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Author Topic: Paint
PETEH Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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I am getting ready to paint my Spec car and am wondering what type of paint to use. Repair and touch up are a consideration. eg. Lacqer, Enamel, etc.

TSouth Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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I went with a acrylic enamel for a few reasons:

1. It's cheap
2. Only one step required
3. Can be color sanded
4. Multiple coats will allow for many color sands/buffs that may be required after tire swirlies etc.
5. It's cheap

I painted mine in the garage and spent as much on supplies as it would have cost to have a discount shop do the work, even using the cheap stuff. YMMV.

Ken Tubbs Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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I just went through this and decided on an acrylic urethane single stage from PPG (MTK product code). It's single stage so it's a bit simpler to apply, urethanes are really tough and flexible so it was recommended for race car use, it's flexible enough that no flex agent is needed for plastic bumper covers and it's relatively inexpensive ($95/gal + $40/qt for hardener and $20/gal for reducer) I'm very happy with the results. It goes on real purty and glosses up nicely. I got a couple of runs and just laid on a couple of extra coats and wet sanded out the runs when it was dry.

In talking to the local body shop guys you should avoid the synthetic enamels. They are inexpensive but you get what you pay for in terms of durability.

I believe another advangtage of a single stage system is that touch ups are simple. Just overspray the existing color and wet sand it in.

[ 10-18-2005, 12:28 PM: Message edited by: Ken Tubbs ]

Jim Boemler Verified Driver
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Just tell me it isn't red, Ken. [Smile]

Is "acrylic enamel" the same as "synthetic" enamel? What did you do for a paint booth?

jim

--------------------
Just a clown

tlutzi Verified Driver
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Synthetic & acrylic enamels are completely different,synthetic is alkyd based ,slow drying,sticky,smelly not an easy product to use, replaced by acetate based acrylics in the late 60's early 70's which were more user friendly ,quicker dry

Jim Boemler Verified Driver
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Thanks! I've had some amazingly good results with plain-old Rustoleum rattle cans, with careful (but admittedly ignorant) prep. But of course I have no idea what I'm doing, and what the trade-offs are. Happy to learn a few tidbits.

jim

--------------------
Just a clown

Little Bill Verified Driver
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The first few cars I painted street or race I used a single stage paint. My last paint job done on my latest SM is the first time I ever used a 2 stage paint. I WILL NEVERV USE SINGLE STAGE EVER AGAIN. Did I stutter? First off you would have to be an idiot to run the base coat of a 2 stage paint it is dry dry dry in about 7 minutes max. not a chance of that wiht single stage. Get a scuff on your clear coat and buff it out no damage to the color, maybe some scratches in the clear but those are easy to fix if you are anal.

As soon as I figure oiut how to I will post a pic or two of my car

Jim Boemler Verified Driver
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In the meantime can you illuminate "single-stage" versus "two-stage"? It sounds like there's a lot more to it than just putting on a clear coat. Would love to hear more details.

jim

--------------------
Just a clown

Ken Tubbs Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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With single stage you just spray the color coat; no clear coat required. With a basecoat/clearcoat system the color coat gets a clear on top of it.

I'm by no means an expert in all of this but it sounds like Little Bill is. Silly me I just listened to the paint experts at the local PPG store as I figured they might know a thing or two since that is all they do.

As for a paint booth you know that cheapo canopy you've helped me struggle with at the track? Well it's kind a light red inside now. I put a canvas tarp down, the canopy up, and made walls with clear plastic. I also wet everything down real good with a garden sprayer.

Unfortunately it IS red as I was just doing the front two fenders. However, it is a different red than the rest of the car [Smile]

Little Bill Verified Driver
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Ken is right,

Through chemical process single stage paint is a single application process. After prepping the car I shoot a coat of sealer. Its purpous is to seal the primer and ensure that the entire car is one color as differences in primer color will lead to a difference in the top coat (color) Once the sealer has been applied you have a limited amount of time to get the top coat applied or you will have to scuff the sealer in order to assure adhesion to the sealer by the top coat.

Single stage paints have the gloss agents in them and when they cure you are left with a glossy finish the pigment of the paint is exposed. Also if you wish to add additional coats you must wait until the first coat is curred properly then wet sand and then shoot 2nd coat of color. This is a pain in the ass and very time consuming when shooting multiple colors. Single stage paint takes quite a while to cure. How long exactly im not sure because I alway shot single colors only, when painting single stage. Paint, clean up, come back the next day and untape car. But I know from my past experiences that single stage paint was still wet (read not even tacky 30 minutes later).

