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Author Topic: Thunderhill Track Extension
Johnny D Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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http://thunderhill.com/article.php?story=20100923134621535

J~

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ToddW Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Interesting section where the track splits and comes back together (SW corner)...reminds me of motocross.

Does anyone know the story behind the NCRC lawsuit weaved into the press release?

Jeff Lyon Verified Driver
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Good article. I remember doing my first track day there in 2000 with the big green canopy. The track facilities have come a long way and in a big part have been geared for the drivers since Thunderhill doesn't host any major spectator races. It would be great to see that track extension become a reality.

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Jeff
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quote:
Originally posted by ToddW:
Interesting section where the track splits and comes back together (SW corner)...reminds me of motocross.

Does anyone know the story behind the NCRC lawsuit weaved into the press release?

What about having a bridge/tunnel like Suzuka so you have the possibility of running CCW on the old part and CW on the new. [scratchchin]

Here's some posts from another site. Luc may be Luc from NCRC. See the post at the bottom.

http://www.trackhq.com/forums/f13/update-thunderhill-ncrc-lawsuit-3422/

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Rob Burgoon Verified Driver
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It is. I spoke with Luc on the phone about the lawsuit when it was getting rolling.

Also, feel free to look around trackHQ, we just stomped some "pro drivers" in a time trial challenge this last Monday.

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Ron Alan Made Donation to Website
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I had heard about the lawsuit but didn't fully understand what it was about. Know a little more now after reading the forum post. The court found in favor of NCRC...bottom line. I find it interesting that TH openly tries to bash NCRC in an update on future plans and have the nerve to whine about spending as much money on fighting a lawsuit as they have on this. I will stand corrected if there is more than 1 lawsuit they are referring to...maybe the windmill mess?

Regardless, TH is owned and run by SCCA(our club)if I understand it correctly. It sounds like we got some bad legal advise or didn't listen to some good! Glad Dave and Luc took a stand. They run a business just like everyone else and once they've made an agreement and paid their money for the track rental they shouldn't be told how to run their business. What I find even more funny is that TH started putting on there own days(Friends and Family)which essentially cost the same as NCRC [Eek!] Which I'm happy to say I participated in...great value! As well as NCRC! But in the end it's a black eye for TH and ridiculous for them to complain...should they be looking internally? SCCA bigs? [twocents]

If I'm completely uninformed then I will let someone correct me. I would love to see TH expand and become even a better race facility...but as the old saying goes you can't bite the hand that feeds you [Smash]

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-RA


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dp35 Verified Driver
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I agree with you completely Ron. IMO NCRC is the best local track day promoter, even before they slashed prices.

However justified it might be, I see this lawsuit as a lose-lose for the drivers. If NCRC wins they'll have money but won't likely be hosting events at TH or BW in the future, and the tracks will suffer from the financial loss. If the tracks win then NCRC is likely out of business.

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Ron Alan Made Donation to Website
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From what I understand a decision was already handed down. TH and Buttonwillow lost and their coutersuit was thrown out. NCRC has continued to rent the track through this whole process so I don't see anything changing. I think when this whole thing started part of the reason NCRC went forward was they were not being given prime dates or dates they had in the past because they wouldn't change their format as the tracks requested. That may continue...who knows. But if TH or BW continue to publically spit on NCRC or any other group that is a paying customer...shame on them [shame]

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-RA


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Shop Teacher
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Ok hear is my 2 cents worth, I had dinner with Luc and Dave last night and the update is this. Once NCRC filed an action against T Hill, T hill filed a suit against NCRC for extortion. It bought T hill some time but they lost, they had to pay all of NCRC attorney fees. It did open the door for the main suit to move forward. It could take up to 3 years to get through this.
The suit started when other clubs complained to T hill about NCRC low cost track days (99.00 race 125.00 open track). They tried to get T hill to not give them any days unless they raised their prices. NCRC refused, so NCRC received few days and NO weekends for 2010. It look like they will receive NO days for 2011. If T hill is forced to pay NCRC for damages, T Hill will be forced to pay NCRC three times their losses. That could exceed 1 million dollars. Button Willow has partnered up with T hill so they are just as involved. NCRC has offered to settle out of court but the board refused.
Yes the track is supposed to be operated by the members of the SCCA. A few key players on the board seem to run it as they like. It’s NOT their money to lose they work for T hill so what the heck. To much conflict of interest on the board, Im not going to say names but one of them is getting very wealthy getting tons of weekends at T hill for his own track days. We can change it if we all pull together, It is our club. Just look into why T hill will no longer put on its own events like Friends n Family day for drivers to enjoy the track for $50 -150. Other clubs complained that it wasn’t right for the track to put on cheap days. The other clubs like charging us 300 even 400 for a day at the track. The man that put those days on has not had his contract renewed and is no longer working at T hill.

