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Author Topic: The white elephant in room
Dr.Dan Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
V8, nice! And good for you too!

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POG only in SFR. gentlemans agreement. For two years now I believe. No issues so far. If someones does use it we are all pissing in his or her tank. The only cars we had probs with in the past were 1.8's.

--------------------
Daniel Mairani DDS...still here, just faster.
http://www.DanielMairanidds.com

B Wilson Verified Driver Series Champ
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Ah yes, the ol' pissing rule [Smile]

-b

--------------------
Bruce Wilson
2010 Oregon Region Champ
2010 Monte Shelton Driver of the Year
2010 25 Hours of Thunderhill E3 and Under 2 liter Overall Champion
Oregon Region SM Class Advisor

Ron Alan Made Donation to Website
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Bravo just called and has announced plans to cancel "Real Housewifes of New Jersey" and replace it with "SM Drivers of the Southeast and Beyond" [duck]

I just spent 2 hours reading this thread...ok I'm slow. The serious, self-righteous, realists, pragmatists, goofballs and other types are all appreciated! If we all walked down the same path what fun would that be! Enjoy the fact that we all have the means and ability to get ourselves out to the track to enjoy a fun hobby...whether you finished at the forked tongued end of the snake or the Mike end... [rolling on floor laughin] sorry Mike, couldn't resist...no hard feelings [Smile]

Peace [group hug]

-RA

--------------------
-RA


"Happy birthday, I didn't get you a present...Oh, mom got you one? Well, that's from me then too, unless it's shitty."
9:52 AM Sep 14th, 2009 via web
http://twitter.com/shitmydadsays

Danny Steyn Verified Driver
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quote:
Originally posted by darmstrong:
I am a relative newbie to SM racing, in my 2nd year, but have raced motorcycles and karts for many years prior. The tricked motors, ignitions, fuel were all prevelant in these motorsports when I was involved, and the same "discussions" were rampant at that time as well. I chose to move to SM because of the close level of competition, close knit community of drivers, and willingness to help a newbie like myself improve. I am a middle of the pack guy at best, on a meager budget, a 1 man crew, mechanic,& driver, but still have a blast when I am out there. There will always be, whether on the national, regional, or club level, someone who has enough money, or lack of respect for the "spirit and intent of the rules", that will do anything within their power to be at the front, it is a fact of motorsports (or any competitive event for that matter). I don't like it, but that is not going to make it go away. So I have to accept it, because I love racing, and I am not willing to give it up because someone else has the money to spend, or someone has the lack of character to push the rules beyond their intent. I want to have someone to race with, whether its front (not likely), mid or back of the pack, and if I am alone, I will race to improve my lap times, but I will continue to race, and I will continue to have a blast. That does not mean that I would not like to see something done to even the playing field for everyone, especially those of us that don't have money to burn to try to keep up with the pointy end of the field.

Dave Armstrong
SM #66

Dave - you are SO ON POINT with your comment - thanks

--------------------
Danny
http://www.dannysteyn.com
http://www.adeptstudios.com
OPM Autosports | Traqmate | Rossini Racing Engines
2010 June Sprints Champ, 2010 ARRC SMX Champ
2009 SARRC Champ, 2009 SEDiv ECR Champ, 2009 FES Champ
2008 SEDiv ECR Champ

Jeff Longo Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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+ 1

I prefer to think there are many SMer's that feel this way.

This has been a very entertaining thread. [Big Grin]

--------------------
LTD Racing
Chief Of Inappropriate Comments

George Munson Verified Driver
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I asked the question about the fuel thinking there may be properties about those kinds of fuels that could be used in writing rules the "New Fuel Rules for SM". I'm not a chemist but can these types be analyzed so as to identify those properties that differ from over the counter fuel?

However, I have a race this weekend and will need all the help I can get. [rolling on floor laughin] [nope]

Viet-Tam Luu
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How about a claim rule for fuel? I'll happily buy your $30/gallon hot fuel for, say, $8/gallon. [Big Grin]

--------------------
Viet-Tam Luu (a.k.a. "Tam")
SFR-SCCA #14 ITS
Director, SCCA San Francisco Region

Keith in WA Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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quote:
Originally posted by George Munson:
I asked the question about the fuel thinking there may be properties about those kinds of fuels that could be used in writing rules the "New Fuel Rules for SM". I'm not a chemist but can these types be analyzed so as to identify those properties that differ from over the counter fuel?

