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Author Topic: Interesting data from VIR for the 1.6 vs. 99 debate
Danny Steyn Verified Driver
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This weekend we ran a double ECR and SARRC event at VIR. Three 5th gear straights, lots of elevation changes. Generally accepted to favor ‘99s

In ECR1 Qualifying

  • Derek Whitis 99 2:20.218
  • Tom Fowler (Bogart’s 1.6) 2:20.521
  • DannySteyn 99 2:20.773


In SARRC Qualifying
  • Derek Whitis 99 2:20.429
  • Tom Fowler (OPM Rental 1.6) 2:20.457
  • Danny Steyn 99 2:20.713


Tom didn’t run the 2nd ECR

ECR Race 1
Derek stayed in the lead for 3 laps with Tom (in Bogart’s 1.6) and I on his heels. Derek pitted very early as he was being held up by an SRF. Tom took over and pulled out a 4 second lead on me, but lost the lead when a Jetta spun in front of him. Bogart shared the car with Tom. I came out of my 5 min pit stop directly on Derek’s tail, but his engine grenade that lap.

Podium

• Steyn OPM
• Brock OPM
• Manny De Silva Rossini Racing

SARRC R1
After a TOTAL F’NG DISASTER of a start (totally avoidable) Tom and I had a great ding dong at the front. He was faster in some sections and I was faster in others. At the end I had him by 3/10ths of a second! Peterson spun on the last lap while in 2nd.

I got FRL by 13/1000ths from Tom in his DOP 1.6!

Will discuss start in a separate thread.

Podium

• Steyn OPM
• Fowler OPM
• Brock OPM

ECR2
I was unchallenged in this one as neither Tom nor Derek were competing.

Podium
• Steyn OPM
• Peterson OPM
• Hartberger OPM

General observations
Simply put, Fowler can drive. The 1.6 is VERY competitive at VIR and can win. It was way faster than my 99 in certain sections, but in others the 99 had the advantage. The data corroborated what we saw on the track. It’s also possible that Fowler was holding back so that he didn’t kick his paying customer’s ass – only he really knows the truth!

Neither Fowler’s rental 1.6 nor Bogart’s 1.6 have anything close to the program of prep that my car has. Yes they are strong cars as Tom proved, but I suspect that if the demand and budget was there to do the necessary prep, the results may have been VERY different.

Can I win in a 1.6? NO – I cannot make the weight and I make mistakes. Tom is a seasoned driver and seldom makes mistakes.

Just thought you would all like some straight up comparisons.


And in closing, congrats to Tom at OPM for super result at VIR, and for getting my car in shape after the Runoffs incident. Thanks to Mike Rossini for a great engine, and to Traqmate for the data that is my best friend and lie detector.

But the best thing is that the VIR weekend was just a total blast. The total SM community is such a great bunch of guys, the fun under tent never stopped, parts and data were being shared across teams, and there was a TOTAL absence of the "Man Drama" - Regional racing at its best. (except for the SM/SRF Start) - will post on that later.

[ 10-25-2010, 12:46 PM: Message edited by: Danny Steyn ]

--------------------
Danny
http://www.dannysteyn.com
http://www.adeptstudios.com
OPM Autosports | Traqmate | Rossini Racing Engines
2010 June Sprints Champ, 2010 ARRC SMX Champ
2009 SARRC Champ, 2009 SEDiv ECR Champ, 2009 FES Champ
2008 SEDiv ECR Champ

Danny Steyn Verified Driver
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PS
Congrats to John Peterson and OPM on the win in the CCPS over Dan Tiley and Stephen Figura .... Way to go guys!!!!

--------------------
Danny
http://www.dannysteyn.com
http://www.adeptstudios.com
OPM Autosports | Traqmate | Rossini Racing Engines
2010 June Sprints Champ, 2010 ARRC SMX Champ
2009 SARRC Champ, 2009 SEDiv ECR Champ, 2009 FES Champ
2008 SEDiv ECR Champ

Alex Bolanos Verified Driver Series Champ
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Not surprised by your findings, that's what us Florida boys are trying to explain to everyone. I am, however, extremely jealous that I couldn't make it!

Weekend Warrior Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Confucius say: Fowler in 1.6 vs. anybody in 99 is hard comparison unless student has become teacher

--------------------
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Nine out of ten 99 owners agree that the 1.6 and 99's are even matched. [rolling on floor laughin]

We know the cars are close. But even a doggish SSM car can hang in the draft of a 99 and keep pace.

