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Author Topic: BOD decisions on 2011 rules changes
Drago Verified Driver Made Donation to Website Series Champ
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The BOD had their meeting this weekend in Topeka.

The next Fastrak will show that the BOD passed open timing and fuel pressure in all year cars. That will be legal 1/1/11. The definition will be in the next Fastrak as well. ( It will still be illegal to remap the ECU)

The BOD did not pass the update/backdate on the suspension. At this point, unless an overwhelming show of support for this change comes to the SMAC/CRB, the CRB/SMAC will likely not bring it back for approval to the BOD for 2012.

These rules went through normal SCCA processes and procedures and were voted on 10/16

The SMAC has their first post Runoffs meeting this Wednesday night and they will discuss the 2011 season and the 2010 Runoffs.

Jim Drago
CRB

--------------------
Jim Drago
East Street Auto Salvage
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John Mueller Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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quote:
Originally posted by Drago:
The next Fastrak will show that the BOD passed open timing and fuel pressure in all year cars. That will be legal 1/1/11. The definition will be in the next Fastrak as well. ( It will still be illegal to remap the ECU)

The BOD did not pass the update/backdate on the suspension. At this point, unless an overwhelming show of support for this change comes to the SMAC/CRB, the CRB/SMAC will likely not bring it back for approval to the BOD for 2012.

These rules went through normal SCCA processes and procedures and were voted on 10/16

Absolutely GREAT news !!!

--------------------
Thanks,
John Mueller
NASA SM National Director
http://www.Weekend-Racer.com
#13 "Tiger Miata" - 2009 SoCal SSM Champion

Alex Bolanos Verified Driver Series Champ
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Excellent!

Qik Nip Verified Driver Made Donation to Website Series Champ
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Sounds like we Gen I drivers just might have been heard. Great news.
Rick
P.S. I just had a lot of work (and expense) eliminated from my winter efforts!

--------------------
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Sean Allen Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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I've been out of the loop this whole season pretty much. But, it's on all years? What exactly does this mean for 1.6's? It's open timing/FP a 99+ thing?

fishguyaz
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so for someone like me in a 99 car can someone provide a link for the parts needed to change my timing and fuel pressure.
I dont claim to be a great mechanic, but am learning; so the follow up question is, which direction do i want to adjust the timing and the fuel pressure?
i guess i should have a clue before heading out to the dyno.
thanks in advance
Josh

--------------------
Josh Pitt
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Jeff Lyon Verified Driver
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From my understanding, the open timing/fuel pressure primarily helps the 99+ cars, which were the HP kings to start with. Sounds like the powers that be want the masses to start moving to the NB's. [twocents]

--------------------
Jeff
NorCal/SFR
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quote:
Originally posted by John Mueller:
Absolutely GREAT news !!!

So, John, any input on whether these SCCA changes are likely to be adopted by NASA?

Blake Clements Verified Driver Series Champ
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I'll be writing my letter on the 2012 Suspension change for the early cars and would hope that others that support the move would do so as well. Anything we can do to achieve near equality for the year models is good in my mind.

Now for the Mazdacomp diff in my 1.8 car.... That may have to be a different letter [Smile]

--------------------
Blake Clements

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Cajun Miata Man Verified Driver
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quote:
Originally posted by fishguyaz:
so for someone like me in a 99 car can someone provide a link for the parts needed to change my timing and fuel pressure.
I dont claim to be a great mechanic, but am learning; so the follow up question is, which direction do i want to adjust the timing and the fuel pressure?
i guess i should have a clue before heading out to the dyno.
thanks in advance
Josh

I would recommend if you don't know the effects of the adjustments, it might be best to leave it alone. Typically, timing more and FP less; but you can go too far.......

