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Author Topic: ITA vs. SM
jim kettelkamp
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opinions requested: I've seen a couple ITA cars in the classifieds here and I like the idea of the 40 hp over stock motor. I'm planning to do some HPDE's w/ whatever I get so the extra hp would be welcome there. We have big ITA fields here in the midwest (bigger than SM). Is the Miata competitive in ITA w/ 40 more hp? Any input appreciated. Thanks!

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In my region, at least 2 of the top 3 in ITA season points were driving a pure SM. I would say a 150+ hp Miata would make a VERY competitive ITA car. I'd be a bit skeptical how they added 40 ponies though.

--------------------
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Jim you can be a world beater with 40 more horses. For MidDIV you will need a good "A" car to do well these days. The competition has elevated in the past couple of years. Right now "A" is the fun place to race.

--------------------
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All depends on how much seat time you want, and what kind of competition you want. Most seat time would be to get a car that is SM compliant and simply race it in ITA and maybe even SSM if your region has it. 3 race groups is a lot of time on the track with a car that can be competitive (maybe not top 3) in each class.

If you want to be #1 in a specific class then you probably need a dedicated car to the utmost spec of that particular class. Otherwise there are always trade-offs.

ITA is a regional class, SM is a national/regional class, SSM is a regional class. Life is full of options. In SM/SSM it is interesting to race cars that are very close in spec. ITA is cool since you do get to compete against different vehicles that are supposed to run similar lap times but have different strengths/ weaknesses.

--------------------
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quote:
Right now "A" is the fun place to race.
I heard that!

Hmmmmmmmmmmm

Colin MacLean Verified Driver
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quote:
Originally posted by jim kettelkamp:
opinions requested: I've seen a couple ITA cars in the classifieds here and I like the idea of the 40 hp over stock motor.

Please be aware that is not 40 HP over stock it's referring to the 40 overbore pistons that are legal in ITA. ITA Miatas make nowhere near 40hp over top-flight SM's. My ITA Miata with a reasonably well built engine made about the same as a pro-built SM. Only difference was my motor was 2K and not 7K. My motor made 121/111 which at the time I thought was a lot but apparently not! The worst part is, when I ran in SM the car had 15hp less!

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Colin MacLean
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Todd Greene Made Donation to Website
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Just curious... With ITA allowances of overboring, header and open ECU rules, how much HP could an ITA Miata gain over SM? especially a restricted 1.8?

Todd

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Andy Bettencourt has one so he can give you a real number but my best guess is that a no-excuses 1.8 ITA Miata is close to 140HP.

There are restricted 1.8 SM's around 125HP.

--------------------
"Your victory is tainted! Asterisk! Asterisk!!!"--Lisa Simpson

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Talk to Mike at ISC. He runs some of the fastest ITA, ITS Miatas in the Southeast.
http://www.iscracing.net/

Here in Florida the Nissan Sentras are very fast.

--------------------
Paul McLester

tyler raatz
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quote:
Originally posted by Antonio Garza:
Andy Bettencourt has one so he can give you a real number but my best guess is that a no-excuses 1.8 ITA Miata is close to 140HP.

There are restricted 1.8 SM's around 125HP.

Should be a bit over 140whp with a proper .040 over engine, .5 point compression, header, intake, port matching, 2.5" exhaust and a properly tuned programmable ECU. [Wink]

Our new ITA 1.8 miata is still a work in progress, I will gladly post dyno sheets when we finish if anyone would like.

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The gains are not as large as you think. Expect 130-135. Anything north of that and you are fortunate. I kept thinking 145 when I first went ITA...uh not so much. Jerry at DIY can get about as much as can be had over there around Hotlanta.

--------------------
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I would be shocked if you can only do better than 5-10HP over a restricted 1.8 SM Mac. Stop listening to Andy. [Smile]

--------------------
"Your victory is tainted! Asterisk! Asterisk!!!"--Lisa Simpson

Cliffy Chains
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quote:
Originally posted by Antonio Garza:
I would be shocked if you can only do better than 5-10HP over a restricted 1.8 SM Mac. Stop listening to Andy. [Smile]

Most ITA Miata's in top IT form have about 15-20HP on a national level SM. Usually I don't see much lap time difference, because the competition level is different in ITA. SM will run just as fast if not faster. Maybe that is just here in Florida [fight]

--------------------
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tyler raatz
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A top ITA car is faster than SM by a pretty good bit based on lap records. The difference is in the field of cars, the pointy end of the field is very limited in ITA, in SM it is quite broad.
The a cars can go faster, but they dont always have the competition to warrant it.