However, I have a race this weekend and will need all the help I can get. [rolling on floor laughin] [nope]

The one thing that they have in common is that when mixed with air and gasoline under compression, they explode when a spark is added. Otherwise there's everything from lead to nitromethane on the list which are pretty far apart chemically.

--------------------
Keith Novak
(Will work for tires)

B Wilson Verified Driver Series Champ
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It got lost on the last page.

Write the rule.

Only mass produced fuel (similar to homologation rules), which includes fuels like Sunoco.

Let peer pressure sort our the "losers" at the regional and national races and require fuel from the track pump at the big races.

Those who choose to cheat would be advised to keep their car in the trailer overnight when racing San Fran region [Smile]

This is club racing and peer pressure has appeared to work in the Northwest, San Francisco and SE. So it does work!

Write the rule!

What do you think Jim?

-bw

--------------------
Bruce Wilson
2010 Oregon Region Champ
2010 Monte Shelton Driver of the Year
2010 25 Hours of Thunderhill E3 and Under 2 liter Overall Champion
Oregon Region SM Class Advisor

disquek Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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IMHO, don't write rules that cannot be enforced. It's sets a bad president.

Rules do not have, and should not have a "spirit" or "intent". They should be clear and unambiguous.

Human nature is that people get mad when they're expectations are not met.

Interpreting a "spirit" or "intent" from a set of rules will come out differently for everyone that reads them. Then when all of those different people and their different interpretations show up at the track and discover that their competitors had a different interpretation of the "spirit", they're expectations are smashed and they get POd.

"Spirit" and "Intent" are a lazy man's solution to a problem that is best solved with specifics.

Also, when someone creatively and legally figures out a way to improve their car within those specific rules, you should be applauding them, not bashing them. This IS racing, right? Not socialism ....

-Kyle

Nigel Stu Verified Driver
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Dave - from a guy who probably has about the same crew set-up and budget as you, my thoughts exactly! Very well said.


The only thing I could possibly add to that, is that I really enjoy beating people with more $$$ into their cars than I have. Quite gratifying. [Smile]

--------------------
Ben Schaut
Schaut Speed Motorsports
GLDiv / WHRRI
#66 Blue/White/Black

B Wilson Verified Driver Series Champ
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Kyle, there are many many rules that are not enforced in club racing, usually only enforced for a few at the runoffs and that can be solved in this case. It is the even bigger part of the white elephant we are speaking about. We have discussed this so many times, I'm fairly convinced that it can't be solved with specifics!

Can you suggest a course of action? If not, let's write the rule.

-b

--------------------
Bruce Wilson
2010 Oregon Region Champ
2010 Monte Shelton Driver of the Year
2010 25 Hours of Thunderhill E3 and Under 2 liter Overall Champion
Oregon Region SM Class Advisor

Drago Verified Driver Made Donation to Website Series Champ
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quote:
Originally posted by disquek:
IMHO, don't write rules that cannot be enforced. It's sets a bad president.

Rules do not have, and should not have a "spirit" or "intent". They should be clear and unambiguous.

Human nature is that people get mad when they're expectations are not met.

Interpreting a "spirit" or "intent" from a set of rules will come out differently for everyone that reads them. Then when all of those different people and their different interpretations show up at the track and discover that their competitors had a different interpretation of the "spirit", they're expectations are smashed and they get POd.

"Spirit" and "Intent" are a lazy man's solution to a problem that is best solved with specifics.

Also, when someone creatively and legally figures out a way to improve their car within those specific rules, you should be applauding them, not bashing them. This IS racing, right? Not socialism ....

-Kyle

man Kyle, that girlfriend really straightened you out! [Big Grin]
+1 on Kyles post

But at this point, too many have figured out this legal advantage, I even posted who and where to buy it. So it is quickly becoming a legal 'spec", which is 180 degrees from why most of us ran it in the first place! [Eek!] We need to contain the cost IMO

--------------------
Jim Drago
East Street Auto Salvage
jdrago1@aol.com
2006-2007 Mid-West Division
07,09 June Sprints Champion

EAST STREET RACING

B Wilson Verified Driver Series Champ
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I'm not sure how "spirit" and "intent" equates to a rule that requires mass produced fuel??? If you want to be more specific about how mass produced fuel is defined, I agree, let's do it.

