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Author Topic: My video, 2010 Round 1
B Wilson Verified Driver Series Champ
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quote:
Originally posted by TJAndriesen:
quote:
Originally posted by dtfastbear:
The problem, Bruce, is that too many schools are teaching the whole "Just stay on line and the faster cars will find their way around you" BS. Which I think is a total cop-out and just plain wrong. It's also explicitly against the rules - staying online doesn't afford anyone racing room at the entrance, apex or exit if they're beside you. We need to teach shared responsibility to new drivers!


As a rookie that is exactly what I have been taught at the schools to the point that when I go off line to let fast cars pass its a bit un-nerving. The toughest time to do this is when someone is coming into a corner hot and you're not sure if the are going to tuck in under you or not. When in doubt I'll give up the apex but I'd much prefer giving a point by after the corner.

While as a rookie I'll certainly let faster traffic get by to the best of my ability (and the situation) I can tell you some faster drivers are a lot better at "presenting" themselves and it make is easier for me to let them pass. Some put themselves squarely in my mirror and it easier to know exactly where they are. Others aren't as easy to see.

TJ,

I appreciate you bringing this up. Please let me know if I'm causing more confusion and I will try to explain.

The issue usually presents itself at corner exit and that is where I focus my training exercises. You should be able to alter your line at that point without being in danger of losing control. But even then it's fairly easy to alter your line in any part of the corner if you just enter a little slower than normal. That is what the lapping cars will be doing, as they will need to slightly alter their line as well.

Also, when you are getting lapped, lapping cars should not need to present themselves, you should know they are there. I understand there is a lot going on, but if you are ever surprised by leaders lapping you, then you're not paying enough attention to your mirrors, i.e. you should know who you've been racing with and when a car appears that is much faster than you and a different color/number than who you've been racing with, you should assume they are lapping you. It's all about situational awareness. If you don't see the blue flag, then how can you see the more important yellow or Red flags.

It is very important to note that we still need you to maintain a predictable line, just understand that you don't own any particular part of the track, especially when another car occupies that space.

I hope that helps to explain what we are talking about. Please don't hesitate to ask addtional questions, we are here to help.

-b

--------------------
Bruce Wilson
2010 Oregon Region Champ
2010 Monte Shelton Driver of the Year
2010 25 Hours of Thunderhill E3 and Under 2 liter Overall Champion
Oregon Region SM Class Advisor

rhart Verified Driver
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Post edited

[ 04-25-2010, 05:37 PM: Message edited by: rhart ]

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Reply to Darin et al.

This got pretty long so in case you fall asleep before reaching the end Iíll say that this is a public apology as a follow-up to my personal apology to Darin

First to those that are quick to assassinate without knowing the other side of the story, please consider that there is often another side or at least information that has be not yet aired. Maybe you have to get to be an old fart like me to gain this wisdom.

I just watched Darin's tape. Regarding the turn 5-6 incident, the tape unfortunately does not show the crucial "wave by". I had at least two fast cars closing on me and I waved one car by on my right since he had the line on the entry to 6, and I didn't want to cut him off. I then kept to the middle of the track since I knew there was another car close by tho I did not see Darin on my left I knew he was lurking and I wanted to be a non issue to faster drivers. Despite trying for the middle I guess I caused Darin to go off left. At that particular moment I don't know what else I could have done short of pulling off the track. I had even slowed up at that point to assist the faster drivers! Blue flag or not I never want to hold another driver up. Ever.

Regarding the turn 9, I again was trying to get the car by on the right and moved left. I must say that if I didn't know any other information I have to admit that it looks like I was trying to push him off left. Anyone who knows me will tell you that is NOT my style. I think even Darin will tell you that. My initial comment about the corner worker comment was playful sarcasm per that persons comment to me. It was not meant to be arrogant. I'm a rookie, this was my first race, and my only desire was to finish without hurting myself or my car or someone else or their equipment. Thatís all. I'm sure all the negative commenters and judgment passers were front of the field drivers in your first couple of races or at least never ever made an error. I'm just not lucky enough to be as good as you aspersion casters. Still, I am trying to learn and hopefully will be a better driver going forward.

