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Author Topic: SCCA rule proposal to require seat back braces - even for FIA seats
Juan Pineda Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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RE: expiration of FIA seats:

quote:
Originally posted by TillerTech:
must have been a change lately, wasn't a few years ago.

To clarify, the expiration date matters if you don't have a back brace. If you do brace it, then they don't care about the date.

-Juan

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dtfastbear Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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To clarify Juan's point, the NASA CCR explicitly makes the point that an FIA seat more than 5 years old is no longer "certified" and therefore must have a backbrace.

The SCCA GCR simply says that seats "homologated and mounted in accordance with the FIA standard 8855-1999 or higher [don't need a back brace]" As someone already pointed out, the homologation is only good for 5 years, so technically the SCCA also requires a >5 year old FIA seat have a back brace. I haven't heard a story of the rules being interpreted and enforced in that manner, however.

Cheers,

Dean

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TillerTech
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Yes correct, however an extension to the expiration date can be attained. It is very simular to the fuel cell regs.

How does SCCA and NASA deal with non certified seats? The alum ones are not FIA nor SFI recognized. There is no design criteria for strength or padding.

Personally, I would stay with an FIA seat, if it will fit correctly into the car. Seat slider assemblies scare the hell out of me, but allowed.

The 8862-2009 specs are a very good move, it increases rearward/back of seat criteria and increases component life to 10 years.

J

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dtfastbear Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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It's a big hole in the rules, IMHO. I just re-read the SCCA regs. It just says "one piece bucket seat." No requirements beyond that, so the fiberglass bucket out of your late 60's dune buggy will be just fine, as long as it has a back brace, of course!! [Wink]

I tried to get an extension on a Recaro seat once - the Recaro US folks said it would have to be sent back to the factory in Germany.

I'm not in touch with the 8862-2009 specs - when will seats that meet them be coming on the market? Should we expect a big price increase?

Dean

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TillerTech
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Yes, correct, must be re-certified by mfg.
Yes, I would imagine the new regs will require much more testing and better construction.

Are there any US made seats that are FIA certified?

The fuel cells are the same, return for inspection and extension.

J

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Greg Bush Verified Driver
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I'm going to bet this started as an idea on how to extend the life of FIA seats so we don't have to throw them away, and somewhere the option turned into a must-do for all FIA seats.

Maybe this rule should read that after they expire they need a brace, but not required before?

Then everyone gets to keep doing what they do and the risk takers can take a new one (if you see it that way).

Rules are rules, and safety is personal.

FWIW I think its a bad idea to brace a seat not made for it...

Jonathan Christian Verified Driver
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Back brace is a bad idea. We had a Miata in our region equipped with a back brace that slid sideways into a tire wall. Instead of the seat flexing and returning to its normal state, the back brace bent and tweaked the seat, holding in its awkward position. Luckily the driver was ok, but was taken to the emergency room cause he had back pain.

Brian Cates
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What, let me guess, after the FIA certified seat gets to a pre-determined age the carbon fiber construction is no longer structurally able to resist the impact forces it was originally designed for?

Sounds like an excuse to make everyone buy a new seat.

I can understand seat belts, somewhat, if they are left exposed to the sun, but now seats have a life expectancy?

Unless the sanctioning body rules require an updated and more stringent FIA performance spec, the seat should be good forever.

Adding a back brace is a very bad idea. It will just transmit the forces from a rear end collision right into your spine, no thanks.

As a structural engineer, this back brace concept has not been very well thought out and could potentially cause more serious back injuries.

I'd rather see the rules pay more attention to how the seat is mounted to the floorpan, which is really where a safty problem is likely to occur.

Would you put a band-aid on your neck for a cut on your leg? [Smash]

dtfastbear Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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I know that I'm being hypocritical by posting this after stating that only testing and data should be considered, not just eye-balling, but...

This is the only brace design that I've seen that makes sense to me. Would love to see some sled runs on it.

http://www.ogracing.com/catalog/2-Car/36-Roll-Bar...MPETITION-SEAT-BACK-BRACE

Other designs seem to concentrate the force too much in a small area right in the middle of the back. Again, this is purely conjecture, not testing or analysis.

