Region: Oregon
Car #: 51
Year : 1993 Posts: 322
Status: Offline
posted
quote:Originally posted by Keith in WA: Does anyone have any experience with how much additional brake effort it takes with the car switched off to slow the car quickly? A little? A lot but doable? Don't even consider it?
I do not have experience but I don't think it would be a problem with a Miata. Adrenaline would also be a big factor. I've heard rumors of victims of street accidents having an imprint of the brake pedal on the bottom of their shoe. Since my car is street legal I might try driving it with the pwr booster disabled just to see what it's like. Might be good to know for other reasons as well, like the pwr booster going out on it's own.
1. Safety wire the pin for the fire system to the ignition key of the car. In other words, if the key is in the ignition, the pin cannot be in the bottle.
This is a bloody marvelous idea. Can't believe I hadn't thought of it before.
-------------------- Colin MacLean Flyin' MacLean Motorsports
Region: Oregon
Car #: 51
Year : 1993 Posts: 322
Status: Offline
posted
Would it be legal to add a seperate switch just to turn off the fuel pump? For those of us with our kill switches mounted away from the cockpit area an alternative to moving the kill switch would be to add a seperate fuel pump switch. So if either the kill switch or fuel pump switch are hit the fuel pump goes off.
Region: Ozark Mountain Region
Car #: 37, 31
Year : 96, 93 Posts: 775
Status: Offline
posted
quote:Originally posted by Randy Thieme:
quote:Originally posted by Keith in WA: Does anyone have any experience with how much additional brake effort it takes with the car switched off to slow the car quickly? A little? A lot but doable? Don't even consider it?
I do not have experience but I don't think it would be a problem with a Miata. Adrenaline would also be a big factor. I've heard rumors of victims of street accidents having an imprint of the brake pedal on the bottom of their shoe. Since my car is street legal I might try driving it with the pwr booster disabled just to see what it's like. Might be good to know for other reasons as well, like the pwr booster going out on it's own.
while i haven't tried it, there should be enough of a vacuum resivoir that you'll still have boosted brakes for one or two stops... I believe the amount of "boost" is listed in the 1.6 service manuals as a relation of vacuum and line pressure... There are two points whick will make a line that will cross 0 vacuum.... I don't remember seeing it in the 1.8 manuals, but it may be there too...
Region: Central Florida
Car #: 3
Year : 1992 Posts: 1304
Status: Offline
posted
I believe that in a Miata we have a system where the fuel pump is cutoff if there is no oil pressure. So turning off the ignition with the key would stop the motor and the fuel pump.
Region: NWR / Oregon
Car #: 88
Year : 95 Posts: 2000
Status: Offline
posted
quote:Originally posted by George Munson: I'm looking into fire suppression systems and have 2 questions. Can the bottle be mounted in the trunk and is the smaller system enough to do the job in a Miata?
Thanks, George Munson
George, It will fit fine unless you have a lot of other equipment back there. Make sure you have enough tubing though. I don't think 10 ft will be enough if you put one nozzle in the engine compt. The smaller bottle is the bare minimum per the requirements (2.25L). "Enough" is probably a matter of opinion but a miata is a pretty small car compared to many others. It sure beats the minimum 2# hand held fire extinguisher.
-------------------- Keith Novak (Will work for tires)
Region: kc
Car #: 20
Year : 92 Posts: 1801
Status: Offline
posted
"Enough" can only be determined if it puts out the fire. It won't be enough if you have a major oil and fuel fire and you are 300 yards from a corner station.
Region: NASA-SoCal
Car #: 23
Year : 1995 Posts: 912
Status: Offline
posted
quote:Originally posted by Colin MacLean: 1. Safety wire the pin for the fire system to the ignition key of the car. In other words, if the key is in the ignition, the pin cannot be in the bottle.
This is a bloody marvelous idea. Can't believe I hadn't thought of it before.