--------------------
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Jeff,
Many of the fast 99s already have the timing and FP changed by way of modified ECUs. Although non-compliant, it is pretty common and un-enforceable. So, what the new rule does is allow everyone to fix those two items, by other than remapping the ECU.
Adjustments can then be made, to the RP and/or weight, to equalize the performance potential between the various cars.
So, no, the powers that be don't want everyone to move to the NBs.
wheel

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Part of the SMACs reserch into the fuel pressure regulator was to have a system in place for the 99+ cars.

I built and tested a prototype system this summer. I had the prototype at the Runoffs and many of you saw it there.

I will begine the process of getting quantities of the parts ordered this afternoon and will have kits available in a couple weeks.

If you can change a fuel filter, you can install this system. I use factory style fuel lines and fittings. The fuel sample port is built into the regulator, so you can attach a gauge easily. I would say the default pressure at 55 psi. Your particular car may vary.

The timing wheel is located behind the harmonic balancer, You need to take the alt. belt and 4 bolts off to remove the balancer and the timing wheel. A dremel tool is used to slot the bolt holes in the timing wheel.

Just as the default timing for a NA car is 14* from the factory setting of 10*, the default setting for a 99 is plus 4 degrees. Again, your results may vary.

When I have more info on the regulator I will let everybody know, give me a day or 2.

Dave

--------------------
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John Mueller Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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quote:
Originally posted by chrisp993:
quote:
Originally posted by John Mueller:
Absolutely GREAT news !!!

So, John, any input on whether these SCCA changes are likely to be adopted by NASA?
AT this time I can only say with 100% conviction that NASA was not going to allow the suspension update mods... Open timing & FP are still on the table, being considered and will be involved in our tests.

--------------------
Thanks,
John Mueller
NASA SM National Director
http://www.Weekend-Racer.com
#13 "Tiger Miata" - 2009 SoCal SSM Champion

cam Verified Driver
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First thanks for all the time and effort of the various boards that support our sport.

Very disappoint that the suspension upgrades were not passed for the early model Miatas. For the early model owners that need to replace worn out parts anyway and want the 1.6 to be closer to the 99s, this is a sad day. The 99+ K frame and steering rack is around $300 used, control arms and spindle can be reused. Or I can pick up 20 year old used parts for around the same price that might or might not already be worn out. Or spend a lot of money on new parts with an inferior design. This was proposed as an optional upgrade path, why does anyone want to limit the source of good used parts?

--------------------
"The problem with Socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money."
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quote:
Originally posted by Drago:
The next Fastrak will show that the BOD passed open timing and fuel pressure in all year cars. That will be legal 1/1/11. The definition will be in the next Fastrak as well. ( It will still be illegal to remap the ECU)

Dyno shops are celebrating nationwide!

-Pete Maerz

Blake Clements Verified Driver Series Champ
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quote:
Originally posted by cam:
This was proposed as an optional upgrade path, why does anyone want to limit the source of good used parts?

Agree with you on that Charles. Also cuts down on unnecessary expenses for those with both cars needing interchangeable parts.

--------------------
Blake Clements

PhillipsRacePrep/SP Induction Systems/East Street Racing/MiataCage.com/Carbotech/WBR Graphics

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Drago Verified Driver Made Donation to Website Series Champ
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quote:
Originally posted by breathesfire:
quote:
Originally posted by Drago:
The next Fastrak will show that the BOD passed open timing and fuel pressure in all year cars. That will be legal 1/1/11. The definition will be in the next Fastrak as well. ( It will still be illegal to remap the ECU)

Dyno shops are celebrating nationwide!

-Pete Maerz

No need for dyno shops to celebrate? Set timing to 15 degrees and FP to 53/54 psi and your done.

--------------------
Jim Drago
East Street Auto Salvage
jdrago1@aol.com
2006-2007 Mid-West Division
07,09 June Sprints Champion

EAST STREET RACING

taylorf Verified Driver
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quote:
Originally posted by davew:
Part of the SMACs reserch into the fuel pressure regulator was to have a system in place for the 99+ cars.

