course at the next meet? Perhaps if I add my driving accomplishments to my signature, my comments will have greater or lesser value?

--------------------
Mike

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quote:
Originally posted by traffic53:
I'm new to motor racing

...

It's like a group of big, whiny kids supervised by an idiot parent who hasn't a clue about whiny kid management.

These two statements are contrary.

You first say that you're new, but then manage to summarize the motor sports sanctioning body/racer relationship perfectly! I think that you're sand bagging.

Welcome to the bottom of a very long, frustrating, eye opening, and difficult learning curve. I hope that you enjoy the ride.

Do me a favor and post back here in five years after re-reading your righteous post. I think that you'll find yourself funny.

-Kyle

PS: Something for you to read that will help you understand the nature of racers. Right now you're the turtle. Will you ever be the scorpion?

http://www.snopes.com/critters/malice/scorpion.asp

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Here's a simple and enforceable rule:

If two nationally licensed grid workers think your fuel smells bad or burns their eyes, you are removed from the grid and returned to the paddock. You may restart your engine after the field has departed and join the field after the green flag has waved as though you had showed up late for the grid.

The human nose is a great chromatograph. Let's use it.

--------------------
Do I turn my 99 Hard S into a killerfast SM or seek a donor?

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quote:
Originally posted by traffic53:
First time caller, long time listener...

I'm new to motor racing and obviously new to Spec Miata Nat'l events.

Genuine a**hole.

Being new, your naivety is understandable.

But your target of a**hole, should probably be pointed inward.

--------------------
James York


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set up guru:
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Drago Verified Driver Made Donation to Website Series Champ
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quote:
Originally posted by traffic53:
Here we go.

It seemed evident to me that Jim's thoughts were podium or bust. Waste of time, otherwise.

Mike
I think that is a fair assessment, having been 2nd or higher the last three years, "my goal" was to win or at least podium. Much less would have and was a disappointment for me personally. I don't look at that as being cocky, I look at that as being competitive, which by nature we all are or we would not be racing?

Jim

--------------------
Jim Drago
East Street Auto Salvage
jdrago1@aol.com
2006-2007 Mid-West Division
07,09 June Sprints Champion

EAST STREET RACING

Blake Clements Verified Driver Series Champ
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I think you are pounding your chest for a moral victory and insulting people that give their free time to this class and club to make it what it is. I'm obviously not the only one that feels that way.

Instead of resorting to insults and and argument (that looks like what you are here for), I'll wish you good luck in finding some enjoyment in such a tainted class full of your word of choice.

Blake

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Blake Clements

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quote:
Originally posted by Kent Carter:
Here's a simple and enforceable rule:

If two nationally licensed grid workers think your fuel smells bad or burns their eyes, you are removed from the grid and returned to the paddock. You may restart your engine after the field has departed and join the field after the green flag has waved as though you had showed up late for the grid.

The human nose is a great chromatograph. Let's use it.

Opinion and subjective technical inspection? I don't think that will work.... And before the race?

--------------------
Blake Clements

PhillipsRacePrep/SP Induction Systems/East Street Racing/MiataCage.com/Carbotech/WBR Graphics

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Kent Carter Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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quote:
Originally posted by Blake Clements:
quote:
Originally posted by Kent Carter:
Here's a simple and enforceable rule:

If two nationally licensed grid workers think your fuel smells bad or burns their eyes, you are removed from the grid and returned to the paddock. You may restart your engine after the field has departed and join the field after the green flag has waved as though you had showed up late for the grid.

The human nose is a great chromatograph. Let's use it.

Opinion and subjective technical inspection? I don't think that will work.... And before the race?
No different than when the Starter says you jumped the start. It's his/her word against yours. Video might get you out of jail. It's no different than when the Steward decides that corner 3 is correct and that flapping bit of bodywork represents a hazard to other competitors or course marshals and throws the meatball at you. That's subjective, too.

But I grant your point. How about you run the race, but you are DQ'd on their olfactories and allowed to pay the price to prove your fuel isn't different? It wouldn't take long for everyone to decide to show up with POG. It also might not take long for someone to come up with a fuel that made 1 to 2 HP and didn't burn your eyes. That is why we run POG brand X and not Y, you know.

I honestly think this is much ado about nothing. It can't be fixed cheaply or easily so why get our nomex panties in a wad over it?

As a club, we can either decide that we'd rather hold out for unattainable perfection as though there are millions of bucks of prize money on the line and the US Supreme Court is waiting to hear the appeals... or we can decide to go with 'good enough' and use judgment and care to keep the cheaters nervous.