A good idea, but only if your data acquisition runs off a separate switch. If you have to turn the ignition to accessory to upload data to your laptop, you're looking at a possible accidental extinguisher discharge.
-------------------- Rob Gibson RJ Racing 2010 NASA Nationals TTE Champion 2008/2009 WERC Champion 2007 NASA SoCal SM Champion rjracing.net Weekend-Racer.com
Region: Ozark Mountain Region
Car #: 37, 31
Year : 96, 93 Posts: 775
Status: Offline
posted
quote:Originally posted by Keith in WA: Randy, I was thinking about that too. I believe it's illegal but if anyone protested you for that they should be lynched.
Region: Houston
Car #: 91
Year : 1991 Posts: 2171
Status: Offline
posted
quote:Originally posted by springfielddyno:
quote:Originally posted by Keith in WA: Randy, I was thinking about that too. I believe it's illegal but if anyone protested you for that they should be lynched.
Fuel pump turns off with the key...
And, in the 1.6, when airflow through the AFM ceases or (I think) the throttle is closed.
-------------------- Do I turn my 99 Hard S into a killerfast SM or seek a donor?
Region: Utah
Car #: 98
Year : 93 Posts: 165
Status: Offline
posted
quote:Originally posted by Gibscreen: A good idea, but only if your data acquisition runs off a separate switch. If you have to turn the ignition to accessory to upload data to your laptop, you're looking at a possible accidental extinguisher discharge.
Maybe a "laptop key" that has some huge thing attached (12" stuffed animal, 24" 2x4) so you wouldn't use it when racing, but could use it in the pits for data, and other misc things...
-------------------- Dave Kizerian Utah Region SCCA Road Race Director
Here's my $.22 from an part time TT'r/ part time crewman.
Another option to the "remove" tags or lockwire pins to keys might be to have a place to mount your bottle pins some where on the dash or w/in drivers view when they're removed. I'm sure everyone looks at their oil pressure after they start their car so why not look at your pretty fire pins on the dash? They could be stuck through a cable tie mount or something like that.
Some one mentioned the difference in density between halon and air. While this is true, in a fire the heat generated by the fire will rise. This will cause an upward movement of the air in the fire area (more fire=more heat=more movement) and your gaseous extinguishing agent may never reach you even if it is coming from a pressurized source. We all know a feather is heavier than air but not by much and can be kept aloft w/ a slight breeze. Obviously, there are many other variables that can affect the situation. I would mount the nozzles lower near my knees/lap.
AFFF or foam systems don't necessarily put out the fire. They work by providing a barrier between the fire and the "fuel" (what ever is burning). It generally is only useful in a 2d scenario ie: flat surfaces; although it does cling to vertical surfaces. Also, materials don't actually burn; they get heated/melted to the point that they start to release gases and the gases catch fire in the presence of a spark/flame. Just some info to make an informed decision. The best solution in my opinion would be to use both. Gaseous in the drivers area, foam where the liquids are.
In terms of bottle size, think about how long it takes to get out and "fuel" loading (burnable material) instead of size of the car. If you're a taller/bigger guy and it takes you all of the 10 seconds to get out, then you must/should get the bigger bottle. If it only takes you 3 sec to get out then you could "get away" w/ the smaller bottle. Also, all that plastic stuff we put in the car will burn; cameras, DA, cool suit cooler,.... It may take longer to start burning than a sheet of paper but EVERYTHING burns given enough time and heat. But I think of the bigger bottle as insurance; how long will it take you to get stopped, how far along is the fire before you notice, what's on fire,...
This is easier said than done but remain calm and don't panic. We all know what GTFO means but poop will happen. You have to remain calm to understand what's going on around and how to deal w/ it. Your drivers door may not open even though you have clearance to open the door; calm, think, react. My radio cable is stuck on xyz; calm, think, react. Someone mentioned putting coveralls on over their drivers suit to protect it while practicing; I think you should practice in an old suit so you have a similar level of difficulty. The coveralls may not have extra stuff/material that might get stuck/caught on stuff during egress. Why is my epaulet caught on the window net hanger; calm, think, react. Practicing in a similar drivers suit should reveal some of these pitfalls but the heat of the moment is a different animal.
