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Author Topic: My video, 2010 Round 1
dp35 Verified Driver
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Here's my in car video from Saturday's race.

I'd rather be posting video from Sunday's race, because it had a happier ending. But my camera decided I didn't need to record beyond the 1st lap of that one.

I had to cut out a couple laps in the middle of the race, and the last 1/2 lap, to make the file size small enough to upload.

Special thanks to Dave Vodden for telling the SCCA that he did not think the lapper contact was my fault. Otherwise, they were going to ignore everything I had to say and dock me 2 positions. I still got a "reprimand", which IMO sucks. I'm all ears for other opinions about that. And yes, the same car took me off the track again a lap later.

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Next time maybe give him a little bump in the rear before you pass him, just so he knows you are there.

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LOL - What did you do to him before the race?

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LOL - What did you do to him after the race ?

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Who the hell is in that white car!!?

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First one I would give him, but the second one was total BS (unless he was so fixated on the red car he missed you in his mirrors). I can't believe how fast you guys caught lapped traffic.

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Was the reprimand for the white car, or the red car at the end? It looked like you drifted pretty far track right with the red car beside you at the end.

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Glenn Davis

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quote:
Originally posted by G. Davis:
Was the reprimand for the white car, or the red car at the end? It looked like you drifted pretty far track right with the red car beside you at the end.

It was for the first incident with the white car.

There was no contact with the red car. I only used up the whole track after he went into the dirt. Was that wrong?

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Looks like the driver of the white car was not listening to his instructors in school when they stressed staying on the racing line. Both times he diverted from the racing line when you attempted to pass. Seems that most of the other novices you passed did well.

Dennis

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I guess I'm perplexed as to why the stewards would think the incident was your doing unless this was a NASA race where the rule is a little differnt than SCCA. Having run SCCA schools for a couple years now, I notice a common problem is that novices take a long time to learn how to alter their line in w2w racing scenarios. This guy was shown a blue flag, so he either didn't see it or decided he needed to use the whole track, which is generally not the fast line through there.

Same with the second incident, if this were NASA, you would have definitely been in the wrong there too. But in SCCA we are allowed racing room and drivers can't just move over into you no matter where you are in relation to their car. Our stewards in Oregon seem to finally all agree on this point. If you are one inch overlapped the other car must respect your racing room and not turn in or down on you.

-bw

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Bruce Wilson
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I'll add that the first incident might be considered a low probablility pass unless you're sure the other guy knows you're there. Having passed many cars there in enduros, I usually wait just to be sure, but there's a lot less urgency in endurance races [Smile]

-bw

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Great driving Darin! Too bad a lapper took away your win in the first race.

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Great drive Darin! An unfortunate "racing" incident! But I think the video clearly vindicates you...and your wheel mark on his door! If I had to guess he never saw you but probably saw Vodden going to his right as you were already on his left and started to give room for him...and collected you. The 2nd incident with him is a real head scratcher??

But I will say this having been at the SCCA driving school this year(as an observer and crew)...They split all the closed wheel cars into 2 groups of 17 which in my opinion didn't allow for a lot of driving in traffic. It seemed once people settled into a pace there was very little close racing and not nearly the experience of needing to check mirrors...especially for the faster cars...which this car was from what I understand. We were in the other group. Had they run all 35 cars together at school this would have been a lot more valuable in my opinion.

To bad your video of the 2nd race didn't turn out...that was a great battle in some rough elements. I would have loved to see Vodden 4 wheel up the hill and back down from 8 to 9 never lifting it seemed. Way to hold on after taking the long route from 14 to 15 and a little bumping down the front straight. I think Vodden had the wet weather skills dialed but you got the benefit of the bobble this time...great drive and WIN!

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-RA


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quote:
Originally posted by dp35:
quote:
Originally posted by G. Davis:
Was the reprimand for the white car, or the red car at the end? It looked like you drifted pretty far track right with the red car beside you at the end.

It was for the first incident with the white car.

There was no contact with the red car. I only used up the whole track after he went into the dirt. Was that wrong?

Couldn't tell that from the video. No idea why a reprimand unless they are saying to not even create a situation where contact could occur. But then, that's pretty much what racing is...

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The guys "No passing on the left" sign must of fallen down. [Big Grin]
J~

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Great driving Darin! Congrats on your pole in the first race and the win in the second.