-bw

--------------------
Bruce Wilson
2010 Oregon Region Champ
2010 Monte Shelton Driver of the Year
2010 25 Hours of Thunderhill E3 and Under 2 liter Overall Champion
Oregon Region SM Class Advisor

Danny Steyn Verified Driver
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quote:
Originally posted by disquek:
IMHO, don't write rules that cannot be enforced. It's sets a bad president.
Rules do not have, and should not have a "spirit" or "intent". They should be clear and unambiguous.
-Kyle

Kyle - this is CRITICAL to every rule

Thanks for the post

--------------------
Danny
http://www.dannysteyn.com
http://www.adeptstudios.com
OPM Autosports | Traqmate | Rossini Racing Engines
2010 June Sprints Champ, 2010 ARRC SMX Champ
2009 SARRC Champ, 2009 SEDiv ECR Champ, 2009 FES Champ
2008 SEDiv ECR Champ

Jason Holland Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
Mediocrity rules!

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quote:
Originally posted by B Wilson:
It got lost on the last page.

Write the rule.

Only mass produced fuel (similar to homologation rules), which includes fuels like Sunoco.

Let peer pressure sort our the "losers" at the regional and national races and require fuel from the track pump at the big races.

Those who choose to cheat would be advised to keep their car in the trailer overnight when racing San Fran region [Smile]

This is club racing and peer pressure has appeared to work in the Northwest, San Francisco and SE. So it does work!

Write the rule!

What do you think Jim?

-bw

Maybe something like this?

12.8 Fuel
Fuel usage is restricted to unleaded gasoline commonly found at retail pumping stations (Shell,
Chevron, Citgo, etc.). Octane is limited to a maximum of 94 (R+M)/2 as labeled on the pump.
Race fuels such as, but not limited to, ERC brand are prohibited. All fuel additives are illegal, per
the CCR. Note- event supplemental rules supersede this section.


And no, it can't be enforced all the time but it can be at the big races with spec'ing a fuel and doing comparison tests backed up by more extensive lab testing.

In this way, at least people know they are cheating when they buy something from a non retail chain (POG). This will deter some people from doing it. Then you add in the peer pressure, some random testing and I think you'll find people will stop using it. Maybe.

Spirit and intent? I think they are important and I think you'll find most people think they are as well. Specificity good enough to lock down all grey areas of the rules would require rulebooks the size of encyclopedia sets.

What the envelope pushers don't seem to get is that this is bad PR. As Kyle said, when expectations are not met, people get pissed off. And believe me, I know alot of people who expect different than this from an "entry level class".

--------------------
Jason Holland
Semi-interested civilian

Scott Zetterstrom Verified Driver
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You are trying to outlaw murder by defining the different ways people can kill each other. The law doesn't say you can't kill someone by shooting them in the chest, the arm, the head, or stabbing them in the heart, etc. There will always be another way. A murderer doesn't say, "Well, I threw him off the building and that isn't defined in the law as murder so it's ok".

You can't always be specific for every contingency. Ban substances that are dangerous, that's good. You can even allow grid workers and fellow competitors to point out offending cars. Write the rule to say something like - "no performance advantage over pump gas". You can test the car and its fuel at any dyno and compare the same car with a local pump gas (specified in the supps?). More than x% advantage and the car gets DQ'd and the driver sits for some time.

--------------------
#13 SSM
ME Solutions LLC
Windsor Customs Racing
PBC Automotive

B Wilson Verified Driver Series Champ
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Guys please take a quick look at the GCR and tell me the non-enforceable and intent precedence has not already been set.

-b

--------------------
Bruce Wilson
2010 Oregon Region Champ
2010 Monte Shelton Driver of the Year
2010 25 Hours of Thunderhill E3 and Under 2 liter Overall Champion
Oregon Region SM Class Advisor

Jamie Tucker Series Champ

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quote:
Originally posted by Jason Holland:
quote:
Originally posted by B Wilson:
It got lost on the last page.

Write the rule.

Only mass produced fuel (similar to homologation rules), which includes fuels like Sunoco.

Let peer pressure sort our the "losers" at the regional and national races and require fuel from the track pump at the big races.

