Spec Miata Community   
search | help | calendar | games | forum home

  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» Hello Spec Miata Community » Sports Car Club of America » SCCA San Francisco Region » Oh No Not My Bumpers

 - Email this page to someone! | Subscribe To Topic  
Author Topic: Oh No Not My Bumpers
Shop Teacher
Member

Region: SF Nor Cal
Car #: #39
Year : 1990
Posts: 457
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for Shop Teacher     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

Well I didnít want to race in the rain on Sunday so I opt to run ITA on Saturday instead. I had to start last next to John dead last. He got behind the pack at the start so I caught up just in time for the green. 5 turns later I was out with substantial front and rear damage. My question is what I could have done if anything to change this outcome?

http://vimeo.com/10933323

--------------------
Al Angulo
Auto Instructor
Ford Senior Master Tech
ASE Master Tech

G. Davis Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
Member

Region: WDC
Car #: 03
Year : 1991
Posts: 346
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for G. Davis     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

Don't know what started it, maybe a missed shift. Don't know if there is any good answer to your question.

--------------------
--------------------

Glenn Davis

Colin MacLean Verified Driver
Fly Fifer

Region: Atlanta
Posts: 845
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for Colin MacLean     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

The way to avoid stuff like that is not to start at the back. Seriously.

--------------------
Colin MacLean
Flyin' MacLean Motorsports

trimless1 Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
Low Budget Member

Region: Southwest
Car #: 11
Year : 99 and 93
Posts: 347
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for trimless1     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

Was the 1st minute of the video a parade lap or the race? Seriously, it looked like you were passing everyone that had slowed for a yellow or something?

[ 04-14-2010, 08:17 PM: Message edited by: trimless1 ]

--------------------
Gale Corley
99 SM GRE Super Deluxe
93 SM GRE Jr. Deluxe

Dr.Dan Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
V8, nice! And good for you too!

Region: san francisco region
Car #: 39
Year : 90
Posts: 1800
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for Dr.Dan     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

I'm confused as well. was that a restart? if it was not looks like you were passing before the green. Without a radio, I can't tell, but if it was a start, it was the most ragged I have ever seen and one of the reasons I don't race ITA. THE answer is above and don't race ITA....... ever.

--------------------
Daniel Mairani DDS...still here, just faster.
http://www.DanielMairanidds.com

Viet-Tam Luu
Slow

Region: San Francisco Region
Car #: 14
Year : 1999
Posts: 453
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for Viet-Tam Luu   Author's Homepage     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

Couldn't have been a restart, Saturday's ITA race had no FCY's.

--------------------
Viet-Tam Luu (a.k.a. "Tam")
SFR-SCCA #14 ITS
Director, SCCA San Francisco Region

dtfastbear Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
faster than the average bear...

Region: SFR / NorCal
Car #: 72
Year : 93
Posts: 1276
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for dtfastbear   Author's Homepage     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

Al - I saw this happen from the paddock. We were watching the start of the Group 5 race. The car in front of the golf slowed significantly and the Golf overreacted and came to a complete stop.

If you watch enough SCCA races at Thunderhill, you'll see this exact scenario happen again and again at Turn 5. I say SCCA, because NASA runs the by-pass, which doesn't choke up like the Crow's Nest does.

Turn 5 is sharp enough and blind enough that when cars are in close proximity and side by side, the inside line almost ALWAYS comes to a stop. It looks like you were slowed enough that you could have made the turn on the inside line, but (Monday morning QB'ing here) you might have expected things to come to a grinding halt there.

Seriously - I'll bet that in at least 75% of spec miata and group 5 races, cars will come to a STOP at T5 and on the hill leading up to it due to the accordian effect on the first lap.

If it's any consolation, it could have been worse...

http://www.vimeo.com/10937487

Dean

--------------------
NASA Nor Cal SM series Director
www.molaps.com

Winner - Ford Racing Mustang Challenge Driver Shootout

Evil Genius Racing / Race Engineering / Stewart Development

NV Racer Verified Driver
Member

Region: SFR
Car #: 70
Year : 1990
Posts: 768
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for NV Racer     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

Al,
Did Stewie survive? Not much you can do as Dean says very common issue at the back of the pack on the first lap. More evidence of what Dan said ITA can be a crash fest. That was the third incident in that race on the first lap.