Here should be another obvious one: RTFI. Also known as Read The Full Instructions. Understanding them is helpful too. If you have questions ASK! I also worked tech for NASA MW looking for pins and got the same story from a driver about how that one (on the bottle, mounted on the floor out of drivers reach) had to stay in so it didn't accidentally discharge. WTF??? Many others didn't give me a warm fuzzy that they knew how there system worked. Everybody that buys a DA setup knows how to make it give them some information back because they had to RTFI.
I'm an industrial fire fighter at work (not a real one but some training/experience) and the best thing to do in terms of surviving a fire is to not have one. I know: DUH!! When you're building your car look for how things are routed; keep liquid lines out of crush zones, free of pinch points. How can debris get to this fuel line? No rubber fuel/brake lines anywhere. Also pay attention to coolant lines; prevent a wreck and you also prevent increasing the chance of a fire. Fully understand why that minor leak won't stop. On another car I had a rear diff leak that I couldn't stop. As I was installing the third gasket I noticed that the Al diff cover had a tiny crack that went through the cover. DOH! Obviously cracks don't get better and if I was in a wreck (where anything can happen) it could have dumped gear oil on me or someone else and caught fire. Poop happens. Work on your car sober, sane and awake! Yes another master of the obvious. Don't learn how to assemble braided fittings on your fuel/brake system; spend an extra $30 bucks to buy some extra hose fittings to develop your technique then test them. Pressurize the hose and try to break it open, carefully of course. If you have some one building your car: TRUST BUT VERIFY! They may be the best shop in the world but they're human. Know what your looking for, if it ain't right have them make it so. If you're not sure have them explain it, get a second opinion. They should understand. You're in that seat not them.
I know how much more fun it is concentrating on being/going fast and many of us will never have to face some of this games most dangerous situations, but in most any endeavor PREPERATION + LUCK = SUCCESS. Soap box out.
Qik Nip
Loose Member '09 & '10 Great Lakes Regional Points Champion
Region: Cincinnati Great Lakes
Car #: 60
Year : 1990 Posts: 1487
Status: Offline
posted
Average Joe's got some extremely valid points. While I've never left the safety pin in my foam system, two years ago I came off the track only to realize that I'd run the race without my helmet chin strap fastened. Of course I had the HANS secured to the non secured helmet!
With all the attachments, (cool shirt, radio, hans, helmet, belts, and yes fire system), I'm gone to a check list that my bride rattles off each time I strap in.
As for practice exiting the car, I plan to don the old race suit this weekend and get some (closed eyes) practice! Rick
-------------------- Fortune Cookie Racing SM 60 Directions for use: Race, Rumple, Repair ... Repeat!
Region: CalClub
Car #: 44
Year : 1992 Posts: 1364
Status: Offline
posted
SCCA Pro requires an Exit Test before you are cleared to run any of their series. You need to be in full gear (HANS included) and be belted/netted in. You then have 15 seconds to:
Unbelt Hit the kill switch Hit the fire system button/pull Drop the net GTFO with feet on the ground
(I've see Charles Espenlaub do it in about 4.5 seconds)
Maybe it's time that Club institued a similar test. Perhaps an addendum in the log book?
On a similar note, SCCA Pro also does a mirror test at the same time (How many fingers do you see in RH mirror, LH mirror, and interior mirror). Also not a bad idea.
-------------------- Tim Buck
MAZDASPEED Motorsports Development Mazda North American Operations phone (800) 435-2508 fax (949) 222-2650
Region: Houston
Car #: 91
Year : 1991 Posts: 2171
Status: Offline
posted
quote:Originally posted by TimBuck:
On a similar note, SCCA Pro also does a mirror test at the same time (How many fingers do you see in RH mirror, LH mirror, and interior mirror). Also not a bad idea.
