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Author Topic: Head restraint systems
cintibob
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The SCCA is trying to require head restraint systems in 2012. There are 8 systems that are FIA approved and several are quite expensive. I have tried two of them and hate how they feel and it seems like another annoyance to try to get used to plus more money to spend just for the prevledge to sit in the car. I have been racing for 25 years and this is the first rule that burns my grits, I just don't like being told to purchase safety equip. that is so awkward and uncomfortable. There are so many other things that could improve safety that could be required before this thats cheaper and less intrusive. I know NASA already has this rule and I have no problem if someone wears one for their safety or own sense of well being. Tell me if you feel you should be forced to purchase a Hans,Defender type device or allowed to wear one of your own accord. I am interested in how you feel.

Gatoratty Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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They make you buy helmets, suits, gloves, cages, etc. Why does this one thing piss people off? I was at a Skip Barber school where a student crashed at daytona and suffered a basal skull hemorrhage as he wasn't wearing a HANS or other device. You need to try a HANS with a quick release slider before you pass judgment. I will be happy to let you try mine on at the next race we are both attending. The slider is a huge difference from a standard model and the quick release lets you get out of it in a hurry if you need to exit the car and don't like doing it with the HANS still attached. Wait until December you can try them all at the PRI show.

Personally I won't race without mine and can't understand why people will spend thousands of dollars on their car and yet balk at $600 to save their life?

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Paul McLester

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My feeling is that your right to choose inadequate safety equipment ends at the point where the results lead to increased insurance costs for me. I'm not sure we are there yet.

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W. Bonsell
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One can always find additional ways to improve safety in just about anything, from workplace, personal vehicles and even race cars and drivers.

At some point I think you need to draw the line and acknowledge personal responsibility for one's ultimate safety in something as inherently risky as motor sports. Obviously there is a baseline standard of safety...firesuit, helmet, gloves, cage, etc...but where then do you draw the line...

Were I some young fellow with wife and kids at home, I might be more inclined to put personal safety first. I know this view is heresy to many, but I race without a restraint system and fully acknowledge I have committed money elsewhere in order to get on the track. Some would say that were I to meet my demise on a track doing something I truly love....well you know what they say. But I also did not agree with mandatory helmet laws for motorcycles.

Bill

ps - my wife insists I get a Hans type devise before next year! But let it be by choice not mandated!

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William Bonsell
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JimEli Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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While I race with a HANS, I agree with Bill here and oppose adopting mandatory head & neck restraint regulations. Safety quickly becomes a slippery slope, and for those demanding a H&N restraint, I ask where do you stand on these higher requirements?

SA2005 helmet standard vs. older.
Closed face vs. open face helmets.
Fire system vs. fire extinguisher.
5, 6 or 7 point harness.
SFI 3.2A/1 two piece suit vs. a higher rated one piece.
Fire retardant underwear, balaclava, and shoes.
Non FIA seats allowed with seat braces.
How about a fuel cell?

We’ll soon need skis to negotiate this slope…

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fishguyaz
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I have a close friend who is now a quadraplegic after an accident where they borke c2-c5.
IF, and i say if, my HANS device can help potentially prevent this type of life for me, than thats all i need, and i will use it, and do, regardless of rules.

the stragnest thing i have run accross was a freind who told me that he couldnt afford the HANS device while he was showing off his new sticker package on his car that cost him about $400-$500.
i guess we all have our priorities.
I dont do any instruction, and am not a passenger in cars on track because i will NOT be on track w/o a H+N device.
i have myself felt the tethers tighten up in a wreck, I swear by my device(of choice).
I think this technology goes hand in hand with a harness system, and is proven to work.

the insurance argument is one thing, but i know i would feel really crappy if i was invovled in a no fault incident on the track and the other guy ended up paralized or dead from something that could have been prevented by a small investment when you think about it.
these devices hold their resale value, even a new one that is $700 will go for $500 used, so its really only $200 out of your pocket.
if you cannot afford to buy this item, and thats your argument, than you are in the wrong sport.
I have had several wrecks in my sedans and openwheel cars, and when i have realized that i am now just along for the ride, i am able to relax and take whats coming to me(impact) because i know that i have done everything that i possibly could to protect myself.
if i still end up seriously hurt, then thats the risk i took, but i will be damned if i am going to be the guy laying in a hospital bed, or piloting a wheelchair thinking "if only i had spent those few bucks for this device.