Did the stewards look at your video or rely on what was told them by the corner worker? There are only 2 scenarios here: either he didn't see you or he was trying to run you off, both times. I've heard it said - Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity. I'm not saying the other driver was stupid, just unaware. I am baffled as to why the stewards felt it necessary to reprimand.

Great meeting you and hope to see you at future races.

Steve

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quote:
Originally posted by Steve Holifield:
There are only 2 scenarios here: either he didn't see you or he was trying to run you off, both times. Steve

I can say for sure he was not attempting to block or run Darin off. I found out who it was, I met him last weekend. He is a Nice guy. He had mentioned he caused to leader to run off track but I did not hear the explanation. I would say that it was situational awareness as the cause for the incidents.

Dennis

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quote:
Originally posted by Steve Holifield:
Great driving Darin! Congrats on your pole in the first race and the win in the second.

Did the stewards look at your video or rely on what was told them by the corner worker? There are only 2 scenarios here: either he didn't see you or he was trying to run you off, both times. I've heard it said - Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity. I'm not saying the other driver was stupid, just unaware. I am baffled as to why the stewards felt it necessary to reprimand.

Thanks Steve.

No, the stewards did not see this video. I was in such shock at being blamed, I forgot to mention it.

Dennis is right, the other driver seems like a nice guy and I have no reason to believe these were anything more than honest mistakes. On Sunday I held my breathe and lapped him cleanly. After Saturday's race, he approached me, apologized, and accepted the blame. However, according to the race steward, his written statement (which I didn't get to read) stated the opposite and blamed me, which was the beginning of my problems.

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dudes' wrong, plain and simple. If his written statement is different than what he told Darrin, then I personally don't want him on the track. Nothing worse than a two face. If that is true, of course. Darrin did no wrong, the second time it looked very suspicious that it was on purpose. And If it was not, he needs an eye exam. I'm so f--in sick of the "I didn't see you" BS.. If you lack that kind of situational awareness, stay doing track days or get more instruction before you come out and wreck someone.

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Just think, if Dan feels that way, imagine how Darin feels. It's not easy winning in SM and having somone screw it up like that, when he had the race in the bag, would be pretty tough to take!!!

-bw

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First of all, Great Driving Darin! You were the man to beat! Welcome to getting thru traffic...many less experienced driver's are either a little overwhelmed or in need of more coaching.

The Stewards seemed a bit much but now you know to bring that camera w/ you, don't you.

Simply learn from other people's mistakes and keep up the good work. See you @ Laguna.

Tommy O

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Video (both fwd and rear or fwd with rear mirror action) is the best insurance policy you can have. It has saved my bacon before.

Didn't help with the time I was incorrectly black flagged at Laguna while running 3rd though. [Frown]

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What we need here is better behavior modification. Hand out free beer tokens to everyone who laps Thill slower than 2:15. If they mess up while being lapped, you take the tokens away. People pay more attention when they stand to lose something desirable they already posses, than to the threat of a punishment.

But then some of us would throw qualifying for free beer tokens [Smile]

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Paul, we really missed you last weekend [Frown] [Frown]

Next race?

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Trust me, it pained me to miss the opener.

Already signed up for Laguna at the end of the month...and I'm not giving YOU any beer tokens!

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quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Dan:
dudes' wrong, plain and simple. If his written statement is different than what he told Darrin, then I personally don't want him on the track. Nothing worse than a two face. If that is true, of course. Darrin did no wrong, the second time it looked very suspicious that it was on purpose. And If it was not, he needs an eye exam. I'm so f--in sick of the "I didn't see you" BS.. If you lack that kind of situational awareness, stay doing track days or get more instruction before you come out and wreck someone.

Didn't see the film, but my take is that newer drivers are easily confused as to what happened. last year a driver dive bombed me (took me out) and claimed I'd come down on him. When he watched the video, he realized his error. We've all been there.
Rick

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I agree the first time he knocked darrin off. but the second was on a straight. I don't care how new you are that is unacceptable.

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Posted elsewhere, but I'll respond here.

quote:
Originally posted by rhart:
Hi Darin

Hmmm
Whatever happened to the notion that it is up to the overtaker to pass the slower car safely?? Off the track twice in 15 min???Doesn't sound like sensible driving...corner workers agreed by the way.