2 stage, or base coat, clear coat starts the same way. After sealing you have limited time to apply the base coat. After each coat you have roughly 6 hours to put next coat on or product will be curred to a point where you need to sand to assure adhesion. initial coat is dry to the point of being able to tape for next color within 15 minutes, although, I waited 30. Shoot next color then wait, tape of then shoot next color. You get the idea. The point is you need to do nothing in between colors when using base coat clear coat as long as the next coat is applied within the proper time frame. Remember base coat only has about 10% gloss agents so the paint looks really dull.

After last base coat wait 30 minutes then apply first coat of clear. Wait 30 minutes but not more than 6 and apply last coat of clear this coat is mixed differently and requires more time to dry. As I found the most care must be taken when applying this final coat as it is really the only coat susceptable of running. You will be in shock at how the color jumps off the car when you hit it with the top coats.

I painted my car start to finish in 6 hours. Thats 3 colors and 2 coats of clear

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Bill Hingston
SM#03
RM_Div

Little Bill Verified Driver
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Check Out SMUG shots for a couple of pics of my finished project

--------------------
Bill Hingston
SM#03
RM_Div

bc88 Verified Driver
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I have painted a few Miatas and Single stage is the only way to go. I use about one quart of paint for the entire car, $40.00. Two coats is more than enough. Remember more paint more wieght and more time and money. When the car is ready to go it takes about 20 min. Wipe it down, tack it, spray first coat then come back and spray the second coat, done. Car is ready to come out of the booth in about an hour. I use PPG paints. Remember it's a race car. Ask Jim B. how his fender looks. Bob.

Jim Boemler Verified Driver
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Oh, so you're "that" Bob! [Smile]

Yes guys, Bob's work turned out just fine for me. Wish the rest of the car looked as good.

jim

--------------------
Just a clown

Jim Boemler Verified Driver
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Bill, the process you describe may be "faster" in elapsed time, but it sounds like quite a bit of serious choreography for a plodding hack like me. I'm not surprised that the results would be glorious, and I'd certainly think about doing a showy street car that way. For the race car, Bob's technique seems more practical. Just my uneducated impressions.

jim

--------------------
Just a clown

Mark Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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I've got to agree with Bob on this one. We painted my car inside and out, 2 coats, in about 2 hours max with single stage PPG paint. Maybe less. That was 2 years ago and the car still looks awesome. We just recently completed another SM (see classifieds for pictures) that came out awesome as well. Bob paints vintage shelby mustangs, cobras, and the like for a living. He knows his business.

Mark

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Mark
http://www.ironcanyonmotorsports.com

Ken Tubbs Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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quote:
Originally posted by Little Bill:
Single stage paints have the gloss agents in them and when they cure you are left with a glossy finish the pigment of the paint is exposed. Also if you wish to add additional coats you must wait until the first coat is curred properly then wet sand and then shoot 2nd coat of color. This is a pain in the ass and very time consuming when shooting multiple colors. Single stage paint takes quite a while to cure. How long exactly im not sure because I alway shot single colors only, when painting single stage. Paint, clean up, come back the next day and untape car. But I know from my past experiences that single stage paint was still wet (read not even tacky 30 minutes later).

I just wanted clarify something. When shooting single color with single stage paint you don't have to wait long to apply the next coat. I waited about 10 minutes between coats. Here is what the PPG Product Sheet has for dry times for their MTK Acrylic Urethane:

Between coats: 5-10 minutes at 70F
Air Dry:
Dist: 45 min
Tack: 3 to 5 hours
Tape: 12 hours
Dry: 16 hours at 70F to polish and put into service.
Clear: 4-6 hours (clear is optional)

Little Bill Verified Driver
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I should have said second color. Take a look 12 hours to tape. I had to tape twice so now Im looking at 24 hours plus prep for next color. I did 3 colors and both clears in 6 hours. But to each his own.

Tack in 3 to 5 hours, no thanks but thats just me.

Careful putting as second coat on a wet coat you can create runs very quickly if you don't know what you are doing.

By the way Bob what do you shoot on those vintage cars? single stage or base coat clear coat

My preference is 2 stage. Doesn't make it right or wrong just what I like.

--------------------
Bill Hingston
SM#03
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bc88 Verified Driver
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Bill, Now your talking lot's of time. When I paint a Shelby, I seal the car first wait about half an hour then apply a base coat of Blue just on the area where the stripes will go. Let that dry about half an hour and then tape off for the stripes. That can take about 4 to 6 hours to measure and mask off. Then I come back and paint the White in a base coat, let that dry for a while and then unmask the Blue and tack the car again making sure that there is not any Blue overspray on the White and apply 4 coats of clear. This is done over a two day period. Then another 6 to 8 hours to color sand and polish and it is done. If it comes out right you cannot feel the line between the Blue and White colors. This is in addition to sanding and masking the car first, another 6 to 8 hours.