I built and tested a prototype system this summer. I had the prototype at the Runoffs and many of you saw it there.

I will begine the process of getting quantities of the parts ordered this afternoon and will have kits available in a couple weeks.

If you can change a fuel filter, you can install this system. I use factory style fuel lines and fittings. The fuel sample port is built into the regulator, so you can attach a gauge easily. I would say the default pressure at 55 psi. Your particular car may vary.

The timing wheel is located behind the harmonic balancer, You need to take the alt. belt and 4 bolts off to remove the balancer and the timing wheel. A dremel tool is used to slot the bolt holes in the timing wheel.

Just as the default timing for a NA car is 14* from the factory setting of 10*, the default setting for a 99 is plus 4 degrees. Again, your results may vary.

When I have more info on the regulator I will let everybody know, give me a day or 2.

Dave

And you wonder why people complain about the rules being pushed through by folks who want to sell more parts?

[shame]

--------------------
Taylor Ferranti

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Mixed feelings about the suspension upgrades, but ultimately I am glad that they didn't approve them.

A very big expense, with no data to back up whether it was of any real, and significant gain, in performance. I am sure there are a few tracks it might help if the track was bumpy.

Still think that with the 99's already an overdog, this does nothing but enhance that position. Fire away. [Smile]

--------------------
keeping the faith for the 1.6

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So, will it be advantageous to use an adj FP on a 1.6?

--------------------
Lee Tilton
1993 Meowta #04
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Keith in WA Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Fortunately the whole '99 front suspension and rack only cost me $150 and that's one less thing to do this winter. Unfortunately, it takes up a lot of space in the garage for something I can't use.

--------------------
Keith Novak
(Will work for tires)

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quote:
Originally posted by Teamfour:
So, will it be advantageous to use an adj FP on a 1.6?

I do not know -- but I doubt it as my 1.6 goes from lean to rich from 4500 to 7200. So all I can do with FP is move the sweet spot up or down the RPM range. If someone know how I can make the mixture flat (or flater) PM me [Smile]

--------------------
William Keeling a.k.a. Willie the Tard

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quote:
Originally posted by taylorf:
quote:
Originally posted by davew:
When I have more info on the regulator I will let everybody know, give me a day or 2.

Dave

And you wonder why people complain about the rules being pushed through by folks who want to sell more parts?

[shame]

Yeah. I am sure Dave is going to clear an easy $5er on each and every kit. [Roll Eyes]

Last time I checked, the rich guys (guy?) selling SM parts didn't get that way by selling SM parts.

Cut 'em some SMAC slack.

Willie the Tard Verified Driver
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quote:
Originally posted by Steve D.:
quote:
Originally posted by taylorf:
quote:
Originally posted by davew:
When I have more info on the regulator I will let everybody know, give me a day or 2.

Dave

And you wonder why people complain about the rules being pushed through by folks who want to sell more parts?

[shame]

Yeah. I am sure Dave is going to clear an easy $5er on each and every kit. [Roll Eyes]

Last time I checked, the rich guys (guy?) selling SM parts didn't get that way by selling SM parts.

Cut 'em some SMAC slack.

even if it is $1 it still looks bad

--------------------
William Keeling a.k.a. Willie the Tard

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quote:
Originally posted by Steve D.:
quote:
Originally posted by taylorf:
quote:
Originally posted by davew:
When I have more info on the regulator I will let everybody know, give me a day or 2.

Dave

And you wonder why people complain about the rules being pushed through by folks who want to sell more parts?

[shame]

Yeah. I am sure Dave is going to clear an easy $5er on each and every kit. [Roll Eyes]

Last time I checked, the rich guys (guy?) selling SM parts didn't get that way by selling SM parts.

Cut 'em some SMAC slack.

+1
no one doing this makes a buck. As a business there is no such thing as 'profit' in SM racing.
They sell something for $100, have $110 bucks invested including their time which could have been spent elsewhere making a real buck.
We lobby and argue the rules, but low blows are off limits.