Rick, I'll leave it to the court of public opinion to determine who was right & wrong on the two incidents where I tried to lap you and ended up off the track. I was off the track in 2 consecutive laps, both times when I attempted to lap you, and at no other time during either race.

I'd prefer to make a friend rather than an enemy, which is why I haven't referred to you by name or car number up to this point. Also, since this was apparently your first ever race, I didnít want to damage your confidence or reputation. I hope we can avoid letting any more keyboard courage spoil an important conversation. I told you in our face to face conversation that you needed to hold your line and be predictable, and Iíll stick to that. After watching the video, Iíd add that you need to pay closer attention to the flags and your mirrors.

I accepted your apologies right after the race and the next day. Since you took responsibility and said that you didn't see me, I wasn't mad at you. According to your statement to the race official and your comments here, your apology was not sincere, and you don't think you did anything wrong. Feel free to ignore my biased opinions, but youíd be smart to listen to the advice of the more experienced racers on this forum.

Starting at 16:13 of my video, you can see blue flags shown to you. They start before Turn 1, past 4 flag stations, until my first failed attempt at passing you in Turn 5. The car you were racing with saw the flags and pointed me by before Turn 3. You apparently didn't see the 4 blue flags. What if those had been yellow or red flags? This is more serious than my first potential victory being taken away.

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WOW!! I'd like to know what corner workers felt Darin was passing unsafely?? I believe the term is "racing room"??? Not only were these safe places to pass but Darin already was there when he was forced off the track...TO AVOID CONTACT...had Rick been paying attention Darin would have driven on by with a thank you wave!

Unfortunetly for Rick there are 2 more videos that show him doing the same thing to 2 other cars. He drives into the 49 car going down the back straight...and I will bet the tire donut on Ricks car door is from this and not the first incident with Darin...because a lot of smoke comes out with this contact. 30 seconds later on another video Rick is being passed at the entry to 2 when it again looks like he does not see the car to his left and turns in...not sure if there was contact but he forces NV Racer to evade him.

A point for Rick to consider is this...you come out of school with only one real goal and that is "do others feel comfortable racing door to door with you?" He needs to ask himself this and make a decision if he can do better or not. The fact that Dave Vodden felt the first incident was not Darin's fault should clue Rick in...this is not just another driver. Let go of the corner workers Rick...and like Darin said, make friends not enemies. Own up and move on...way more respect is gained this way.

In full disclosure, I'm not a driver but crew!

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-RA


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From what I can see in the video, in both cases, the overtaking driver could have helped himself out immensely by setting up his pass.

The first one, it seems like you were feeling the pressure from the white car behind you that caught you, and tried to force a low probabability, high risk pass. Just lifting slightly, turning down inside of the lapped car, and powering by on his right would have been the much better option. Plus, the car behind you would have had to follow you, and wouldn't have been able to get a run on you down the following straight. Chances are, he would have passed you anyways had you not gone off there, cause he was gonna get on the power much sooner and pass on the right.

The 2nd incident, I'm just gonna guess that the red car behind you showed up much better in his rearview mirror than you did in his driver side mirror. When I come up on lapped cars, I'll put myself in their mirrors so I KNOW they can't help but see me, then make my move around them.

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8 seconds off the leaders per lap? Use those mirrors!

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my first race was at lime rock, ct. I was getting lapped by ken payson when i didn't see him and came down on him in a corner. I didn't have enough of an awareness of the people around me - and coming up behind me. With that said, after that contact i NEVER made that mistake again. After the race, Ken and i talked, and i apologized for my negligence.

done.

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If you are being lapped by several cars battling for the lead....and, you are shown the blue flag corner after corner....and, you put the leader off the track.....and, you put him off again on the next lap....and corner workers often do not know what is really happening on the racing surface.....and, it is your first racing season.....you might just let the after race apology stand.
And, next time, watch your mirrors and point the leaders by.

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I give him the benefit of doubt on the first incident. Should have waited just a little longer before making that pass. But the second one was just blatant running you off track. You've got to know the situtation on track, if your that far off the leaders pace, you know with in a few seconds when the leaders are going to be coming up behind you. Get the hell out of their way!