Those who choose to cheat would be advised to keep their car in the trailer overnight when racing San Fran region [Smile]

This is club racing and peer pressure has appeared to work in the Northwest, San Francisco and SE. So it does work!

Write the rule!

What do you think Jim?

-bw

Maybe something like this?

12.8 Fuel
Fuel usage is restricted to unleaded gasoline commonly found at retail pumping stations (Shell,
Chevron, Citgo, etc.). Octane is limited to a maximum of 94 (R+M)/2 as labeled on the pump.
Race fuels such as, but not limited to, ERC brand are prohibited. All fuel additives are illegal, per
the CCR. Note- event supplemental rules supersede this section.


And no, it can't be enforced all the time but it can be at the big races with spec'ing a fuel and doing comparison tests backed up by more extensive lab testing.

In this way, at least people know they are cheating when they buy something from a non retail chain (POG). This will deter some people from doing it. Then you add in the peer pressure, some random testing and I think you'll find people will stop using it. Maybe.

Spirit and intent? I think they are important and I think you'll find most people think they are as well. Specificity good enough to lock down all grey areas of the rules would require rulebooks the size of encyclopedia sets.

What the envelope pushers don't seem to get is that this is bad PR. As Kyle said, when expectations are not met, people get pissed off. And believe me, I know alot of people who expect different than this from an "entry level class".

That seems very clear to me! We may not be able to inforce it all the time but it will keep people that use hot fuel in the future from claiming that it is legal because it passes the tech. Peer pressure will do the rest. [Mad]

--------------------
2010 ARRC Champion
2010 CFR Champion
2010 instigator of the year
2010/2011 Andrew Von C Wingman

disquek Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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quote:
Originally posted by Drago:
man Kyle, that girlfriend really straightened you out!

She's been promoted to wife now.

That's why I appreciate specific rules better these days. She's explained it to me! [Smash] [fight]

-Kyle

-> ... just kidding Honey ... <-

B Wilson Verified Driver Series Champ
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Congrats Kyle!

-bw

--------------------
Bruce Wilson
2010 Oregon Region Champ
2010 Monte Shelton Driver of the Year
2010 25 Hours of Thunderhill E3 and Under 2 liter Overall Champion
Oregon Region SM Class Advisor

Gatoratty Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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You still need to add language to ban "off-road" fuel. That would ban the use of the track gas, but Sunoco 110 is available at the pump here in Orlando at "retail pumping stations." I guess the question is are you trying to regulate octane or additives?

--------------------
Paul McLester

Jamie Tucker Series Champ

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quote:
Originally posted by disquek:
quote:
Originally posted by Drago:
man Kyle, that girlfriend really straightened you out!

She's been promoted to wife now.

That's why I appreciate specific rules better these days. She's explained it to me! [Smash] [fight]

-Kyle

-> ... just kidding Honey ... <-

So you have been demoted to husband! [Confused]
Congrats!! [Smile]

--------------------
2010 ARRC Champion
2010 CFR Champion
2010 instigator of the year
2010/2011 Andrew Von C Wingman

Drago Verified Driver Made Donation to Website Series Champ
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quote:
Originally posted by disquek:
quote:
Originally posted by Drago:
man Kyle, that girlfriend really straightened you out!

She's been promoted to wife now.

That's why I appreciate specific rules better these days. She's explained it to me! [Smash] [fight]

-Kyle
-> ... just kidding Honey ... <-

[Smile] Congrats!

--------------------
Jim Drago
East Street Auto Salvage
jdrago1@aol.com
2006-2007 Mid-West Division
07,09 June Sprints Champion

EAST STREET RACING

B Wilson Verified Driver Series Champ
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quote:
Originally posted by Gatoratty:
You still need to add language to ban "off-road" fuel. That would ban the use of the track gas, but Sunoco 110 is available at the pump here in Orlando at "retail pumping stations." I guess the question is are you trying to regulate octane or additives?

I would hate to ban Sunoco 100, since I don't trust most lesser fuels for consistency. It's the $30-60 /gal stuff that I feel needs to be banned. Sunoco, Rocket Fuel and a couple other brands are massed produced race fuels that are fine IMHO, but I'd be willing to go with a rule similar to NASA if that's what it takes.