I don't think this one is designed to be bolted through the seat - it is meant to be located directly behind the seat to provide support for a rear impact where the belts would go slack instead of holding the seat in place (line a frontal impact).

This wouldn't be legal for the proposed rule, however, as the SCCA requires a brace to be bolted through the seat back for lateral support.

Cheers,

Dean

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Johnny D Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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I would think you would need 2 braces 45* out from each back corner of the seat, or one big one.

The current back brace works for frontal and back impact, but side impact such as what Jonathan mentioned about??

So 45* covers both?
J~

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quote:
Originally posted by Brian Cates:
What, let me guess, after the FIA certified seat gets to a pre-determined age the carbon fiber construction is no longer structurally able to resist the impact forces it was originally designed for?

Sort of true actually. Carbon fiber composites are prone to generating tiny little cracks in the cured resin called microfractures from even pretty minor abuse. Those little cracks can quickly grow into big cracks. 5 years is probably where they figure the seat has seen enough abuse that the material is questionable.

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Kim Ouye Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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I contacted Recaro about this issue a few years ago. They put me on the phone with one of their engineers.

I asked specifically if it okay to add a seatback brace to their seat (at the time a Pole Position). He said they are not allowed to recommend or not recommend one, only that their seats are tested and FIA approved without one.

I prodded him several times, but he stuck to his answer. However, by the way he was saying things it was clear to me that if he could make a recommendation, he would say not to add one.

Just my $0.02...

--------------------
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Back when the seat back brace was initiated wasn't the purpose to prevent the driver from winding up in the back seat compartment of a sedan or coupe if the seat mounts failed?

I'm rather large and my Miata seat can go no further back as it rests on the rear transverse bar of my cage. I would have to move the seat forward to install a brace and buy a smaller diameter steering wheel to even drive the car uncomfortably! Have these guys ever even tried to enter and exit one of our cars?

Watching some of the rule changes over the years has convinced me that regardless of what the workplace guru's say, Dumb ideas not only exist but tend to gather momentum!

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quote:
Originally posted by sirois737:
Back when the seat back brace was initiated wasn't the purpose to prevent the driver from winding up in the back seat compartment of a sedan or coupe if the seat mounts failed?

I'm rather large and my Miata seat can go no further back as it rests on the rear transverse bar of my cage. I would have to move the seat forward to install a brace and buy a smaller diameter steering wheel to even drive the car uncomfortably! Have these guys ever even tried to enter and exit one of our cars?

Watching some of the rule changes over the years has convinced me that regardless of what the workplace guru's say, Dumb ideas not only exist but tend to gather momentum!

A proper back brace serves to increase rigidity in every plane. Attach your seat to the bulkhead and you have the best possible mount.

A half inch of bending at the floor is at least couple of inches movement at your shoulders and it potentially enough to let you out of your harnesses.

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cnj
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quote:
Originally posted by Kent Carter:
[A half inch of bending at the floor is at least couple of inches movement at your shoulders and it potentially enough to let you out of your harnesses.[/QB]

Hi Kent, I would agree if you were well over 12 feet tall (which you weren't last time we raced), other wise its well under an inch lateral movement. I am questioning your math here, not whether an unsupported seat could move several inches in a sideways impact.

Craig J

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keep in mind, these are the same people that polled all the IT racer's about allowing engine mount's with alternate material's... the vast majority of the driver's were in favor of this.... so what did the board ultimately decide? to do nothing!

hoop

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Keith in WA Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Craig: Each 1 degree of rotation = 1/2 inch of deflection 30 inches away. It adds up quickly. It doesn't take a lot of bending at the mounting points to make a big difference at shoulder level.

The most rigidity isn't always the best answer though. Concrete is more rigid than a trampoline. Which would you rather land on?

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cnj
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Goody, a math debate!

Actually I agree with YOUR math, just not my buddy Kents. I am not sure however why you choose 30". Thats a really, really tall guy.