Pete Maerz

soupy
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I am also very disappointed I couldn't make it.

--------------------
Charlie Campbell
Race Engineering
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quote:
Originally posted by Danny Steyn:
This weekend we ran a double ECR and SARRC event at VIR. Three 5th gear straights, lots of elevation changes. Generally accepted to favor ‘99s

In ECR1 Qualifying

  • Derek Whitis 99 2:20.218
  • Tom Fowler (Bogart’s 1.6) 2:20.521
  • DannySteyn 99 2:20.773



In SARRC Qualifying
  • Derek Whitis 99 2:20.429
  • Tom Fowler (OPM Rental 1.6) 2:20.457
  • Danny Steyn 99 2:20.713


Tom didn’t run the 2nd ECR

ECR Race 1
Derek stayed in the lead for 3 laps with Tom (in Bogart’s 1.6) and I on his heels. Derek pitted very early as he was being held up by an SRF. Tom took over and pulled out a 4 second lead on me, but lost the lead when a Jetta spun in front of him. Bogart shared the car with Tom. I came out of my 5 min pit stop directly on Derek’s tail, but his engine grenade that lap.

Podium

• Steyn OPM
• Brock OPM
• Manny De Silva Rossini Racing

SARRC R1
After a TOTAL F’NG DISASTER of a start (totally avoidable) Tom and I had a great ding dong at the front. He was faster in some sections and I was faster in others. At the end I had him by 3/10ths of a second! Peterson spun on the last lap while in 2nd.

I got FRL by 13/1000ths from Tom in his DOP 1.6!

Will discuss start in a separate thread.

Podium

• Steyn OPM
• Fowler OPM
• Brock OPM

ECR2
I was unchallenged in this one as neither Tom nor Derek were competing.

Podium
• Steyn OPM
• Peterson OPM
• Hartberger OPM

General observations
Simply put, Fowler can drive. The 1.6 is VERY competitive at VIR and can win. It was way faster than my 99 in certain sections, but in others the 99 had the advantage. The data corroborated what we saw on the track. It’s also possible that Fowler was holding back so that he didn’t kick his paying customer’s ass – only he really knows the truth!

Neither Fowler’s rental 1.6 nor Bogart’s 1.6 have anything close to the program of prep that my car has. Yes they are strong cars as Tom proved, but I suspect that if the demand and budget was there to do the necessary prep, the results may have been VERY different.

Can I win in a 1.6? NO – I cannot make the weight and I make mistakes. Tom is a seasoned driver and seldom makes mistakes.

Just thought you would all like some straight up comparisons.


And in closing, congrats to Tom at OPM for super result at VIR, and for getting my car in shape after the Runoffs incident. Thanks to Mike Rossini for a great engine, and to Traqmate for the data that is my best friend and lie detector.

But the best thing is that the VIR weekend was just a total blast. The total SM community is such a great bunch of guys, the fun under tent never stopped, parts and data were being shared across teams, and there was a TOTAL absence of the "Man Drama" - Regional racing at its best. (except for the SM/SRF Start) - will post on that later.

Here we go! More of the same results that we have seen at Barber, Sebring long and short, PBIR, Homestead, Daytona, Savanna, CMP, etc yet people say there is no parity. Once again for those that are not following along; the 1.6 can and do win Spec Miata races even when National level cars and drivers show up. I know when I look at the entry list I look at the drivers names and not what kind of cars they are driving thats for sure.
And yes, Tom can wheel a 1.6 just as many others can and do.

--------------------
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Rich Verified Driver
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Denny Stein - I'm no Fowler, but my heap of a 1.6 compared to some pretty nicely-done '99's was also close. Maybe we have it all wrong, 1.6's are fastest when neglected?

--------------------
Rich Wiese

Spec Wrecker Ford

B(Kuch) Kucera 45 Verified Driver
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I said it once before and this will be the last time I say it,yes they are close just not at RA! [Roll Eyes]

--------------------
Bob
!KUCH!

"All my drinking buddies have a racing problem"

Brockodile
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First, congrats to Danny for three races, three wins. Clearly, no coincidence. Second, congrats to Tom Fowler for wheeling his poor, disrespected 1.6 to second place in the SARRC, just milliseconds off fastest race lap. For my part, it was a big thrill to stand on the podium with The Legendary Tom Fowler. Oh, you, too, Danny. Special kudos to John Peterson, the only driver under the OPM tent known to be older that I, for winning the VIR CCPS and to Dan Tiley for winning the CCPS overall. Now...