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Shit happens, especially with rookies. The worst part was his quoting the corner workers, rather than listening to the other racers. Like I said, above, he should have let the post race apology ride, and all would have been forgiven.
wheel

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^100% agree. We usually discuss racing room, etc between 2 drivers of the same caliber, but a lapper has nothing to argue. You either see the flag and do everything you can to get out of the way, or you screw with the race results, which will get no sympathy in this forum. I know that stewards often take the corner worker's ability to assess a racing situation given their experience and judge accordingly, and that's exactly what happened in this situation. I'm just glad the steward made the correct decision!

-b

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Darin, glad to see you do so well last weekend! Those were both awesome drives. I can tell it's going to be a fun season to watch the front runners.

Here's my two bits: Without talking about who is at fault here (although that's always fun!) there are some good lessons here. While it would be great if all drivers were equally well experienced, that is seldom the case, especially at the beginning of the season. Most of us were rookies once, and made our share of misjudgments.

Bottom line is that we need to include the driver in our calculations. We need to drive with them according to their ability, or our inexact knowledge of their ability. Consider the rookie sticker a good warning. Better to drive assuming that the rookie is not using their mirrors, that they will check up in the worst places, and will turn down on you unless you are in plain sight well ahead of them (and even then...)

It's easy to say in retrospect, with the benefit of time to study the video, but I think in both cases, the outside line around T5a and the exit of T9 were riskier bets than the inside lines. In T9, the school line takes you all the way to the left of the track, exactly where the rookie went. In T5, the school line is mid track.

Better to drive to survive, and to minimize the times when you put your fate in the hands of another driver, especially a rookie. You drive Lemons, right?

To the rookie: you should really use your mirrors. You are sharing the road. Try to make it safe for all. Consider that faster cars may be racing with each other as they come by. You should be polite to allow them to get past you without affecting their positions. This awareness and courtesy will earn you respect as a level headed driver, and reduce the risk of damage. The corner workers weren't in the car with you and aren't racers. Study what better choices you could have made, and apply those lessons next time.

-Juan

--------------------
www.ArtOfRoadRacing.com Race Craft Clinic - Thunderhill - 30 Jan 2011

Johnny D Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Hey I got lapped in that race.
Someone wanted to go 2 wide with me in 8 but that's another story.
It's not great but there are upsides to it.
1) you're not loosing a position.
2) keep your speed, tuck in behind and you have a front row seat behind the fastest guy out there. Watch his line and breaking points.
He's leading for a reason.
J~

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faster than the average bear...

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My problem is with this perpetuated myth that Rick quotes as "it's up to the overtaker to pass the slower car safely."

It is absolutely wrong to say that the responsiblity rests only with ONE driver!!!

It is a shared responsibility, and a clean pass can only be accomplished with two drivers cooperating.

Juan, I get what you're saying, but what you're proposing isn't always practical. Darin tried to pass on the STRAIGHT and still got pushed off. If you can't trust to pass a another driver on the straight, then where?

Here's the SCCA rule, since we don't deal in "notions" here:
--------------------------------------------
Drivers must respect the right of other competitors to racing room. Abrupt changes in direction that impede or affect the path of another car attempting to overtake or pass may be interpreted as an effort to deprive a fellow competitor of the right to racing room.

The overtaking driver is responsible for the decision to pass another car and to accomplish it safely. The overtaken driver is responsible to be aware that he is being passed and not to impede or block the overtaking car. A driver who does not use his rear view mirror or who appears to be blocking another car attempting to pass may be black flagged and/or penalized, as specified in Section 7.
--------------------------------------------
The one thing I don't like about this rule is that it has a twinge of "intent" in it. I believe a driver is just as guilty of a "racing room" violation when that driver is simply unaware (which isn't acceptable in racing!!) of the other driver, not just when the driver "makes an effort" to deprive another driver of racing room.

I hope that Rick reads this and understands that he had shared accountability in both incidents and has shared responsibility EVERY TIME there is another car close to his to leave room and avoid contact.

Off my soap box now...

Dean

--------------------
NASA Nor Cal SM series Director
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B Wilson Verified Driver Series Champ
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quote:
Originally posted by Juan Pineda:
In T9, the school line takes you all the way to the left of the track, exactly where the rookie went. In T5, the school line is mid track.


Since this is not an uncommon error for novices, I started testing folks in our SCCA school starting a few years back. I talk about it the night before, and then I start poking my nose in the "racing line" when we do lead and follows. I highly commend drivers when they alter their line and strongly chastise them when they don't. It's a bit of a risk, but so far nobody's hit me. It is probably one of the most important things to teach in racing school, assuming by then the drivers already know the basics of driving. Better to learn in a controlled environment for sure.

