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Author Topic: Runoffs notes from Jim Daniels
JIM DANIELS Verified Driver Made Donation to Website Series Champ
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First, don't come up here thinking you have any friends.

Second, join Tony's driving school for non 99s if you want a chance for a top 5. (he made the underdog proud)

Third, don't buy anything on hype, DDG and J.L.
proved that today.

Lastly, no way in hell any driver in any level of 1.6 will ever beat a '99 at this track.

Same old shit I said last year.

[ 09-30-2010, 09:32 AM: Message edited by: JIM DANIELS ]

--------------------
Jim Daniels

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Dwayne Hoover Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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I guess the guys that said the 99 would be added to the class as an underdog and would nev er be allowed to dominate the class either sold us a bill of goods, or they were wrong?

Anyone remember who those guys were? [Wink]

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JIM DANIELS Verified Driver Made Donation to Website Series Champ
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Was me but I had no clue we would have these motor and weight rules. 1.6 lost cams, 1.8 got weight while the 99 made ground via motor rules. Am I wrong here?

--------------------
Jim Daniels

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quote:
Originally posted by JIM DANIELS:
Lastly, no way in hell any driver in any level of 1.6 will ever beat a '99 at this track.

Hi Jim,
Some 37 '99 owners might disagree with that statement! [Big Grin] Point taken though.

I'm curious about your thoughts on how the 94-97 cars stackup against the 99-00's in light of the results. Coello's car appeared very well matched to the 99's.

Based on today's observations, what's everyone's take on the proposal to allow NB suspensions on NA's? If you believe that the new suspension is a significant improvement (I'm unconvinced), how do you prevent the 94-97 from being an overdog?

Pete Maerz

B Wilson Verified Driver Series Champ
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quote:
Originally posted by JIM DANIELS:
Was me but I had no clue we would have these motor and weight rules. 1.6 lost cams, 1.8 got weight while the 99 made ground via motor rules. Am I wrong here?

You are not wrong Jim. We really messed things up and it may be just too late to fix. West coast will be 99s in 2 years. How did this become a one make, one year class?

-bw

--------------------
Bruce Wilson
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Danny Steyn Verified Driver
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Bruce - how do you account for the NASA results at Miller?

--------------------
Danny
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Drago Verified Driver Made Donation to Website Series Champ
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quote:
Originally posted by JIM DANIELS:
Was me but I had no clue we would have these motor and weight rules. 1.6 lost cams, 1.8 got weight while the 99 made ground via motor rules. Am I wrong here?

well perhaps not wrong, but not the entire story either? [Wink]

The 1.6 didnt lose cams anymore than the 1.8 or the 99? When cam specs came in, the came in for all.

1.8 got weight and larger restrictor and 4.3 gear, imo, the 94/97 is still a little heavy.

99 gained weight two years ago from 2425 and made no gains in motor rules that the other cars didnt make? The gains over most pro engines are unmeasurable, new rules vs old,just more enforceable, even though we chose not to enforce them? [Confused]

Lastly, the cars will NEVER be equal. AS JD has said since 2000 or so? BUILD WHATEVER YOU FEEL IS THE BEST CAR FOR WHERE YOURACE. They are very close and ALL cars can win. If we want equality, we need to make SM a single car class nationally and it wouldnt be the older cars... 99/05 Nationally and 90/05 regionally. DDG is right once every 4 or 5 years,he is right on this as well. Short of that, we have more senseless 25 lbs and 2 mm adjustments.
No one wants to lose "their" car,andIdont blame them, so close is all we get, not equal. But we are pretty dam close now.

--------------------
Jim Drago
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quote:
Originally posted by JIM DANIELS:
Am I wrong here?

Yes. [Smile]

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Dwayne Hoover Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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quote:
Originally posted by Drago:
DDG is right once every 4 or 5 years,he is right on this as well.

Yeah, but if my Sunday School memory and my arithmetic skills are still in tact, that means "Lucifer" has been right somewhere around 500-600 times!