Dennis

dtfastbear Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
faster than the average bear...

Region: SFR / NorCal
Car #: 72
Year : 93
Posts: 1276
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for dtfastbear   Author's Homepage     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

Just to be clear - I didn't mean to imply that there's nothing you can do in this situation.

I'd advise braking early and often approaching T5 on the first lap if you are anywhere further back than about the 5th or 6th car at the front. You have to look 2 or 3 cars ahead, and if you can't see that far ahead, then overslow early. The inside line at T5 on the first lap can be a great place to make up 3, 4 or 5 positions if it's clear. But more often than not, the result is similar to the two videos above. How much are a couple positions in a club race worth to you?

Off my soap box. And in the interest of full disclosure, I ran into the back of the camera car in the video I posted [Smile] [Smile] So, do as I say, not as I did.

Dean

--------------------
NASA Nor Cal SM series Director
www.molaps.com

Winner - Ford Racing Mustang Challenge Driver Shootout

Evil Genius Racing / Race Engineering / Stewart Development

Johnny D Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
Hot Member

Region: SFR
Car #: 88 SM
Year : 99
Posts: 367
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for Johnny D     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

quote:
Originally posted by dtfastbear:
Just to be clear - I didn't mean to imply that there's nothing you can do in this situation.

I'd advise braking early and often approaching T5 on the first lap if you are anywhere further back than about the 5th or 6th car at the front. You have to look 2 or 3 cars ahead, and if you can't see that far ahead, then overslow early. The inside line at T5 on the first lap can be a great place to make up 3, 4 or 5 positions if it's clear. But more often than not, the result is similar to the two videos above. How much are a couple positions in a club race worth to you?

Off my soap box. And in the interest of full disclosure, I ran into the back of the camera car in the video I posted [Smile] [Smile] So, do as I say, not as I did.

Dean

+1
It's happens alot, and in Saturdays race Grp 5 race. I'll have to post my video.
I usually take advantage of it and pass 4 or 5 cars on the right/outside.

I think it should be pointed out in a drivers meeting at least for Grp 5 and 7.
[twocents]
J~

Shop Teacher
Member

Region: SF Nor Cal
Car #: #39
Year : 1990
Posts: 457
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for Shop Teacher     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

i had a radio guy tell me green shortly after i turne 15

--------------------
Al Angulo
Auto Instructor
Ford Senior Master Tech
ASE Master Tech

Dusty Bottoms Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
99 all the way!

Region: Lone Star
Year : 1990
Posts: 4253
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for Dusty Bottoms     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

I agree with Dean. I haven't raced at Thunderhill but I've seen enough videos from the likes of Dean and Juan to know you should expect to slow way down there. It's similar to other tracks around the country.

I agree the start was way ragged.

Also, it was hard to tell but did you pass a bunch of cars under yellow? There was a car off on the outside of turn 1 and if I'm not mistaken turn 1 station had the yellow out and everyone was passing at the start.

--------------------
"Your victory is tainted! Asterisk! Asterisk!!!"--Lisa Simpson

Shop Teacher
Member

Region: SF Nor Cal
Car #: #39
Year : 1990
Posts: 457
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for Shop Teacher     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

one thing you can see is the Hans belts keeping my head from going further.

--------------------
Al Angulo
Auto Instructor
Ford Senior Master Tech
ASE Master Tech

Shop Teacher
Member

Region: SF Nor Cal
Car #: #39
Year : 1990
Posts: 457
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for Shop Teacher     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

the tower had the yellow out then he pulled it back in as i past. im looking for ways to deal with the impact not the start.

--------------------
Al Angulo
Auto Instructor
Ford Senior Master Tech
ASE Master Tech

NV Racer Verified Driver
Member

Region: SFR
Car #: 70
Year : 1990
Posts: 768
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for NV Racer     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

The Yellow for T1 would of been displayed at the Starter Stand. The next station is for T2. The yellow that got pulled back at the Starter Stand was probably for the incident that happened with April.

