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Author Topic: lessons Learned from a Tragic Fire
Gatoratty Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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quote:
I really hope that we can learn something from this tragedy. Are there any details as to what actually happened? Pin or no pin, a driver should be able to get out of a burning car if there are no other issues. Fire bottle would be about the last thing on my mind, basically there to save the car not the driver. How did the fire get into the cockpit? Do we need to do a better job sealing the firewall? Did he get caught on something trying to get out? Would more emergency exit practice have helped? Did something melt preventing exit (door pull, etc)? Important questions for am important lesson for all of us.
I agree with Todd, Tom, and Jim (http://forum.specmiata.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?/topic/8/1142.html#000033) in their comments.

My own thoughts:
-Install a fire suppression system and make sure one of the nozzles is aimed at your body
-Pull the pin(s) and arm the system before going to the grid
-Make sure your driver safety equipment is the best you can afford and inspect it regularly for holes, wear points, etc.
-keep your visor down when on the track
-make sure your kill switch can be reached by you and the safety crews in the event your cockpit is engulfed in flames and smoke (it is hard for workers to reach into a burning car and activate the switch) an electric fuel pump that has been wired to bypass the interlocks will continue to feed the fire if the power can't be killed.
-Seal all holes in your firewall and driver compartment with steel and fire resistant sealant. Alum melts at about half the temp of steel.
-practice getting out of the car with your eyes closed and holding your breath. Seared lungs are responsible for more deaths than burned skin.
-time your evacuation and keep working at it until you can easily get out of the car when you are stressed, disoriented, and maybe hurt.
-SAVING THE CAR SHOULD NOT BE YOUR PRIMARY CONCERN allow the emergency response crews to worry about saving your car.
-carry a hand held extinguisher as well as an on-board system. A grass fire under your car can be put out quickly.
-try to stop your car near a corner station, but don't bother if getting out a few seconds quicker saves your life.

The GCR requirements for clothing, helmet, shoes, socks and other safety items are the minimum requirements. Just because you don't have facial hair doesn't mean you shouldn't wear a baraclava.

Please correct me if I am wrong or add your own [twocents]
[soapbox]

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Paul McLester

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A last minute tire change last weekend distracted me from finishing my checklist and I didn't pull the pins. Tech was obviously aware of Alan's tragedy, checked everyone's car after the qualifier and wrote me and several others up for this.

Needless to say, I won't forget to do this again soon.

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Muda Motorsports
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Mitch Reading Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Stupid question... ways to "check" your fire suppression system without actually setting it off?

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http://www.mitchum.ms

Keith in WA Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Paul,
All good points on protecting yourself.

Was the cause of the fire ever determined? Looking at the pictures, my thought was that it originated in the engine compartment suggesting a fuel leak.

On two separate occasions I've had fuel injector o-rings get crushed or nicked on installation. The leaks didn't appear immediately. It can slick down your tires and cause a crash with leaking fuel directly above a hot brake rotor.

The fuel evaporates very quickly and the leak dribbled down under the intake manifold making it very difficult to find. A very small nick in the o-ring is all it takes.

I think it would be wise to monitor fuel consumption very carefully for several sessions after installing the fuel rail to look for abnormally high fuel consumption. Also look for the leaks while the car is running and a fire extinguisher on hand since once the car sits for a while there will be no sign of a leak. It may take a while to materialize so checking once after replacing the fuel rail won't suffice.

--------------------
Keith Novak
(Will work for tires)

Kent Carter Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Mitch,

Actually, yes... kinda. I had a nice chat with the guys from Safecraft a couple of years ago. I don't have one of their systems, I have one from a competitor, however they were nice enough to tell me of a potential problem with my system and how to test it. I did and I have the updated version... no problem.

The Halon systems have a pointed spring-loaded plunger that cuts through a foil seal at the top of the bottle. When you pull the handle, the plunger is released if the safety pin is not blocking it.

What they instructed me to do was insert the safety pin, remove the plumbing, release the allen bolt that holds the release wire in, unscrew the head and inspect the plunger. If it is rusted, game over. If not, pull the safety pin and see if the plunger will snap outward forcefully (keep fingers clear, it's sharp). If not, game over. Also test the main pull handle to make sure its cable/wire moves freely.

A small block of wood and a good deal of pressure are needed to return the plunger to its position and you can slide the pin back in and reassemble the system.