(I think Dave will take this as a compliment, so I feel like I'm on solid ground with this one ... )

--------------------
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JIM DANIELS Verified Driver Made Donation to Website Series Champ
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"At this track"

I don't need the CRB to tell me what parity is Mr. Drago. Also, who wants a class where you need a track specific car then that car needs the mojo on top? Sad!

To quote a top five driver in a '99.

"It's unbealiavble that Tony put that 1.8 on the podium, those cars are slugs". I should have asked his opinion on the 1.6.

That is my report, back to SM as usual now.

--------------------
Jim Daniels

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quote:
Originally posted by Danny Steyn:
Bruce - how do you account for the NASA results at Miller?

The Nasa race was a 1.6 race, pretty cool we still have those. Next two years in MO, and things will be different since the West coast shoes will stay home and the 99 will dominate because that is what all the East coast shoes drive.

There are solutions after the sub-frame upgrade. But I think it's time to forget the incremental fixes and set a full upgrade rule in place.

-bw

--------------------
Bruce Wilson
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Steven Holloway Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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+1

I kinda like my car and would rather spend only a few K's (the price of freshening an engine) to keep it competitive, rather than 10-15 K's to build a '99.

--------------------
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quote:
Originally posted by Steven Holloway:
+1

I kinda like my car and would rather spend only a few K's (the price of freshening an engine) to keep it competitive, rather than 10-15 K's to build a '99.

No one says you can't keep the car you have and just have fun in the back of the field.

--------------------
Do I turn my 99 Hard S into a killerfast SM or seek a donor?

Steven Holloway Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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quote:
Originally posted by Kent Carter:
quote:
Originally posted by Steven Holloway:
+1

I kinda like my car and would rather spend only a few K's (the price of freshening an engine) to keep it competitive, rather than 10-15 K's to build a '99.

No one says you can't keep the car you have and just have fun in the back of the field.
This is true...however, it's called competition for a reason.
I'd rather have a lower priced option to feel competitive than building another car.

--------------------
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How about making the 1.6 2400 lbs, and than adjust the restrictors on the other cars. That way everyone could drive any car and make weight. If everyone could make weight we would have more options for our bigger drivers. [Smile]

Pat

--------------------
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Or better yet....

2400 lbs for ALL cars
Adjustable timing for ALL cars
Adjustable A/F ratio for ALL cars
NB or NA suspensions legal on ALL cars
1.6 or 1.8L brakes legal on ALL cars
RP's revisited to equalize power between generations

Run your favorite gen car with NO EXCUSES [thumbsup]

--------------------
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Since we have plenty of 1.8's now how about a split class SMA and SMB. Even with split classes you would have more entries in both classes than probably 75% of the rest of the classes. Plus I wouldn't feel the need to update($) to TRY to keep up with a 1.8 !!

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quote:
Originally posted by Dan Tiley:
Or better yet....

2400 lbs for ALL cars
Adjustable timing for ALL cars
Adjustable A/F ratio for ALL cars
NB or NA suspensions legal on ALL cars
1.6 or 1.8L brakes legal on ALL cars
RP's revisited to equalize power between generations

Run your favorite gen car with NO EXCUSES [thumbsup]

I want to put a 1.6 diff in my 99 [Smile]

--------------------
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quote:
Originally posted by Blake Clements:
I want to put a 1.6 diff in my 99 [Smile]

Me too [Wink] We'll add it to the list for this little pipe dream we've started....

2400 lbs for ALL cars
Adjustable timing for ALL cars
Adjustable A/F ratio for ALL cars
NB or NA suspensions legal on ALL cars
1.6 or 1.8L brakes legal on ALL cars
4.3 gears for ALL cars
Any 89-04 Miata diff (Open, Viscous, Torsen, MC) for ALL cars

RP's revisited to equalize power between generations

Run your favorite gen car with NO EXCUSES

--------------------
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QKLTQWhljG8

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quote:
Originally posted by Blake Clements:
quote:
Originally posted by Dan Tiley:
Or better yet....