Hmm... I wonder what they think you ought to see out of your side mirrors. I think this is matter of driver preference, but I set mine up so that they see what is between my peripheral vision and the interior mirror... In other words, what is in my blind spot. If they stand close to the car by the rear bumper, I won't see them. If they step out 3 feet, I see them.
-------------------- Do I turn my 99 Hard S into a killerfast SM or seek a donor?
Region: southwest
Car #: 14
Year : 90 Posts: 739
Status: Offline
posted
I just orderd this kit (Link) . $314.99, free shipping if club racer. From my research from a couple of days of poking around, this looks like the best bang for the buck. Should be installed and ready by the next race.
Thanks for all of the great input and tips and Cajun Miata Man for point me to the kit.
-------------------- "The problem with Socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money." ~Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher "A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have." ~Thomas Jefferson
Region: Florida - 11
Car #: 14
Year : 92 Posts: 68
Status: Offline
posted
quote:Originally posted by TimBuck: On a similar note, SCCA Pro also does a mirror test at the same time (How many fingers do you see in RH mirror, LH mirror, and interior mirror). Also not a bad idea.
Based on my experience at Daytona, the "how many fingers" test ought to be done from directly in front of the car in addition...
-------------------- The best way to make a small fortune in racing is to start out with a big one.
Region: NWR / Oregon
Car #: 88
Year : 95 Posts: 2000
Status: Offline
posted
15 seconds to get out is a lot. When I thought I might be on fire it seemed to take about that long or longer but I reviewed my vid and it was about 6 secs from when I stopped to when I was standing in front of the car. I'm not even sure I opened the door. It seems slow and awkward when practicing but I shot out the window like a champagne cork! Amazing what you can do when smoke is pouring out and people are running at you with a fire-x.
-------------------- Keith Novak (Will work for tires)
Region: NASA-SoCal
Car #: 23
Year : 1995 Posts: 912
Status: Offline
posted
I've been wanting to get a fire system to supplement the fire extinguisher for a while. This is pushing me over the cliff to actually do it.
-------------------- Rob Gibson RJ Racing 2010 NASA Nationals TTE Champion 2008/2009 WERC Champion 2007 NASA SoCal SM Champion rjracing.net Weekend-Racer.com
Region: Central Florida
Car #: 3
Year : 1992 Posts: 1304
Status: Offline
posted
Greg Baker
I live in Orlando and will personally come and discuss your post with you. I just returned from the memorial service (didn't see you there) where the mother and family are distraught over the misinformation being posted on several internet websites. I was at the scene...you have no idea what happened and should shut your mouth. You disgust me. Look me up if you want to come see me first.
I would ask the moderators to please delete Mr. Bakers post in an attempt to not cause the family more suffering.
Region: SW Division
Car #: 32
Year : 1999 Posts: 194
Status: Offline
posted
Mr. Bakers posts (read over several years) appear to support a marketing strategy of offending and annoying to promote his product. Very unusual.
Back to a useful and important discussion.
1. I have left the bottle pin inserted on my fire suppression device - discovering it at the end of a race day. Scary. I have never left the pin in on the dash mounted T pull (visually obvious). I plan to tie wrap the bottle pin to the mounting structure so that it can't be inserted unless I do maintenance. I will take the chance that someone removes the T pull pin and triggers the unit. Better a recharge of the unit and cleaning out of car than a burn unit.
2. I can get out of my car HANS on, door closed, steering wheel on while impeded by the head restraint seat. But I am a skinny guy and I doubt that a 200 pound driver could do the same. Certainly a NASCAR roof exit would be much safer/faster for a broader range of body sizes. I would not like to try exiting upside down. Certainly unclear how I would practice it. On that note, several years ago one of the TX drivers rolled his car, released his harness and broke bones in his neck. Few have enough strength to hold our body weight steady with one arm while releasing harnesses with the other. I certainly don't. Unless I am on fire - I intend to stay upside down until the safety crew arrives. Hope I remember this post...