Either way, I'm still havin' fun! [thumbsup]

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Do I turn my 99 Hard S into a killerfast SM or seek a donor?

Mike Anzaldi
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quote:
Originally posted by disquek:

Do me a favor and post back here in five years after re-reading your righteous post. I think that you'll find yourself funny.
[/QB]

I already find myself funny. This would have gone a lot better had others agreed.


Jim- You and others are too focused on the least important part of my post. I stated again, it was obviously my mistake and sentence myself to 50 lashings for the misconduct. I will accept the beatings and the fact that the community not only strongly disagrees with the wording of my post, but has generally concluded that I am in fact, the leading asshole in this town. I have zero issues with confident drivers. I read it wrong. Let's leave my explanation at that.


Blake- I have no idea what the hell you're on about. But, carry on anyway. You seem pretty excited about yourself. I was talking about rules- and at the very most, Jim Drago's post. You seem to be talking about and taking dead aim at me and my character- as if Jim Drago hasn't the ability to address my comments himself. Either way, carry on. Perhaps you could fuel your argument on my character by phoning my wife. I bet she would give you some dirt on my unwillingness to hang flower baskets on the porch, or the constant stack of mail in the office that I so hate to open.

Knob.

--------------------
Mike

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Mike, you are the very edge of being removed from this site. Chill out and enjoy it... the inflammatory comments are getting you nowhere and is detracting from this thread.

--------------------
All this has happened before, and will happen again

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quote:
Originally posted by Kent Carter:
Here's a simple and enforceable rule:

If two nationally licensed grid workers think your fuel smells bad or burns their eyes, you are removed from the grid and returned to the paddock. You may restart your engine after the field has departed and join the field after the green flag has waved as though you had showed up late for the grid.

The human nose is a great chromatograph. Let's use it.

Better hope I'm not wandering grid farting... otherwise the entire field will be in the paddock. [Big Grin]

--------------------
All this has happened before, and will happen again

Qik Nip Verified Driver Made Donation to Website Series Champ
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Here's the letter I just sent to the CRB...

As has been discussed recently among many Spec Miata competitors, the use of exotic fuels has resumed after a brief respite from its wide use in 2009.

I am requesting that the board adopt a rule dissllowing the use of any fuel that is above 93 octane and which is not purchased from a conventional retail source (meaning a street filling station or track pump).

While it would be ideal to have a track test that would detect any but street fuel, the recent past shows us that when a rule of banned fuel ingredients is enacted, the market will devise a fuel that outflanks it.

What I am suggesting is a simply worded rule that states the intent of the class as being limited to fuel purchased from a retail gasoline vendor, of 93 octane or less with no additives added.

It may well be that some competitors will still run "rocket fuel", but at least they would not be able to hide under the excuse of "it passes the test" and thereby effectively force other competitive SM racers to follow suit.

Sincerely,

Rick Deerwester

--------------------
Fortune Cookie Racing SM 60
Directions for use: Race, Rumple, Repair ... Repeat!

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Jim might be many things....a**hole isn't one of them!

--------------------
Paul McLester

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On the subject of banned additives rather than the bunny trail this thread is going down, the rules donít actually ban the additives altogether. If you add the maximum % allowed of each one, the jungle juice can be spiked almost 20% as long as none of them exceed the max. Iím sure the list of banned substances isnít close to a complete list of all hazardous chemicals that could potentially be used for more oomph. For evidence of how diabolical motivated chemists can be, all you have to do is look at the war on drugs. Add one to the banned list and some grad student from Berkley will create a similar chemical from Tic-Tacs and drain cleaner that packs a big buzz but makes peoplesí teeth explode.

Some of the banned additives like ethanol are already in pump gas and even with pump gas, once in a while a gas station gets a bad batch or a petroleum company or distributer decides that additive X is cheaper than what they had been using and changes the mixture to something potentially even hazardous and illegal. Oil execs are about as unscrupulous as Berkley grad students. Furthermore, at some tracks, if youíre stuck in the infield or there arenít gas stations nearby (there are some) itís really hard to actually get pump gas.

Iím not saying itís not a noble cause. It just seems easier said than done.

--------------------
Keith Novak
(Will work for tires)

lapsinc
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Lance, You would really remove him for simply defending and explaining his post? WTF is that? Is knob so offensive? Or was it A**hole that made him enemy number one? Come on guys, for real? He's allowed his opinion and the ability to express it even if we do or do not agree. (reading his responses have been quite funny BTW). Lets get back on subject and try and fix the problem at hand. Just my two cents.