-bw

--------------------
Bruce Wilson
2010 Oregon Region Champ
2010 Monte Shelton Driver of the Year
2010 25 Hours of Thunderhill E3 and Under 2 liter Overall Champion
Oregon Region SM Class Advisor

oem steve
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Do the track fuels really help? I tried using 87 octane in my 91 and it made just as much horsepower. I didn't think the added octane really helped these engines, but I guess the consitency would be better though.

--------------------
email: standrewsexpress@bellsouth.net
visit us at http://www.standrewsexpress.com

Under powered and under driven

Kent Carter Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
Future Never Has Been

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Folks,

I was only half joking about the sting and stink rule. We all know that regular pump gas doesn't sting or stink. Even Sunoco 110 doesn't sting and stink. And I seriously doubt that you can put enough oxygenates and burn rate enhancers to make horsepower without making it sting and stink.

Here is the rule:
"Fuel that, in the opinion of the Chief Steward or their designee, creates excessively noxious exhaust fumes will result in disqualification or loss of qualifying times. Appeals will be heard (smelled?) by the SOM.

If subsequent analysis reveals the presence of banned substances or deviation from class fuel rules, the driver's license will be revoked for a year."

--------------------
Do I turn my 99 Hard S into a killerfast SM or seek a donor?

Motor City Hamilton
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Anyone read "The Unfair Advantage" by Mark Donahue? The SCCA has a long history of grey areas in the rules. Roger Penske built a racing empire from it.

I like SM because the depth of the field. I always have a number of cars at my level of budget, prep or driving skills to race with. The biggest challenge that I see with SM is that it is trying to serve two very different race groups; amature racers and not sure what to call it... maybe steppers? SM is becoming a stepping stone to pro racing. If more guys like Pombo and Lamb continue to get opportunities to move up, SM is no longer just about the $15 trophy. We are going to see a flood of young go-kart racers moving through for a few seasons to transition to pro racing. For that crowd there is a vested interest in maximizing prep on everything they can.

Qik Nip Verified Driver Made Donation to Website Series Champ
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quote:
Originally posted by oem steve:
Do the track fuels really help? I tried using 87 octane in my 91 and it made just as much horsepower. I didn't think the added octane really helped these engines, but I guess the consitency would be better though.

Octane doesn't, but fuel that packs it's own extra charge of ozygen sure does! [Smash] That's what this stuff does.
Rick

--------------------
Fortune Cookie Racing SM 60
Directions for use: Race, Rumple, Repair ... Repeat!

Jamie Tucker Series Champ

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At least we have a very active forum where we can discuss issues like this. SM is still the best group going and I think it will only get better in the future as long as people come on here and express their opinions.

--------------------
2010 ARRC Champion
2010 CFR Champion
2010 instigator of the year
2010/2011 Andrew Von C Wingman

Wreckerboy Verified Driver
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quote:
Originally posted by disquek:
quote:
Originally posted by Drago:
man Kyle, that girlfriend really straightened you out!

She's been promoted to wife now.

That's why I appreciate specific rules better these days. She's explained it to me! [Smash] [fight]

-Kyle

-> ... just kidding Honey ... <-

She's reading this over your shoulder, isn't she?

Just blink once for yes, twice for no....

Seriously, congratulations!

--------------------
Rob Myles
Hero To The Momentum Impaired

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quote:
Originally posted by Motor City Hamilton:
Anyone read "The Unfair Advantage" by Mark Donahue? The SCCA has a long history of grey areas in the rules. Roger Penske built a racing empire from it.

I like SM because the depth of the field. I always have a number of cars at my level of budget, prep or driving skills to race with. The biggest challenge that I see with SM is that it is trying to serve two very different race groups; amature racers and not sure what to call it... maybe steppers? SM is becoming a stepping stone to pro racing. If more guys like Pombo and Lamb continue to get opportunities to move up, SM is no longer just about the $15 trophy. We are going to see a flood of young go-kart racers moving through for a few seasons to transition to pro racing. For that crowd there is a vested interest in maximizing prep on everything they can.

Sorry about the previous post, i forgot to include my reply before I hit send.

This is similar to what happened when I was shifter kart racing. It became the stepping stone to the next step, Skip barber, SCCA, etc. There were toter homes, 30ft trailers, $5-$6000.00 spare motors, etc. A lot of drivers either quit, or lobbied to go to a "stock moto" Honda cr-125 class to cut cost and reclaim the class for the average racer.