Now you see why I like to paint Miatas single stage.

Bill if you want to paint different colors on the same car use a base coat and wait half an hour to mask for the next color then clear over everything. I use PPG DBC base coat.

Bob.

Mike C Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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I have painted about a dozen Miata's in my barn. Prep helps the final product look better. I AM NO EXPERT! I just keep trying to make the last car better than the one before that. I am down to about a 10 footer. They all look great at 60 mph. I use single stage (centari)paint and only paint the cars one color. White is the easiest, and metallic is a b!tch.

--------------------
Mike Collins
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ALL OPINIONS ON RULES OR SPECIFICATIONS ARE JUST THAT, MY OPINIONS!

philndz Verified Driver
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Whats the best or most anal prep you can do?

mazrcr Verified Driver
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actually prepping the car for paint is the most important item when painting,, a good sanding and tape and masking. a good wet sanding paper, tack cloth, ect.

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senior miata racer

Bryan12 Verified Driver
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I'm getting ready to Paint Our Spec Miata that
we are building. I sell PPG and Omni paint in
Our store and I'm just going to use a single
stage acrylic enamal. It keeps the cost down
and it makes for easier repair when those on
track battle scars occur.

Jerry Cabe Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Any advice/opinions on painting Miata bumper covers? Any special prep, primer, or paint? I believe it is common to use a flex agent in bumper paints, but I have no experience with it.

[help] Jerry

--------------------
Just driving SM until the F-1 car is ready.

Dwayne Hoover Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Jerry, I heard the secret recipe was this:

1. Sand at least down to the original baked-on color coat. If you have coats of respray already on the car and want to save some sanding time, SEM brand "Bumper Stripper" will take it off without hurting the urethane.
2. Prime with SEM brand flexible primer (available in rattle cans)
3. Paint using a normal, or up to 20% greater than normal, amount of flex agent.
4. If you use too much flex agent, it will be too soft and difficult to clean.

I haven't tried any of this myself, it is just collected wisdom from those that have frequently repainted their SMs.

Good luck.

--------------------
Visit the Midland City Arts Festival!

Ron V Verified Driver
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And in the really far from Pro painter catagory:

Here's a trick that I just learned. You know the buildup that happens around the rubber window molding? Well, take some cord or twine and stuff it under the molding to raise it off the body. Then sand under it. Tape and shoot. No buildup.

Gonna try it this weekend. I'm shooting a single stage Nason 2K. It's a racecar for heavens sake! [banghead]

Ron V Verified Driver
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I need some advice on prep sanding. I sanded all the old paint off down to the metal/primer. Shot the car with epoxy (non-etching) primer, and then sanded with 220. I had to wait several days for my turn in the paint booth, so I sanded it with 400. It's as smooth as a baby's butt.

Did I over sand? Will the paint stick? We have a lot of paint swappin' in the SE. :-)

I'm shooting single stage Nason 2K. This is only the second car we painted.

Thanks.

--------------------
Ron V.

SM #99 Was Screaming Yellow, Now Frost White

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Ron, you know it dont mater down hear in the south. one race weekend and the car is a difrent color any how.

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NO MO MONEY RACING

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Weekend Warrior Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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quote:
Originally posted by Mike C:
I have painted about a dozen Miata's in my barn. Prep helps the final product look better. I AM NO EXPERT! I just keep trying to make the last car better than the one before that. I am down to about a 10 footer. They all look great at 60 mph. I use single stage (centari)paint and only paint the cars one color. White is the easiest, and metallic is a b!tch.

Mike, do you do anything special for the bumper? Also what brand and color did you use on "Earl" as I will need to re-paint I think, (the same color) due to marks and scratches.

--------------------
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Mike C Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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I do not do anything special to the bumpers. I use a less little hardener than reccomended on the entire car. Earl is GM white from Mattos. I use Centari paint with reducer for what ever temp I am painting in, they have warm, mid and low. I use more reducer than reccomended, I foend it flows a little better throught the gun that way. I sand all of the cars to 220 wet. I am going to try 400 on a few cars this year.

--------------------
Mike Collins
MEATHEAD Racing
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The MEATHEAD Racing 2010 Calendar is up!!!!
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ALL OPINIONS ON RULES OR SPECIFICATIONS ARE JUST THAT, MY OPINIONS!