Anyway back to my original critique, 12mm deflection on a 430mm spacing (approximate width of rails) extended vertically to say 550mm does not translate to over 50mm lateral deflection. Its under 3/4 inch. Whew, I need to go find some TV to watch - must be bored to go online stirring up a math debate....

I defer to your professional training on the issue on seat rigidity. What you say makes sense.

Craig J

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I just use those numbers since that was an actual problem I found at work years ago and they stuck in my head. They're handy for back of the envelope stuff. 30" is ballparkish hips to shoulders too.

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Keith Novak
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Kent Carter Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Craig,

You are right! I did the calculations on my seat mount and realized that it is the very top of the seat that moves over 2 inches when I moved the front mounting point up or down by 0.5". The top of the shoulder belt hole (which is at 27") moves about 1.7". A few months ago, I reset the position of my seat by 0.5" at the front mount and had to shorten my belts by about 2", which is why I spouted off that number.

I was doing fore-aft movement 'math' instead of lateral. I'm not sure that my belts would loosen in purely lateral movement of the seat.
::: shudder :::

I still hold that the Miata floor is weak enough (without the factory seat mounts) to allow the weight of the driver to bend the floor enough to let the driver out of the belts... at least in fore-aft movement. The forces involved are bigger than most people think.

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cnj
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Kent, we can't just start agreeing with each other. I think its against forum rules....

I have been thinking a lot this week about the safety issues relating to our seats. As some of you might know, a week ago there was an accident at TMS that claimed the life of a passenger and has the driver (a fellow South African) in critical condition after hitting the wall in a Corvette. My prayers are with both families and my brain is engaged with how we might make our hobby/sport safer. There is no indication that seats were a contributing factor in this accident, safety is simply on my mind and seats are part of that.

Over the last 3 years I have searched the web for good info on safety and have found little other than the occasional educational paper. I have a family member who had the opportunity to test for a Nascar team and who also toured the safety research center that Nascar runs. From his description and the info I have read, it seems that Nascar is the most advanced in the world in data collection of impact versus injury. This research, applied into driver containment design, has resulted in dramatically fewer injuries in Nascar in the last few years.

I wonder why this info does not seem to have trickled down into club racing. As an engineer I am bemused at the degree of guess work which seems to go on with our safety issues. Case in point the suggestion to arbitrarily brace all seats without manufacturer testing or approval. Furthermore the limitations on floor pan bracing and the prevalence of left side roll cage bars immediately next to drivers heads in SM's. When I think about it I get chills, and only feel much better when I wander over and take a look at the safety of the guys driving Formula Vees.

Craig J

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Craig

SCCA/NASA/PCA/PBOC pick your flavor....do not have R&D centers or even engineers on staff to develop safety rules. They depend on SFI or FIA to do the testing and establish the standards. The people who make the rules are not safety professionals....they are just people trying to do the right thing. NASCAR got into this big after they lost their star. This is one of the guys who has done a lot of testing on seats. http://ispseats.com/ Here is another good article http://www.circletrack.com/safety/ctrp_0712_seat_harness_mount/index.html

If you look at most of the seat manufacturers installation instructions they recommend attaching the seat to the cage so the driver and cage move together with an impact. Do you realize what an uproar there would be if SCCA mandated that all seats be mounted to the cage?

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Paul McLester

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Paul... this back brace proposal is just that. There is no more important connection to the cage, in my opinion, than the ones that occur at at the upper torso/shoulder level as this is where the primary forces are applied and also where significant roll cage structures are universally available in all cars to adequately attach the seats. The relationship between the seat and the cage and belts is obviously of critical importance for the survival of the driver in a wreck. Mounting the seats to the floor alone simply can't be enough.

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Keith in WA Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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I wonder if it would be acceptable to attach the seat to the roll cage more from the sides than directly in the middle. That would provide the aft and lateral support, transmit the forces more into the shoulderblades than the spine and allow the spine area to still flex a bit.
[scratchchin]

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Having read the full rule suggestion in FastTrack I think I can devise the reasons for the CRB's decision to go this route:

It's the quote entirely in their brackets [] that's telling:
[The CRB has been made aware of deficiencies in mounting of FIA homologated seats that would be mitigated by the addition of a seat back brace.]