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quote:
Originally posted by tyler raatz:
A top ITA car is faster than SM by a pretty good bit based on lap records. The difference is in the field of cars, the pointy end of the field is very limited in ITA, in SM it is quite broad.
The a cars can go faster, but they dont always have the competition to warrant it.

Also, the SM cars run in a train which as we all know adds 1+ seconds to the fastest lap times and really moves the group along.

--------------------
Colin MacLean
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Andy Bettencourt Verified Driver
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On the same dyno, we are seeing about 15whp more from the ITA motor. Max effort, no money spared. Difference is in the curve. Fat as a mother-fer. As you guys know, header does nothing, intake is a couple, internals are a few, ECU is the wad. Mine is 133whp on a DynaPak where our top 1.8's run around 118whp.

I have Gorriaran in my region and the ITA lap times are quite a bit quicker than SM's.

--------------------
Andy Bettencourt
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T.J. Kearney Verified Driver
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Andy,

SM head (pre 2010 rules) vs. IT head w/overbore?

Really only a few HP?

--------------------
Tom Kearney
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Andy Bettencourt Verified Driver
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Yup. The Mazda's don't respond well to the 'mechanical' pieces of the upgrades that other manufacturers do. Ports are small, compression bump is nice but the 1.8 cams are soft as we know. Mine is only a .020 overbore (MC pistons were $50 each, .040's were WAY more).

Its actually weird math. Stock 1.8's make around 100-105 whp which tells me there were over rated from the factory. Do the SM stuff to them, bring them into spec and you get a nice bump. But going from SM numbers to IT numbers is the wrong path to take.

Ask anyone who has done it. One reason SM's run quicker than on paper is that they draft as a rule. Doesn't happen in IT all that much.

--------------------
Andy Bettencourt
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quote:
Originally posted by Andy Bettencourt:
I have Gorriaran in my region and the ITA lap times are quite a bit quicker than SM's.

Just to throw a wrench into an argument I have absolutely no actual interest in ...

... I beg to differ.

WGI ITA 2:17.900 SM 2:17.876 SM is faster
Thunderbolt ITA 1:35.890 SM 1:35.754 .1

On average the gaps are about half a second. Interestingly Steve G has the lap record at "only" 5 out of 11 tracks.

Even at the tracks with the greatest gaps, ITA is only about one second faster than SM.

guest driver
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quote:
Originally posted by Andy Bettencourt:
I have Gorriaran in my region and the ITA lap times are quite a bit quicker than SM's. [/QB]

true dat ...the 15 extra hp for the ITA may only be worth a second but the real lap time gain is in the rear gear, shocks, springs, hoosiers, etc ...
gotta spend bucks on handling to go fast ... and drive well.
In ITS ; witness von c in Mike's ITS '99 Miata - he turned a 31 at Sebring 5 weeks ago vs SM '99's turning 37's - (six seconds a lap with no draft). BTW - both were new track records.

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quote:
Originally posted by disquek:
quote:
Originally posted by Andy Bettencourt:
I have Gorriaran in my region and the ITA lap times are quite a bit quicker than SM's.

Just to throw a wrench into an argument I have absolutely no actual interest in ...

... I beg to differ.

WGI ITA 2:17.900 SM 2:17.876 SM is faster
Thunderbolt ITA 1:35.890 SM 1:35.754 .1

On average the gaps are about half a second. Interestingly Steve G has the lap record at "only" 5 out of 11 tracks.

Even at the tracks with the greatest gaps, ITA is only about one second faster than SM.

I have only been on WGI once Kyle and never driven at Thunderbolt. My NHMS record is almost 2 seconds better and my LRP times are 1.5 seconds better. And you know how short those tracks are. Pocono is faster, etc.

--------------------
Andy Bettencourt
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quote:
Originally posted by guest driver:

In ITS ; witness von c in Mike's ITS '99 Miata - he turned a 31 at Sebring 5 weeks ago vs SM '99's turning 37's - (six seconds a lap with no draft). BTW - both were new track records. [/QB]

That's a little apples and oranges. ITS car vs SM...

--------------------
Andy Bettencourt
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guest driver
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quote:
Originally posted by Andy Bettencourt:
quote:
Originally posted by guest driver:

In ITS ; witness von c in Mike's ITS '99 Miata - he turned a 31 at Sebring 5 weeks ago vs SM '99's turning 37's - (six seconds a lap with no draft). BTW - both were new track records.