I always go by the saying "its better to have and not need, than to need and not have"
have fun, drive it like you stole it, but also make yourself as safe as you can for the unexpected.
Josh(a HANS user)

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Josh Pitt
AZ Region

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NASA requires Hans and right side nets.

What does grand am require?

I've got one of the original Hans devices. No sliding tether, no quick release. Never go out without it, or any of my nomex for that matter, whether it's a race or a de. I've done that since I started and I guess I'm just used to it.

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MPR22
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quote:
Originally posted by JimEli:
While I race with a HANS, I agree with Bill here and oppose adopting mandatory head & neck restraint regulations. Safety quickly becomes a slippery slope, and for those demanding a H&N restraint, I ask where do you stand on these higher requirements?

SA2005 helmet standard vs. older.
Closed face vs. open face helmets.
Fire system vs. fire extinguisher.
5, 6 or 7 point harness.
SFI 3.2A/1 two piece suit vs. a higher rated one piece.
Fire retardant underwear, balaclava, and shoes.
Non FIA seats allowed with seat braces.
How about a fuel cell?

We’ll soon need skis to negotiate this slope…

What would you recomend a loved one use if they get on the track. If my wife, son and daughter get into racing then they will have all of the above for saftey (sans fuel cell). If I demand that level of safety for them, then why would I do anything less. This is a fun but dangerous hobby. Do everything you can to WALK away from any incident.

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Michael Ross

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No problem...a donor saved my life! So I have no problem with people not wearing helmets!

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Paul McLester

Muda Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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[thumbsup] Fish!

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W. Bonsell
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I think we are deviating away from the initial intention of the thread. Of course safety is paramount and is their really an argument against the use of the hans type devise? Of course not.

But, the question is whether such a devise should be mandated! And then where does mandating end? I choose to currently not use one, but that may change in the near future. I would certainly insist that my son have one even if I had to buy it myself, but it should be a choice and not a mandated requirement. There are too many mandates in life as it is!

Bill

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William Bonsell
SCCA/ICSCC #26
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G. Davis Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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While I don't typically believe in mandated safety, I do think that your choice should come with the requisite risk. If you want to give up your insurance and drive naked, so be it. Just don't increase my costs to exercise your freedom [thumbsup]

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Glenn Davis

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quote:
Originally posted by Kent Carter:
My feeling is that your right to choose inadequate safety equipment ends at the point where the results lead to increased insurance costs for me.

quote:
Originally posted by G. Davis:
Just don't increase my costs to exercise your freedom [thumbsup]

How would increasing the costs to the point that nobody shows up to race effect you?

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Gatoratty Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Jim your argument is the epitome of the "slippery slope" if we didn't mandate suits, helmets, gloves, roll cages, belts, fire extinguishers, even more people could afford to race.....but nobody would provide the insurance to put on the event and no track would lease the track to an entity that didn't have insurance so in the end...no one would race. Racers always seem to find the money for tires and brake pads...I think they could afford a one time $600 purchase (less than a set of mounted Toyos)

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Paul McLester

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I've stood up at the CRB town hall the past couple years in favor on mandating a H&N device. I get a lot of crap for it in my region (where I am the RE) and occasionally at the convention. Time has proven with these devices that they do prevent serious injuries in some crashes. Its worth the potential risks to mandate them. I bought a HANS a few years ago and within 2 sessions I forgot it was there. Last year I put the sliding tether on and it made things even better. prices start at $550 for a new device and I am one of the cheapest racers on earth. I think just as in the past with belts, roll cages and even helmets the time has come to mandate them.