This tests the release system and addresses a known issue with Halon systems: rusty plungers. The later models use stainless steel.

It's also worth inspecting the plumbing, too. I found a crack right at the bottle a couple of years ago. Not good.

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Do I turn my 99 Hard S into a killerfast SM or seek a donor?

jbenoit28 Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Maybe we can all attach a large Red Ribbon to our pins to help us remember?

What kind of fireproof materials can we use to seal up small bolt holes in our floor pan?

Joe

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What does this button do??

cam Verified Driver
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This discussion is going on in several different threads, would be great if a monitor could merge them so it would be easier to search on in the future. Either way, nice that this thread is in the Safety area.

Purpose of my post is to discuss cost effective solutions to avoid a repeat of the Daytona Tragedy.

(background information for future search purposes, note: I was not there and do not know the details. My account of the event is at best 2nd hand)
The recent tragedy at Daytona that had a Porsche 944 catch fire has really struck a cord with me. The driver (did not know him) suffer multiple burns. From what I致e read on this form and others is that most of the burns are steam related. Meaning, the flame did not get him, rather he was poached inside his sweaty fire suit. The steam part is speculation I read on another form, in any case, there were bad burns. Also, it was reported that the helmet shield was melted. There was a fire system in the car but apparently was never used, apparently the pin was not pulled out. The very sad news is that the driver passed away due to complication from his burn injuries, leaving his wife and children behind.

Pics of burnt car Link

This has made me rethink my current legal per SCCA and NASA GCR fire system via one hand held bottle. I recognize there this are risks in amateur racing and for me, the rewards far out weigh the risk. But of all the ways of dying (it is going to happen some day, hopefully not soon), I really do not want to be cooked to death. My previous thoughts of going with low cost and tech fire system is that fires rarely happen and if it did, I知 getting out and let the car burn. This recent example from Daytona had the car catch on fire while racing with no contact (that I know of), I read on another site that the fuel line either broke or had a large leak which caused the engine bay fire, and he drove off the track before getting out. It was still too late.

So I guess I知 in the market for a better remote armed fire system. A two nozzle system, one pointed towards the foot well area and the other in the engine bay next to the firewall and pointed towards the intake and fuel rail. The fuel tank is well protected already and closed off from the passenger compartment. I will keep the current hand held bottle. I致e seen other similar cars install the remote pull trigger along the trans tunnel close to the shifter but still out of the way. That location makes a lot of sense to me as I can easily reach it whilst strapped in. Since I知 already meeting the GCR requirements with the hand held, I知 doing this just for personal safety. With that in mind, a class B (flammable liquids) is my primary focus. Do not think I want to mess with a Halon system. But like the idea of the CO2 cartridge system that charges the system and can be recharged, like this example ( Link ). I think these are AFFF systems. ( Link ).

Is there a recommend system/kit or vendor? So far I致e found E.S.S, FireCharger, SPA and Safecraft. They all look around the same to me with similar price ranges for similar volume/size. I知 leaning towards the less expensive AFFF system if it performs the same. A local circle track vendor has a system for around $300. Recharge kits seem to cost around $50. A local vendor would be convenient to avoid Hazardous Material shipping charges. Local vendor link this is the same product that Pegasus carries. And of course SafeRacer carries both Halon and AFFF sytems.

Other actions I知 taking:
Inspect fuel line and replace if signs of age
Practice getting out of the car quickly

Related, are some helmet visors more fire/heat resistant than others? How can we ID the more heat resistant ones?

[ 08-26-2009, 03:43 PM: Message edited by: cam ]

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"The problem with Socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money."
~Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher
"A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have."
~Thomas Jefferson

Keith in WA Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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quote:
Originally posted by jbenoit28:
Maybe we can all attach a large Red Ribbon to our pins to help us remember?

What kind of fireproof materials can we use to seal up small bolt holes in our floor pan?

Joe

It's a good idea. I put a great big "REMOVE BEFORE FLIGHT" ribbon on the wire I use in my diagnostics box after leaving it in a few times. Red duct tape and a black magic marker does wonders.

I sealed up a lot of holes with roof flashing steel, glued with high temp RTV and then pop riveted them in place. It is a major pain though.

--------------------
Keith Novak
(Will work for tires)

Keith in WA Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Lexan helmet visors are the best I know of. They have a much higher melting point than most other clear plastics.