What this tells me is they would rather tech people NOT become "Expert FIA Seat Installers" but rather become "Expert FIA Seat Back Verifiers".

That's the way I read that quote: we either mandate seat backs regardless of the type of seat (due to people not installing the FIA type properly) or we start disallowing cars with FIA seats that are missing said seat back brace.

It's a no-win for them and I can understand their position but it seems odd to arbitrarily claim to know how FIA seat manufacturers design, build, & test their seats by claiming the requirement for a back brace.

I'm sharpening my pen(cil) and getting a letter off to the CRB as I'm in agreement with the (majority of) expressed opinions here about it being a bad idea.

It may boil down to a tough decision on the SCCA's part to explicitly state how an FIA seat must be mounted with "others" being left to their own devices.

I'll edit this post with the text of my letter.

Thanks,
Brandon

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The FIA has a guidance document that demonstrates the proper mounting of FIA seats:
FIA Touring Car Regulations Article 253

See page 17.

This would be very difficult for us to achieve in a Miata.

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Kent,
Interesting read, but note they're still fixing the seat base support to the tunnel & side/rocker panel rail. In their case it's via a pair of cross bars of minimum thickness & cross section with sleeved seat bolt holes.

They don't necessarily say to not fix any bracket to whatever cage bars that might be running under the driving position but their drawings could support that statement.

Someone else mentioned the inability of the SCCA to mandate how seats are attached in a vehicle. Well, the easiest way to mandate "how" is to disallow any seat that doesn't require a seat back brace.

If the SCCA's position is to operate an organization that has member safety as it's utmost priority then they're going to have to get into mandating how seats (FIA or non-FIA) are installed and incorporate those details in the classing specifications.

Specifically where you can/can't cut or modify major portions of the vehicle frame/tub to facilitate installation to the safest level.

Quite the challenge when it comes to tiny vehicles like ours...

I don't eve know if you could route a pair of support tubes down the length of the driver's side with a Kirkey mounted to the floor without serious rail & tunnel changes.

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Brandon,

There were a couple of points I gleaned from the FIA document:
1. Don't mount the seat to the thin sheet metal of the floorboard!
2. Don't put a back-brace on an FIA seat. It's not safe!

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quote:
Originally posted by Kent Carter:
Brandon,

There were a couple of points I gleaned from the FIA document:
1. Don't mount the seat to the thin sheet metal of the floorboard!
2. Don't put a back-brace on an FIA seat. It's not safe!

I wonder if it's that much different having a back brace on those popular thin aluminum seats? I know some have thick aluminum bracing but some are just bent sheet metal.

--------------------
"Your victory is tainted! Asterisk! Asterisk!!!"--Lisa Simpson

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Antonio,

You bring up a good point, but I think most aluminium seats are designed with reinforcement at the area where the brace is mounted. The FIA seats are really quite thin at the shoulders and have zero reinforcement for mountings.

I have one of those rather minimalistic seats and I'm giving serious thought to a much more substantial bucket.

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The difference I see with an aluminum seat compared to a composite seat is that with the aluminum one, you have a more or less uniform thickness throughout the seat. You know what you're dealing with. With composites like carbon fiber or fiberglass, you can tailor the thickness to make areas stiffer than others.

Add a stiff spot to a place that wasn't meant to be stiff, suddenly you can have the back brace punch right through the seat and now you're in a world of hurt. Also with aluminum, you can drill a hole and you have to be careful the hole doesn't crack, but it's not going to delaminate. I just see an aluminum seat less sensitive to being monkeyed with than a composite seat that may have been tweaked in ways we don't know.

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Keith Novak
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Martin Wiedenhoeft Verified Driver
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Has anyone seen the addition of Fastrack that just came out?

Looks like this is still being proposed for next year.

Has this actually been a problem? Where does it all end, after all we are racing. Air bags next? Maybe 100mph bumpers?

--------------------
Trakmnky

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Update given the August Fastrak...