db

cintibob
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My point is that of Bills and jim we have a base line of safety if I choose to go beyond that, good, if not I am a big boy. If we are so hot on mandating safety why don't we have fuel cells then? Or a fire system mandated rather than a fire bottle? Why is it not mandated that the pin on fire bottles is checked on grid? Or that one layer suit with underwear that provides 15 seconds protection good enough when alot of people can not exit in that time? I wear a 3 layer suit and a coolshirt and head sock under the helmet why isnt the 3 layer suit with underwear mandated? There was an article in GRM or sportscar recently on a guy in a miata that barely escaped burning to death and what they are doing to improve their cars safety. Why are we not mandating their improvements and on and on. I am more concerned with fire in cars that is where I want to spend big money on not something else. Later I may get a H and N system one of my choice not just a hans or defender.Have you guys read the article this month in sportscar? It states any incident with a H and N that causes engagement, the helmet should be replaced even if it shows no signs of damage it is a one time use item and it has suffered tensile load. So it could be mandated for a replacement under minor fender benders. I am not against every improvement but this one should be my choice.

[ 06-13-2010, 10:08 AM: Message edited by: cintibob ]

cintibob
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I did not mention SFI or FIA has no current lifing on H&N devices. So besides a mandated demand to replace the device on any incident the SCCA can mandate any date the rating expires ( like belts.) And don't get me started on replacing belts every 2 years on a car that has a top, kept in a garage, used 2 times a year with one used ten times a year and kept outside and may be open top.

GW
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I felt the same way as you do Bob when Nasa mandated side head restraints. After all, a neck restraint was mandatory, why did we need side restraints? But after suffering a mild concussion a few weeks ago I am very thankful for both mandates as it would have been a considerable worse injury if either restraint were missing. I have come to the conclusion that I must not be the sharpest tool in the box as I would not be using either of the devices unless they were mandatory. That is until I had the incident. And what a shame if I or anyone has to learn the hard way. I sure would be wishing I could turn the clock back. I think SCCA is on the right track and would encourage looking at side restraint devices as well.

Jamie Tucker Series Champ

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Really! People ares still driving race cars without a HANS (or an equivalent)? Personally, I don't care if you tie yourselves in the car with a rope as long as it does not affect me. If you get killed we will just put a check mark in the column of natural selection. On a side note if you are not driving hard enough to feel that you might have a serious crash eventually then you probably are leaving a lot of time on the track. There will be a time when I am going to send my car over the turn 17 wall at Sebring or into the turn 12 wall at Road Atlanta; I don't know when so I wear everything I can every time I go onto the track. There is no down side to wearing a HANS other than the cost which is very low compared to other things but the potential upside is your life. Do what you want but in my opinion the argument against mandating such a device is really no argument at all (and I hate being told what to do).

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JimEli Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Humans are incredibly poor at determining risk. My job involves the daily assessment and control of risk in a hazardous aviation environment and I’m a constant witness to this.

Bruce Schneier writes in “Beyond Fear” about perceived vs. actual risk:
• People exaggerate spectacular but rare risks and downplay common risks.
• People have trouble estimating risks for anything not exactly like their normal situation.
• Personified risks are perceived to be greater than anonymous risks.
• People underestimate risks they willingly take and overestimate risks in situations they can’t control.
• Last, people overestimate risks that are being talked about and remain an object of public scrutiny.

So, before a policy is adopted based upon irrational hysterical hullabaloo I would like to see an accurate risk study performed so we could make a rational decision.

I'm just saying.