A reflective coating can help a lot to cut down the IR radiation. A smoked visor can help too but not as much as reflective.

--------------------
Keith Novak
(Will work for tires)

Wreckerboy Verified Driver
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There has been a lot of discussion about this on many different forums. Some of the better take-aways I've read not mentioned here:

1. Safety wire the pin for the fire system to the ignition key of the car. In other words, if the key is in the ignition, the pin cannot be in the bottle.

2. There seems to be some debate about the newer SCCA rules on fire suppression systems. I'm of the school that the hand held is fine for meeting the letter of the rules, but for keeping my arse out of the frying pan I am adding a remote system, which leads to:

2B. The fire system's role is to protect DRIVER, not the car. Accordingly, my new remote fire system will empty into a tube around the top of the rollcage with multiple holes pointing down at the driver. The suppression agent is heavier than air so it drops and pools, so the theory here (the idea was stolen from the factory Porsche 962s) is to create a curtain of reagent. (Giving credit where credit is due - this idea comes from Kirk Knetsis who incorporated in the build of his ITB VW.)

2C. MAKE SURE THAT THE PULL HANDLE FOR THE FIRE SYSTEM IS MOUNTED SOLIDLY AND ROBUSTLY!

One other thing gleaned from a really bad incident at T'hill a few years back where a IT7 and a GT-something car went head on:
One of the saddest (of many) parts of that incident was that the driver of the IT7 car apparently mounted the pull handle on the fire system in his car on some sort of flimsy material and the worker on the scene reached in to pull the release handle for the fire system and had it break off in his hand. This would seem to be one of those cases where overkill for the win is called for.

3. Practice, practice, practice. Practice getting out of the car with your eyes closed while holding your breath. Consider getting out of the car from either side as you never know if you will end up parked against the proverbial immovable object. Make your disconnect routine the same and use it every time you get out of the car to develop a sort of "muscle memory."

Since I do not not wish to risk tearing up my fire suit, I wear a pair of shop overalls in the garage drill along with my helmet. In my case the routine is:

A. Hit the master kill switch
B. Disconnect the ISAAC
C. Hit the harness release
D. Drop the window net
E. Pull the wheel
F. GTFO

--------------------
Rob Myles
Hero To The Momentum Impaired

Mitch Taylor
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Newbie here, How many have a pre grid saftey checklist, if someone has a cool one it would be good to post for use by all. ie, the pin, belts,net, etc, stickin it to the dash would be helpful.

Gatoratty Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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CAM

I haven't discussed the particulars of Alan's accident...because no one knows how or why the fire occurred (lots of guesses and speculation) or what actions Alan did or did not take before and during the ordeal. Only a forensic investigation will tell the tale. It did appear that a fuel line may have come loose which was directed toward the firewall on the passenger side. The electric fuel pump may have continued to pump fuel through out the fire. His face shield melted and his gloves were charred. The shield did not melt against his face. I don't know who came up with the "steamed" idea, but we were told at the hospital that his fingers were severely burned and his chest area was blistered from the heat not "steam". Try taking a blow torch to your driving glove with your hand inside....it won't be steam that makes you quit. Flame resistance does not prevent heat transfer or build up. The t-handle was pulled out about 12" and the pin was still in the top of the bottle.

He drove his car off of Nascar 4 and into the pit road with the cockpit engulfed in flames. Pit workers quickly ran to the car and extinguished the flames with the DIS emergency crew.

--------------------
Paul McLester

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Rob makes a good point, practice going out in both directions. Some ideas to help simulate things a bit more:

1) During the practice have someone call out a side at random, that way you never know which you are going to have to get out. Maybe even include "door won't open by latch" on some of them so you have to go out the window.

2) During a test day pick a safe spot on the track and practice a "live bailout" 15 minutes or so into a session. I think of a few places at Road Atlanta you can do it with no harm to the session or yourself, it's wise to inform folks in control you are going to be doing it prior though. If you are lucky enough to have crew on the radio for you do it at random during the session, see how you do.

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All this has happened before, and will happen again

wheel Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Fire systems, according to the GCR, must have a minimum of two nozzles -one in the driver's compartment and one in either the engine area or the fuel cell area.

I use "remove before flight" red ribbons on both the bottle pin and the handle pin.