IMO
I love the guys that work and keep T Hill operating. I feel up till now they have done a great job. I do have a real problem with this suit. It’s not a secret that I don’t make a lot of money teaching high school. The problem I have is I love to drive. NCRC gave me and many of my students a chance to enjoy this great sport at a cost we could afford. For T hill to call out NCRC for all of us to see is IMO unethical and shows poor professionalism. It was done in very poor taste. I just want to drive, keep your dirty laundry out of my house. You are in a law suit, you Handel it.

It would be interesting to see what the salaries the directors of T hill are receiving. I think we would be shocked.
Al

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Al Angulo
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Dave McAnaney Verified Driver
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Sounds like blatent price fixing to me. I hope Thunderhill (and SFR/SCCA) get better council going forward because it don't appear like they have made sound legal decisions up to this point. Hopefully the new (and current) SM members on the board can reevaluate their position and course of action.

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Dave McAnaney
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I read a few things saying that this won't affect us, the drivers. Well I disagree. Thunderhill lost me as a customer, as the only days I planned to do at the track was NCRC in 2011 and/or friends and family which they no longer do. NCRC was the only thing I can budget! You have to be a moron to pay $400 to run with HOD.

Shop Teacher
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Mike Smith once told me he reads all of our post. I truly hope he reads these. This is not only hurting the sport, T Hill and us. Come on Mike we elected you get this thing fixed!

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I have no issue with what any HPDE company wants to charge...its a free market. Consumers can choose what works for them. When you go to a ball game are all the seats priced the same? Some are happy to pay more in return for something they want...some will go for the bargains and give up the perks or extra's. For the bigger guys in the market to complain and try and influence TH to force the little guys to alter their marketing strategy is wrong. For TH to go along with it is idiotic.

I've heard it explained that TH is the wholesaler and it is unfair of them(in the case of friends and family)to offer lower prices because it hurts the retailers. I feel this thinking is flawed. TH is the product, guys like NASA, Trackmasters, HOD, NCRC, etc. are the wholesalers. Regardless of the wholesaler, TH collects the same rental. Once they have sold their product it's up to the wholesaler to sell theirs...why should TH care what the wholsaler sells for, they've already sold their product? Unless of course someone in the manufacturing is also selling retail and stands to lose some market share [Eek!]

I actually think every HPDE group has something to offer for the price range they choose. But this situation really seems to be a lose lose unless SCCA SFR wises up.

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-RA


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Ron Alan Made Donation to Website
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quote:
Originally posted by Sean Allen:
I read a few things saying that this won't affect us, the drivers. Well I disagree. Thunderhill lost me as a customer, as the only days I planned to do at the track was NCRC in 2011 and/or friends and family which they no longer do. NCRC was the only thing I can budget! You have to be a moron to pay $400 to run with HOD.

For the record and to put out accurate info...I believe all HOD days at TH this year were $275. I to like Sean looked for the cheaper days to get in some no frills track time. They were limited this year and appear to be very limited next year.

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-RA


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charliehayes
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quote:
Originally posted by Ron Alan:
TH collects the same rental. Once they have sold their product it's up to the wholesaler to sell theirs...why should TH care what the wholsaler sells for, they've already sold their product?

+1 My exact thoughts.

tahoe z Verified Driver
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hi,t hill can charge anyone any price.racing isnt for the poor!dont tell a private biz how to do biz,this is wrong, and this country has the same problem! what ncrc is doing is so so wrong.if they came after my biz i would do the same thing.and shaun t hill doesnt have to support your racing,and mike smith please take note of this post!