The next day Sunday we raced in a downpour. I told Darin after the race that I was keeping an eye out for him so I could get him by safely that day. His response was that of a gentleman. If I truly was a careless and dangerous driver I doubt that I could have finished that race in a downpour. And by the way Darin did get by safely and finished well.

I'll hang up now. Let the poison arrows fly. I've apologized to Darin and I'll always try to be a better driver. I think I am already a courteous driver, at least that is my intention. This is pretty much all I can do.

PS From a rookieís perspective there are two very strong ďrules/suggestionsĒ that are in direct conflict. Suggestion one: ďStay on the line and the faster will pass you safely. Donít take dangerous looks at the mirrors as you can get in trouble with that distraction. Suggestion two: Pay attention to the faster drivers behind you, point them by, donít get in their way, use your mirrors. After I get a year or two under my belt I may have a better perspective on this. Iím afraid there is no clear-cut answer. If I was bullheaded and didnít care and didnít try to get cars by me I donít think this thread would exist because perhaps the incident would not have happened.

B Wilson Verified Driver Series Champ
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There never is a clearcut answer in racing, get used to it...

I don't see any conflict in the suggestion to maintain your line and a fast guys will find a way around and don't try to occupy a space if someone is already there, i.e. use you mirrors and alter your line as needed. But like you say, I'll bet this starts to make more sense over time.

-bw

--------------------
Bruce Wilson
2010 Oregon Region Champ
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2010 25 Hours of Thunderhill E3 and Under 2 liter Overall Champion
Oregon Region SM Class Advisor

Shop Teacher
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I second that motion, Well said Bruce.

--------------------
Al Angulo
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Juan Pineda Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Hey Rick,

Thanks for speaking up, and welcome to your first race in SFR!

First, I'm sorry this happened to you and Darin. I know both of you,
and I'm sure you were both just trying to get by to the best of your
abilities. Unfortunately, the timing could have been worse for the two
of you, and put you both in very challenging positions.

I think the root cause of both incidents was similar. But it's better
to consider T9 first, because it's simpler with only two cars
involved. If I understand it right, you gave Darin a point-by with the
intent of letting him by on the right. So as you crested the hill, you
moved left. Unfortunately Darin picked the left side to pass, and so
the conflict.

So you remember the whole speech about "hold your line?" Well this is
exactly what they were talking about. You altered your line through
the turn to do something unexpected, albeit well intentioned, and this
was the main reason for the conflict. This is not an uncommon mistake.

Before going further, let me apologize for the poor explanations that
you have probably received about holding your line. The concept is
really poorly explained, probably for being poorly understood. I share
Dean's frustration about this. The schools and the experienced racers
should do a much better job of teaching and explaining this.

OK, so what went wrong? You were well intentioned and wanted to give
Darin the favorable line on the right. So you pointed him there and
made room. What could be simpler? Two problems. He is approaching much
faster than you probably anticipated and had to make a decision about
which side to go before you raised your hand. Second, in racing it's
difficult to see points, let alone see the distinction between right
and left. So Darin needed to make a choice of which side to go,
probably without the full benefit of your signals.

In the video, it's clear that at the moment Darin is aiming to the
left, it looks like you are either going right or going middle. That's
why he chose left. What Darin didn't expect you to do is to move so
far left so early. This was the result of your trying to make room for
him on the right.

So here's my advice about holding your line and getting lapped. This
isn't just for rookies. It applies to all cooperative
passing such as multi class racing (group 1 and 5.)

1) Yes, give the passer a point. But the message should be: I see you,
please let me know which side YOU want to go. Don't count on them to
go to the side you point. This is not DE. All you need to do is raise
your hand, or put it out the window if they are on your left to make
sure they see. Don't expect any subtlety to be conveyed in that
gesture, and allow for the possibility that the point might not
be not seen.

2) Don't move over or alter your line UNTIL you see them pick a
side. Just keep doing what you were doing.

3) When you see them pick a side, make room for them. Hold your line
does not mean drive without regard for the other car. It means be
predictable, and keep doing what you are doing UNTIL the passer
indicates their intention and/or occupies a piece of pavement next to
you.

So if you see the passer set up to the inside line on a turn, don't
take the apex. I know the apex your normal line. However, by setting
up inside, the passer is tell you they want that pavement. Probably
they will arrive there much sooner than you expect, so give them the
benefit of the doubt. Similarly, watch for the exit. While less
common, sometimes they will take the outside line. This may be
necessitated for a number of reasons, including being nose to tail
with a competitor and needing to get by you without losing position.

If the passer is experienced, they will be predictable also, and
communicate very clearly and as early as possible their intentions,
within the constraints of the situation. However, beware that a faster
car does not necessarily mean more experienced. There are some
notoriously poor drivers in high HP cars. Those guys often don't know
how to pass. Get to know who you are driving with.

Communication like this requires using your mirrors. That doesn't mean
driving in your mirrors. It just means keeping track of the positions
of the cars around you so you can read their intentions. It's actually
very obvious once you see a few times.

I think T5 was similar in terms of your wanting to make room on the
right side. However it was complicated by the addition of a third car
that was racing with Darin. It's tough, but sometimes you will find
two fast guys racing to get by you. You will often not realize there
is a third car involved. Often in these cases, they will split the
lapper, and you will find one on your right and one on the left. This
a good reason to not make any sudden moves as you try to adjust to
allow one car by, as there might be another car on your other side. To
the extent that you have good mirrors and are using them, you are
likely to be safer in these kinds of situations.

So that's my two bits. I hope it helps. I look forward to seeing you
and all the other racers at the end of the week at Laugna!

-Juan

--------------------
www.ArtOfRoadRacing.com Race Craft Clinic - Thunderhill - 30 Jan 2011

B Wilson Verified Driver Series Champ
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Exactly, good explanation Juan!

-b

--------------------
Bruce Wilson
2010 Oregon Region Champ
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2010 25 Hours of Thunderhill E3 and Under 2 liter Overall Champion
Oregon Region SM Class Advisor

Dusty Bottoms Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Juan's explanation is good. On the other hand, I feel for Rick.

What happened is that unintentionally a rookie got used as a pick. That is a lot to ask of a rookie. I still remember an inverted start in one of my first races. That was one of the scariest situations I experienced as a rookie. I think the words "hold your line" are incorrect because they get interpreted as "hold the racing line." What you want to do is stay in a line parallel to the track edge once you are getting passed.

Most people do two schools and they get a license and they don't have to deal with getting lapped until they start racing for real, hence there is the probationary period. It all just seems too automatic for my comfort (not saying this applies to Rick, I'm just saying in general.)

--------------------
"Your victory is tainted! Asterisk! Asterisk!!!"--Lisa Simpson

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New drivers at T-Hill tend to not drive to the exit apex of T9 when they are new here. It's blind and you think the track will end. So, consequently, they end up in the middle of the track more and there momentum takes them left, which, as we know that's where Darrin was. That being said, Rick still needs to know he's on his way. Especially after a straight between 8 and 9. I'm sure Darrin was closing fast. Use the mirrors as stated above. good luck in the future.

--------------------
Daniel Mairani DDS...still here, just faster.
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New drivers at T-Hill tend to not drive to the exit apex of T9 when they are new here. It's blind and you think the track will end. So, consequently, they end up in the middle of the track more and there momentum takes them left, which, as we know that's where Darrin was. That being said, Rick still needs to know he's on his way. Especially after a straight between 8 and 9. I'm sure Darrin was closing fast. Use the mirrors as stated above. good luck in the future.