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quote:
Originally posted by lapsinc:
Lance, You would really remove him for simply defending and explaining his post? WTF is that? Is knob so offensive? Or was it A**hole that made him enemy number one? Come on guys, for real? He's allowed his opinion and the ability to express it even if we do or do not agree.

He's allowed his opinion and the ability to express it within the confines of the rules that are set for this site as are you. Calling everyone assholes or ladies or directly flaming one of the moderators is not required to express his opinion nor allowed. If you have any issues with the moderation of this site take it up with the real JD (that's Jim Daniels, site owner).

Now if anyone has any question about anything relating to moderating on this thread contact myself, JD, Blake or Jason Holland. Let's keep it civil folks.

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All this has happened before, and will happen again

Mike Anzaldi
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quote:
Originally posted by Lance Snyder:
Mike, you are the very edge of being removed from this site. Chill out and enjoy it... the inflammatory comments are getting you nowhere and is detracting from this thread.

lance-
i've been removed from far less impressive establishments than this. if i broke the rules, my apologies. if i need to be removed from the community, then so be it. that's up to you.

--------------------
Mike

Drago Verified Driver Made Donation to Website Series Champ
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Everyone just settle down...

Truth of the matter is, Mike is a customer and a friend. He runs one of my cars for Gods sake. He can be pissed about the fuel if he likes. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, his is actually the majority it seems. I appreciate those who stood up for me, but not neccessary.

He has not raced many SCCA races and feels he signed up for one class and ends up racing another. I get that.

I don't like the way it is headed either, thats why I started the post, I knew I would take some flack and I am fine with that. Been called worse than an A$$hole before and will be again I am sure. [Big Grin]
I really didnt find anything all that offensive in his post. I relate it more to finding out Santa Claus is not real, we all remember that day.

--------------------
Jim Drago
East Street Auto Salvage
jdrago1@aol.com
2006-2007 Mid-West Division
07,09 June Sprints Champion

EAST STREET RACING

Kent Carter Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Jim? Santa? Santa isn't... real?


[nope] Oh man, you really are an #$$.

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Do I turn my 99 Hard S into a killerfast SM or seek a donor?

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Next thing you know the Ether Bunny is not gonna be real either.

--------------------
All this has happened before, and will happen again

Colin MacLean Verified Driver
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quote:
Originally posted by Drago:
I relate it more to finding out Santa Claus is not real, we all remember that day.

What do you mean he's not real?????

--------------------
Colin MacLean
Flyin' MacLean Motorsports

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quote:
feels he signed up for one class and ends up racing another
I've felt that way since 2006 but I keep coming back for more. There's something very wrong with me.

mat pombo Verified Driver
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Been in this class since 2000. I am one of the remaining few that still race it frequently. Despite all the terrorist plots to destroy it on this site, this is still the best class to race around. This site is often used as a forum to vent for those frustrated and is rarely an avenue where the positives of this class are discussed.

The longer you are around, you will see that. Trust me, I remember when drago first came to the ARRC as a rookie. He drove an early model SM and barely fit in the thing. Thank goodness for the 99 eh Jim:-)

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quote:
Originally posted by Lance Snyder:
Next thing you know the Ether Bunny is not gonna be real either.

Don't tell me he's on hot fuel carrots too....

--------------------
Rob Myles
Hero To The Momentum Impaired

Drago Verified Driver Made Donation to Website Series Champ
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quote:
Originally posted by d mathias:
There's something very wrong with me. [/QB]

As long as you can admit it, thats all that matters... There is something wrong with all of us! [Big Grin]

--------------------
Jim Drago
East Street Auto Salvage
jdrago1@aol.com
2006-2007 Mid-West Division
07,09 June Sprints Champion

EAST STREET RACING

jbenoit28 Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Lance, is the Ether Bunny legal in the US?

I thank Jim for bringing up the subject for debate and truely hope to see a solution soon. Either way I'm holding it down in the mid pack and I'm too cheap to buy $30/gal gas anyway. That hot fuel would probably destroy the delicate matrix of carbon deposits I'm using to hold what's left of the compression in my 5 year old motor.

Joe

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What does this button do??

Danny Steyn Verified Driver
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The future of our Spec Miata class

What do we want for our class?