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kim willcox

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Thunderhill is not a private business. It is ours, the members of SFR SCCA. I would like an accounting of salaries paid, prices charged, and how dates are scheduled. If, through poor legal representation, or poor management decisions, we the club members, are going to be on the hook for a multimillion dollar settlement I expect heads to roll.

tahoe z Verified Driver
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dion,they a private corporation they dont trade on wallstreet aka public corp , u need to get over the club thing private is private! if t hill was gone to another owner u will pay more ,or as the fernly nevada track has gone broke/and now no racing in northern nevada the managment at t hill has helped all racers in nor cal scca race cheaper your entry fees reflect that

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T-Hill can charge anyone any price? Legally they cannot charge person 1 more for the same product they are selling person 2. If you are in construction you may be able to get away with it, but any other industry, I am afraid you are wrong.

Racing isn't for the poor? If your definition of poor is along the lines of "having little or no money, goods, or other means of support: a poor family living on welfare" then you are correct.

If your defintion of poor is along the lines of "lacking in skill, ability, or training: a poor cook. Or deficient in moral excellence; cowardly, abject, or mean, then you may fall under said category.

Don't tell a private biz how to do biz? Exactly, T-Hill has no business telling a private business how to do business. If someone wants to rent the track and give a way free track days they have every right.

What NCRC is doing is so so wrong? Wal Mart, the worlds largest corporation, was built on this business model, cheap prices. It's one of the many different ways to try and build a business. If your competitor decides to lower his prices, sure you may want to threaten or try and coerse them, but it's against the law. You either lower your prices, give up market share, or you were confident in your product and service, do nothing and loose nothing. T-Hill could look it at from another perspective. NCRC would be attracting fresh new people to the track because of their pricing. This in turn could lead to more racers in the future. Sure they may not jump right into a GT class at first and would have to settle with Spec Miata.

I am no moron, most of the time, but for a $400 track day you are getting at least double the track time vs. an SCCA race weekend. Sounds like a bargain. If HOD's business was such that it provided me more of what I wanted, then I would pay it.

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anyone else notice that the original news release is no longer on the t-hill site?

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Craig Evans
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fishguyaz
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so cant a track just say we dont want to do business with you at all?
i know in my state there is one club that has been told NO, we ( the track) will NOT do business with a certain club. end of story.
i am confused.

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Josh Pitt
AZ Region

charliehayes
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Im pretty sure the track never said they won't do business with them. The argument is over the fact the track wants the club to raise their prices for open track because other clubs cannot compete. If Im wrong let me know.


I hate when things like this happens because in the end the clubs want to make the drivers happy but this is making it worse.

Ron Alan Made Donation to Website
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quote:
Originally posted by Sacslider:
anyone else notice that the original news release is no longer on the t-hill site?

It was gone a couple days after this thread started. Too bad because anyone just reading this would not understand the first dozen or so posts.

Fishguyaz...as far as I know your absolutely right...TH can refuse to rent to anyone. And if Shopteachers post is correct...TH has chosen to not rent to NCRC for 2011. What your not understanding is this is being done because when NCRC(a paying customer of TH)was asked to raise their prices they charged us(the end user)they said no. In response to this(because of pressure from other HPDE clubs)TH then would no longer give NCRC a choice of better dates or any weekends...essentially squeezing them out of the market. They didn't feel this was right so they filed suit. It is worth noteing again as mentioned above, one member of an advisory committee(not sure what its called exactly) to TH is also a owner of one of the larger retailers(HPDE track day seller). This may be innocent but doesn't look good to the average guy like me. I would hope someone could help me understand this role?

Tahoe Z...please feel free to correct me but Thunderhill was built and is owned by the SFR SCCA. San Francisco Region, Sports Car CLUB of America. Call it private if you like...maybe because you can't buy stock on the ticker...but all of us send in a check every year that gives us a vote in who represents the CLUB!!! [Roll Eyes]

We all want Thunderhill to make a profit...and this will be determined by what the market will support. But once they've sold(rented the track)at that market(wholesale)rate, they really have no business telling the retailer what they should charge. For those who dissagree with me I will smile and say hi as I walk by you with your picket signs at Costco, Wallmart and Sam's. When you drive them out of business Whole Foods will be proud of you because $10 per pound is what everybody should be paying for their sliced turkey lunch meat [Smash]

Great post Jeremy! I to have paid the higher prices for the track time...and was happy with what I got and happy to pay. I also loved paying the cheaper prices when I could sneak out on a weekday [yep]