Blake Thompson Verified Driver
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i would not recommend sanding through the primer to bare metal if you can avoid it. the only reason to do this is to get out rust. Cars are treated at the factory with rust inhibitors and other chemicals that you won't be able to do in your garage.

my SO is a chemist, she doesnt recommend acrylics. they tend to be very brittle and not recommendable for the types of activities we are involved with. We use a 2 part catalyst/colour urethane on our cars:

 -

http://beatracing.com/gallery/album42


next year it will experience much more prep, much more time expenditure and clear coat over the finished vinyl. we rushed this year and the finished product isn't up to my standards, though it was quite resilient even after a few off track and on street encounters. An suv hit the front before the paint was even dry. while it did scuff, it didnt crack off, something acrylic would most certainly do.

--------------------
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Bernard Verified Driver
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I painted about 100 cars as a "hobby" when I was in my 20s, and learned a lot along the way. Utilizing my experience, here's how I do it today, in 3 easy steps:

1) Take off bumper cover, as you do not want to paint it while on the car, no matter how shitty your car is already. (That's the perfect opportuntiy, by the way, to clean in corners you haven't cleaned before.)

2) Drop bumper cover off at paint shop. Give painter the paint information and a $50 bill (for labor; materials you have to buy anyway). Say: "Call me when it's done."

3) Pick up nicely painted, colorsanded, and buffed bumper cover a day or two later, hand wax and mount on car.

No need to buy a paint gun. No fucking around with color matching, hazardous materials, leftovers, and no what the hell else. Fifty bucks well spent!

--------------------
Bernard
World's Tallest Ex SM Pilot

Blake Thompson Verified Driver
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i donno of anyone in the crappy economy of wisconsin that would paint a bumper cover for $200 much less $50...

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Jon Hummer Verified Driver Made Donation to Website Series Champ
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[soapbox] [soapbox] [soapbox] [soapbox] [butthead]

--------------------
Jon Hummer
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"Lead, Follow, or Get outta the way!"

Blake Thompson Verified Driver
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whoah i made the mistake of showing this thread to my SO. (PPG is a curse word around her). She had multiple acronyms for comments - the most of which I will spare.

one important thing i might mention is that she states MOST companies use a "chromate based pretreatment"

in other words:

"not to mention, they are sanding down to chromate, which is highly highly carcinogenic -
(Chromate is) the best thing out there, except for all the serious health problems it causes"

yet another reason not to sand to bare metal.

--------------------
http://btdtracing.com - YOUR Miata Parts Pimp

Bernard Verified Driver
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quote:
Originally posted by thefirebuilds:
i donno of anyone in the crappy economy of wisconsin that would paint a bumper cover for $200 much less $50...

Well, at least you get cheese cheap.

Here in SoCal, a Mexican slave does the sanding and prep work, about 1.5 hours at $10 per hour, then the master shoots the cover. That doesn't take long, about 1 thin and 2 thick coats, all within half an hour, of which he only actually paints for about 6 minutes max. So that's $70 per hour, for really easy work.

Add to this the price for materials, and you are indeed in the $100 neighborhood (assuming we do single stage). But if you do the work yourself, you have to buy the materials anyway. Bottomline remains, for $50 you can save yourself the headache, the time, the dirty hands, the cleanup, and bang your pony instead. A no brainer in my book . . .

--------------------
Bernard
World's Tallest Ex SM Pilot

Blake Thompson Verified Driver
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actually i believe wisconsin has the second largest mexican population in the country, but that is neither here nor there. i took a set of mirrors in once and the body shop got 250 for the pair. i thought it was rape, but after doing the work they earn what they get.

--------------------
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jason dave Verified Driver Made Donation to Website Series Champ
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There are drawbacks to both single stage and basecoat/clearcoat applications. I use only PPG for several reasons, one of which is that they sell a cheaper version of itself under the name "Omni". The coverage of the Omni basecoat is not as good as the mid level Deltron DBC series. I shoot my cars and motorcycles with DBC, then, depending on its final use (race, street, or show) use either the Omni clear, the mid level DCD 35 clear, or the high end Global clear. To me the benefit of two stage is that you can use a high speed catalyst (DFX-11) in the clear. This enables the user to paint, cut, buff AND install in the same day. The downside is that the final product is more brittle than using a standard catalyst. Also, you cannot colorsand pearl or metalic single stage, as it will muddy the colors.

I've been painting for about 12 years, if anyone wants some questions answered, pm me.

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"Wide open till ya see god, then brake!"

DaveC Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Along similar lines, when prepping the car are you just sanding through any vinyl (i.e. numbers, decals, or stripes) or removing them first? I remember someone mentioning something about a special sanding disk that works well, but I can't remember who told me about it and what they called it.