Dennis

NV Racer Verified Driver
Member

Region: SFR
Car #: 70
Year : 1990
Posts: 768
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for NV Racer     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

quote:
Originally posted by Shop Teacher:
Im looking for ways to deal with the impact not the start.

If your slowed to avoid the impact you would of probably been hit from behind anyways. When cars stop dead on track with such a narrow hole there is going to be a impact nothing you could do.

Dennis

dtfastbear Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
faster than the average bear...

Region: SFR / NorCal
Car #: 72
Year : 93
Posts: 1276
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for dtfastbear   Author's Homepage     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

I'm not trying to make Al feel bad, here, but I disagree, Dennis. Slowing up the hill, anticipating a stop at the apex, might have led to a bump from behind, but it probably wouldn't have resulted in the Malachi Crunch with both ends seriously damaged.

I decided to watch the video again before I hit "Reply". Glad I did. This scenario is trickier than I thought, and I do believe you were a victim of circumstance to some degree here, Al. The car that stops at the apex comes across from the OUTSIDE line. I thought the cars were 2 x 2 up the hill. It happens more suddenly than I thought.

I'll stand by the assertion that when you have cars scattered across the hill approaching T5 on the first lap, judgment is the better part of valor. But, I wouldn't beat yourself up on this one. It was definitely developed VERY quickly.

Dean

--------------------
NASA Nor Cal SM series Director
www.molaps.com

Winner - Ford Racing Mustang Challenge Driver Shootout

Evil Genius Racing / Race Engineering / Stewart Development

Mark de Regt Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
Veteran Member

Region: NWR/Oregon; ICSCC
Car #: 70
Year : 1991
Posts: 1111
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for Mark de Regt   Author's Homepage     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

Three crashes on the first lap, and reading that such is not unusual, doesn't make me real charmed with the concept of saddling up and driving 900 miles to race on those wonderful tracks down there!

Muda Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
ComingToAMirrorNearYou

Region: WDC
Car #: #23
Year : 1991
Posts: 642
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for Muda     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

So, was the Sunday rain race clean? [Roll Eyes]

--------------------
Muda Motorsports
"We're all here 'cause we're not all there."

Viet-Tam Luu
Slow

Region: San Francisco Region
Car #: 14
Year : 1999
Posts: 453
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for Viet-Tam Luu   Author's Homepage     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

quote:
Originally posted by Muda:
So, was the Sunday rain race clean? [Roll Eyes]

Re: the Group 5 (IT*, FP, HP) race, I think only 17 cars went out due to others not willing or able (e.g. no rain tires) to race in the rain.

There were two FCY's, one due to an HP car breaking down, the other due to a Miata spun out and stuck in the mud outside T8. The race finished behind the Safety Car. I was out in front and don't know what it was like in the rest of the field, but I think things were generally calmer.

--------------------
Viet-Tam Luu (a.k.a. "Tam")
SFR-SCCA #14 ITS
Director, SCCA San Francisco Region

Shop Teacher
Member

Region: SF Nor Cal
Car #: #39
Year : 1990
Posts: 457
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for Shop Teacher     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

quote:
Originally posted by Muda:
So, was the Sunday rain race clean? [Roll Eyes]

Very clean it rained like hell. My logbook was revoked so i was out.

--------------------
Al Angulo
Auto Instructor
Ford Senior Master Tech
ASE Master Tech

Dr.Dan Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
V8, nice! And good for you too!

Region: san francisco region
Car #: 39
Year : 90
Posts: 1800
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for Dr.Dan     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

Spins, but no wrecks. smaller field. And why don't we run the bypass in Scca?? I have no idea.

--------------------
Daniel Mairani DDS...still here, just faster.
http://www.DanielMairanidds.com

dtfastbear Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
faster than the average bear...

Region: SFR / NorCal
Car #: 72
Year : 93
Posts: 1276
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for dtfastbear   Author's Homepage     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

Well, the bypass has an entire set of issues all of its own. I've come to like it, prefer it even. But, when someone spins at the bottom, impacts there can be a lot worse than the damage Al has to his car...