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-RA


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so the club who rented the track was giving cheaper rates for trackdays on weekdays?
if i understand this correctly what is the big deal?
when i go to vegas, hotels are cheaper on weekdays, and over holidays like thanksgiving, because demand is less than on prime time such as weekends and big events (like newyears etc.)
i think if the track cannot keep the majority of its customers (those renting the track)happy, they do have the right to say we will not rent YOU the track, unless you meet the following conditions.
would it be any different if the club renting the track was doing something that put a larger liability on TH, say the renter said we wont use any corner workers, or any tech; could TH say OK, fine, then we wont rent you OUR track under those conditions.
i look at this from the view of being a small business owner for the past 21 years. i cannot cater to one client and in doing so anger/lose all of my other clients. it must be a california thing( as far as the law goes) for TH to have lost a law suit.
oh well, as long as I can go race there sometime with SCCA or NASA, i dont care, since i dont ever do track days anywhere, unless its a competitive race going on.

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Josh Pitt
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quote:
Originally posted by fishguyaz:
so the club who rented the track was giving cheaper rates for trackdays on weekdays?
if i understand this correctly what is the big deal?
when i go to vegas, hotels are cheaper on weekdays, and over holidays like thanksgiving, because demand is less than on prime time such as weekends and big events (like newyears etc.)
i think if the track cannot keep the majority of its customers (those renting the track)happy, they do have the right to say we will not rent YOU the track, unless you meet the following conditions.
would it be any different if the club renting the track was doing something that put a larger liability on TH, say the renter said we wont use any corner workers, or any tech; could TH say OK, fine, then we wont rent you OUR track under those conditions.
i look at this from the view of being a small business owner for the past 21 years. i cannot cater to one client and in doing so anger/lose all of my other clients. it must be a california thing( as far as the law goes) for TH to have lost a law suit.
oh well, as long as I can go race there sometime with SCCA or NASA, i dont care, since i dont ever do track days anywhere, unless its a competitive race going on.

You are correct as far as I understand the situation. But some, including myself, view it as a form of price fixing. I may be wrong but I don't think it has anything to do with safety or bad behavior by NCRC on track days. Shopteachers post above is the most accurate and current info on the actual lawsuit and countersuit. If someone else has better facts or if in fact it is not accurate by all means please chime in?

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-RA


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Brian Ghidinelli Verified Driver
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I will update this thread after the board meeting tonight with accurate information.

As it stands today, the legal complaint is available from Dave Mills if you want to actually read what they're charging. Thunderhill hasn't lost the lawsuit; their counter-suit was thrown out so the original suit will continue forward.

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Shop Teacher
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IMO if the track gets paid what they asked of the club for the rental of the track. What dose it matter how much the club charges their customers. T Hill is sending me messages every month asking if im interested in renting the track with available dates. We all know T Hill is hurting right now for clubs to rent the track. I just don’t understand. I hope someone post something that can make me understand why this is happening.
AL

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Johnny D Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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quote:
Originally posted by Ron Alan:
quote:
Originally posted by Sacslider:
anyone else notice that the original news release is no longer on the t-hill site?

It was gone a couple days after this thread started. Too bad because anyone just reading this would not understand the first dozen or so posts.


Here's Daves News Letter.

The Voice of VODDEN!