That's a little apples and oranges. ITS car vs SM... [/QB]
whaddup ... 130 hp vs 150 hp ?? similar spread -
gearing, chassis, suspension & tires provides the main components in that six second spread ...
but yes, apples to tasmanian tangerines, same as ITA car [Smile]

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quote:
Originally posted by Andy Bettencourt:
I have only been on WGI once Kyle and never driven at Thunderbolt. My NHMS record is almost 2 seconds better and my LRP times are 1.5 seconds better. And you know how short those tracks are. Pocono is faster, etc.

Assuming this is correct:
http://www.nescca.com/nescca_main/trackrecords.html

I hope you drive better than you do math.

LRP: ITA 61.453 SM 62.135 .6 seconds
NHMS: ITA: 01:15.318 SM 01:16.344 1 second
Pocono: ITA 1:52.577 SM 1:54.551 2 seconds

-Kyle

Andy Bettencourt Verified Driver
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LRP should be 1:00.8

But you get the picture. Those are short tracks. ITA is faster than SM in the Northeast as a rule - even with the best SM driver in the country here. The IT cars are simply faster - because they are SUPPOSED to be! And IT cars don't draft...worth how much at a huge track? A chunk.

--------------------
Andy Bettencourt
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quote:
Originally posted by guest driver:
whaddup ... 130 hp vs 150 hp ?? similar spread -
gearing, chassis, suspension & tires provides the main components in that six second spread ...
but yes, apples to tasmanian tangerines, same as ITA car [Smile]

Try 125hp to 160hp.

--------------------
Andy Bettencourt
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disquek Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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quote:
Originally posted by tyler raatz:
A top ITA car is faster than SM by a pretty good bit based on lap records. The difference is in the field of cars, the pointy end of the field is very limited in ITA, in SM it is quite broad.
The a cars can go faster, but they dont always have the competition to warrant it.

Andy,
Tyler is saying what I'm thinking.

You say your motor is no expense spared. But do you think the top spender in ITA has spent a dime for every dollar Steve has spent on motor?

-Kyle

Andy Bettencourt Verified Driver
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I have no idea what you are saying Kyle. But I do believe that Tyler is correct. The talent in SM is deeper than any IT class. Popular classes attract more drivers. More drivers = bigger number of talented drivers.

Is it BETTER at the top? Debateable.

--------------------
Andy Bettencourt
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What I'm saying is simple. You made the point that ITA cars were way faster despite Steve G.

My point is that ITA cars are only slightly faster, and occasionally slower.

I'll skip the "why" debate.

-Kyle

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I guess we could debate 'slightly'. Whatever.

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Andy Bettencourt
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quote:
Originally posted by disquek:
quote:
Originally posted by tyler raatz:
A top ITA car is faster than SM by a pretty good bit based on lap records. The difference is in the field of cars, the pointy end of the field is very limited in ITA, in SM it is quite broad.
The a cars can go faster, but they dont always have the competition to warrant it.

Andy,
Tyler is saying what I'm thinking.

You say your motor is no expense spared. But do you think the top spender in ITA has spent a dime for every dollar Steve has spent on motor?

-Kyle

To echo Andy's thought...."What we have heah is a failure to communicate".....LOL

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Is this kind of like Aliens VS Predators?.....LOL

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quote:
Originally posted by Andy Bettencourt:
I guess we could debate 'slightly'.

I agree that ITA is a faster class than SM. An ITA build is a superset of an SM build.

I feel that (no offence to you, you've done what it takes to win) ITA cars are not as fully developed as FP or SM cars at the pointy end. So maybe if the same level of prep were applied to an ITA car, it would be "significantly" faster than an SM. Steve G makes this point with his record at WGI.

FP miatas are "significantly faster" than both ITA and SM cars. The lap records here in the NE are around 2 seconds a minute better and the FP champions are not from the NE (yet).

-Kyle

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Check out SFR results from 2009 and lap times.ITA Miata 2-3 seconds faster at T/hill,Laguna and Infineon

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I am not sure you know what is in the top ITA cars in this area. But anyway, what people forget ALL THE TIME is that comparing lap times tough. SM's all enter the corner together, leave together and draft. IT cars do not. Not one other make or model does what my car does. If I had 2 other ITA Miata's to draft with during a race, lap times would be much lower.

--------------------
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I hear ya Andy.

I think you're making my point. If more ITA cars were fully developed, they'd run closer together and their lap times would drop as a result.

I'll ask Brad to step it up and punch a hole in the air for ya. He was just looking for a reason anyway. ;0

Isn't the silly season great!

-Kyle

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quote:
Originally posted by disquek:
I hear ya Andy.

I think you're making my point. If more ITA cars were fully developed, they'd run closer together and their lap times would drop as a result.

I'll ask Brad to step it up and punch a hole in the air for ya. He was just looking for a reason anyway. ;0

Isn't the silly season great!