While I cannot speak for everyone, I will speak for those that I know and I will assume that those that I do not know somehow all have the same desire. (Idealistic assumption I know)

I believe we all want a healthy and vibrant class within the SCCA (and possibly other sanctioning bodies) that meets the following criteria. The SM class should allow us all to

1. enjoy competitive racing at all skill and budget levels (with varying results for all)
2. drive any model year of Miata to compete with no advantage to one year over another
3. compete at a sustainable and reasonable cost
4. encourage the youth to join and race our class (as they are the future)
5. easily understand what is allowed and what is not
6. easily to determine if anyone is going beyond the class rules (both for competitors and tech)

I am sure that I have missed several items on this list that others will add shortly

So saying that those are our intentions, what is getting in our way right now?


My late dad said it best ÖÖ.Ē Man has the infinite capacity to justify his actionsĒ. We are all hypocrites at some point in our lives.

One day we complain about the guy tailgating us on the freeway and then do the exact same thing to someone else the very next day. But we were justified in doing itÖÖÖ.right?

In my opinion the thing that keeps this SM class from meeting some of the criteria listed above right now is nothing more than simple human nature in its many forms. And our lovely SM class is no different from any other pursuit we embark upon in real life.

As one starts out in any pursuit or venture, in the beginning we are all essentially ignorant and naÔve and we all start from a very idealistic perspective seeing the path ahead of us very clearly in terms of black and white.

The deeper we venture into our chosen pursuit, the more informed we become and the more we understand the reality of the situation, and we all become more aware of gray areas that we had no idea about before. Some areas appear to be very light gray and almost white, while others are very dark gray and almost black.

Then we are all forced to make some sort of decision. Our ego, our pride and our ambition burns strong and we all stare ahead at the road before us. We see the black path, we see the white path and now we also see the myriad of gray paths ahead of us. And we all arrive at a time to decide which path we will embark upon. We all do that and make our decisions based in part on our character, morality, upbringing, value system, ego, pride, ambition, etc.

Some of us choose to only operate in the white area, some of us were already in the black to start off, and now some of us are seduced to venture off the white path onto the gray path in the hope that the shade of gray is not really that different from the white path after all. And since so many are already on the gray path, it canít be all that badÖ. Right? Justification at full swing.

Get over yourselves. This is motor racing. You will always be trying to push the limits. Itís no different to any other sport.

There are gray areas. There will always be gray areas. It is naÔve beyond belief to think that if we, as a class, manage to close this one hole (whether it be ECUís or Fuel or RPís or whatever), that it will solve our problems. It will never. Another new area will become visible to those searching for an edge, and most racers are searching for an edge. I have yet to see an endeavor where the sharp end of the pack is not tainted by some sort of rules transgression. Whether it is F-ducts, Hot Fuel, Doping, etc.

The sharp end will always at some point cross the line and we will learn how they gamed the system. There will be an uproar, the rules committee will rewrite the rules and that door will partially close. And the sharp end will seek out new advantages in the gray areas of the rules.

This is the nature of the beast we are dealing with. It will never go away. It is human nature. It will be present in SSM, SM2 and any other form of SM class you choose to develop. The rules will continuously be rewritten to close the gray areas and the class will find new

I wish it were not so, but I am slowly becoming a realist as my naivetť is slowly being crushed by my politicians, my oil men, my health care professionals and by my fellow racers.

Sorry to say, it is just human nature, the unlimited ability to justify ones actions. Just a realist, trying to keep up with the pointy end of my class.

Hope I didnít offend anyone, ÖFlame Suit On!!!!

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Danny
http://www.dannysteyn.com
http://www.adeptstudios.com
OPM Autosports | Traqmate | Rossini Racing Engines
2010 June Sprints Champ, 2010 ARRC SMX Champ
2009 SARRC Champ, 2009 SEDiv ECR Champ, 2009 FES Champ
2008 SEDiv ECR Champ

Jamie Tucker Series Champ

ARRC 2010 Champ

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quote:
Originally posted by Cliffy Chains:
quote:
Originally posted by Drago:
quote:
Originally posted by Qik Nip:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jamie Tucker:
[qb] Let's hope this disease doesn't eventually infect the Regional category.
Rick

It already has... Ask Jamie how many ran hot gas at the ARRC last year, 15 plus that I know of... A few of which are on here against it? Go figure?
Don't shoot the messenger, I get it... I chose to acknowledge the problem rather than put my head in the sand though.