Track Extension In The Offering At Thunderhill!
One of the neatest things about a track specifically built to accommodate the recreational user [you] is that it can continue to develop based on input and support from its users [you]. The history of Thunderhill Park began with drivers paying a $50 surcharge on their race entries for SCCA local events. This process went on for ten years! Along the way a great many racers and friends of racing stepped up to help as well. Among them were the Shelby Club, the Golden Gate Porsche Club and the Northern California Karters to name a few. Donations of money, services and equipment were commonplace. With the exception of the recent law suit by the American Racing Club dba NCRC, everyone who has come into contact with the mission of Thunderhill Park has put their heart, soul and money into making this track venue the best it can be for all who cross the starting line for that ride around the three miles of adrenalin!
The key to Thunderhill Park is that you are the benefactor. Thunderhill Park is owned by a Club [Sports Car Club of America- San Francisco Region] A Club, by definition, is a body of people who join together to pursue a common interest and passion for the good of the group and, in the case of 501 C- corporations, some public benefit. In our case that benefit is defined as “education and recreation associated with the automobile.”
Assuming that we continue to get this kind of support in the form of customers booking dates at this track and assuming that the ARC law suit does not bring Thunderhill Park to its knees, we are planning to build more race track to the west of the existing facility. Working in partnership with a number of track supporters [no one gets paid/volunteer-types] we have designed 1.85 miles of additional asphalt that will leave the existing track around the turn nine area and weave over the top of the western shelf onto property already owned by the track. This new extension will feature twelve turns with the option for five more as well as a separate hot pit and paddock area. It will re-enter the existing track at the low point in the western shelf between turns nine and ten. It will make the entire race course 4.7 miles long and, once again, Thunderhill will be the talk of the industry from Virginia International Raceway to Oregon Raceway Park. It will be awesome!
The process has been underway for some time and was only halted when the possibility of costly litigation reared its ugly head. Make no mistake, the time, effort and money spent on activities such as a law suit takes away from future growth opportunities including the most basic forms of track improvement. While we have funds to start the track extension the truth is that we have spent more on this law suit to date then we have on the new track extension.
As you know, all of our funding comes from you in the form of track rentals, fuel purchases, food service and other activities that you spend your money on here at the track. We have no other source of income besides you. This is important because while we still plan on proceeding with the expansion of Thunderhill Park to 4.7 miles in length, we will also need to recover the costs of litigation. One way or another, this cost will come from you in fees we will have to charge to make the track work.
While the final design of the track extension is not in cement [or asphalt] the reality of having two separate venues run at one time is in the offering. Like the Streets of Willow Springs, Thunderhill will be able to rent the three-mile big track and provide a great venue for Hooked on Driving or Track Masters or Keigwin at the Track simultaneously on the smaller segment. According to our friends at Willows Springs their “streets” track is actually used more often by entry level groups than the big track because it does not require three miles to provide what these programs offer their customers. Some groups simply want a shorter course.
We are also courting the possibility of a track driving school like Russell at Infineon or Barber at Mazda Raceway at Laguna Seca. Having a driving school that can operate parallel with the big track would greatly add to the resources of Thunderhill allowing yet more improvements and new developments at the Park.
The track’s master plan also calls for the addition of an industrial park much like the one at Infineon. There is a plan for the development of an off-road area to appeal this group of passionate race enthusiasts and a kart track including motard options as well as better spectator amenities. The list is only limited by the imagination and our ability to fund these ideas from the revenue that we generate from your support, form your business.
For eighteen years most of you have seen what we have been able to do with Thunderhill Park. I hope that the majority of you have found our development pleasing and maybe even surprising. But there is more. With your help we can continue to add to the value that each of you receives when you invest your time and recreational dollars at Thunderhill Park. This track was built by you for you. All of us who work here are simply stewards of that shared dream and that need for a place to play we can count on when the other tracks are no longer able or willing to embrace the recreational user. That day may never come but we all thought that it would back in 1988 when Riverside was closing and Laguna Seca was given over to the County and a developer named Skip Berg acquired Sears Point Raceway from Jack Williams.
With the new reality of our economy and the aging of our prime market, the future of recreational race tracks will depend on how well they are run. New ideas, new sources of revenue and, yes, a new extension to the existing three miles we have all come to enjoy, may make the difference. I look forward to sharing this new development with each of you as we continue to seek county approval and adjust the design of the track addition. There is a lot to such an endeavor and it will be fun to watch it take shape over the coming years. I hope you enjoy the process too and that you will continue to make Thunderhill Park your choice for club, private groups and personal on-track experiences. Check out http://www.thunderhill.com or go into our Club house and look over the big drawing of the master plan for Thunderhill Park. Perhaps, like those that came before you, you can play a key part in making the future of Thunderhill a new reality.
Thanks for supporting Thunderhill Raceway Park!

--------------------
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Johnny D Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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 -

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The general message and ideas above are very cool...would love to see this happen. But when you look at the TH calender and there are 22 open days between now and the end of the year, it makes you wonder why they would be discouraging anyone to rent the track? To infer that they will have to charge more/raise their prices to cover the cost of litigation to seemingly garner support from members for their position is unprofessional...especially if they are wrong. If they prevail so be it...i will accept that. Either way i don't think things will ever be any less expensive as far as SCCA events are concerned. I can only hope we will get less expensive track time through the various HPDE clubs. [twocents]

By the way, remember the frequent racer program? Anyone know if they(SCCA) are still going to give rebates?