-Kyle

Brad does punch a hole for me...but it's usually only once a race... [Smile]

I disagree on the develpment front. Since the cars in ITA (or any IT class) are so different, we can't run 'together' like SM's. My mid corner speed tends to be a touch quicker, my end-of-straight speed is a touch slower, my braking points are deeper and the point in which I apply throttle is different.

Point being that IT cars slow each other down in different ways when they race closely where SM's tend not to. So fast laps are done on 'your own' in IT...not so in SM.

--------------------
Andy Bettencourt
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So Kyle, when are you going to sell that GTL car and build an ITA Miata? Rumor has it marriage has made you fat and you needed a car with removable body panels to get in and out.

I think Marc Cefalo's ITA Miata was only a tenth or two off Kevin Ruck at the ARRC. Kevin is a front runner in FP in a car that has less development time than his ITA car. So I think the prep is there.

The current FP National Champ is from the NeDiv. His lap record at the Glen is something like a 2.12.0

--------------------
-Bob Adams

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quote:
Originally posted by Monkeywrench:
So Kyle, when are you going to sell that GTL car and build an ITA Miata? Rumor has it marriage has made you fat and you needed a car with removable body panels to get in and out.

I think Marc Cefalo's ITA Miata was only a tenth or two off Kevin Ruck at the ARRC. Kevin is a front runner in FP in a car that has less development time than his ITA car. So I think the prep is there.

The current FP National Champ is from the NeDiv. His lap record at the Glen is something like a 2.12.0

Bobby, that's not rumor, it's fact. You've seen me. I'm fat and happy. Fortunately, you've avoided the women issue entirely, so you'll stay skinny! [Wink]

Unfortunatly the GTL is much harder to exit than an SM, ITA miata, or FP miata. As I recall, the last time you sat in it, I had to help you get out.

Current FP champion is from NEDiv? "ELKHART LAKE, Wis. (Sept. 25, 2009) Mark Carpenter, of Charlotte, N.C., came from sixth on the grid to take his first F Production National Championship at the 2009 SCCA National Championship Runoffs. Defending FP Champion Rick Harris, of Derby, Kan., and Eric Prill, of Topeka, Kan., completed the podium at Road America."

-Kyle

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Andy, I am trying to get my car up to yours so we can keep the Honda Nation behind us.

As I recall I was bumping you quite a bit at WGI to keep throwing you back in the fight.

I think you are right, the other car types have their strengths and weaknesses and we hold each other up.

--------------------
Steve

tyler raatz
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quote:
Originally posted by Andy Bettencourt:
I am not sure you know what is in the top ITA cars in this area. But anyway, what people forget ALL THE TIME is that comparing lap times tough. SM's all enter the corner together, leave together and draft. IT cars do not. Not one other make or model does what my car does. If I had 2 other ITA Miata's to draft with during a race, lap times would be much lower.

Andy, If the car turns out as well as it is looking, I would be honored to one of your ITA miata drafting partners at ARRC 2010. We need an all miata podium [Big Grin]

spec pinata
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quote:
Originally posted by Andy Bettencourt:
I am not sure you know what is in the top ITA cars in this area. But anyway, what people forget ALL THE TIME is that comparing lap times tough. SM's all enter the corner together, leave together and draft. IT cars do not. Not one other make or model does what my car does. If I had 2 other ITA Miata's to draft with during a race, lap times would be much lower.

Andy has to draft RX7's with no clutch or brakes in ITA at LRP which is a major disadvantage in building up speed....LOL.

Seriously, ITA in NER comes in so many flavors and speed differences that we don't have the "love train" of SM to jump on and really get a great draft!

Andy Bettencourt Verified Driver
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I did catch a draft off of a slow ITS RX-7 from the chicane to S/F at Pocono in 2007 in Qual. It was worth a FULL SECOND. Awesome.

--------------------
Andy Bettencourt
Flatout Motorsports
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planet-miata.com
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quote:
Originally posted by disquek:
quote:
Originally posted by Andy Bettencourt:
I have only been on WGI once Kyle and never driven at Thunderbolt. My NHMS record is almost 2 seconds better and my LRP times are 1.5 seconds better. And you know how short those tracks are. Pocono is faster, etc.

Assuming this is correct:
http://www.nescca.com/nescca_main/trackrecords.html

I hope you drive better than you do math.

LRP: ITA 61.453 SM 62.135 .6 seconds
NHMS: ITA: 01:15.318 SM 01:16.344 1 second
Pocono: ITA 1:52.577 SM 1:54.551 2 seconds

-Kyle

WGI is incorrect. 2:17.099ish

granted it's basically the same time as steve g. did the same weekend.


quote:
Originally posted by Andy Bettencourt:
quote:
Originally posted by disquek:
I hear ya Andy.