2400 lbs for ALL cars
Adjustable timing for ALL cars
Adjustable A/F ratio for ALL cars
NB or NA suspensions legal on ALL cars
1.6 or 1.8L brakes legal on ALL cars
RP's revisited to equalize power between generations

Run your favorite gen car with NO EXCUSES [thumbsup]

I want to put a 1.6 diff in my 99 [Smile]
You can do that now. Nobody's looking. Let 'er rip.

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quote:
Originally posted by Tom Sager:
quote:
Originally posted by Blake Clements:
quote:
Originally posted by Dan Tiley:
Or better yet....

2400 lbs for ALL cars
Adjustable timing for ALL cars
Adjustable A/F ratio for ALL cars
NB or NA suspensions legal on ALL cars
1.6 or 1.8L brakes legal on ALL cars
RP's revisited to equalize power between generations

Run your favorite gen car with NO EXCUSES [thumbsup]

I want to put a 1.6 diff in my 99 [Smile]
You can do that now. Nobody's looking. Let 'er rip. I'm thinking about putting in a 6-speed and changing the final drive for next year.

Drago Verified Driver Made Donation to Website Series Champ
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quote:
Originally posted by mr von charbonneau:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QKLTQWhljG8

"Feel good" by the Gorillaz... How appropriate is that [Smile] Kind like a tribute from Steve? Funny stuff!

--------------------
Jim Drago
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thanks i alwas liked that song but never understood the lyrics. i understand them less now.
quote:
Originally posted by mr von charbonneau:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QKLTQWhljG8


--------------------
Steven Elicati
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David Levin
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When is the 1.8 coming to the 90-93. As a rookie and a tight budget racer i would love to put a 1.8 in the car rather than get spanked by all the 99's. Not that i run at the pointy end but what brought me to this class in the begining of the year was the dream of affordable racing, i understand what these guys put in to their programs to contend at a national level and do not expect to be equal but with all the rule changes allowing the rearend, frontend lets just make the changes that need to be changed to get a level starting point no matter what year. Most all competitors build, buy motors even a person on a tight budget can and will do a motor swap to get to a level field. And thats what we all want a feeling of all having the same chance. The top guys on this site know what it will truley take to get this class back to a level field so instead of having this conversation another million times lets just get there.

--------------------
DaveL

JIM DANIELS Verified Driver Made Donation to Website Series Champ
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quote:
Originally posted by JIM DANIELS:
Was me but I had no clue we would have these motor and weight rules. 1.6 lost cams, 1.8 got weight while the 99 made ground via motor rules. Am I wrong here?

Replace cams with flywheel, point is the same.

As for Miller, a '99 would have won if one showed up. The one there was 10 HP down to what we see out here passing tech.

Either allow all cars to run the '99 gear (motor to brakes) or the class needs to be split. We have SSB cars racing T3 cars out there right now, a defenseless joke. One of you top '99 guys just need to pick your favorite 1.6 buddy's car and swap with him. The debate will end rather quickly. Spare me the level of prep story, I'm not the guy to spew that on.

We all hit the dyno this week (everyone said it was reading low). My guy was 124/112 in a '99 and we could not draft with 5 other '99s. But, we could pass ALL the 1.6s at will anywhere, sad.

That said, the driving among the top '99s (And Tony C. in the '97) was excellent and the podium guys are real shoe men. Congrats, again!

--------------------
Jim Daniels

MAZDARACERS.COM

JIM DANIELS Verified Driver Made Donation to Website Series Champ
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quote:
Originally posted by David Levin:
When is the 1.8 coming to the 90-93. As a rookie and a tight budget racer i would love to put a 1.8 in the car rather than get spanked by all the 99's. Not that i run at the pointy end but what brought me to this class in the begining of the year was the dream of affordable racing, i understand what these guys put in to their programs to contend at a national level and do not expect to be equal but with all the rule changes allowing the rearend, frontend lets just make the changes that need to be changed to get a level starting point no matter what year. Most all competitors build, buy motors even a person on a tight budget can and will do a motor swap to get to a level field. And thats what we all want a feeling of all having the same chance. The top guys on this site know what it will truley take to get this class back to a level field so instead of having this conversation another million times lets just get there.