--------------------
Daniel Mairani DDS...still here, just faster.
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Thanks to everyone for sharing their kind words and wisdom. Rick & I have exchanged PM's, and everything's cool between us. We've both learned from this and are looking forward to the next race.

The good thing about this incident is that it brings up a topic that should be discussed. I've heard that its best for lappers to stick to the racing line, because it makes them more predictable. But as others have correctly pointed out, that doesn't always work, and lappers should move off line at certain times (or always?). Either way, it seems like you'll hardly go wrong if you pay attention to the flags & your mirrors, and be predictable.

I'm not pretending to be perfect or nearly as experienced as most of the racers on here. Although I've raced & driven a lot, I've only done a few SM races, and this was my 1st SCCA race without the orange spot on the back of my car. So its quite possible that my lack of experience played a part in this situation too, and it cost me.

Can't wait to race Laguna Seca!

--------------------
2010 SCCA Regional Driver of the Year
2010 25 Hours of Thunderhill E1 Class winner, MX-5 Cup

rookie530
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thanks juan for that explanation. this was a much better explanation then what i got in race school. thanks for all the explanations, rick you werent the only rookie who learned from this. cant wait to finally race with yall
-rookie

--------------------
will mccloskey

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Juan...your explanation was very helpful and explains how the "hold your line" that we all get told is such a misleading statement. We shouldn't have to experience a faster driver hitting us in the apex of the corner to realize that isn't the way it really works.

--------------------
Paul McLester

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Some pretty helpful comments here. Just as Juan predicted.
Dusty hit a nail with his comment re "holding the line". I've always thought that meant the racing line. I now understand part of the confusion for rookies is the fact that some mean racing line while others mean line parallel to the edge during a pass. First time I've heard that one and it does make sense.

He hit another nail re the two schools. I did take two. Skippy and the TH SCCA school. There was pretty much no lapping in either, at least for me. I think both schools are good but in different ways. But for sure lapping is lacking.

Dr.Dan also make a good point. Turn 9 is not used in the school and quite frankly I have no idea where I'm supposed to be as I crest the hill. I can understand why they want everyone sequestered on the short course for school, but it leaves a real void for the first race. I'd never seen the back side of TH until the season opener. Maybe one session on the back for the school??

Like Darin says above. I appreciate the words of wisdom and I'll be less surprised at how quick Darin and the others at the lead can close on us turtles. Man, they close fast.

I'll have one extra spot mirror for LS. Tried to buy two but Ken only had one in stock.

B Wilson Verified Driver Series Champ
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I think we all learned something. It's hard to believe I've been doing this long enough to forget the learning process I went through, but in Rick and Darin's case, this experience was pretty much condensed all in one race weekend. Important thing was no significant damage, nobody hurt and it sounds like Darin will be knocking on the door for his first win soon!

-b

--------------------
Bruce Wilson
2010 Oregon Region Champ
2010 Monte Shelton Driver of the Year
2010 25 Hours of Thunderhill E3 and Under 2 liter Overall Champion
Oregon Region SM Class Advisor

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Darin won the race the next day, Bruce (it was a double regional).

This is old hat for him already... [Smile]

--------------------
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quote:
it sounds like Darin will be knocking on the door for his first win soon!


Gees Bruce, Try to follow along with us! [Smile]

Great explanation, Juan

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I hear by nominate Juan to give the first race pep talk and do's and don'ts lecture to all those in proud possession of the orange bullse...I mean square. (Include Bill H. just for shits and giggles!)

In all seriousness, rookie driver meeting at each race weekend until they can take off the sticker?? The benefit of listening to someone who is going to be out there with you later that day for 10 minutes...valuable! The potential of saving veterans 3 fenders, 2 doors and a bumper...PRICELESS!

Kudos Juan...and great add Dusty.

Ron

--------------------
-RA


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