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Racing has always been dangerous in comparison to other hobbies; no study needed for that. Injury's and deaths have occurred in all forms of motor sports that could have been avoided by the use of a HANS. That is easily verifiable thorough historical data. In fact you will find that a HANS provides more bang for the buck than a fire suit. There are way more front impacts then there are fires yet we wear fire suits as well. I too work in the aviation industry and have to abide by safety regulations that were developed for scenarios that most likely will never happen in a million years. In aviation we try to reduce risks at all cost; in racing we take risks in order to have fun. There is a big difference

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cintibob
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I appreciate all the comments especially the ones disagreeing with me. I wanted some perspective on how others feel since I was not for it. I was surprised that so many are so strong for mandating safety except one guy that said not the fuel cell, why stop at that point? I would like everyone to read GRM magazine, april 2010 issue page 103-109. Take a good look at the pictures especially the drivers suit, helmet and gloves. You can probably find the article on line or order it at GRM. Our region has had one death from fire around the last six months. Then tell me why we should not mandate a fuel cell and all the safety gear that driver had and all the improvements he is going to do to the car. Plus mandate that we are tested on exiting the car in 15 seconds in full gear once every year or we don't drive. If you guys are so serious on safety and never dreaming of sending yourself or loved ones out in a car without a H&N system then get real serious not half way. Write your district rep. tell them you want the fuel cell with metal enclosure like the IT guys have then a driveshaft loop, 3 layer suit not one layer with underwear or just 2 layer,a H&N system, fullface helmet with a headsock that covers the nose and a full fire system with at least 3 nozzles with 2 on the driver, maybe a system just for the tank, no small hand bottle, require the exit test and ask for it as soon as possible. Then I will believe you are serious about safety. Tell your friends to post here I am interested and write their district Rep. for all the improvements not just a H&N system. Its your life.

fishguyaz
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quote:
Originally posted by JimEli:

So, before a policy is adopted based upon irrational hysterical hullabaloo I would like to see an accurate risk study performed so we could make a rational decision.
[/QB]

Jim, I respect your opinion, but for me the simple study is a visual one on TV. look at EVERY professional series and what is hanging from the helmets of the all the drivers. its a HANS device; thats a good enough study for me.
I actually cannot think of one series that is big enough for TV coverage that allows any of its participant to race without a H+N device.

honestly, i am surprised that there even needs to be a rule for this in the first place. to me its as basic as the notion of wearing a seat belt in a car.

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Josh Pitt
AZ Region

Kent Carter Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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I'll answer the fuel cell question: The Miata fuel tank has proven itself superior to a fuel in most situations. IMAGINE trying to put in a fuel cell that would be as well-protected and well-plumbed as the Miata factory tank.

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Do I turn my 99 Hard S into a killerfast SM or seek a donor?

JimEli Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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quote:
Originally posted by fishguyaz:
quote:
Originally posted by JimEli:

So, before a policy is adopted based upon irrational hysterical hullabaloo I would like to see an accurate risk study performed so we could make a rational decision.

Jim, I respect your opinion, but for me the simple study is a visual one on TV. look at EVERY professional series and what is hanging from the helmets of the all the drivers. its a HANS device; thats a good enough study for me.
I actually cannot think of one series that is big enough for TV coverage that allows any of its participant to race without a H+N device.

honestly, i am surprised that there even needs to be a rule for this in the first place. to me its as basic as the notion of wearing a seat belt in a car. [/QB]

Might as well go with the mandated FIA advanced helmet standards too. I think the prices for those start around $3K. Like I said, I wear a HANS, but I advocate a minimum vs. a maximum standard.

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cnj
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quote:
Originally posted by cintibob:
I appreciate all the comments especially the ones disagreeing with me. I wanted some perspective on how others feel since I was not for it. I was surprised that so many are so strong for mandating safety except one guy that said not the fuel cell, why stop at that point? I would like everyone to read GRM magazine, april 2010 issue page 103-109. Take a good look at the pictures especially the drivers suit, helmet and gloves. You can probably find the article on line or order it at GRM. Our region has had one death from fire around the last six months. Then tell me why we should not mandate a fuel cell and all the safety gear that driver had and all the improvements he is going to do to the car. Plus mandate that we are tested on exiting the car in 15 seconds in full gear once every year or we don't drive. If you guys are so serious on safety and never dreaming of sending yourself or loved ones out in a car without a H&N system then get real serious not half way. Write your district rep. tell them you want the fuel cell with metal enclosure like the IT guys have then a driveshaft loop, 3 layer suit not one layer with underwear or just 2 layer,a H&N system, fullface helmet with a headsock that covers the nose and a full fire system with at least 3 nozzles with 2 on the driver, maybe a system just for the tank, no small hand bottle, require the exit test and ask for it as soon as possible. Then I will believe you are serious about safety. Tell your friends to post here I am interested and write their district Rep. for all the improvements not just a H&N system. Its your life.