Keith in WA Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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The "steamed" mention, wherever it came from may be an offshoot from when I mentioned "heat release" in an earlier thread. It never ceases to amaze how things can get warped on the intraweb. [nope]

--------------------
Keith Novak
(Will work for tires)

Jeremy Pike
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quote:
Originally posted by Mitch:
Newbie here, How many have a pre grid saftey checklist, if someone has a cool one it would be good to post for use by all. ie, the pin, belts,net, etc, stickin it to the dash would be helpful.

I can't say it's cool, but it get's the job done. Mine is taped to the dashboard. It reads

Net
Head sock
Hans
Belts
Helmet
Hans Straps
Gloves

Last year I when I started using a Hans at one point I forgot to hook the straps to the helmet. I didn't notice until the session was over. No matter how much of a hurry I may be in, I go over the list.

Great info here by the way. I have a couple holes in the fire wall and the motor is out at the momment, think I will fix those.

Kent Carter Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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quote:
Originally posted by Gatoratty:
The t-handle was pulled out about 12" and the pin was still in the top of the bottle.

That makes me break out in a cold sweat. I have forgotten to pull the pin before. One time a really good grid person (Thanks Lynn!) caught it and once or twice I've caught in time to unbuckle, pull and rebuckle.

From where my bottle is located, it wouldn't be hard for me to make a cable release to make it easier to pull if I forget before buckled. I like the key/pin idea, but I doubt the pin would end up back in the bottle. Another thought... my system has two pins. One on the bottle and one on the T-handle. The only time I need to pin the bottle is if there is work being done that will move the bottle or the T-handle and that connection is pretty secure, not likely to happen by accident. Hmm..

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Do I turn my 99 Hard S into a killerfast SM or seek a donor?

Kent Carter Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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I notice that it seems that the shift boot is burnt away. In some forms of motorsport, flame resistant shift boots are required. Is this something we should consider making legal for SM?

Something like this (other products out there, too)
http://simpsonraceproducts.com/products/?main_page=produ...74&products_id=4614&sort=

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Do I turn my 99 Hard S into a killerfast SM or seek a donor?

cam Verified Driver
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I updated my earlier post in this thread, do not what to pass around misleading information. Again, I was not there, do not know the details, and not trying to be a source of information on the details. I知 not so much interested in the deep details of what happen to Alan and why, rather, interested in paradigmatic and proactive steps we can take to prevent this type of tragedy happening again.

There are other great suggestions in this thread, the 迭emove before flight tags, double check all holes and repair as necessary, inspect fuel lines and repair/replace as necessary, allow fire resistant shifter boot, mount pull handle securly, and practice getting out of the car quickly.

From what I致e read, the two available fire suppression systems readily available are either Halon or AFFF. Most of the vendors seem to make both systems. Does one system have significant advantages over the other? It looks as if AFFF is less expensive to buy and recharge. I assume Halon is considered better because it is more expensive, but how/why is it better?

TIA

--------------------
"The problem with Socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money."
~Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher
"A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have."
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gbaker
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quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Pike:
Mine is taped to the dashboard. It reads

Net
Head sock
Hans
Belts
Helmet
Hans Straps
Gloves

Last year I when I started using a Hans at one point I forgot to hook the straps to the helmet. I didn't notice until the session was over. No matter how much of a hurry I may be in, I go over the list.

Does this mean you have to remove the HANS straps before you can get out?

--------------------
Gregg Baker, P.E.
Isaac, LLC

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Halon is not necessarily better. Many government agencies ban the stuff. It depletes ozone. It takes about a 5% concentration in the air to put out a fire so it can flood a compartment and may get to fires more easily than foam. At about 7% it can become dangerous to inhale. At that % temporary dizziness and loss of dexterity can result which can impare you ability to escape.

It's ideal for places like labs since it's a clean agent and doesn't leave a residue which prevents destroying expensive equipment. If the concentration doesn't get high enough in the area of the fire or the fire re-ignites, since it doesn't linger around it's a one shot deal. Spray someone down with foam and it sticks to them.

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Keith Novak
(Will work for tires)

ICTmotorsports
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You can purchase the REMOVE BEFORE FLIGHT tags on ebay. They come in different sizes. My recommendation: buy the biggest one.
I have all my cars equiped with supression systems and all the release pulls are in the dash in easy reach of a driver so you do not have to move really any more than getting the gear lever.
The pins are on the release so they are in your face. With the largest REMOVE tags laying across the gear tunnel the only thing you need to worry about is...you forgot to pull it in he pits, whe do I put the bloody thing now that I am on the grid ready to be released.
Yep, been there.
The answer is easy:
I sat on it, I put it in the door, I put it into the weight box. Anywhere.