3. I have no idea why the GCR excludes SM and others from requiring a nozzle fire system. This should be changed in my opinion. Using the phrase "personal responsibility" in the same sentence as people who motor race is oxymoronic.
Region: SE
Car #: 39
Year : 1999 Posts: 835
Status: Offline
posted
After the fire scare at Sebring Nov 2008, I started taking more precautions wrt to fire.
I have always got into and out of my Miata with helmet and Hans on, so that I get used to exiting fully clad. I have timed myself and with everything connected, including radio and drink bottle, it takes about 10 seconds (not quick enough) and of course that is without having to come to a stop and no panic!
After Sebring I took my really cool DTM style peak off my Arai GP5W and added a visor, which I now run in the down position as soon as I exit the pits.
I have a sequence checklist for exciting my car on the boss of my steering wheel, but it was designed for fast pit stops in enduros and I doubt that I would look at it with flames in the cockpit.
IMHO, the sequence for exciting the car fast, has to be a reflex reaction, and this only comes from multiple mind numbing repitions embedding the sequence in the subconscious. I doubt that anyone can practice this enough. And practice it with the Visor Taped Over - i.e. so that you are doing it in the dark, simulating a car engulfed in smoke. And try and hold your breath through this process to avoid inhaling flames and charring the lungs. As I say I doubt that you can practice this enough. It needs to be in the muscle memory.
In the 2007 Panoz series, Joe Middlebrook (now running Mustang Challenge) had a fire at Sebring, pulled his car to a stop on the start/finish line (good move) but on the wrong side, not up against pit wall (bad move) but most importantly could not get his window net down. He managed to exit from the passenger side.
That day we all practiced getting the net down and exiting from both sides of the car. This can be tough with a Petty style bar, and don't forget to remove the rightside net if you have one.
Recently there have been several very telling videos of a flash fires in cockpits, one of a monster truck flash fire lasting less than 10 seconds but completely engulfing the interior (shield down) and of course the Tony Kanaan incident last month (shield down). Fortunately both escaped unharmed.
Fire is not something to be taken lightly, and your response needs to be well thought out and rehearsed in advance of this unfortunate possibility.
[ 08-30-2009, 06:28 AM: Message edited by: Danny Steyn ]
Region: SouthEast
Car #: 28
Year : 95 Posts: 3756
Status: Offline
posted
Baker, I will never buy one of your products and I will counsel anyone who will listen not to either. Mostly because of posts like this.
I'm warning you now as an administrator of this site, If I see another post from you this repulsive or even a hint of you trying to capitalize on this terrible situation, I will ban you permanently.
-------------------- Jason Holland Semi-interested civilian
Region: Central Florida
Car #: 3
Year : 1992 Posts: 1304
Status: Offline
posted
The reason I started this thread and the others regarding the accident was to raise our awareness level and learn from each other so as to try and avoid this in the future. Alan was a passionate racer who I am sure would want us all to enjoy our sport and be safe.
The ideas and stories have certainly made me re-think how I have been approaching my own safety. Thank you everybody for contributing.
Region: SoCal
Car #: 13
Year : 1992 Posts: 847
Status: Offline
posted
quote:Originally posted by Teamfour: I am considering putting the bottle inside the cockpit so I can SEE the pin in the bottle.
Is there any pros/cons to locating the bottle in the cockpit vs. the trunk?
I mounted a 5-litre ESS System very low on the tranny tunnel adjacent to my butt (passnr seat area). I can see the pin in the bottle (which I have left in a few times), the T-handle is on a blank-out-plate where the radio used to be (I've left that pin in before too)...