With due respect (and that seldom happens on this forum..) yours is a specious argument. You have asked for thoughts on mandating head restraint systems (you are against it) and now appear to insist that anyone who supports that mandate must now also support every other safety rule you can think of - or be considered hypocritical.

The advancement of safety in motor sports is inexorable and incremantal. Safety rails, corner stations, ambulances, safety belts, fire suits, cages, fire systems all happened over time. In retrospect all these changes clearly should have happened far faster and many more drivers would have lived or stayed out of wheel chairs. I have no doubt that future generations of drivers will look back on us with the same view of wonder that I look back at the drivers of the 60's as a bunch of lunatics.

I get that racing draws people of individualistic temperaments, after all this is not exactly a team sport. So its not a surprise that none of us like being told what to do . My point is that its somewhat oxymoronic to think that racing drivers are capable of great judgement on safety issues. Who of us does not deify Senna for his insane passes regardless of the danger? We're simply not rational on this subject.

So I actually think that we should all be removed from the decision process and for our own good all of the issues above (fire underwear, exiting testing, full fire system, etc) should be mandated because we are not smart enough to vote collectively on it for ourselves. This of course is what happens in Pro racing where most of this is already in place. As a racer led club we continue to lag behind the Pro's in fundamental safety. I wish for our families sake it were not so.

Craig J

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I can see both sides of the argument, but your personal safety becomes an issue for me when it curtails my ability to go play my dangerous sport.

The US is a litigious nation. In Europe and Canadia, the attitude is more along the lines of, if you go do something dangerous and hurt yourself, you can't hold anyone liable. In the US lawsuits have greatly impeded peoples' ability to go play their dangerous games. Fun recreational areas get closed down. What you can do in them gets greatly limited. The cost to play in them skyrockets.

I'm both a safety professional and a player of dangerous games. While I'm responsible for the safety of naive subjects, I see the personal safety of informed people playing dangerous games as their choice. People who play dangerous games sometimes get hurt. That's the nature of the game. When people do get hurt, and it could have been easily preventable, and the powers that be decide that I can't play my dangerous game anymore due to what someone else did...

[ 06-14-2010, 01:31 AM: Message edited by: Keith in WA ]

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Keith Novak
(Will work for tires)

Qik Nip Verified Driver Made Donation to Website Series Champ
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I've had a H&N restraint since 2005 and got a HANS in 2008. I installed a wet foam fire system in 2007 (two nozzles on me, one under the hood)and have a right side net.

But being Libertarian by nature, I am far from a safety Nazi and really don't care what others choose to do. As mentioned well up in this thread, however, if we don't mitigate the collective risk, the insurance costs go up and eventually the playground gets shuttered.
Rick

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TKraft Verified Driver
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When the insurance company tells you that all cars must be radio controled,then what will you do.

Kent Carter Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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quote:
Originally posted by TKraft:
When the insurance company tells you that all cars must be radio controled,then what will you do.

1. Curse those who failed to take adequate risk management steps and allowed it to get to that point.
2. Decide whether the coverage is needed. I already question the magnitude of the coverage provided.

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Do I turn my 99 Hard S into a killerfast SM or seek a donor?

David Dewhurst
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quote:
Originally posted by Qik Nip:
if we don't mitigate the collective risk, the insurance costs go up and eventually the playground gets shuttered.
Rick

Rick, this is not a slam towards you or anyone else that views the sky falling if we don't pony up to a H&N restraint. Is there any documented evidence that says our play toys will get shuttered? [Confused] I understand the safety deal. I have an Isaac.