--------------------
NASA Nor Cal SM series Director
www.molaps.com

Winner - Ford Racing Mustang Challenge Driver Shootout

Evil Genius Racing / Race Engineering / Stewart Development

Viet-Tam Luu
Slow

Region: San Francisco Region
Car #: 14
Year : 1999
Posts: 453
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for Viet-Tam Luu   Author's Homepage     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

quote:
Originally posted by Shop Teacher:
My logbook was revoked so i was out.

Your logbook or your annual? Last time I had my annual revoked I was still allowed to run in the remaining race that weekend. I hope you get the car back together soon.

--------------------
Viet-Tam Luu (a.k.a. "Tam")
SFR-SCCA #14 ITS
Director, SCCA San Francisco Region

Dr.Dan Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
V8, nice! And good for you too!

Region: san francisco region
Car #: 39
Year : 90
Posts: 1800
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for Dr.Dan     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

quote:
Originally posted by dtfastbear:
Well, the bypass has an entire set of issues all of its own. I've come to like it, prefer it even. But, when someone spins at the bottom, impacts there can be a lot worse than the damage Al has to his car...

agreed. But, we should still try. At least speeds would probably be limited on the first lap somewhat. There are issues with every spot on the track , first lap, really. T-5 incidents seem to happen most frequently. I'm still dismayed at the lack of sanction for unforced contact. I mean I got esentially DQ'd for missing one yellow at the last nasa race. with extenuating circumstances, and yet cars hit others, without sanction causing damage, decreased race time, and potential injury and scca seems to do nothing. at least I'm no hearing about it..

--------------------
Daniel Mairani DDS...still here, just faster.
http://www.DanielMairanidds.com

Shop Teacher
Member

Region: SF Nor Cal
Car #: #39
Year : 1990
Posts: 457
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for Shop Teacher     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

Well it took a new hood, right fender, right head light bucket, major frame repair to the right front and right rear, new rear bumper, finish panel and repairing both crumpled quarter panels. Surprisingly both doors were untouched. [Embarrassed] ) I have decided to just repaint the entire car. Iím thinking of Mexican chrome. Iím just finishing up the body work and hope to spray it next week.

--------------------
Al Angulo
Auto Instructor
Ford Senior Master Tech
ASE Master Tech

dtfastbear Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
faster than the average bear...

Region: SFR / NorCal
Car #: 72
Year : 93
Posts: 1276
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for dtfastbear   Author's Homepage     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

Yeah - I do find it interesting that NASA will only run the bypass and SCCA will only run the Crow's Nest. Seems like both organizations would want to mix it up a little bit for the drivers. I also wish SCCA would run Thunderhill in the clockwise direction, as that is probably my favorite local track configuration.

Dan - I don't want to poke the yellow flag wound, but the reason NASA is so harsh on flag violations is that they do hot towing. So, they drop the hammer even on "slight" violations just to continue to reinforce the message that missing a flag has consequences...

Does anyone know if the Stewards reviewed the Saturday incident at the start? Did anything come of that?

Cheers,

Dean

--------------------
NASA Nor Cal SM series Director
www.molaps.com

Winner - Ford Racing Mustang Challenge Driver Shootout

Evil Genius Racing / Race Engineering / Stewart Development

dtfastbear Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
faster than the average bear...

Region: SFR / NorCal
Car #: 72
Year : 93
Posts: 1276
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for dtfastbear   Author's Homepage     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

OUCH!! I didn't realize there was that much damage, Al. That really sucks. [Frown]

Mexican chrome? Going for the big metal flake?? I still regret not going that route with the V8 car...

Jefe

--------------------
NASA Nor Cal SM series Director
www.molaps.com

Winner - Ford Racing Mustang Challenge Driver Shootout

Evil Genius Racing / Race Engineering / Stewart Development

Dr.Dan Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
V8, nice! And good for you too!

Region: san francisco region
Car #: 39
Year : 90
Posts: 1800
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for Dr.Dan     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

So be it Dean. But at least there is a penalty.I'm cool with that. I saw lots of contact in those vids and apparently Darrin is the only one who caught hell. And he didn't do anything.. Really a head scratcher.. What's Mexican chrome? duck tape?

--------------------
Daniel Mairani DDS...still here, just faster.
http://www.DanielMairanidds.com

Dr.Dan Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
V8, nice! And good for you too!