--------------------
-RA


"Happy birthday, I didn't get you a present...Oh, mom got you one? Well, that's from me then too, unless it's shitty."
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Johnny D Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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I'm no layer but...

Isn't it in the clubs best interest to settle out of court?

Negociate a lower/defurred payment or give out (free) track days as payment for a period of time settles upon, instead of dragging this out with layer fees and a bad ending anyways?

J~

--------------------
Avatar Video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ww9cFE3lKcA

Dave McAnaney Verified Driver
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--------------------
Dave McAnaney
SM#45 San Francisco Region

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quote:
Originally posted by Ron Alan:
By the way, remember the frequent racer program? Anyone know if they(SCCA) are still going to give rebates?

Hi Ron,
Latest edition of the wheel says checks will go out by the end of the year.

Ray

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quote:
Originally posted by Ray Meister:
quote:
Originally posted by Ron Alan:
By the way, remember the frequent racer program? Anyone know if they(SCCA) are still going to give rebates?

Hi Ron,
Latest edition of the wheel says checks will go out by the end of the year.

Ray

Christmas bonus! [Big Grin]

Thanks Ray

Johnny...is the "w" key broken on your key board? [Razz]

--------------------
-RA


"Happy birthday, I didn't get you a present...Oh, mom got you one? Well, that's from me then too, unless it's shitty."
9:52 AM Sep 14th, 2009 via web
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Kim Ouye Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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What a pathetic and vindictive letter. I've lost a lot of respect for TH management. They only have themselves to blame.

--------------------
Kim

91 BRG SMT RIP
06 MX-5 Cup

"Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting 'Holy sh*t...what a ride!'" - Unknown

Shop Teacher
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quote:
Originally posted by Kim Ouye:
What a pathetic and vindictive letter. I've lost a lot of respect for TH management. They only have themselves to blame.

+1

--------------------
Al Angulo
Auto Instructor
Ford Senior Master Tech
ASE Master Tech

Brian Ghidinelli Verified Driver
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Back from the board meeting last night, a few thoughts:

Ever had an on-track incident where you swore up and down that the other guy hit you? And he swore you hit him? Like the Makishima-Neimann incident from Thunderhill a couple of races ago?

Lawsuits are a lot like that. So far what you have is NCRC's version of the story as written in a legal complaint (or as told to Al over dinner - same source, same thing). I have read the complaint in its entirety and I would encourage everyone to do the same so you can be informed. Thunderhill is defending itself and will file their side of the story in response.

The posts above accept the NCRC complaint as gospel while none of us have heard the other side of the story yet. Lawyers, the conservative people they are, never recommend commenting on an ongoing lawsuit and the post on Thunderhill.com was pulled for essentially that reason.

Lawsuits aren't fun but let's stick to the facts rather than opinions and emotion. Losing the lawsuit wouldn't be good for the track but they can't roll over simply because someone files a lawsuit. I don't know the merits of Thunderhill's argument but we have a legal system designed to resolve these kinds of disputes and that's how the track is handling it.

The next opportunity for (meaningful) discussion will be when the track responds to the complaint. I do not know an ETA for that.

--------------------
MotorsportReg.com / Haag Performance / Team SafeRacer
2010 San Francisco Region SMT Champion

Chad L. Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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quote:
Originally posted by Kim Ouye:
What a pathetic and vindictive letter. I've lost a lot of respect for TH management. They only have themselves to blame.

Now explain to me how the letter is vindictive and pathetic. I thought there was a lot of good information in it. Maybe I am not as good at reading between the lines.

Shop Teacher
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quote:
Originally posted by Brian Ghidinelli:



I have read the complaint in its entirety and I would encourage everyone to do the same so you can be informed. Thunderhill is defending itself and will file their side of the story in response.

Post it so we can read it.

--------------------
Al Angulo
Auto Instructor
Ford Senior Master Tech
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tahoe z Verified Driver
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thank you, Brian , well put

--------------------
kim willcox

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quote:
Originally posted by Brian Ghidinelli:
Back from the board meeting last night, a few thoughts:

Thunderhill is defending itself and will file their side of the story in response.