--------------------
Have Fun [Wink]

David Dewhurst
CenDiv
Milwaukee Region
Spec Miata #14

Drago Verified Driver Made Donation to Website Series Champ
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quote:
Originally posted by TKraft:
When the insurance company tells you that all cars must be radio controlled,then what will you do.

I was actually pretty good at that as well [Smile] I did get kicked out of the class and forced to move up though.. Something about it is not normal to have a $500 spec car in a $100 spec car class, let alone an equal back up car. [Big Grin] But that is another story.

--------------------
Jim Drago
East Street Auto Salvage
jdrago1@aol.com
2006-2007 Mid-West Division
07,09 June Sprints Champion

EAST STREET RACING

Kent Carter Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
Future Never Has Been

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quote:
Originally posted by Drago:
quote:
Originally posted by TKraft:
When the insurance company tells you that all cars must be radio controlled,then what will you do.

I was actually pretty good at that as well [Smile] I did get kicked out of the class and forced to move up though.. Something about it is not normal to have a $500 spec car in a $100 spec car class, let alone an equal back up car. [Big Grin] But that is another story.
Some things never change.... [duck]

[ 06-14-2010, 03:11 PM: Message edited by: Drago ]

--------------------
Do I turn my 99 Hard S into a killerfast SM or seek a donor?

Drago Verified Driver Made Donation to Website Series Champ
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quote:
Originally posted by Kent Carter:
quote:
Originally posted by Drago:
quote:
Originally posted by TKraft:
When the insurance company tells you that all cars must be radio controlled,then what will you do.

I was actually pretty good at that as well [Smile] I did get kicked out of the class and forced to move up though.. Something about it is not normal to have a $500 spec car in a $100 spec car class, let alone an equal back up car. [Big Grin] But that is another story.
Some things never change.... [duck]
And they didnt even have FPR's [Razz]

--------------------
Jim Drago
East Street Auto Salvage
jdrago1@aol.com
2006-2007 Mid-West Division
07,09 June Sprints Champion

EAST STREET RACING

Kent Carter Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
Future Never Has Been

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quote:
Originally posted by Drago:
quote:
Originally posted by Kent Carter:
quote:
Originally posted by Drago:
quote:
Originally posted by TKraft:
When the insurance company tells you that all cars must be radio controlled,then what will you do.

I was actually pretty good at that as well [Smile] I did get kicked out of the class and forced to move up though.. Something about it is not normal to have a $500 spec car in a $100 spec car class, let alone an equal back up car. [Big Grin] But that is another story.
Some things never change.... [duck]
And they didnt even have FPR's [Razz]
Really? I thought you only knew one way to cheat! [rolling on floor laughin] [duck] [duck]

Sorry, Jim... I just could NOT resist. [help]

--------------------
Do I turn my 99 Hard S into a killerfast SM or seek a donor?

Qik Nip Verified Driver Made Donation to Website Series Champ
Loose Member '09 & '10 Great Lakes Regional Points Champion

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quote:
Originally posted by David Dewhurst:
quote:
Originally posted by Qik Nip:
if we don't mitigate the collective risk, the insurance costs go up and eventually the playground gets shuttered.
Rick

Is there any documented evidence that says our play toys will get shuttered? [Confused] I understand the safety deal. I have an Isaac.
David:
Here's the cascade ... Insurance costs get out of hand, race registratrion fees increase, so fewer folks can afford to race, total entry revinues drop and the track goes belly up.
Rick

--------------------
Fortune Cookie Racing SM 60
Directions for use: Race, Rumple, Repair ... Repeat!

David Dewhurst
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Does anyone have any facts that insurance costs go up because SCCA dosen't demand H&N restraints? [help]

Or is this whole deal that SFI is applying force to the SCCA for their manufactures that pay the SFI bills? [Confused]

EDIT: Just sent an e-mail to the Milwaukee region R.E. asking what/if any cost each entrie increases have been for the last four years because H&N restraints are not required/mandatory.