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I don't begrudge Dave for selling the part, it's either going to him or Autozone or someone. Hopefully he will hook us up with what we need.

Pat

--------------------
keeping the faith for the 1.6

Arrow Karts

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quote:
Originally posted by Willie the Tard:
quote:
Originally posted by Teamfour:
So, will it be advantageous to use an adj FP on a 1.6?

I do not know -- but I doubt it as my 1.6 goes from lean to rich from 4500 to 7200. So all I can do with FP is move the sweet spot up or down the RPM range. If someone know how I can make the mixture flat (or flater) PM me [Smile]
I guess my question was a double entendre.

First, I doubt an adj FPR will help the 1.6 just because of what you said: the issue is the flatness of the A/F curve, not the fuel pressure itself. I have managed to achieve a fairly flat 12.5 by adjusting the AFM.

Second, I don't think the timing/FP rules did anything more than put the 1.6 further in the hole.

--------------------
Lee Tilton
1993 Meowta #04
Brimtek Motorsports/ Team Four Racing
Team Four Racing

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Or Dave could just let you guys try and figure it out on your own and spend more $$ trying to get it right. This whole class is about niche business markets. From the track side guys to the custom cage suppliers. Its called free market. [soapbox]

--------------------
Glenn
Crew chief Meathead Racing, NE Region Sales Division Race Engineering, The GOLD standard in SM engines, Occasional race slave for OPM Autosports

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I was hoping that the suspension would pass as well. I guess people don't realize that if one car weighs almost 200 lbs more and can get through the corners just as good as the lighter car that it might have a better design. I doubt mazda would have changed it if it didn't improve the handling.

--------------------
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"And you wonder why people complain about the rules being pushed through by folks who want to sell more parts?"

What a pathetic, cynical remark. Those guys are making about $.0001 per hour for the time they spend on this class.

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For those of you who do not know me. Spec Miata is how I pay my bills. I have to show a profit. Sorry about that, but that is how it is.

On another thread, the SMAC was given grief about not testing a proposed rules change. This time we did, and we still get grief.

I took charge of figuring out how to make a readily available fuel pressure regulator work. I did the research, I bought the part at retail price, I designed the bracket, I had a prototype made, I bought the equipment to make the lines, I tested the product.

The first 10 that I sell will pay for the prototype. The second ten will pay for my time. At that point I have thousands of dollars invested with no profit on that investment. How great of a business model is that???

For the statement "Dyno shops are celebrating nationwide!". I gave the baseline specs in my first post above, and Drago restated them. No dyno costs involved. What more do you guys want????

--------------------
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Thank you Dave and Drago for all that you do for the community.

--------------------
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^ +1000

--------------------
Lee Tilton
1993 Meowta #04
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Team Four Racing

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quote:
Originally posted by davew:
For those of you who do not know me. Spec Miata is how I pay my bills. I have to show a profit. Sorry about that, but that is how it is.

On another thread, the SMAC was given grief about not testing a proposed rules change. This time we did, and we still get grief.

I took charge of figuring out how to make a readily available fuel pressure regulator work. I did the research, I bought the part at retail price, I designed the bracket, I had a prototype made, I bought the equipment to make the lines, I tested the product.

The first 10 that I sell will pay for the prototype. The second ten will pay for my time. At that point I have thousands of dollars invested with no profit on that investment. How great of a business model is that???

For the statement "Dyno shops are celebrating nationwide!". I gave the baseline specs in my first post above, and Drago restated them. No dyno costs involved. What more do you guys want????

And this is just one item on which you have invested significant time. I would guess that if you add it all up, you are more profitable NOT being a member of the SMAC.

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quote:
Originally posted by davew:
For those of you who do not know me. Spec Miata is how I pay my bills. I have to show a profit. Sorry about that, but that is how it is.