The parity issue has been flogged for years, but I can't resist taking another swipe myself. Disclaimer: The following opinions are based strictly upon subjective impressions from personal racing experience and are supported by no objective data whatsoever.

Since my first race, almost exactly three years ago, I have driven nothing but OPM rental cars. As a rental customer, I have had my choice of models: lots of seat time in the 1.6, the '99 and the overlooked '02.

Observations: It's so close, it's simply a personal decision. I like the quick reflexes of the 1.6. If I could make weight (at 200 lbs, I can't get within 50 lbs of the current minimum), I'd drive it at most tracks. As between the 99 and the 02, it's hard to say. I'm 6'5" tall and have modified Tom's 1.6 and '02 to fit me. Not so the 99. I'm quicker in the 02, but it could be due to better ergonomics. As far as power goes, Tom's 99's and his '02 all have RE motors and, certainly, none are DOP. In current trim, I can't tell the difference. Based on the way the '01+ model is dissed on this forum, this speaks well of Mr. Thornton's development efforts. But, for the guy who weighs 165 or less, the 1.6 just could be the ticket. I can't say, never having driven it at the current weight minimum. Of course, unless you are a pretty darn good driver, can afford a pro motor (and, preferably, significant dyno time), AND are really good at setup, or know someone who is, disregard all of the above, forget about running at the pointy end, and simply enjoy racing with the guys around you. Each of us has his own mountain to climb, and, with its numbers, SM provides the opportunity for close racing from front to back.

Let's keep it together.

--------------------
Skip Brock
OPM Rental, RE Engine

Seems like everywhere I go,
The more I see,
The less I know.

"Say Hey", by Michael Franti

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200 lbs and Tom can't get you down to legal weight? Is he storing his old food and drink in the trunk? Junk in the trunk?

--------------------
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MazdaSteve Verified Driver
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Danny, thanks for the props.

I have to agree with Skip - I think the cars are fairly close now as well. During the CCPS race, Dan and I had a great battle for P2 for the entire 45 minute race.

Biggest problem I see is making competition adjustsments by dropping the minimum weight on the 1.6 even further to 2,275. At 205 pounds, a Torsen, fire bottle system and gallon of gas, I scale at 2314. I believe the cars performance would be more responsive if I could get there, but I see no way to do it legally unless I drop 40 lbs.

I am sure that I am not the only 1.6 owner in this situation. If nothing else, the minimum weight issue itself makes our cars somewhat obsolete.

To prolong the longevity of the 1.6, why not consider ADDING 50 lbs to all classes? Has anyone done any testing on this scenario?

--------------------
Seneca Motorsports
Sponsored by Race Engineering
"American by birth, CONSERVATIVE by the grace of GOD"!

Zauskycop Verified Driver
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quote:
Originally posted by MazdaSteve:


Biggest problem I see is making competition adjustsments by dropping the minimum weight on the 1.6 even further to 2,275. At 205 pounds, a Torsen, fire bottle system and gallon of gas, I scale at 2314. I believe the cars performance would be more responsive if I could get there, but I see no way to do it legally unless I drop 40 lbs.

I am sure that I am not the only 1.6 owner in this situation. If nothing else, the minimum weight issue itself makes our cars somewhat obsolete.

To prolong the longevity of the 1.6, why not consider ADDING 50 lbs to all classes? Has anyone done any testing on this scenario?

+1

--------------------
Tracy Ramsey
Team Blenderblaster

d mathias Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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quote:
I am sure that I am not the only 1.6 owner in this situation. If nothing else, the minimum weight issue itself makes our cars somewhat obsolete.
[yep]

Glenn Verified Driver
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quote:
To prolong the longevity of the 1.6, why not consider ADDING 50 lbs to all classes? Has anyone done any testing on this scenario
[Eek!] Steve I have 99's now with close to #200 bolted to the floow to make weight! At this rate we will ahve to put a passenger seat back into the car and run a codriver. [burst]

--------------------
Glenn
Crew chief Meathead Racing, NE Region Sales Division Race Engineering, The GOLD standard in SM engines, Occasional race slave for OPM Autosports

MazdaSteve Verified Driver
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*Double Post*

--------------------
Seneca Motorsports
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MazdaSteve Verified Driver
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Glen I understand that.

But if the competition adjustments can not be met by a large percentage of the class when weights are dropped, we are not starting with a level platform.