--------------------
Have Fun [Wink]

David Dewhurst
CenDiv
Milwaukee Region
Spec Miata #14

Jamie Tucker Series Champ

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quote:
Originally posted by Drago:
quote:
Originally posted by Kent Carter:
quote:
Originally posted by Drago:
quote:
Originally posted by TKraft:
When the insurance company tells you that all cars must be radio controlled,then what will you do.

I was actually pretty good at that as well [Smile] I did get kicked out of the class and forced to move up though.. Something about it is not normal to have a $500 spec car in a $100 spec car class, let alone an equal back up car. [Big Grin] But that is another story.
Some things never change.... [duck]
And they didnt even have FPR's [Razz]
No but you could take a few windings out of the motor if they were electric!

--------------------
2010 ARRC Champion
2010 CFR Champion
2010 instigator of the year
2010/2011 Andrew Von C Wingman

Drago Verified Driver Made Donation to Website Series Champ
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quote:
Originally posted by Jamie Tucker:
quote:
Originally posted by Drago:
quote:
Originally posted by Kent Carter:
quote:
Originally posted by Drago:
quote:
Originally posted by TKraft:
When the insurance company tells you that all cars must be radio controlled,then what will you do.

I was actually pretty good at that as well [Smile] I did get kicked out of the class and forced to move up though.. Something about it is not normal to have a $500 spec car in a $100 spec car class, let alone an equal back up car. [Big Grin] But that is another story.
Some things never change.... [duck]
And they didnt even have FPR's [Razz]
No but you could take a few windings out of the motor if they were electric!
Motors were sealed, just like SSM [Wink] [duck]

--------------------
Jim Drago
East Street Auto Salvage
jdrago1@aol.com
2006-2007 Mid-West Division
07,09 June Sprints Champion

EAST STREET RACING

Jamie Tucker Series Champ

ARRC 2010 Champ

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Thats what they kept telling me! [Smile]

--------------------
2010 ARRC Champion
2010 CFR Champion
2010 instigator of the year
2010/2011 Andrew Von C Wingman

Zauskycop Verified Driver
Member

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Sealed, schmealed. Change the springs, cut the brushes, some emery cloth on your commutator and let that baby rip. Never saw a sealed motor I couldn't make faster...

--------------------
Tracy Ramsey
Team Blenderblaster

David Dewhurst
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Come on boys, lets all play with pine wood derby cars. Same $hit different class. BUT, it will bring out the good ol creativity. [shame]

--------------------
Have Fun [Wink]

David Dewhurst
CenDiv
Milwaukee Region
Spec Miata #14

cintibob
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I talked to the guy that is pushing this with the BOD. He said he is pushing the requirement because it is now an industry standard no mention of insurance. I have been told by someone else those standards are from the circle track guys. I guess they feel they are regular local guys like us. I have been told this is probably a done deal. A friend has searched and found only 4 models certified. Those 4 have variations to make 8. The july Sportscar mag. states that the de-fender has no recertification procedures just a discount on a new one. So how often are we going to have to recertify or replace? No one knows yet. Also in the article one person states even in a minor incident that the H&N is engaged a tensil load has been applied to the helmet and it should be replaced even if there is no sign of damage to the helmet. It is a one time use item just like a air bag. If this is true and we don't replace it why do we have the H&N? I would like to add my fiancee has decided to buy one next year to race in, her choice, with no imput one way or another from me. Like she would listen to me anyway Ha Ha Ha.

Dusty Bottoms Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
99 all the way!

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quote:
Originally posted by Drago:
quote:
Originally posted by Jamie Tucker:
quote:
Originally posted by Drago:
quote:
Originally posted by Kent Carter:
quote:
Originally posted by Drago:
quote:
Originally posted by TKraft:
When the insurance company tells you that all cars must be radio controlled,then what will you do.