On another thread, the SMAC was given grief about not testing a proposed rules change. This time we did, and we still get grief.

I took charge of figuring out how to make a readily available fuel pressure regulator work. I did the research, I bought the part at retail price, I designed the bracket, I had a prototype made, I bought the equipment to make the lines, I tested the product.

The first 10 that I sell will pay for the prototype. The second ten will pay for my time. At that point I have thousands of dollars invested with no profit on that investment. How great of a business model is that???

For the statement "Dyno shops are celebrating nationwide!". I gave the baseline specs in my first post above, and Drago restated them. No dyno costs involved. What more do you guys want????

I have nothing against you or anyone making a profit/living from SM. Anyone who knows me knows I worked many late nights on SM's in college to buy books and pay rent.

It just looks bad.

--------------------
Taylor Ferranti

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quote:
Originally posted by taylorf:
It just looks bad.

Lots of things look bad if you don't apply a single second of rational thought to them. The kits will be priced attractively enough to make people want to buy them. Don't want to pay for that embedded R&D cost? Don't buy it from Dave. Nothing in the rule will say you have to. Figure it out on your own. Dick around with fabbing the brackets, connections, etc. If you want Dave to figure it out then sell it at cost, you're using up perfectly good oxygen for no apparent reason.

The SMAC guys bust their asses to make this class better and forumorons get to kick them in the balls for free. Nice.

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quote:
Originally posted by Blake Clements:
quote:
Originally posted by cam:
This was proposed as an optional upgrade path, why does anyone want to limit the source of good used parts?

Agree with you on that Charles. Also cuts down on unnecessary expenses for those with both cars needing interchangeable parts.
I'd like to know the reasoning behind not allowing the update.

Very disappointing news indeed!

--------------------
If you can't fix it with a hammer, it's got electrical problems.

davew Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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quote:
Originally posted by Adroitracer:
Thank you Dave and Drago for all that you do for the community.

Don't forget Mike Collins, Dave Mcnanny and Sam Henry

And Tom Fowler at Advanced Autosports South

--------------------
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"It just looks bad."

No, it doesn't!

Mike LL
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quote:
Originally posted by Steve D.:
quote:
Originally posted by taylorf:
It just looks bad.

Lots of things look bad if you don't apply a single second of rational thought to them. The kits will be priced attractively enough to make people want to buy them. Don't want to pay for that embedded R&D cost? Don't buy it from Dave. Nothing in the rule will say you have to. Figure it out on your own. Dick around with fabbing the brackets, connections, etc. If you want Dave to figure it out then sell it at cost, you're using up perfectly good oxygen for no apparent reason.

The SMAC guys bust their asses to make this class better and forumorons get to kick them in the balls for free. Nice.

+1 [thumbsup]
Liberalism is brutal and everywhere

--------------------
Mike Lliteras
Sponsor, Mechanic, Owner and Dad
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KG
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This is incredible. I get to put my car (1990) to bed for the winter and roll it out in the spring without having to update anything. Finally someone gets it.


Kurtis

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quote:
Originally posted by taylorf:


It just looks bad.

Just bad timing of your announcement, Dave. Thanks for prototyping one. I'll order this winter. Valuable tuning for all years. Thanks for your efforts.

John Mueller Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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quote:
Originally posted by Adroitracer:
Thank you Dave and Drago for all that you do for the community.

You got that right!!! Goes for all the members of SMAC too.

--------------------
Thanks,
John Mueller
NASA SM National Director
http://www.Weekend-Racer.com
#13 "Tiger Miata" - 2009 SoCal SSM Champion

Scott Malbon Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Thanks Jim. We appreciate the work of the SMAC and CRB, and unofficially DaveW. I am pleased with the decisions but would like to know the thinking of these groups. What can you share with us? (The comments I submitted suggested that SM succeeded because entry costs were low and performance and fun were high. We need to keep that. The 1.8s and 99s performance potential raises the question, do we shackle those with weight and PR and/or offer costly upgrades to the 1.6s. Or is it time for two classes?)