I think this is one reason alot of us respect you, you dont bury your head in the sand, but can we try to find a way to fix the fuel problem. I heard SRF had a spec fuel at the sprints, but SM did not is that true.??
Drago I have nothing but respect for you and you know that. You are the first person to try to keep these things from happining; which is why you started this thread. I know the fuel was legal but many of us feel that we have to stop it if possible. With the Ecus many drivers ran them before others including myself even knew about it. I think most would agree that the ECUs were not in the spirit of the rules either but here they are.. I know you tried to stop that as well for the good of the class. I am asking you and the others that know how to write the rules to help us get the hot fuel stopped. And yes many were on fuel at the ARRC last year as you said. As far as compairing fuel to pro engines I do think it is the same problem and there is little difference. Although at some point we have to draw the line. I have said my piece on the issue and I will leave it at that. Thanks for taking the heat Drago!!!!

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2010 ARRC Champion
2010 CFR Champion
2010 instigator of the year
2010/2011 Andrew Von C Wingman

Casey Z Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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As one who used to run around tilting windmills I can tell you that this is another one. I still have a POG sticker on my car and intend to leave it there.

That said, most of this is just screaming at the rain and asking it to stop. You may get some angst out but it won't get you anywhere. I can see the pump around or spec fuel testing at the larger events, but I just don't see it happening at most nationals. This gets back to the notion that we think our class is special. It is only special because we are in it and that is what we think. We are just another NASA / SCCA class and asking for fuel tech everywhere isn't going to happen unless we want to incur additional costs. We don't even tech the obvious stuff at the vast majority of races, so how does anyone think we can or will do this with fuel?

The fact is the fuel in question is apparently legal. Therefore calling people out for it is bad form on the part of those doing the calling out, not the ones that run/ran the fuel. We went through the fuel thing awhile back and we asked for and got a spec. Just because we don't like the spec anymore doesn't give anyone the right to go on a witch hunt. If you want to do something about it draft a rule and write a letter. And for goodness sake don't shoot the messenger...

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Z Brothers Racing / East Street Auto

Casey Z - 1.6 Kettle
MidDiv National #13

B Wilson Verified Driver Series Champ
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Dang I wish I had time to read all these posts!!!

Didn't SanFran region figure this out starting this year??? It has certainly stopped the use of hot gas there, no?

Keep a running list of the hot gas (not mass produced) on the market. Get the chemical signature and dissallow by brand/product. If a new fuel hits the market, add it to the list. If someone has left over in the tank, DQ them too, as they shouldn't have it anywhere is SM.

Isn't there a workable rule there somewhere!

-bw

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Bruce Wilson
2010 Oregon Region Champ
2010 Monte Shelton Driver of the Year
2010 25 Hours of Thunderhill E3 and Under 2 liter Overall Champion
Oregon Region SM Class Advisor

D.B. Cutler Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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I've only run 87 or now 93 octane gas from Shell, Mobil or BP, so I'm not familiar with this stuff. What specifically, are we talking about when we say "hot fuels"? Are we talking about a certain brand, or octane rating or additives or what?

If I go to Sunoco and buy "racing gas" is that hot fuel? Or are we talking about something that has to be ordered and shipped special from a fuel company.

Randy Thieme
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quote:
Originally posted by D.B. Cutler:
If I go to Sunoco and buy "racing gas" is that hot fuel? Or are we talking about something that has to be ordered and shipped special from a fuel company.

In our area there's an 'understanding' that 100 octane unleaded Sunoco is both legal and acceptable. It's more expensive than pump premium ($10-$12/gal) but not nearly as much as the $30 to $40/gal stuff, which is apparantly what this thread is about.

In our area they are offering contingency $$$ for the use of Sunoco gas, conditional upon a purchase receipt, having the patch on your driving suit, and Sunoco stickers on your car. I say 'contingency' but it's really a hat draw and not based on finishing position. So even a DFL dweeb like myself might get something.

(Did I just add fuel to the fire? (pardon the pun))

Steven Holloway Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
Blue Eyes, Aquarius, hates being squeezed to the grass in SowDiv!

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quote:
Originally posted by Kent Carter:
Jim? Santa? Santa isn't... real?


[nope] Oh man, you really are an #$$.

Crap! Next you're going to tell me Kent isn't a real Dr.!!!

[rolling on floor laughin] [duck]

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If you can't fix it with a hammer, it's got electrical problems.

Rich Verified Driver
Oh, that's where that is.

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I'm [rolling on floor laughin] over here. You guys. lol.

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Rich Wiese

Spec Wrecker Ford

George Munson Verified Driver
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Pardon my stupdity but what exactly is the fuel in question?