I was actually pretty good at that as well [Smile] I did get kicked out of the class and forced to move up though.. Something about it is not normal to have a $500 spec car in a $100 spec car class, let alone an equal back up car. [Big Grin] But that is another story.
Some things never change.... [duck]
And they didnt even have FPR's [Razz]
No but you could take a few windings out of the motor if they were electric!
Motors were sealed, just like SSM [Wink] [duck]
Come on, we all know about twisting that armature around to change the timing on a spec timing sealed motor class. That and using bearings on a bushed class. [Big Grin]

--------------------
"Your victory is tainted! Asterisk! Asterisk!!!"--Lisa Simpson

Kent Carter Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
Future Never Has Been

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industry standard = insurance requirement

... and you replace the tethers after an impact, not the helmet or HANS (unless it is the mother of all impacts).

--------------------
Do I turn my 99 Hard S into a killerfast SM or seek a donor?

David Dewhurst
Veteran Member

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The info reply I received from the region with reference to not having a H&N & insurance costs going up would seem to not be an issue at this time. Over the last 4 years the per entry insurance cost has been plus or minus a dollar.

--------------------
Have Fun [Wink]

David Dewhurst
CenDiv
Milwaukee Region
Spec Miata #14

dtfastbear Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
faster than the average bear...

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quote:
Originally posted by David Dewhurst:
Come on boys, lets all play with pine wood derby cars. Same $hit different class. BUT, it will bring out the good ol creativity. [shame]

Yep... from the 24 Hours of LeMons Pinewood Derby at the Sears Pointless event earlier this year:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GkPCBMNEy4g

--------------------
NASA Nor Cal SM series Director
www.molaps.com

Winner - Ford Racing Mustang Challenge Driver Shootout

Evil Genius Racing / Race Engineering / Stewart Development

cintibob
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Kent; In the sportscar article it states by Mr Curtis of G-Force, Dir. of marketing and sales if too much force is applied to the helmet you will see spider webbing or cracking on inside or outside and have it professionally inspected before considering putting it back in service. That said he noted they are one time use items like airbags. Later it says just to check tethers for fraying or cuts if so then replace tethers. HJC Motorsports agrees once any kind of incident that H&N is engaged the helmet did suffer a kind of tensile load while no visable damage there is a chance the helmet has been compromised consequently recommends replacing the helmet. All of this is mute, I think, because the odds are for passing the requirement for H&N restraint. So the SCCA can say we take every precaution if sued. And I believe the checking of these devices will be left wanting and some of the equipment out there will be no better than not having one. Page 76 of GCR says in short throughout the season a check of condition and legality of drivers safety equip. should be periodically done in inpound. I have never had that done. Also I have wrecked my car and totally bent right front susp. the car was never checked or noted in logbook or reinspected the next weekend. My friend totaled his car and nothning was ever noted in logbook. That is just two incidents I know of. Just seems to be a feel good move by BOD with no real enforcement of the condition of the safety equip.

Bill Pruitt Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
You know you miss him...

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There is another side. When NASA mandated head/neck restraints I quit NASA and with SCCA merging two regions it halved my race events, which tipped the scale for me to sell the car and give it up.
It is racing. Helmets, ok. Mandasting full helmets, not ok. Gloves, firesuit, socks and shoes, ok. Mandating 5 layer Sparco apparel, not ok.
The insurance argument is a canard. List the perils, suggest the level of equipment and have the participant sign a waiver.
Note if you will, neither open events sponsored by SCCA nor time trials sanctioned by NASA require the single most basic safety requirement, a roll cage. Persuade me that the insurance company will insure an event where an inexperienced driver, driving sub standard track equipment (his hot rod driver) over his head with sub standard brakes, tires and no cage, and encouraged to go as fast as he can (time trial); but will pale because the club racer isn't wearing a HANS. I was born at night, just not last night.
I'm not a poor man and the $700 was meager in comparison to a pro engine, but enough was enough, I voted with my feet.

Keith in WA Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
Pack Fodder

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Waivers generally aren't worth the paper they're written on, from what I've heard. I don't remember much on the subject but I do remember that even though you may sign the paper, you don't have the ability to waive the rights of other people like your family members.

--------------------
Keith Novak
(Will work for tires)

 
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