I think you're making my point. If more ITA cars were fully developed, they'd run closer together and their lap times would drop as a result.

I'll ask Brad to step it up and punch a hole in the air for ya. He was just looking for a reason anyway. ;0

Isn't the silly season great!

-Kyle

Brad does punch a hole for me...but it's usually only once a race... [Smile]

I disagree on the develpment front. Since the cars in ITA (or any IT class) are so different, we can't run 'together' like SM's. My mid corner speed tends to be a touch quicker, my end-of-straight speed is a touch slower, my braking points are deeper and the point in which I apply throttle is different.

Point being that IT cars slow each other down in different ways when they race closely where SM's tend not to. So fast laps are done on 'your own' in IT...not so in SM.

EXACTLY!

the hardest thing for me was to NOT drive my car like when it was an SM. in SM we're all on top of each other driving 1 million percent at the green. there is no "well i just hang back and get a run here or there". you do that in SM and you just lost positions while thinking about it.

in ita we handle better than most other cars out there. the nissan sentra and nx 2000's will always kill you down the straights but cannot get through a corner as well. the integras typically have about the same straight line speed but are usually not as fast through the corners.

the crx's can be very fast as the moser's have proved at mid ohio and the ARRC. they are probably the closest front drive chassis that needs to be driven like the miata. concentrate on the corners and make the thing 20 feet wide down the straights! [Big Grin]

quote:
Originally posted by Monkeywrench:


I think Marc Cefalo's ITA Miata was only a tenth or two off Kevin Ruck at the ARRC. Kevin is a front runner in FP in a car that has less development time than his ITA car. So I think the prep is there.


we were close to Ruck at the start but faded back as the race progressed. still finished 3rd for the 1st time there so no complaints here.

quote:
Originally posted by tyler raatz:
Andy, If the car turns out as well as it is looking, I would be honored to one of your ITA miata drafting partners at ARRC 2010. We need an all miata podium [Big Grin] [/QB]

game on!

quote:
Originally posted by Andy Bettencourt:
I did catch a draft off of a slow ITS RX-7 from the chicane to S/F at Pocono in 2007 in Qual. It was worth a FULL SECOND. Awesome.

same at WGI in sept. track record was set while behind Steve Ulfelder's green RX7.

too bad he got rid of it to be in ITR.

guess we'll see how well s2000's bump draft. [duck]

--------------------
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Marc Cefalo

#00 1996 ITA
#00 ???? SM

IPRESS Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Marc wheeled a helluva race at ARRC. He has a top 1.8 ITA Miata (one of the few in the country) and he can compete with the Honda / Acura / BMWs. As we have tried to explain over on the IT board, SM times and IT times don't transpose. The race is way different. And like I said before, I think if a Miata wins ITA at ARRC it will be with a another miata finishing second. As a few more do all out development in IT the chances get better.

--------------------
Mac Spikes
IPRESS Racing
MER
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"To hell with you Gen. Sheridan...I 'll take Texas!"

LOREN WALLACE IS MY HERO!

Kessler Engineering
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--------------------
Matt Kessler
Kessler Engineering
http://www.kesslerengineering.com/

jim kettelkamp
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wow! forgot I started this thread, thanks for the great responses! Looking for a SM legal car and may race both if time and cash allows. Thanks esp. for the clarification of "40 over".
now, anyone need a "lightly used" NSX (105 K miles)? How 'bout in trade for your SM, trailer and tow vehicle?

ExRoadRacer
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My ideal ITA Car Build sheet for a 1.6 NA

Xida coil over suspension from 949Racing
Front sway (not too large, maybe Flying Miata)
Rear Sway - none or OEM 1.6
OSGilken LSD with 4.87 gears
Solid or delrin Control arm bushes - eccentric
Racing Beat Header port matched per IT rules
.40 over and "regional" engine build
Something like a MegaSquirt, but I haven't looked at this yet due to odd wording of IT rules
Light weight 9 or 10lb 7x15 wheels
Hoosiers or 710's

OPtimized like most front running SM's are and driven by someone better than me, I can't think why a SpecMiata would have a chance.

Jacob Groves Verified Driver
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It wouldn't. ^^

--------------------
"This sticker is dangerous and inconvenient, but I do love Fig Newtons!"

hythloday
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The problem with a 1.6 is that even though you can record competitive lap times, you will get blown away at the start by virtually every other marque in the class. Then you get to spend the rest of the race passing these slower cars, and they don't normally just wave you by.
1.8s are a better choice, but they still get smoked at the start.

 
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