Thanks,

--------------------
Dave Cox

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There is a rubber eraser wheel that works well. You can also use liquid adhesive remover. I get mine from the shop that does the vinyl graphics for us. Also a hair dryer or heat gun, used carefully will remove them pretty easily. Sanding through them would be used, like, never.
wheel

DaveC Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
...

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That is exactly what I was looking for, wheel Thanks.

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Dave Cox

mazrcr Verified Driver
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posted 12-28-2005 08:35 PM

quote:



"Here in SoCal, a Mexican slave does the sanding and prep work, about 1.5 hours at $10 per hour "

a remark that could have been left out

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senior miata racer

Subdued Verified Driver
NCW

Region: NWR/OR
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Year : Was a '99
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quote:
Originally posted by Ken Tubbs:
[QB] I just went through this and decided on an acrylic urethane single stage from PPG (MTK product code). It's single stage so it's a bit simpler to apply, urethanes are really tough and flexible so it was recommended for race car use,QB]

I thought I read acrylic urethanes are more caustic than acrylic enamels. Is it advisable to shoot urethane with just a charcoal cartridge respirator?

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Ed

jason dave Verified Driver Made Donation to Website Series Champ
The one your parents warned you about

Region: s. pacific
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Year : 1990
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If you only plan on doing the one car, go for it. It's only when you do it often, or for a living that you need a high quality respirator. I've shot cars outside without any, and while not advisable, it can be done. If you start feeling light headed, STOP!!

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"Wide open till ya see god, then brake!"

Reid A
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Good thread, learning alot from you all. I'm considering doing the paint myself on my next build.
How 'bout some recommendations & advice on the equipment you guys are using? Spray guns, what types, air filters?

- Reid

Blake Thompson Verified Driver
Now The Fastest "Blake" in Spec Miata

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Year : 1991
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advice: you get what you pay for.

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http://btdtracing.com - YOUR Miata Parts Pimp

jason dave Verified Driver Made Donation to Website Series Champ
The one your parents warned you about

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Reid,

Here are some basic guidlines for painting your car. For paint, I use PPG. As for equipment, that is a little tougher. Don't waste your time with shitty paint guns that places like Harbor Freight or Home Depot sells. If you plan on doing this more than a couple times, and you have the cash, De Vilbiss, Sata, Binks or Iwatta have great guns. You will need a compressor that has at least a 60 gallon capacity. Any smaller, and it won't be able to keep up. You will also need proper filtration from the compressor to the gun, as small amounts of water and oil are always present in compressed air. Lastly, a good pressure regulator AT THE GUN is needed to keep consistant pressure. This is in addition to the regulator that the compressor already has. Finally, a good clean place to spray. A garage can work, if you empty it, cover the walls and ceiling, (all that compressed air being sprayed will dislodge all kinds of dirt/dust/crap) and wet the floor just before you spray. You should also set up a fan in a window to vent the fumes.

You can also spray outside, but I don't recommend it, as there is too much shit in the air. Also, if you shoot single stage, or a clear without an accelerator catalyst, it will take too long to dry before it will be hard enough for contaminants harm it.

If you still want to tackle this yourself, let me know on this thread, and I will make up a list of products that I think are right for you. Good luck!

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"Wide open till ya see god, then brake!"

steveracer Verified Driver
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Region: Detroit
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Year : 1990 1.6
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quote:
Originally posted by jason dave:
If you only plan on doing the one car, go for it. It's only when you do it often, or for a living that you need a high quality respirator. I've shot cars outside without any, and while not advisable, it can be done. If you start feeling light headed, STOP!!

[Frown]
I recommend the respirator at all times. While all people are different, When you get older, your quality of life will be finer.

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"To punish me for my contempt for authority, fate made me an authority myself"

Albert Einstein

Subdued Verified Driver
NCW

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quote:
Originally posted by steveracer:
[Frown]
I recommend the respirator at all times. While all people are different, When you get older, your quality of life will be finer.

As it turns out a disposable respirator (3M) with organic filters can be had for about $20 at most paint shops. Compared to the hours I put in to prepping my cage for paint the respirator was almost free.

jwarren Verified Driver
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Region: NNJ
Car #: 51
Year : 1991
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i got a single stage from maaco for $220. did the whole car. it seems to be standing up pretty well, just be careful if you get hit somewhere because it'll chip pretty easily. check out pics on http://www.ridgespeedracing.com

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Ridgespeed Racing

#51 J. Andrew Warren

http://www.ridgespeedracing.com

smtejas Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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bump

 
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