Dave Armstrong
#66SM

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quote:
Originally posted by Wreckerboy:
Just blink once for yes, twice for no....

[Eek!]

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quote:
Originally posted by Motor City Hamilton:
I like SM because the depth of the field. I always have a number of cars at my level of budget, prep or driving skills to race with....

..... SM is becoming a stepping stone to pro racing. If more guys like Pombo and Lamb continue to get opportunities to move up, SM is no longer just about the $15 trophy. We are going to see a flood of young go-kart racers moving through for a few seasons to transition to pro racing. For that crowd there is a vested interest in maximizing prep on everything they can.

Motor City - you have nailed the conundrum on the head.

It is precisely the classes that offer close competitive racing will attract the majority of competive racers. Competitive racers want to race, bang doors, drag knees, scratch paint and essentially earn their victory.

And so these classes escalate in prominence, and soon you have the very motivated, very ambitious guys out there trying to win at all costs.....

I CANNOT SEE HOW YOU CAN AVOID THIS....

sure you can splinter an SM2, even an SM3 class with a $5k cap and a claim rule, but it will be the class where the numbers are that continues to attract the talent.

And the talent WITH the money will spend it, if not on fuel, then on ECU's, if not ECU's then on tires of every shave depth (and believe me there was a moment this past weekend when I WISHED I had INTERMEDIATES for the Sprints as I knew it wouldnt be really wet, but it was a damp and drying track not suitable for 1/16", and I really wished I had something like a 4/16" shave!!!!). Or they will find something else to spend it on. No avoiding this - this is human nature.

So then do you regulate how many rims or tires a racer can have (and how do you regulate it) and if that rules gets established and is enforceable, then you will see those with the budget moving to more expensive data systems with more analog and digital sensors and iputs (some already have them and have dedicated data engineers) or possibly even live data telemetry or some other far out expensive gray area that gives a real or percieved advantage.

This is an envelope that will forever be pushed. Do not beleive you can contain it.

BUT I DO BELIEVE THAT WE SHOULD DO EVERYTHING WE CAN DO to contain write enforceable rules, and contain the costs. NO ONE LIKES SPENDING $30 per gallon on gas. NO ONE!

[ 07-02-2010, 06:44 AM: Message edited by: Danny Steyn ]

--------------------
Danny
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Danny,

I agree with a lot of what you've posted above, however fields have been shrinking over the last couple years. That's a problem - for the class and for amateur racing in general.

Many of the folks I know personally that have left the class say the reason is "they feel the class has passed them by". I feel like this too sometimes, and was seriously considering doing something else last year.

The SE Div is blessed to still have relatively large fields but I can tell you in the GreatLakes participation is way down. 40 cars fields of a few years ago are now 10-12 car fields.

I really think the SCCA needs to get a handle on this or SM will no longer be the class it once was. Let's not forget what made this class so popular in the first place.

-Denny

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quote:
Originally posted by d mathias:
Danny,


Many of the folks I know personally that have left the class say the reason is "they feel the class has passed them by". I feel like this too sometimes, and was seriously considering doing something else last year.


-Denny

Denny
It's not just mid pack guys... I feel the same way. The events are just not the same, one of the best events I went to was that first time I met most of you at Mid Ohio. You guys had a huge field, BBQ and parties etc. It was a lot of fun. I didnt win, I spun out in on race and broke in the other. I even had my car wrapped in stretch film, you name it, it happened. But it was still more fun than many weekends that I win on track now. Not sure what the difference is, but I agree, it was far better in 02-05 than it is now.
Jim

--------------------
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quote:
Originally posted by d mathias:
Danny,

I agree with a lot of what you've posted above, however fields have been shrinking over the last couple years. That's a problem - for the class and for amateur racing in general.

Many of the folks I know personally that have left the class say the reason is "they feel the class has passed them by". I feel like this too sometimes, and was seriously considering doing something else last year.

The SE Div is blessed to still have relatively large fields but I can tell you in the GreatLakes participation is way down. 40 cars fields of a few years ago are now 10-12 car fields.

I really think the SCCA needs to get a handle on this or SM will no longer be the class it once was. Let's not forget what made this class so popular in the first place.