The one thing I am truly scared of in racing is fire. Hit me, flip me whatever...once I see flames the suit will need to e changed. Maybe not because it was seered but for sure because of a brown spot in the mid section.

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"Racing is Life! Anything before and after is just waiting!" LeMans

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Gregg, your product is the only device on the market that always requires 2 extra steps to escape. This is a useful discussion, please don't hijack it with your usual malarkey.

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Do I turn my 99 Hard S into a killerfast SM or seek a donor?

ToddW Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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quote:
Originally posted by Wreckerboy:

A. Hit the master kill switch
B. Disconnect the ISAAC
C. Hit the harness release
D. Drop the window net
E. Pull the wheel
F. GTFO

This is a great discussion. Regarding this sequence I would like to provide a different take: You might be upside down or on your side when you need to get out. To prepare for this, suggest practicing the following sequence (to commit to muscle memory):

A. Hit the master kill switch
B. Drop the window net
C. Pull the wheel
D. Disconnect the ISAAC if used
E. Put one hand up against the roof (for support)
C. Hit the harness release
F. GTFO

springfielddyno Verified Driver
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post removed...

--------------------
Regards,
Sam H.
www.springfielddyno.com

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WRT the master switch, does anyone ever mount two? One in easy reach of the driver and one outside for the safety workers? Mine was a compromize putting it by the pass. window main hoop so I was going to put a remote pull cable to it. Otherwise I have to release my belts due to my seat side supports and center net. The other thing was to paint a large safety orange square around it so safety workers can find it quicker.

--------------------
Keith Novak
(Will work for tires)

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My car has the master kill switch located where the AC outlet to the left of the steering wheel was originally (thanks Tim Buck). Can be easily reached by me or a corner worker from the driver's side of the car.

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The best way to make a small fortune in racing is to start out with a big one.

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Good spot for it. I didn't think that was legal until I just re-read the rules.

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Keith Novak
(Will work for tires)

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Here's a source for the RBF tags. http://sportys.com/pilotshop/pages/search.cf...=remove%20before%20flight

I really like the RBF tank top.

I have had two in car fires. One in the SM was a blown engine. The hand held saved the car from a grass fire where the car came to rest.
The ASedan fire was from a split oil cooler line near the headers. That one I bailed while the car was still moving, although off the road, and not at a high speed. I didn't have time to do anything, except dive out the window because I could not breath. Flames were in the cockpit, but I was gone before I felt the heat. Did not shut of anything, including the engine. Fortunately, I was very near a corner station.
At the point I went out the window I couldn't have cared less about saving the car.

Monkeywrench
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quote:
It's ideal for places like labs since it's a clean agent and doesn't leave a residue which prevents destroying expensive equipment.
Lungs aren't expensive equipment?

For the doctors in the house, are there any long term consequences from inhaling the dry powder type of suppressants?

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-Bob Adams

Keith in WA Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
Pack Fodder

Region: NWR / Oregon
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Halon info from Material Safety Data Sheet:

EMERGENCY OVERVIEW:

Color: colorless

Physical Form: gas

Odor: sweet odor

Major Health Hazards: central nervous system depression, difficulty breathing

Physical Hazards: Containers may rupture or explode if exposed to heat.

POTENTIAL HEALTH EFFECTS:

INHALATION:
Short Term Exposure: nausea, vomiting, irregular heartbeat, symptoms of drunkenness, disorientation, bluish skin color, suffocation, convulsions
Long Term Exposure: no information on significant adverse effects

SKIN CONTACT:
Short Term Exposure: frostbite
Long Term Exposure: no information is available

EYE CONTACT:
Short Term Exposure:frostbite
Long Term Exposure: no information is available

INGESTION:
Short Term Exposure: no information on significant adverse effects
Long Term Exposure: no information is available

CARCINOGEN STATUS:
OSHA: N
NTP: N
IARC: N

--------------------
Keith Novak
(Will work for tires)

Kent Carter Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
Future Never Has Been

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Year : 1991
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Yeah... the MSDS for Halon is scarier than the one for Dry Chem. In extremely hot fires (>900C), Halon degrades into particularly nasty acids like hydrogen fluoride and hydrogen bromide.