+1

--------------------
Jim Daniels

MAZDARACERS.COM

B Wilson Verified Driver Series Champ
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I know the SMAC/CRB is listening. Have we all come to the same conclusion and how is that possible? [Smile]

I get folks asking me to say split the class, so there I said it. We can see where the car counts ends up and the early cars can decide if they want to go National or not if they still dominate the counts in a few years.

And allow the upgrades... Take a look at this Profab 1.6 build that is almost done.

http://www.facebook.com/#!/album.php?aid=2815&id=100000079713383

My last year's 1.6 build was not as extensive, but level of prep will be equal. And there's more where that came from. How would we feel about selling our cars for pennies on the dollar and having to build a 99?!?!?

-bw

--------------------
Bruce Wilson
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Sorry if this is a naive question: why cannot the 99's be handicapped through weight, restrictor, etc. to achieve parity? There are plenty of other multi make classes, like HP, EP, etc, where the different cars have different allowances.

-Juan

--------------------
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It is time to split the 99's out on their own without RP, weight, and open the ecu. Allow the 00-present MX-5 if you want to keep the class alive for the next 30 years and give them competitive adjustments if necessary.

--------------------
Paul McLester

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I vote for Playing Golf or This; This is Badass

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNqx8XZIWnI

--------------------
[URL=http://www.toddburas.com]
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quote:
Originally posted by Juan Pineda:
Sorry if this is a naive question: why cannot the 99's be handicapped through weight, restrictor, etc. to achieve parity? There are plenty of other multi make classes, like HP, EP, etc, where the different cars have different allowances.

-Juan

They are already equal at almost every track so unless the rules become track specific I doubt it is going to get any closer than what it is now.

--------------------
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B Wilson Verified Driver Series Champ
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Well I think they were closer a few years ago but that is just my opinion. No matter, I'm not pushing for adjustments anyway.

-bw

--------------------
Bruce Wilson
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quote:
Originally posted by Gatoratty:
It is time to split the 99's out on their own without RP, weight, and open the ecu. Allow the 00-present MX-5 if you want to keep the class alive for the next 30 years and give them competitive adjustments if necessary.

I think this is what most of the non-99 owners would like to see happen at this point. Either way, split the class and allow the upgrade option.

-bw

--------------------
Bruce Wilson
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racerfink Verified Driver
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The thing I notice most is, the cars ARE equal as far as lap times go, AT MOST TRACKS. But, a '99 can pull out and pass a 1.6, but not vice-versa.

Either give 1.6's more torque, or take away torque from the '99's.

--------------------
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I was a Non-99 owner and I thought the 99 was the car to have. So I buy the 99 and you know what, it wasn't the car. I am from the SE, and the tracks I race (daytona, Sebring, RR, PBIR)the 1.6 is as good, if not better on these tracks. OK, Daytona the 99 is better for me.

The SIC at RR is in 2 weeks and the 1.6 will be a contender to win. I wish I still had mine. The 99 is hard to drive IMO (I am relatively new to racing and all I ever have known was my 1.6). Different brakes, car handles different, heavier.

I agree with Jamie, unless you want to make changes track specific the cars are real close.

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It's really not an equality problem. The supposed equality is dialed in by the ruleset (and I admit that they generally have done well given what they have.)

But all you '99 owners screaming that we shouldn't split off 99's, answer me this.

Split off 99 and up cars...remove weight, and remove restrictors, add adjustable timing and FP regulators. How would you feel about it now?

--------------------
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Simple...

1.6 class. As the rule are right now...chassis original stock.

1.8 class. 94-04. 99 would be the stock benchmark...running stock airbox with no RP. 94-97 would be allowed intake and any small items to match stock 99. Suspension/subframe stock for 99 and up. 94-97 allowed to run stock or 99 subframe/suspension...owners choice. NB years beyond 99 modified with RP to meet 99 HP. All cars allowed FP and or ecu to allow equal(or consistant) power/torque band. 2400lbs for all. Max. HP allowed....although I realize dyno's are different...this would be tough. But with the ability to calculate HP via GPS...maybe that's possible to keep things at a maximum ceiling.