The target keeps moving on the seat mounts. They've backed away from the seat brace, but now they're stating that you have to use "those [brackets] used when the seat was tested for homologation." Not only is that information NOT published in the homologation, most manufacturers sell multiple different mounts for the seats. Who it tech could POSSIBLY enforce this rule correctly?? My guess is that if you put a Recaro or Sparco sticker on your side mounts, they'll have to accept that as "manufacturer recommended". Those things don't even have part numbers on them!

Maybe I'm reading the proposed rule wrong. Are they saying the TYPE of mount must be the same or the very specific mount, itself, must be the same one used? If just the type, what's the purpose of the second sentence? If it is just the type, I'm OK with that.


And what does this mean?

"Unless supporting evidence is provided by the manufacturer of a series produced car that shows FIA safety cage testing for homologation included an adjustable seat mount, seats and their supports must be attached to a fixed
mounting structure.”

What is a "series produced car" and what does the safety cage testing have to do with seat mounting? Does this rule only apply to series produced cars?

I'm very confused...

I contacted Recaro, and I have someone checking with the guys in Germany who oversee the actual seat testing about what sort of testing has been done with the sliders. The gentleman did mention that their ALMS and GT3 Cup Car series cars use the sliders...

I'll keep this thread updated as I learn more.

Cheers,

Dean

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Juan Pineda Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Dean, in the second sentence the language says that the brackets must be the ones that the seat was homologated with. Sorry, can't cut and paste the text from where I currently am writing. In my search last night I found something saying that FIA certification for a recaro seat was valid only when seat is mounted using the recaro side mounts. I think this is the intent of the rule proposal, and it's pretty clear in th second sentence. Nevermind that you have to chop up the floorboards to accommodate the factory side mounts...

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wheel Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Of the many FIA seats that do not use a back brace -- Many are mounted in a way that is not solid. You can grab a seat and move it from side to side and back and forth. An attempt was made to require back braces, even though the FIA seats were designed to be used without them.
Everyone threw a fit about modifying their FIA seats. Fair enough. So, why are some of these seats marginal. Many are not mounted the way FIA mounted them when they certified them. They have stock sliders, or other mounting systems, that were never imagined during the FIA certification process. Now the rule says you don't have to put in a back brace, but you have to mount the FIA seat the way the manufacturer intended.
Non FIA seats are not affected by this rule change.
wheel

[ 07-22-2010, 02:46 PM: Message edited by: wheel ]

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Wheel,

My issue is not with the intent of tightening the rules to ensure that seats are mounted safely. My issue is with the wording of the proposed rule. It is confusing and unnecessarily complex, and I guarantee it will be interpreted differently by different tech stewards. That alone makes it a bad rule...

Again - a few simple points:

- Manufacturers sell multiple models of mounts that will fit a given seat, yet do not publish the exact mount that was used for homologation. How will competitors get this information and how will tech stewards verify it?

- All of the mounts I've personally ordered directly from seat manufacturers (a couple Sparco, a couple Recaro) have had no identifying markings other than a big RECARO decal on the side. How does a tech steward verify that the L-shaped piece of steel with 6 holes in it and a Recaro decal is the RIGHT mount?

- That sentence about the "series produced car" is just ridiculous. What does it mean? I can just imagine the arguments that tech stewards will have to endure...

Just trying to avoid a rule being passed that results in confusion and frustration. Not trying to make things less safe.

Dean

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The CRB is seriously confused.

The FIA regulations do not specify the seat mount nor does a seat homologated to the FIA specification have a specific mount. It has a 'mounting type': bottom, lateral (and back, in S2000-certified seats).

FIA Standard 8855-1999 Sec 1.2 states:
quote:
Each seat shall be homologated with its type of supports: lateral supports, lower supports. The tests described below shall be carried out with the type of supports defined by the manufacturer at the time of the homologation
The manner in which a seat is mounted to the car is not covered in any way in Lists 12 or 40, but is discussed in Appendix J, Article 253, Section 16:
http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/86CFF4...125774C002CD5E3/$FILE/253 (10-11).pdf

The statement regarding adjustable seats is Section 16 (3): "If rails for adjusting the seat are used, they must be those originally supplied with the homologated car or with the seat."