The posts above accept the NCRC complaint as gospel while none of us have heard the other side of the story yet. Lawyers, the conservative people they are, never recommend commenting on an ongoing lawsuit and the post on Thunderhill.com was pulled for essentially that reason.

Lawsuits aren't fun but let's stick to the facts rather than opinions and emotion. Losing the lawsuit wouldn't be good for the track but they can't roll over simply because someone files a lawsuit. .

Thanks Brian.

When I first read the post on TH website(see above), I thought the suit was over...based on other info I had heard...I'm glad Al clarified and Brian has confirmed where it is at. I'm also glad the TH Lawyers agreed with those of us who thought the post was way out of line [thumbsup]

What is the chance of someone posting up the other side(facts) of the story? I'm guilty of only knowing 1 side...and commenting on it [Frown]

But I have very strong opinions if this ends up being about ego's and not facts. I will reserve judgement for a future date and let this run it's course in the judicial system [banghead]

--------------------
-RA


"Happy birthday, I didn't get you a present...Oh, mom got you one? Well, that's from me then too, unless it's shitty."
9:52 AM Sep 14th, 2009 via web
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Kim Ouye Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Chad...so you think Vodden is just reporting fact? You think his sole purpose is to tell you about track improvements?

If the goal is to inform us about track expansion, why keep throwing in the comments about the lawsuit? Why throw in negative comments?

Sorry mate, this was a cheap and backhanded shot at NCRC/ARC. If it wasn't why should it be removed? I agree with TH lawyers, it was a damaging statement and was removed.

Shortened version of this letter: "if it wasn't for NCRC/ARC we would be moving forward with the track extension for you."

I'll be glad to read the full complaint. Where can it be found?

--------------------
Kim

91 BRG SMT RIP
06 MX-5 Cup

"Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting 'Holy sh*t...what a ride!'" - Unknown

Kim Ouye Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Okay...read the complaint. Waiting for TH's response. Will TH/SCCA give public access to it too?

--------------------
Kim

91 BRG SMT RIP
06 MX-5 Cup

"Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting 'Holy sh*t...what a ride!'" - Unknown

Shop Teacher
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David, (Voden)



We couldn’t help notice the remarks that were made on the Thunderhill web site about the potential impact this lawsuit might have on both the track and the racers. The purpose of this letter is not to re-hash who’s right or wrong, but simply to see if a solution that might be beneficial for all parties could be reached. The only thing sure in the lawsuit is that the combined legal fees will be in the hundreds of thousands of dollars, regardless of who wins the case.



During the meeting we had with you and Terry in April, you told us we should trust you to treat us fairly if we were to dismiss the lawsuit. Therefore we’d like to propose a possible resolution to the litigation. For the good of the sport, and to show our good faith, we would propose the following:

· We would dismiss our lawsuit without prejudice

· Each party will bear their legal costs (aside from the Anti-SLAPP motion) incurred so far

· We will not ask for damages

· We will not ask for a long-term contract, against being treated fairly

“Treated Fairly” for us means:

· Being offered dates at both tracks without discrimination due to our business model or being told what our entry fee should be

o I.e. for Thunderhill for 2011, a total of about 12 days, including 3-4 weekends between March and October, and 5-7 Fridays during the same period of time

o For Buttonwillow for 2011, 2 weekends comparable to what we got in 2010, as well as a few Fridays/Mondays

· The same principle should be applied for the following years, with a normal rate of growth, i.e. being able to expand slightly each year

· A written agreement between the parties to extend the statute of limitations of the current claims. That is a sine qua non condition to this proposition



Obviously, by putting forward such a proposition that relies heavily on trusting both tracks to be fair to us, we are taking a huge chance. But we do believe it is the best solution if the parties sincerely want to rebuild trust and goodwill in their mutual business relationship. We hope you will not interpret this proposal as weakness from our side, but rather as a good faith effort to resolve this situation.



Since this proposition involves dates for 2011, time is of the essence. It also applies to Buttonwillow. This offer is contingent on both tracks agreeing to it.



As you know, we will be at Thunderhill this Friday, and if you’re interested in discussing further we will be available.