How many 94+ cars can't get to minimum weight now?

Nobody purposely wants to ADD weight to their car. For the young guns who can't gain weight if they tried, this is a non issue. But for the rest of us 40+ crowd that make up the majority of the drivers, I see this as problematic.

--------------------
Seneca Motorsports
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Glenn Verified Driver
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Steve I get it, just saying that 200 plus pounds bolted to the tin floors of these cars is a recipe for disaster. WE use the factory seat mounts but how many out there just bolt weight to the floor IAW the GCR?

GREAT to see you last weekend, I miss racing/working with my SE brethren.

--------------------
Glenn
Crew chief Meathead Racing, NE Region Sales Division Race Engineering, The GOLD standard in SM engines, Occasional race slave for OPM Autosports

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Once again I bring this up. How much weight could be lost if you let the 1.6 cars strip off their undercoating/noise insulation/etc. Heck, let ALL cars do it. I doubt many 1.8's would want to, given that they need that weight anyway. So, if all cars could do it, and it wouldn't be an issue to tech...???

--------------------
Tracy Ramsey
Team Blenderblaster

Rich Verified Driver
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A 200lb driver would have easily made weight at 2275 in both my 1.6's [Confused]

Both my cars had 40+lbs of ballast and I weighed 185 with my gear on

--------------------
Rich Wiese

Spec Wrecker Ford

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Originally posted by MazdaSteve:


Biggest problem I see is making competition adjustsments by dropping the minimum weight on the 1.6 even further to 2,275. At 205 pounds, a Torsen, fire bottle system and gallon of gas, I scale at 2314. I believe the cars performance would be more responsive if I could get there, but I see no way to do it legally unless I drop 40 lbs.

I am sure that I am not the only 1.6 owner in this situation. If nothing else, the minimum weight issue itself makes our cars somewhat obsolete.

To prolong the longevity of the 1.6, why not consider ADDING 50 lbs to all classes? Has anyone done any testing on this scenario?


I am with you 1000 pecent. I have exactly the same weight issue as you. I weigh 194 and the lowest I have weighed in is 2320.

--------------------
Phil
Silver 38 SM/ITA

Nsparks Verified Driver
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I have had the pleasure of racing both a 1.6 and a 99. They made the same power to within 1.3hp. (Went back to double check and was mistaken) Torque was of course different with the 99 winning easily.
Comparing lap times between the two are very close. Within a second or less. Track conditions being a distinct variable yes but, I believe the parity between the two cars is extremely close.

Also, I assume one of the three straights is the top of the esses. I've tried using fith there in the 99 but I lose speed towards the top. When I stay in 4th I can keep the speed and don't hit the rev limiter even tho it's really close. When I was there in July Derick and I did 2.19's so I would like to think im not slouching through there.

[ 10-28-2010, 03:59 PM: Message edited by: Nsparks ]

--------------------
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quote:
Originally posted by Nsparks:
I have had the pleasure of racing both a 1.6 and a 99. They made the same power to within .3 of a horsepower. Torque was of course different with the 99 winning easily.
Comparing lap times between the two are very close. Within a second or less. Track conditions being a distinct variable yes but, I believe the parity between the two cars is extremely close.

Also, I assume one of the three straights is the top of the esses. I've tried using fith there in the 99 but I lose speed towards the top. When I stay in 4th I can keep the speed and don't hit the rev limiter even tho it's really close. When I was there in July Derick and I did 2.19's so I would like to think im not slouching through there.

The 99 you ran at Barber had as much power as any 99 in that field or more. If you got a 1.6 to anywhere near those numbers, it is a winner at any track.
Jim

--------------------
Jim Drago
East Street Auto Salvage
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EAST STREET RACING

Danny Steyn Verified Driver
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Yup Nates car was wicked strong at Barber, and 2:19's at VIR this past weekend would probably have kicked my but

re VIR uphill esses - a good run out of T5 and you need 5th gear otherwise you bang the rev limiter all the way up. I can only get 105MPH in 4th in '99, but up the esses but I can get 108mph in 5th on a good run, in a draft. On a good run Fowler was cresting the esses at over 111mph in his 1.6 in my draft.