Regional levels cars run in same group with split start...assuming car counts allow this(not to large).

National level...seperate run groups! No doubt enough cars would sign up to demand this(many teams/individual would run both groups!)and it couldn't be ignored by SCCA because more cars means more money. Many top 1.6 regional guys who suddenely felt they had an opportunity would pony up and be eager to make the trip. I could easily envision 100+ Miata's at Nationals.

Maybe I'm wrong but I think it's silly to continue to use a 20yr old car as a benchmark. NB's(and 94-97's which have become an after thought because of restrictions) are becoming more available...1.6's will always be available.

NA's(90-93) will continue to allow the newbie's to get into racing at a more affordable cost...and feel after a little seat time they can get to the front. Why stiffle the growth of the community by continuing to try and create parity over 3 generations. [twocents]

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-RA


"Happy birthday, I didn't get you a present...Oh, mom got you one? Well, that's from me then too, unless it's shitty."
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cnj
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Region: SW Division
Car #: 32
Year : 1999
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Deja vu circa 09.  Are we are going to have exactly the same discussions we had last year after Runoffs?  An avalanche of posts with 90 owners complaining that the 99 is an over dog, the 99 owners saying it ain't so and pointing to prep and driver skill.  Finally most people tacitly agree that RA is a 99 track and should not dictate modifications to the cars for the entire country? 

Do we know how to get the cars more equal (not the same as parity)?  Sure.  Make the suspension more equal (so they handle the same, thus no advantage).  Make the weight more equal (so corner entry and hence driving style is more equal).  Make the engine power and more importantly torque curves more equal (as Mark Pombo said a few months ago regarding his 90 - "TORQUE, I need more TORQUE!").  Can we do this?  Only if people are willing to allow the SMAC/others to be creative in their suggestions and are willing to spend a little money on their cars.  However as a class we resist spending any money, even modest amounts, on changes.  Unless its someone else spending the money of course.

Do we have parity right now?  I would not personally take a 90 to RA.  Some did.  But in my back yard in SW Div I get spanked by 90's all too often and I know I have a highly prepped 99 and would like to think I am a decent driver.  The evidence for 90's doing well at several of the SW Div tracks is not apocryphal.

Split the class?  Sure and then I race against half the numbers I am running with right now.  Makes changing to Spec Ford Racer sound very appealing.  Lets not mess up large fields. 

Craig J

B Wilson Verified Driver Series Champ
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Mike Collins post about not being able to find a good way to add torque to 1.6 says it all. IT's NOT GOING TO HAPPEN. So I agree, why keep having the same conversation year after year? 1) Allow for the upgarde and or 2) split the class.

-bw

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Bruce Wilson
2010 Oregon Region Champ
2010 Monte Shelton Driver of the Year
2010 25 Hours of Thunderhill E3 and Under 2 liter Overall Champion
Oregon Region SM Class Advisor

B Wilson Verified Driver Series Champ
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Why should we care about the runoffs results, because I feel that the future health of SM relies on everyone having a chance to be competitive from the weekly regional races to the big show at the end of the year. Yes, holding the runoffs at RA has amplified this problem. It is pretty evident that there's a lot of people that think it's okay to only have one year being competitive for the runoffs, but it appears that ALL of those people also own that year.

-bw

--------------------
Bruce Wilson
2010 Oregon Region Champ
2010 Monte Shelton Driver of the Year
2010 25 Hours of Thunderhill E3 and Under 2 liter Overall Champion
Oregon Region SM Class Advisor

Tom Sager Made Donation to Website
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Adding more classes is an SCCA disease. I don't see it happening nor should it IMO. We can make these cars closer but it will cost people some money. The SMAC and CRB simply have to have the will to do it. For the good of the class, it should be done NOW.

Tom Sager Made Donation to Website
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quote:
Originally posted by B Wilson:
Mike Collins post about not being able to find a good way to add torque to 1.6 says it all. IT's NOT GOING TO HAPPEN. So I agree, why keep having the same conversation year after year? 1) Allow for the upgarde and or 2) split the class.