-Denny

No doubt, some have been sidelined for reasons you mentioned, but I can think of two other BIG reasons for your Divisions smaller fields

1)economy

2)creation of great lakes division reducing the overall home membership.

--------------------
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Drago; yeah, not as much fun without Erik Stearns in the mix ...
[Big Grin]
but, von Charbs certainly keeps things lively
[yep]
BTW; the "conundrum" deal happened waay back, since '04 into '05, with the Miata Pro Series, drivers like Coello, Long, Buras, the original JD, inSaini, then on to Caddell, Carbonell, etc, etc, all went pro after perfecting their craft in SM.
All of them had ultra prep cars, no nonsense, i'm here to win attitudes.
It is what it is.

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quote:
Originally posted by guest driver:
Drago; yeah, not as much fun without Erik Stearns in the mix ...
[Big Grin]

yeah, he definitey adds his own style of excitement to the weekends [Smile]

--------------------
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Sometimes it is just too funny what you find when you search this forum to see what issues have been raised in the past! Read this one from 2002 regarding rules, spirit of the class, and tech shed legal!

http://forum.specmiata.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?/topic/43/1105.html#000000

--------------------
Paul McLester

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read about half way down this thread...

http://forum.specmiata.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?/topic/43/2983.html#000000

--------------------
Paul McLester

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quote:
Originally posted by Danny Steyn:
[QBBUT I DO BELIEVE THAT WE SHOULD DO EVERYTHING WE CAN DO to contain write enforceable rules, and contain the costs. NO ONE LIKES SPENDING $30 per gallon on gas. NO ONE![/QB]

I do agree with you Danny, we should do everything we can ro write enforceable rules. We should never give up on that. I'm just not seeing any solutions so far and this is not a new problem. NASA did something about it and I applaud their willingness to make that tough decision. I'm sure they struggled with the same ideals too, but in the end it was the right thing to do.

-bw

--------------------
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Yep Paul and Carlos, nothing new under the sun. These issues have been argued ad nauseum for years, and not just in our little class. Students of motorsports history are familiar with the exploits of Mr. Penske, Mr. Yunick, et al. My personal favorite is the Junior Johnson 'Banana car'. Don't get me started on 'Cheatin' Chad Knaus.

I keep coming back for more 'cause I'm addicted to the self-directed roller-coaster rides. Once I lowered my expectations I started having fun again.

quote:
car wrapped in stretch film
Classic.

-D [thumbsup]

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I vote we all head down to tech park the cars and then just take turns driving Drago and Dannys car around. [Big Grin]

--------------------
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I will stick with mine [Smile]

--------------------
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quote:
Originally posted by Jamie Tucker:
I will stick with mine [Smile]

You couldn't reach the pedal in a normal car. [Smile]

--------------------
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quote:
Originally posted by Blake Clements:
quote:
Originally posted by Jamie Tucker:
I will stick with mine [Smile]

You couldn't reach the pedal in a normal car. [Smile]
That would not be as funny if it were not true!!! [Big Grin]

--------------------
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quote:
Originally posted by Jamie Tucker:
quote:
Originally posted by Blake Clements:
quote:
Originally posted by Jamie Tucker:
I will stick with mine [Smile]

You couldn't reach the pedal in a normal car. [Smile]
That would not be as funny if it were not true!!! [Big Grin]
It would be a site watching you drive my car around [Big Grin]

--------------------
Jim Drago
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quote:
Originally posted by Drago:
quote:
Originally posted by Jamie Tucker:
quote:
Originally posted by Blake Clements:
quote:
Originally posted by Jamie Tucker:
I will stick with mine [Smile]

You couldn't reach the pedal in a normal car. [Smile]
That would not be as funny if it were not true!!! [Big Grin]
It would be a site watching you drive my car around [Big Grin]
I did pick up your car in Daytona a few years ago and had to drive it down international blvd to get to the track. I can only imagine what the other drivers on the road thought when they saw your SM cruising down the road with a driver that they could not see.

--------------------
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I've never met Jamie but he sounds some what like he's with me in the vertically challenged department. I could always take the wooden blocks off of the pedals if anybody wants to switch with me.And Jim if thats gas can get you 2-3 extra HP then your going to need a truck load to get my car to run, I need some 10-15 HP gas, Anybody?

--------------------
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