Drago Verified Driver Made Donation to Website Series Champ
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The fuel run was ERC 7mze, so at least anyone willing can buy it...
Call Rick Gold at ERC ,He will be glad to sell it to you.
Jim

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Jim Drago
East Street Auto Salvage
jdrago1@aol.com
2006-2007 Mid-West Division
07,09 June Sprints Champion

EAST STREET RACING

racerfink Verified Driver
Gig 'em Aggies

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For the most part, I run in the top 10 in CFR, so I don't want a rule that requires me to buy the race fuel from the track vendor at $8 or $9 a gallon. Something that will allow me to still buy the 87 octane from the gas stations near the track is definitely needed in any kind of rule.

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'90 Spec Miata
'90 Street Miata
'96 Chevy 1500
http://www.AutoTechnikRacing.com
www.myspace.com/projecthband

darmstrong Verified Driver
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I am a relative newbie to SM racing, in my 2nd year, but have raced motorcycles and karts for many years prior. The tricked motors, ignitions, fuel were all prevelant in these motorsports when I was involved, and the same "discussions" were rampant at that time as well. I chose to move to SM because of the close level of competition, close knit community of drivers, and willingness to help a newbie like myself improve. I am a middle of the pack guy at best, on a meager budget, a 1 man crew, mechanic,& driver, but still have a blast when I am out there. There will always be, whether on the national, regional, or club level, someone who has enough money, or lack of respect for the "spirit and intent of the rules", that will do anything within their power to be at the front, it is a fact of motorsports (or any competitive event for that matter). I don't like it, but that is not going to make it go away. So I have to accept it, because I love racing, and I am not willing to give it up because someone else has the money to spend, or someone has the lack of character to push the rules beyond their intent. I want to have someone to race with, whether its front (not likely), mid or back of the pack, and if I am alone, I will race to improve my lap times, but I will continue to race, and I will continue to have a blast. That does not mean that I would not like to see something done to even the playing field for everyone, especially those of us that don't have money to burn to try to keep up with the pointy end of the field.

Dave Armstrong
SM #66

Cliffy Chains
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You say you're a newbie to SM, sounds like youve been here since the start....

Well said, spoken like a vet to the class..... [thumbsup]

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BDR Motorsports, Autotechnik
Cliff Blanchard
Down on power 1.6
Sluggish overweight 99'

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quote:
Originally posted by davew:
I will agree with Jamie that I sure wish this had not happened. This is ECU's all over again. But different.

Unlike the ECU's this is perfectly legal. You have to run fuel designed to a certain spec. If this fuel passes, then it is legal. This is unlike ECU's because that was modifying a part that is specificly mentioned in the rules that is not allowed to be modified.

So what do we do?

At smaller events, there really isn't much we can do. We can not require a spec fuel unless there is a supply of that fuel. Since most tracks do not have street gas available on track, we would have to spec race gas. At $8-9.00 per gallon.

At big races such as the Sprints, Runoffs etc. we should spec the same fuel as the SRF cars. They had spec fuel at Road America! Having 50 SRF and 50 SM using the same gas would definatly make the gas man happy.

FYI, Burdzy ran Road America 98 octane race gas in qualifying. He ran the same gas as all my cars for the race. Citgo, from the station down the street.

Dave

The first thing we need to resolve this is a rule written that does not allow any fuel to be used that isn't distributed through a retail style outlet or from the track supply. It would have to be worded such that it excludes the use of custom bleneded fuels. That alone will stop some of the use. Some drivers (probably Jim Drago included) would stop using it if it weren't legal. Of course others with less character might continue to use it just like some now of questionable character and judgement are using modified ECUs simply because they feel they won't be caught. Enforcement of the fuel rule will be tough and may have to evolve over time. In the short run we can change the rule and begin to resolve the problem.

B Wilson Verified Driver Series Champ
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Yes, I agree with Tom, write the rule. Since only peer pressure has been able to stop this at the regional level and at some national races in the past, it would be good to have the rule in the books. It won't stop the hot fuel at the big races, but that can be dealt with by requiring competitors buy at the track. The worst thing we can do is do nothing and keep having this same damn argument every year!!! BTW the wording you used is very similar to what we put in our gentelman's agreement in our region, wchich also works just fine for our national races

-bw

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Bruce Wilson
2010 Oregon Region Champ
2010 Monte Shelton Driver of the Year
2010 25 Hours of Thunderhill E3 and Under 2 liter Overall Champion
Oregon Region SM Class Advisor

 
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