--------------------
Danny
http://www.dannysteyn.com
http://www.adeptstudios.com
OPM Autosports | Traqmate | Rossini Racing Engines
2010 June Sprints Champ, 2010 ARRC SMX Champ
2009 SARRC Champ, 2009 SEDiv ECR Champ, 2009 FES Champ
2008 SEDiv ECR Champ

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Yes, my motor is very strong. Should be even stronger now according to Race Engineering! [thumbsup] I went back and looked at my Traqmate data and i'm sitting right at 104-105mph all the way up the hill and the rpm's were 69xx. So I guess I'm cutting it close. I'm not banging the limiter or even touching it. (Because If I did Bob might take his engine back) When I was shifting to fifth the RPM's dropped to 54xx and I was losing 1-2 mph by the top of the hill. Sounds like I need to get a better run out of T5 and maybe I'm scrubbing to much speed through the esses. [help]
The 1.6 dyno'd 120 on a dynojet here in mobile and the 99 dyno'd 122 on Rossini's Dyno that weekend at VIR because NASA made it a part of tech.

--------------------
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I haven't recently heard anyone dipsute that the cars are very close at a lot of tracks. So I politely ask, doth thou protest too much?

Oh that's right, the SMAC is pondering competition adjustments. Please carry on [Smile]

+1 on my two 1.6s that would easily make weight with a 200 lb driver.

-b

--------------------
Bruce Wilson
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MazdaSteve Verified Driver
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How are your cars so light? Cage construction? Diff? Seat?

I have no idea where I can take 40 lbs of this car and still remain compliant with the rules.

Any guidance would be appreciated.

--------------------
Seneca Motorsports
Sponsored by Race Engineering
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Rich Verified Driver
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With the torsen, my '93 needed 35lbs of ballast to make weight with about 2 gallons of gas left at 2285 with my 185lbs of dead weight behind the wheel. Obviously with the clutch diff it was lighter.

The cage had a nice beefy NASCAR driver's side bar, still had the window and windup on the passenger side with just an "x" there, so probably a wash weight-wise between that and a gutted door with NASCAR bars on the passenger side. The top was a nice heavy OEM one with no defroster. It had titanium fasteners in a few places on the suspension but that probably only saved about 2-3lbs. I didn't build this one but it had a much nicer cage than my '90. Both cars had the crash beams in the doors.

I don't know what to make of it, it really seems random?

--------------------
Rich Wiese

Spec Wrecker Ford

-Bob-
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I spent a winter working on my 90 to legally lighten the thing and I'm wondering why all the problems.

When I was at 247# I'm 2892# when the fuel is drained.

With torson and the stock seat mounts still in place. No bottle, no cool shirt.

Maybe the talk about some 90s being lighter than others is what I have?

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oops...2292#

MPR22
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92, 2282 empty, 227,Torsen,Bottle. I think there is quite of bit of dieting some of these over weight 1.6's can do over the winter.

--------------------
Michael Ross

iambhooper
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whats the weight of the MC diff vs torsen? my 91 weighed in at 2269 w mein the seat, qtr tank, before bolting in 25 lbs of ballast.

hoop

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hoop
'91 Spec Miata
'90 NA Beater/Track Day car
'06 RSX Type S

B Wilson Verified Driver Series Champ
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Miatacage cage, Doors, insulation behind the dash, Tow hooks, grease, dirt, rocks. Really nothing too special.

-bw

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Bruce Wilson
2010 Oregon Region Champ
2010 Monte Shelton Driver of the Year
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W. Bonsell
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Early this year I weighed 218 without gear. I ran a '91 with a viscous and door panels and glass and scaled at 2297...I am not 218 anymore, so have a little work to do this winter....have a torsen going in so don't know what that does to weight over the viscous coming out.....but seems 2275 is pretty easy to get down to.....

Bill

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William Bonsell
SCCA/ICSCC #26
SM/ITA

Rich Verified Driver
Oh, that's where that is.

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+15lbs is what I observed with the Torsen.

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Rich Wiese

Spec Wrecker Ford

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quote:
Originally posted by Rich:
+15lbs is what I observed with the Torsen.

is that 15lbs heavier than the MC? also, does anyone know what the gearing on the Mazdacomp diff's are/were? (yes, my car came w the MC diff when I purchased it)

hoop

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hoop
'91 Spec Miata
'90 NA Beater/Track Day car
'06 RSX Type S

Rich Verified Driver
Oh, that's where that is.

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Can't think of a scenario where a mazdacomp wouldn't have the 4.3 if it's using a miata ring gear, since it should only fit the 1.6 ring gear. And yes 15 pounds is the difference I observed on my scales when going from the MC to the Torsen, YMMV.

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Rich Wiese

Spec Wrecker Ford

   

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