Luc & Dave

NCRC





cc: Les Phillips

--------------------
Al Angulo
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From: Shannon Ell [shannon@thunderhill.com]
Sent: Monday, December 14, 2009 3:06 PM
To: dave@ncracing.org; LucNoel@aol.com
Subject: Good Afternoon
Dave and Luc,
We appreciate your offer for a 5 year agreement and the monetary value attached to it. We also appreciate your
additional idea and offer of taking donations for Thunderhill improvements via your website and registration process.
These are excellent offers and we hope they can happen.
As you know, partnering is not always about money.While I understand money can fix some things, it won’t change the
status of our current relationship without some fundamental changes occurring along the way.
Having said that, here are the changes I would like to see occur in our 2010 partnership.
1. Raise your entry fees at Thunderhill to a level that is friendlier to and more inline with our customer base. (I
think your fees at other tracks are about $175?)
2. Accept that fromtime to time Thunderhill may put on events as needed.
3. Partner with Thunderhill in terms of promoting NCRC at Thunderhill with web banner ads, tabloid ads, and
signage.
4. Give additional thought to providing us access to your members by sending your people to the T-Hill website to
sign up for our mailing list.
5. Position yourself as a good and valuable member of the teamof customers who put on events at Thunderhill.
(this is most important)
If you would be willing to put the above in place for the 2010 and accept the best schedule we can offer you at this time,
we would accept your offer of a multi year agreement beginning in 2011.
I understand this is asking a lot of you, but as you know there is a lot at stake here. I look forward to your responses and
I truly hope that you can see the value in working with Thunderhill in the future.
Thank you both for your time!
Shannon Ell
General Manager
Thunderhill Raceway
http://www.thunderhill.com

--------------------
Al Angulo
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I have a copy of the charges these are a few letters in there. Its long and i dont know how to post it.

--------------------
Al Angulo
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Brian Ghidinelli Verified Driver
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Al - Email Dave Mills at dave@ncracing.org. It's in legalese and very long so posting it here would be a bit of a train wreck.

[Edit: nevermind, posting at the same time]

--------------------
MotorsportReg.com / Haag Performance / Team SafeRacer
2010 San Francisco Region SMT Champion

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3 weekends, 5 fridays? Is it just me or is this a no brainer? Opps...ok now I'll be quiet [Big Grin]

[ 10-27-2010, 01:42 PM: Message edited by: Ron Alan ]

--------------------
-RA


"Happy birthday, I didn't get you a present...Oh, mom got you one? Well, that's from me then too, unless it's shitty."
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Dave Stevens
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quote:
Originally posted by Kim Ouye:
Okay...read the complaint. Waiting for TH's response. Will TH/SCCA give public access to it too?

Unless under seal it's a public record and you don't need permission to view or distribute it. The documents are filed at the court and made public. Some are available on line, some you have to go request from the court. How depends on the way that court operates.

I wouldn't put too much stock in what the initial pleadings say. The plaintiff will try to make the defendant look as wrong as possible, responsible for the decline of civilization, killed Bambi's mom, etc. The defendants then file a response and typically a motion to dismiss. In that they paint the plaintiffs as wrong and crazy for bringing the suit. The judge will then weigh both side. He can then choose for the case to proceed, choose to dismiss or ask them to try and settle on their own. If it proceeds to trial it could take quite a while. A couple of years depending on the situation.

That's a drag because the new extension looks great. I've driven the track and quite like it. I think it's underated as far as tracks go. Good elevation changes, fast sweepers. I'd have to read the entire pleading but I'm not so sure that the DE club operator has that strong a case. It looks like it could be a case of filing a suit with the track calling his bluff and not settling. I wouldn't throw the SFR or track under the bus. They could very well be doing what's in the best interest of the club.

--------------------
The 2011 Money Furnace
http://racing.roaddog.com/

Dr.Dan Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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+1 for what Dion asked for.. And as usual.. only the lawyers will profit. Everyone else loses. I won't comment on who's right or wrong w/o the whole story. With what I've read right now if I had a knife to my throat. I'd say Jeremy hit it right..Superficially look like someone has a lot of clout with TH. Am I wrong in assuming that TH won't let NCRC charge what they want? That is the meat of this right?

--------------------
Daniel Mairani DDS...still here, just faster.
http://www.DanielMairanidds.com

 
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