The MSDS for Dry Chem: eye and lung irritant.

The MSDS for AFFF: eye irritant.

But the MSDS for 'Burning Race Car' and 'Burning Race Car Driver' are MUCH worse....

--------------------
Do I turn my 99 Hard S into a killerfast SM or seek a donor?

Gatoratty Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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9.3.22. FIRE SYSTEM
All cars shall be equipped with an On-Board Fire System except Showroom
Stock, Touring, Spec Miata, and Improved Touring.
A. On-Board Fire System Requirements
Cars registered after 1/1/09 shall comply with the following onboard
fire system requirements:
Systems certified to SFI specification 17.1
Those listed by the FIA on Technical List No. 16
The following information must be visible of the unit:
Certification label
Capacity
Type of extinguishing agent
Weight, or volume, of the extinguishing agent
The following is acceptable for cars registered before 1/1/09:
On-board fire systems shall use Halon 1301 or 1211, with
a five pound minimum capacity (by weight). Alternatively,
on-board fire systems may use AFFF or equivalent surfactant
foam material, 2.25 liter minimum capacity (by volume). All
AFFF fire system bottles shall incorporate a functional pressure
gauge and shall be marked with the manufacturer痴 recommended
吐illed weight. CO2 cartridge propellant fire extinguishing
systems are permitted provided that the seal of the
manufacturer specified CO2 cartridge is not punctured and the
fire bottle is equal to the weight specified by the system manufacturer.

--------------------
Paul McLester

Gatoratty Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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http://www.sfifoundation.com/

go to specifications and then 17.1 for a pdf of all approved systems. Halon is not approved for SFI 17.1 after Jan 01, 2008.

If you are building a new car you will want a system that meets SFI 17.1. Likewise if you plan on moving the system to a new car down the road.

--------------------
Paul McLester

Gatoratty Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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I believe Todd Buras' car has the kill switch in the a/c vent on the driver's left. That makes it a lot easier for you to kill the power

--------------------
Paul McLester

Casey Z Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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quote:
Originally posted by cam:
This discussion is going on in several different threads, would be great if a monitor could merge them so it would be easier to search on in the future.

Cam,

Unfortunately the forum software does not allow us to merge threads. Sorry.

--------------------
----------------
Z Brothers Racing / East Street Auto

Casey Z - 1.6 Kettle
MidDiv National #13

Mark McCallister Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
Just graduated from novice to rookie!!

Region: Central Florida
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Year : 1991
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I just went out to the garage and belted myself in to refresh my memory. I had mounted the kill switch on the passenger main hoop, and rotated it so in the on position it is pointed horizontally toward my head so I can reach it most easily. I can reach it to flick it off while fully belted, but I have to release the center net to do it. Or if I release my belts I can reach it with the center net still up. One thing I noticed - I tried doing it with my eyes closed, and instinctively pressed down on the switch, which of course is clockwise...got to push it up (counterclockwise) to turn it off. That cost me at least a second to realize I was pushing it the wrong way.. One thing though - if you turn off the car while still rolling you're going to lose power brake assist.

I agree the driver's side air vent hole would be the most convenient and accessible place for the switch, but the extra length of wiring required is at least a partial trade-off against that.

Keith in WA Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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The extra wire is a downside.

I did a little unplanned offroading in my car this summer and got stuck on an embackment at a serious angle. I wanted to hit my kill switch but the center net and belts were keeping me from falling out the passenger window. No way I was going to undo the belts as high as I was tipped in case I rolled and without the net I'd be dangling from my harness.

The safety workers left me there for about 10-15 mins like that. All I could do was turn off the key and wait.

--------------------
Keith Novak
(Will work for tires)

gbaker
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quote:
Originally posted by Kent Carter:
Gregg, your product is the only device on the market that always requires 2 extra steps to escape. This is a useful discussion, please don't hijack it with your usual malarkey.

The poster, apparently, always requires 2 extra steps to escape. Information such as this is useful to the discussion.

--------------------
Gregg Baker, P.E.
Isaac, LLC

Black Sweeper Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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I know your life is more important than your finishing position. With the 1.6 weight at 2285 my self and many others can't get the car to min wieght (legally). Given that a fire bottle is heavey the min weight should be increased and the fire bottle made mandatory. Other wise many competitors will not add the bottle due to the weight. Safety should be first but this is the reality. Made it mandatory.