What a mess!

There are two issues:
1. The strength of the seat. As long as the seat maker's attachment points are used (which are threaded inserts in the composite), the seat is not an issue. It is compliant until it fatigues and expires.
2. The strength of the mounting to the car. This is the issue. The tin can floorboards of most street cars cannot handle the forces the seat will exert on them. The strength of some adjustable rails may be questionable. No one certifies these. The mounting brackets for seats are questionable. No one certifies these.

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I do agree with both points.

What if we're reading into the intent wrong though? (My cynical side showing through here...)

A rule was proposed to require a back brace on all seats because seat mounts can be sketchy and are unverifiable. That proposal was shouted down. What if the response is, "OK, you can mount it without a back brace if you prove it's mounted the exact same way it was tested. Oh that's impossible to verify too? Then put on a [censored] back brace!

[Smile]

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Keith Novak
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"RECARO FIA homologation 8855-1999 only valid when used with RECARO sidemounts."

From the fine print in this Recaro brochure:

http://www.recaro.com/fileadmin/extensions/rec_...res/Brochure_AM_Seats.pdf

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I'm only a lawyer, so understanding SCCA-prose is far beyond my ability.

I have an Ultra-Shield aluminum racing seat, with a brace going from the cage behind the seat onto the back of the seat. AFAIK, this is not an FIA-approved seat. I am hoping, obviously, that I don't have to change anything for this new rule/proposal, but I'm wondering if anyone knows for sure, and, if so, if that person could explain it to me.

Thanks.

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Mark you are correct. This rule change only affects people with FIA seats with no braces.

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Yosh Hakutani
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Mark, please move along.....nothing to see here.
Back to watching the little lady:

 -

(Was radiator shopping) [Wink]

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Here's the letter I wrote to the CRB regarding their revised seat mounting proposal. I know they don't like cut and paste form letters, but I hope it might motivate some additional people to write their own letters if any of what I wrote makes sense.


Title: Proposed seat mounting rules are unclear
Category: AS
Class: AS
Car: none
Request:
To the CRB:
I am writing in response to the newly proposed rule in the August Fastrack regarding FIA seat mounting.I have questions/issues for your consideration for the two somewhat distinct assertions in the proposed rule.

First: “Seat supports shall be of the type listed on FIA technical list No. 12 or No. 40 (lateral, lower, floor, back, etc).In accordance with the FIA standards, the seat supports (brackets) must be those used when the seat was tested forhomologation."
I agree 100% that the same TYPE of mount used for testing (lateral, lower, floor, back, etc.) must be used. This is a very good rule to retain. However, to specify that the brackets "must be those used when the seat was tested for homologation," will lead to some enforcement problems, I'm afraid.
First, the *specific* brackets used by the manufacturer for the FIA homologation are NOT recorded as part of the homologation. So, I don't know what a tech steward would use a reference to enforce this rule.

Second, manufacturers do not, in my experience and to the best of my knowledge, stamp manufacturer names or part numbers onto their mounting brackets. So, even if the specific bracket was recorded in the homologation records, I do not know how a tech steward would verify that the brackets installed on a given car are indeed those used in the test. For example, if I put RECARO stickers on some Sparco brackets, would ANY tech steward be able to verify who manufactured them?

Third, seat manufacturers often sell several different seat mounting brackets for the same seat (e.g. Recaro offers both steel and alloy side mounts) yet no where does it state that the seat was homologated with both brackets.
So, my proposal is that you either keep the rule as it is currently written (just specifying the type of support) and either a) state that the mount must be from the SEAT MANUFACTURER and put the burden of proof on the competitor or b) specify some minimum thickness of steel for the brackets. However, I do not believe the new rule as proposed could be practically enforced.

For the second part of the proposed rule:
"Unless supporting evidence is provided by the manufacturer of a series produced car that shows FIA safetycage testing for homologation included an adjustable seat mount, seats and their supports must be attached to a fixed mounting structure.”