-bw

Bull $%#&ing shyt. There are any number of ways to add HP/torque to a 1.6. Think about it. If the mandate was to add weight and HP/torque to the 1.6 to bring the cars closer to the same, it could be done. You simply have to decide that you're going to do it an then do it.

Kent Carter Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
Future Never Has Been

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quote:
Originally posted by Tom Sager:
quote:
Originally posted by B Wilson:
Mike Collins post about not being able to find a good way to add torque to 1.6 says it all. IT's NOT GOING TO HAPPEN. So I agree, why keep having the same conversation year after year? 1) Allow for the upgarde and or 2) split the class.

-bw

Bull $%#&ing shyt. There are any number of ways to add HP/torque to a 1.6. Think about it. If the mandate was to add weight and HP/torque to the 1.6 to bring the cars closer to the same, it could be done. You simply have to decide that you're going to do it an then do it.
I agree... let's make a list of ways:
1. Flywheel (apparent torque = real torque and it doesn't change horsepower at the top end)
2. Camshafts (more complex as both T and HP may be affected)

Any more ideas?

--------------------
Do I turn my 99 Hard S into a killerfast SM or seek a donor?

Ron Alan Made Donation to Website
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quote:
Originally posted by Tom Sager:
Adding more classes is an SCCA disease. I don't see it happening nor should it IMO. We can make these cars closer but it will cost people some money. The SMAC and CRB simply have to have the will to do it. For the good of the class, it should be done NOW.

I understand this and will defer my opinion of adding classes(if it is a disease)to those with more time and experience out there. But I do know this...SM would at least justify this by car count. It does seem kind of silly to send a car around after a race with the checkered flag when he was only racing himself! And yes I would agree that these classes with 0,1,2 cars in a race makes no sense...let the masses dictate the classes. If your a loner modify your car for a class with numbers or change directions. Trying to please everyone is a disease...look at our government! As I write Tom's point just sunk in! [Wink]

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-RA


"Happy birthday, I didn't get you a present...Oh, mom got you one? Well, that's from me then too, unless it's shitty."
9:52 AM Sep 14th, 2009 via web
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David Levin
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Give me the gear. It will be easier than slowing the 99's down. We all know what it takes to compete let me decide on how competitive my car CAN be. Seems simple, all ALLOWED the same motor, suspension, rear end then we can all be at the same weight it shouldn't be this hard. But these rules just cant be mandatory. I want to improve in SM not a lessor class dont push me out because i drive a 90.

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DaveL

Chris Haldeman
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4.44 ish rear gear in the 1.6 cars better acceleration and little less top end it should equal them up pretty good.imo but only availible for the torsen rear 4.57 is also availible for the torsen

Steven Holloway Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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How about 1st oversize pistons as sold by Mazda.
Tiny bit more displacement, tiny bit more torque.
Completely voluntary for 1.6's, easy to do at the next rebuild, still a Mazda part. Makes that "throwaway the block or spendy sleeving" moot.

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If you can't fix it with a hammer, it's got electrical problems.

D.B. Cutler Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Splitting the class is a really bad idea. The SCCA already has WAY too many classes and all it's going to do is reduce car counts.

I say keep working towards parity. How about allowing 1.6L cars to upgrade to 1.8L engines. Then set up the 1.8L so that everyone is at the same(ish) horsepower. Eventually all of the 1.6L engines will be gone or be used in Regionals. This way at least a guy like me with an older car can keep racing in the class and having fun.

racerfink Verified Driver
Gig 'em Aggies

Region: Central Florida Region
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Year : '90 Miata
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If you look at every single SCCA class that's seen better days, the one thing you notice is rules/spending creep.

If spending half of what I spent to put my car together is required for me to stay in the top 10 at regional events, I'll move to another class.

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'90 Spec Miata
'90 Street Miata
'96 Chevy 1500
http://www.AutoTechnikRacing.com
www.myspace.com/projecthband

 
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