Thanks,

Scott

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quote:
Originally posted by Drago:
The BOD had their meeting this weekend in Topeka.

The BOD did not pass the update/backdate on the suspension. At this point, unless an overwhelming show of support for this change comes to the SMAC/CRB, the CRB/SMAC will likely not bring it back for approval to the BOD for 2012.

These rules went through normal SCCA processes and procedures and were voted on 10/16

Jim Drago
CRB

Thank you BoD for killing the Spec Miata OPTIONAL suspension update/backdate rule. [thumbsup]

--------------------
Have Fun [Wink]

David Dewhurst
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OK, so we all agree all the volunteers on the CRB and SMAC are doing an excellent job.
[thumbsup]

Back to the topic at hand;
1) can someone post the exact language of what was approved? meaning will these be a spec FPR & timing wheel or "open" timing and FPR? do as you please, across the board on all model years?
verbiage anyone??
2) and still concerned about those pesky "undetectable" ECU's, they ain't just gonna sit there following simple factory orders ?? they've been working hard pulling double duty for years now, hard to fathom the dyno will not write a new updated job description for them.
[scratchchin]

Brian Ghidinelli Verified Driver
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quote:
Originally posted by Jeff Lyon:
From my understanding, the open timing/fuel pressure primarily helps the 99+ cars, which were the HP kings to start with. Sounds like the powers that be want the masses to start moving to the NB's. [twocents]

Horsepower:
99s: 2450#/127hp = 19.29#/hp
1.8s: 2375#/125hp = 19.0#/hp
1.6s: 2285#/123hp = 18.58#/hp
~ 3.6% spread

Torque:
99s: 2450#/119ft-lbs = 20.59#/ft-lbs
1.8s: 2375#/114ft-lbs = 20.83#/ft-lbs
1.6s: 2285#/108ft-lbs = 21.16#/ft-lbs
~ 2.7% spread

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John Mueller Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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quote:
Originally posted by guest driver:

2) and still concerned about those pesky "undetectable" ECU's, they ain't just gonna sit there following simple factory orders ?? they've been working hard pulling double duty for years now, hard to fathom the dyno will not write a new updated job description for them.
[scratchchin]

My understanding is the 'undetectable ECU cheats' are made irrelevant with the open Timing & FP... Yes?

--------------------
Thanks,
John Mueller
NASA SM National Director
http://www.Weekend-Racer.com
#13 "Tiger Miata" - 2009 SoCal SSM Champion

Drago Verified Driver Made Donation to Website Series Champ
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quote:
Originally posted by John Mueller:
quote:
Originally posted by guest driver:

2) and still concerned about those pesky "undetectable" ECU's, they ain't just gonna sit there following simple factory orders ?? they've been working hard pulling double duty for years now, hard to fathom the dyno will not write a new updated job description for them.
[scratchchin]

My understanding is the 'undetectable ECU cheats' are made irrelevant with the open Timing & FP... Yes?
Right now yes, as they work the air:fuel curve flatter. The computers will probably have 1hp/1 ft lb advanntage at most.
My feeling is if people want to run them, the gain has been negated to almost nothing, so until they are swapped at the big races, that is all we have.
It would be pretty silly IMO to run computer for 1/1 gain when you can detect with OBD2 scanner? But I dont think they wil go away, but neither will ported heads etc.
Jim

--------------------
Jim Drago
East Street Auto Salvage
jdrago1@aol.com
2006-2007 Mid-West Division
07,09 June Sprints Champion

EAST STREET RACING

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quote:
Originally posted by John Mueller:
[/qb]

My understanding is the 'undetectable ECU cheats' are made irrelevant with the open Timing & FP... Yes? [/QB][/QUOTE]

?? verbiage on the new rule ??
then the dyno will have the last word??
78 shopping days left before we will see.

 
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