I'm confused by this proposed rule. Is this a rule about "series produced cars" in particular? And what is a "series produced car." I did not find that defined in the GCR. Does the rule pertain ONLY to cars for which an FIA cage homologation was sought? I'm worried that the INTENT of this rule and how it might be interpreted is that no adjustable seat mounts are permitted unless the SEAT homologation testing was performed with an adjustable seat mount. Is the intent to outlaw sliding seat mounts?

If the intent is just to address an issue with cars which have an FIA cage homologation, then I'd suggest rewording the rule to say, "For series produced cars which have undergone FIA safety cage homologation, fixed seat mounts are required unless... [evidence is provided]" This would make it clear that this rule is not applicable to any other race car other than those with FIA homologated cages.

If the intent is to outlaw sliding seat mounts in all race cars, then I have three issues.

First, the proposed rule is completely inappropriate and confusing as written. It should make no reference to series produced cars or FIA safetycage testing.

Second, sliding seat mounts are nearly a practical necessity for many club racers who share cars.

Third, the competition seat manufacturers design and sell competition sliding mounts for exactly this reason. I called Recaro, and someone from their tech department said he'd have to check with the guys in Germany if they could provide evidence of the sliders being used in homologation testing. He did go on to say that they use their own sliding seat mounts in their Patron GT3 Cup cars and all of their ALMS cars. That's just food for thought.

Another thing to consider - my wife, who is only 5' 2" has to have the seat quite far forward in order to reach the pedals and the steering wheel. With a head containment seat, she would not be able to enter or exit the driver's window quickly (or at all?) unless she could slide her seat back to get the head restraint out of the way.

Thanks for your consideration on these matters. I'm glad to see you all taking safety and seat mounting very seriously. I do ask that you carefully consider the implications of how any additional rules are written and interpreted.

Respectfully,
Dean Thomas
San Francisco Region

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+1 All great point Dean.

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Ill back up what Keith said a few posts back. CF, and even fiberglass type composites are very strong(when its designed and manufactured to be) but its also very brittle, just watch and F1 crash......those cars disintegrate. Very small stresses in a direction that the designers didnt consider or viewed as non-critical and it cracks. So even things like putting too much weight on a certain section of the seat when ingressing/egressing can cause cracks. At the same time, the resin does break down over time which can be accelerated by fluids and exposure to things like sunlight. And over time, simply driving at speed around the courses, going over bumps and such will cause the "microfractures". And thats just everyday stuff, that doesnt include car or wall encounters.

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Looks like we got a sensible adjustment to the seat brace rule in the December Fastrak:

9.3.41. SEATS The driver’s seat shall be a one-piece bucket-type seat and shall be securely mounted. The back of the seat shall be firmly attached to the main roll hoop, or its cross bracing, so as to provide aft and lateral support. Seats homologated to and mounted in accordance with FIA standard 8855-1999 or.FIA.Standard.8862-2009 or higher need not have the seat back attached to the roll structure. Seats with a back not attached to the main roll hoop or its cross bracing may not be mounted to the stock runners unless they are the FIA homologated seats specified in an FIA homologated race car. The homologation labels must be visible. Seat supports shall be of the type listed on FIA technical list No.12 or No. 40 (lateral, bottom, etc). Passenger seat back – if a folding seat, it shall be securely bolted or strapped in place.

It looks like the only change is to say that you cannot mount a seat to STOCK sliders unless the entire car and seats are homologated that way by the FIA.

Whew!

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When did the passenger seat become "legal"?

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Glenn Davis

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This clarification happened to include how an existing passenger seat needed to be secured.

I don't think it was ever "illegal".

The rule always said "may remove" I thought...

dtfastbear Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Don't SSx cars have to have a passenger seat? This rule isn't a spec miata rule, it is a general GCR seat mounting rule.

Cheers,

Dean

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quote:
Originally posted by Brandon F.:
This clarification happened to include how an existing passenger seat needed to be secured.

I don't think it was ever "illegal".

The rule always said "may remove" I thought...

"The passenger seat must be removed." at least in SCCA.

-bw

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Bruce Wilson
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