-b

--------------------
Bruce Wilson
2010 Oregon Region Champ
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dtfastbear Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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The problem, Bruce, is that too many schools are teaching the whole "Just stay on line and the faster cars will find their way around you" BS. Which I think is a total cop-out and just plain wrong. It's also explicitly against the rules - staying online doesn't afford anyone racing room at the entrance, apex or exit if they're beside you. We need to teach shared responsibility to new drivers!

I think you're doing exactly the right thing by making new drivers understand that they should be predictable, but that they do have an obligation to alter their line if another driver puts his car beside them.

Cheers,

Dean

--------------------
NASA Nor Cal SM series Director
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Ken SM-94 Verified Driver
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Lapper was 100% at fault in both cases, nothing less. It cracks me up to hear people talk about "bad places to pass". It's a freakin race track, watch your mirrors and expect to be passed anywhere.

That lapper could have made both passes easy if he would have just looked in his mirrors.

Knowing how to be passed is absolutely mandatory.

Darrin, you have a lot of class.

Dan Cooper Verified Driver
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quote:


Darrin, you have a lot of class. [/QB]

I think that is an important comment. Your first SMT win was well within reach when this happened and it was taken away from you. You never lost your cool and came back the next day with a vengeance and settled it on track. We should all be taking notes.

--------------------
Dan
--
Green Miata #35
Integriteam/Integratis

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To be clear, I wasn't addressing fault. Go ahead and beat up on the rookie. I'm not trying to stop anyone.

However, being in the right won't restore Darin's position. What I find more useful is trying to understand how to better one's odds. It is not completely chance. Some drivers are better at this game others.

Getting run off at the exit of T9 is not an uncommon situation, especially with higher speed differentials.

-Juan

--------------------
www.ArtOfRoadRacing.com Race Craft Clinic - Thunderhill - 30 Jan 2011

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quote:
Originally posted by Ken SM-94:


Darrin, you have a lot of class.

Well said Ken...couldn't agree more!!

Thank you Dean for saying it like it is. There isn't a top 10(20 or 30 for that matter) driver on this forum that wouldn't have done the exact same thing Darin did...why? Because if he checks up to make sue the guy see's him he is in 2nd maybe 3rd in a blink! He has to assume the lapper has seen the blue flags and has checked his mirrors multiple times. Pretty black and white to me.

Good luck to all at LS...watch for flags and check your mirrors [Smile] ) Blue flags aren't displayed for the guy who's been behind you for 10 laps...let the leaders go by clean and enjoy the front row...at least for 20 seconds or so!

--------------------
-RA


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I think we need another party to get to know one another. (and our cars). I swear it works. plus I like parties. Rick will have to bring ALL the beers..

--------------------
Daniel Mairani DDS...still here, just faster.
http://www.DanielMairanidds.com

Jeremy H
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I thought I would hop in and give Darin a belated congrats on a great weekend.

I miss you all and I am having serious withdrawls reading the boards.

Hopefully I can swing a couple events later in the year [Smile]

Cheers,
Jeremy

--------------------
SFR SCCA
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2009 SFR SCCA SMT Champion

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quote:
Originally posted by dtfastbear:
The problem, Bruce, is that too many schools are teaching the whole "Just stay on line and the faster cars will find their way around you" BS. Which I think is a total cop-out and just plain wrong. It's also explicitly against the rules - staying online doesn't afford anyone racing room at the entrance, apex or exit if they're beside you. We need to teach shared responsibility to new drivers!


As a rookie that is exactly what I have been taught at the schools to the point that when I go off line to let fast cars pass its a bit un-nerving. The toughest time to do this is when someone is coming into a corner hot and you're not sure if the are going to tuck in under you or not. When in doubt I'll give up the apex but I'd much prefer giving a point by after the corner.

While as a rookie I'll certainly let faster traffic get by to the best of my ability (and the situation) I can tell you some faster drivers are a lot better at "presenting" themselves and it make is easier for me to let them pass. Some put themselves squarely in my mirror and it easier to know exactly where they are. Others aren't as easy to see.

--------------------
TJ Andriesen
Barrington, IL
#43 SM/ITA (SCCA & MC)

 
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