I'm not sure if there is an advantage to this location or not but achieving a 50/50 cross has never been a problem. Due to this thread, I made some florescent ribbons to attach to the pins.
-------------------- Thanks, John Mueller NASA SM National Director http://www.Weekend-Racer.com #13 "Tiger Miata" - 2009 SoCal SSM Champion
Region: Lone Star
Year : 1990 Posts: 4253
Status: Offline
posted
When I built my car, I went with an AFF system. I liked the idea of a user refill. I'm sure in case of a fire it wouldn't have crossed my mind, but I never wanted the issue of doubting whether I needed to deploy the foam or not to come into play. For $50 refill, I think it's even worth a test once a year to make sure nothing is clogged and to make sure there are no leaks or cracked lines and even to evaluate whether the nozzles are in the right place.
Edit: I forgot to add, the pull-knob for the system was mounted to the transmission tunnel within reach of me. I figured it's not a corner worker's job to deploy my system...they'll do their best with their bottles, it's my job to deploy my system. I put Dayglo orange laces hanging off the pin. The handle/knob pin only went in for transport, it was out for the whole weekend. I never bothered with the bottle pin. I only had 2 nozzles but I think 3 are more appropriate. One for the fuel rail side of the engine bay, one for the driver foot well, and I think one above the driver's head would be appropriate in the Miata since the tank is right behind. Oh yeah, when I painted the interior I added some ceramic insulating stuff to the paint which is supposed to help with heat (doubtful) but it does have the advantage of providing excellent traction. I'm thinking if you have a foam film system, you should make sure the footwell area has good traction even when soapy.
I sealed the tunnels to the trunk with aluminum flashing and intumescent sealer. I also took the liberty of re-routing the tail/brake light wiring through the passenger side so the driver's side could be sealed completely. There is no advantage as far as weight distribution and it makes for a very nice perfect seal on the driver's side. I saw some really nice sealing jobs done on JP3's cars with a steel plate welded to the hole. My next car will combine my ideas with his.
Edit #2: My bottle was on the decklid area. It is always in view. I just made sure to put good reinforcement under the decklid so it would hold in a big wreck.
-------------------- "Your victory is tainted! Asterisk! Asterisk!!!"--Lisa Simpson
Region: kc
Car #: 20
Year : 92 Posts: 1801
Status: Offline
posted
When I was appointed to the ASAC, the first thing on my agenda was to allow for the removal of the dash in all ASedans. Not only is the dash flammable, but the smoke is toxic. The old guard wanted to keep the dash, since the cars would look less stock. I argued that the only people who ever saw the inside of my car were the tech folks and me. Eventually the rule was re-written. My ASedan fire was prior to the dash removal, but only a small portion of the dash was touched by the fire. And, that was long after I had bailed. wheel
Region: Houston
Car #: 91
Year : 1991 Posts: 2171
Status: Offline
posted
Wheel... I totally agree with you. The smoke from a burning dash can very quickly incapacitate a driver (one byproduct usually found in the smoke is cyanide) and can actually keep rescue workers at bay. It's really noxious stuff and the fire is very hard to extinguish.
-------------------- Do I turn my 99 Hard S into a killerfast SM or seek a donor?
Region: Central Florida
Car #: 3
Year : 1992 Posts: 1304
Status: Offline
posted
I used 3M Fire Barrier Sealant CP 25W. It says that it will last for 4 hours in a fire. I bought it at Home depot. They use it for sealing conduit holes in buildings. They also have an expanding foam fire barrier that works great for filling seat belt towers, etc.
Email this page to someone! | Subscribe To Topic
![[thumbsup]](graemlins/thumbsup.gif)
![[help]](graemlins/help.gif)
![[yep]](graemlins/yep.gif)
![[twocents]](graemlins/twocents.gif)
![[Frown]](frown.gif)
Printer-friendly view of this topic | Subscribe To Topic