--------------------
CFR/SeDIV SM # 8

spdmonkey Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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quote:
Originally posted by gbaker:
Does this mean you have to remove the HANS straps before you can get out?

No Gregg this is the malarky. This is not the thread for your stuff.

db

springfielddyno Verified Driver
Runoffs "MOVE OF THE RACE" (headlights)

Region: Ozark Mountain Region
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Year : 96, 93
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quote:
Originally posted by gbaker:
quote:
Originally posted by Kent Carter:
Gregg, your product is the only device on the market that always requires 2 extra steps to escape. This is a useful discussion, please don't hijack it with your usual malarkey.

The poster, apparently, always requires 2 extra steps to escape. Information such as this is useful to the discussion.
i took it as his list of what he did to get in the car... not out...

--------------------
Regards,
Sam H.
www.springfielddyno.com

wheel Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Net
Head sock
Hans
Belts
Helmet
Hans Straps
Gloves

This is his pre-race check list. I suggest he adds "PULL THE FIRE BOTTLE PINS"

Keith in WA Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
Pack Fodder

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Does anyone have any experience with how much additional brake effort it takes with the car switched off to slow the car quickly? A little? A lot but doable? Don't even consider it?

If I knew the car was on fire I'd like to hit the master switch before I came to a stop to shut off the fuel pump ASAFP. I once had a very heavy van with vacuum assisted brakes stall at 15mph and it took a herculean effort to get the cold brakes to do anything. I've never tried it in a light car with hot power brakes but no power.

--------------------
Keith Novak
(Will work for tires)

Gatoratty Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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I don't think the extra weight of a fire system should be a problem.

--------------------
Paul McLester

George Munson Verified Driver
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I'm looking into fire suppression systems and have 2 questions. Can the bottle be mounted in the trunk and is the smaller system enough to do the job in a Miata?

Thanks,
George Munson

Apex to Apex
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Car #: 077
Year : 1995
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I've been volunteering in Tech this year with NASA. We have been big in Emergency escapes. We ususally pick one poor soul to do the escape. If they get out in less that 10 sec they pass. If not, then they get to repeat at the next event.

We have also been checking for pins out on either fire extinguishers, or fire suppression systems. This one dude in a CTS-V driving for a big team came through impound. He had his pin in, he said it is supposed to be in while on the track so it doesn't mistakenly go off. I told him to pull to the side to talk with the Tech Director.

If you have 2 pins for your fire suppression system, 1 for the extinguisher and 1 for the button, they both need to be out. You don't want to be muddling with pins when you have a fire. You simply want to press that button and get out.

And not all guys do it, but most have the button for the system mounted to the drivers left up near the drivers window air vents, that way thte Safety crew can get easy access and pop that button if need be.

What I've learned in Tech will help me when I go to race.

My advice? Practice your escapes! With helmet on like you would be during a race!

--------------------
"Driving is a serious business" - John Milner, 'American Graffiti'

Apex to Apex
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Region: NASA Mid-West
Car #: 077
Year : 1995
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PULL ALL YOUR PINS ON YOUR FIRE SUPPRESSION SYSTEM!!!

--------------------
"Driving is a serious business" - John Milner, 'American Graffiti'

Vick Verified Driver
Do they sell spec training wheels?

Region: NYR
Car #: 12
Year : 1991
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I had a throttle cable get stuck wide open. I turned the car off and got it stopped no problem. Was the first lap of a track day session.

I was coming through a relatively tight series of turns (the chicane at NJMP lightning) so that, along with the miles of runoff room might have had something to do with it.

--------------------
http://www.volko.com

Danny Steyn Verified Driver
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Year : 1999
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Regarding Kill switches - For my SM I had Tom Folwer Fabricate an extension to the standard Kill switch mounted at the passenger door. This T-handled extension extends to just above the gear lever and allows me to kill all power while buckled in, but also allows a corner worker to kill it without having to reach into the car.

I will post pics when I see my car again. I did this after I saw the bad fire at Sebring at last year's Turkey Trot.

This whole fire thing scares me!

--------------------
Danny
http://www.dannysteyn.com
http://www.adeptstudios.com
OPM Autosports | Traqmate | Rossini Racing Engines
2010 June Sprints Champ, 2010 ARRC SMX Champ
2009 SARRC Champ, 2009 SEDiv ECR Champ, 2009 FES Champ
2008 SEDiv ECR Champ

 
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