Region: san francisco region
Car #: 39
Year : 90
Posts: 1800
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for Dr.Dan     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

One color Al or go camo. lol

--------------------
Daniel Mairani DDS...still here, just faster.
http://www.DanielMairanidds.com

Viet-Tam Luu
Slow

Region: San Francisco Region
Car #: 14
Year : 1999
Posts: 453
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for Viet-Tam Luu   Author's Homepage     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Dan:
One color Al or go camo. lol

And then cry foul when people say that they didn't see you? [Razz]

(Kidding!)

--------------------
Viet-Tam Luu (a.k.a. "Tam")
SFR-SCCA #14 ITS
Director, SCCA San Francisco Region

Dr.Dan Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
V8, nice! And good for you too!

Region: san francisco region
Car #: 39
Year : 90
Posts: 1800
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for Dr.Dan     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

Funny, I did not hit anyone however. Kidding!

--------------------
Daniel Mairani DDS...still here, just faster.
http://www.DanielMairanidds.com

Shop Teacher
Member

Region: SF Nor Cal
Car #: #39
Year : 1990
Posts: 457
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for Shop Teacher     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

going to have problems making weight with all of the filler on the car

--------------------
Al Angulo
Auto Instructor
Ford Senior Master Tech
ASE Master Tech

NV Racer Verified Driver
Member

Region: SFR
Car #: 70
Year : 1990
Posts: 768
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for NV Racer     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

quote:
Originally posted by Shop Teacher:
Well it took a new hood

No Stewie!! [Eek!] My wife is disappointed your car was her favorite. At least you were able to save the tub. Transferring everything to a new tub is a PITA. From your video I did not think the damage was as severe as it turned out. Saw no steam, funny wobbles etc. to hint major damage. If you saw Dean's Video of my ITA crash 2 years ago there was not doubt.

Dennis

Brian Ghidinelli Verified Driver
Moonwalker

Region: SFR
Car #: 12
Year : 99
Posts: 267
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for Brian Ghidinelli   Author's Homepage     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

quote:
Originally posted by dtfastbear:
So, they drop the hammer even on "slight" violations just to continue to reinforce the message that missing a flag has consequences...

You mean like the P-car that rear-ended the tow truck last year? [Smash] [Smash] [Smash]

--------------------
MotorsportReg.com / Haag Performance / Team SafeRacer
2010 San Francisco Region SMT Champion

Dusty Bottoms Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
99 all the way!

Region: Lone Star
Year : 1990
Posts: 4253
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for Dusty Bottoms     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

Mexican chrome is just that..."chrome" paint in a can which is really just silver. Not big flake. We're not talking Allclad here.

Al I like your car colors...

http://www.nitrodyno.com/pictures/NRS4_325ci.jpg

--------------------
"Your victory is tainted! Asterisk! Asterisk!!!"--Lisa Simpson

SCCA_Racer
Member

Region: 33 SFR
Year : 1991
Posts: 167
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for SCCA_Racer   Author's Homepage     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

Coming from a Novice I was scolded about trying to pass going up turn 5 after I tried it during the last race of the school. I was on the outside entering side by side with another car and I ended up parked by the flag stand as everybody went by. No contact was made as I gave the inside guy the corner and jut got out of the way of everyone by parking on the edge of the track. I learned my lesson and as tempting as it is I will fall in line at turn 3 and then resume passing after 5. As everybody has said turn 5 first lap out is the crash zone for anyone further back than 1st. Just search YouTube for Miata crash THill. Back to what my instructor said, "You will not win the race on the first lap."
Hope that Mexican Chrome works for you, and do not clear coat it as it just makes it silver instead of so shinny.

--------------------
Joshua Fine
SCCA member 323214 since 2003
Novice Permit in 2010
Racing 2011

Paul Mitalas Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
"Safety Second"

Region: SFR
Car #: 61
Year : 1992
Posts: 32
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for Paul Mitalas     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

Given a choice, I go outside on turn 5. If someone does not notice me, I bail onto the outside gravel. That's easier than any of the options available to someone pinned on the inside during an incident. Plus I almost always pass people on the start.

   

   Close Topic   Feature Topic   Move Topic   Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic | Subscribe To Topic
Hop To: