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Author Topic: Mid Ohio race 7/13
Qik Nip Verified Driver Made Donation to Website Series Champ
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I understand that it took nearly 90 minutes to get the track cleared after the two car (PTE) incident Sunday in Thunder Valley. Initially I was a bit pi----d when we were pulled off the track after just three laps, but it was apparently worse that it appeared. Anyone heard anything about the condition of the driver of the Focus?
Rick

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The driver did go to the hospital and was released. Leo told me he had a few broken ribs and his back was sore.

They took the car back to impound. All the safety equipment was intact. The car is totaled.

Oh, it was a SF not a PTE car.

I think NASA needs to be able to have a more flexible schedule. If you put the track to Max capacity the likelihood of down time is much greater and should be planed for. I was as well very disappointed the actual time we had under green. Not a very good return on my investment.

--------------------
Ralph Provitz
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I'm glad the driver is OK - that Focus was smooshed.

NASA screwed Group C all weekend (SM, PT, and SF). They shortened our track time every freakin session to stay on schedule.

I doubt I will renew my NASA license next year.

-Denny

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Ralph:
Agreed. I still wonder why it too so long to clear up the carnage. Did it take a great deal of time to get the driver out? From my peek in the one drive by, it appeared to be a drag it on the rollback operation and put down the oil dry. I would have guessed 15 minutes max (after ther driver was out)

As for the schedule flexibility issue, with the addition of the Yokohama Cup run group, the proverbial three pound bag had more like four in it (IMHO). In NASA's defense, I understand that M/O has a no racing past 7:30 rule, so they were seriously time constrained with that wreck.
Rick

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I agree on NASA, I think he Championship race is great, but the normal weekends are not nmuch fun? It is like a traffic jam at most races I have been to? I don't know the solution as long as they are trying to accomodate all of these cars? But in birmingham this year, it was similiar, but we did get our track time.
Jim

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Denny - I'm right there with you. We had the largest run group and treated us like the bad boys. Sure, we have a drifter or two that caused some problems, but to use that as the excuse to get back on schedule is getting old. I can understand calling our race or qualifying session for a safety reason, but when the next run group is going out as we come in kinda makes it crying wolf. Btw, this was NOT the case in Sunday's race. I will assume that the "sore back" was what triggered the caution and rightly so. I just think they should have regridded us for a restart, but that is just wishful thinking. If this trend continues, it might be a good reason (along with the Runoffs moving to Road America) to take our 35 car field back to SCCA. [Wink]

At least it was a fun weekend talking to friends all over the paddock. Denny, we need to get you back into the SM group...those PT drivers are idiots!

Oh, and even though it was a Focus driver, I glad the driver is ok too. It looked like quite a shot. [yep]

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David Watts
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I think NASA is at a crossroads to what they want in one weekend. IMHO HPDE, TT and RACING is just too much for one weekend.

It looks good on paper but loses its luster when put to reality.

HPDE and TT seemed to have a much better return on investment for the participant. Maybe I should think about that as an option insted of racing with NASA

At this point I will be putting my future NASA entrys on hold until I see the racing groups getting a better value for the dollar.

I agree Jim, they have a great National race. From what I see, a lot of the guys are just doing the minimum regional races they can so they can qualify.

--------------------
Ralph Provitz
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quote:
HPDE, TT and RACING is just too much for one weekend
Bing, bing, bing. Johnny, tell him what he's won. [yep]

Dave - we need to paddock next to you guys. Bennett and Post looked like they were having more fun with Schultz's scooter than racing.

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WOW!

Which group is it that "should" loose track time?

Racers are not usually the biggest group at most NASA events. I know we think we are the most important ones (individually and as a group) but come on guys, get real!

--------------------
Tony Senese
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It IS a challenge to schedule all those things, Ralph. And yes, I think NASA is at a decision nexus as well.

I hope that weekends will soon begin to split off by category. One weekend racing and DE and specialty groups and DE and such on others.

I know it's hard to balance though. We've discussed alot of these issues in the SE and it's more difficult than I thought.

I don't know much of the issues this past weekend, but it sounds like a combination of events led up to some bad experiences for some of the participants. I'm sure they will be addressing the issues.

thanks

Jason

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Another 2 cents worth......
If racing is run on separate weekends from DE, lots of the new guys that are willing and able to race will not be exposed to it, or will be less exposed. 90% of our comp school drivers come out of the DE ranks. Most of them progress to the instructor level and then decide to go broke and take the racing plunge.

In our region we usually do not have a separtae group for TT. We just don't have enough of an interest there. We run those guys in the instructor group or HPDE 4 and they have to obey the passing rules for that group. So no net lose of track time for the other groups.

Personally, I hope we never divide weekends into racing and non-racing groups. I think we will loose something valuable. I still instruct HPDE from time to time. I find it very valuable.

--------------------
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Wow, what a cluster F.

Two laps qualifying on Saturday, 4 on Sunday, a 2 lap feature on Sunday. Throw in the last race at Putnam with no qualifying on Sunday and it can only be said, NO FUN.

The old NASA was fun, but something needs to change or your success will be your downfall.

Pat Slattery

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I agree the weekend was a mess. A couple laps of qualifying on Saturday was a joke. The 20 minute transponder check in the morning should be used as another qualifying session. We should get some kind of refund!
Howard

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quote:
Originally posted by nohairracing:
We should get some kind of refund!
Howard

Howard. You are on to something here!

I very seriously think NASA ought to give us a $200 refund (or discount) on the Nationals registration. We got screwed out of half Saturday's qualifying, endured a drug out double yellow that afternoon, and got hosed with a three lap Sunday race.

At $399, it looks like we got about half. Anybody else out there agree?
Rick

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I know that I don't feel like I got my moneys worth this weekend at all.

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Ralph Provitz
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The only good thing to come from this weekend was that the young beaver got past Bennett but Bennett stuck his nose right up beaver, bumped the beaver and got past. A shame it was a short race, I wanted some of the beaver too! [Smash]
Howard

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Jeeze Howard, don't you think you're being a little hard on the Beaver?

--------------------
Tony Senese
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That is the only levity coming from this weekend. Good one Howard. [Smile]

Pat

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It was a disappointing weekend to say the least. I go to work all month with the sole purpose of getting 70 minutes of racing. Therefore, I am making it my 2nd job, no I’ll make it my mission in life to get more track time for me and my fellow SM drivers. As my first task, I’m asking for everyone to come up with one solution to the problems this weekend. I am going to list a couple issues I saw, and a couple that we won’t discuss.
Issues I need help with!
1. Body contact:
a. At both drivers meetings the race director said, “You can’t win the race in the first turn, but you can lose it, yet in Saturday’s race we had major contact in the first turn.
i. Possible solutions:
1. More severe penalties for at fault contact.
2. More driver restraint – this probably won’t happen without #1.
3. ???
2. Off track excursions
a. Saturday’s race was cut short because a SM driver was off in a turn the corner workers consider unsafe.
i. Possible solution –
1. Car control clinic, drills, more seat time before comp license.
2. ???
3. Schedule (too many race groups)
a. Consider this solved! Dave said, “It won’t happen again”. Let’s hold him to it.
b. Late SM race
i. This is a rotating schedule and we were the early race the last time at Mid-Ohio, so we should be right in third middle next time.

4. ??? – please help
We Won’t discuss:
1. WEATHER…in my humble opinion this was the cause of most of our problems this weekend.
2. Medical race stop…I won’t even acknowledge complaining with regard to that stoppage.

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I think the communication line is weak. No one in control wants to let racers know what is going on.

Had I known a fellow racers was stuck in a car waiting to be removed you would not be upset, but most were not told.

I do think they have way to many classes and no room for error. We have had races were they never did post finishing order or qualifying order for hours upon hours.

Dq's that no one was apprized of until reading it in the my laps.com report.

Pat

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I agree with everyone above about being a waste of time and money. I also know that a significant amount of us come over from SCCA. With the runoffs being at Road America it will certainly change some things for midwesterns.

Back to NASA. I like many of the things they do. The issue for me is that there is no room for error with the car counts and schedule. If there is weather or incidents there is no possible way to get it all done. When you have two twenty minute sessions that start with the first car on the track and if you are at the back you loose 5 minutes it sucks.

As far as body contact, you just can't have that many cars with different speeds on a one lane track. If we are at Daytona then fine put 100 of us out there. We do bump into each other, but no other group goes four wide at the end of the backstretch and usually makes it through with no issues. I do not believe that we are the problem in the majority of instances. The Saturday race incidents were caused by no qualifying for half of the field. There were some fast cars which had no time and were moving up at the start. Sunday's incident could happen to any of us and I don't think any of us are upset they stopped the race, if I am in trouble I hope they stop it for me. That being said we should have a restart.

Dennis

Dennis Brown
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The funny thing is that Howard did not even race. He wants his money back and you never saw him on any time sheets.

As far as Howard wanting to have some of the beaver I just wonder who is going to hold the cigar.

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Patrick:
I don't disagree with most of your proffered solutions, but the problem is that the NASA schedule was blivet (two pounds of poopey in a one pound bag). The answer to that problem isn't more penalties for the inevitable.

The issue was that there was simply no time for any schedule slippage. What running a ten to twelve weekend schedule (SCCA and NASA) for the last five years has taught me is that there are always body contact incidents, rain, timing failures, etc. The issue was too many run groups.

I think NASA is going to have to deal with that logjam, or it will suffer the loss of racers over time - especially as SCCA is awakening to the presence of a competitor and is responding. [Smash]

BTW, I still think this weekend's Group C participants deserve some financial consideration. We were short changed and good customer relations requires an offset.
Rick

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A fellow racer, who shall remain nameless, had a good idea: Have a remedial group. Each bonehead stunt performed on track earns 1 remedial point. If a driver gets 12 points he/she has to race in the remedial group. No plan so far on how to get out of the 'R' group.

Edited to preserve content...

[edit: It has been brought to my attention that I have earned my first point. I apologize for offending some of you. -Denny]

[ 07-14-2008, 09:08 PM: Message edited by: d mathias ]

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Tom Kearney
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*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

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Tom:
Knowing Denny, I can assure you he meant no disrespect. How about Bonehead Group?
Rick

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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis Brown:
The funny thing is that Howard did not even race. He wants his money back and you never saw him on any time sheets.

As far as Howard wanting to have some of the beaver I just wonder who is going to hold the cigar.

Hey, I race under assumed names. Next time it may be YOUR name! You hold the cigar. [Smash]
Howard

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Unfortunately some of the mid and back pack guys qualify well in the rain and have trouble at the front at the start of the race. If you looked at the grid sheet for Saturday it was a recipe for disaster!
As Dennis said, half the field didn't get a qualifying time. Use the 20 minutes (in NASA terms 12 minutes)of practice as a qualifier. Everyone I saw in the practice were going awful fast for just checking their transponders.

Thophies for the Bonehead group? small smashed cars, body parts?

One driver I won't mention had spins, 4 wheel off road excursions and/or wreaks everyday. I personally saw him go off 3 times in qualifying. The Nasa people should penalize guys like this!!!! SCCA would.
Howard

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It should be noted that our region attempted to have two "Guest" race groups with F2000 and Yokohama Cup...and right out of the gate Royce came out with "Sorry, I screwed up the schedule. It won't happen again." If they were having trouble filling out a weekend it would have made sense, but I think all the MidOhio races will be packed the closer we get to the Championship race.

If it had been a normal schedule, I doubt that our schedule would have been so strict, but we were planned to run pretty late without any backups. Most weekends at NASA are packed. This was one overstuffed.

I also have a beef (since there are a few NASA ears here) with the over use of the yellow flag. For a since car incident that was off track for 3 laps, there was a standing yellow two stations away, a waving 1 away, and a waving at the proper station. I can understand a 2nd yellow if the first is too close to the incident or if the flag station is hard to see, but you need to be aware not to cry wolf too many times.

Pat - It was good meeting you this weekend and I wish you luck with your list. One point I would make is that the Saturday incident was not an incident where any contact was "at fault". There was a lot of amazing driving from what I hear to prevent major carnage all because a driver in the 2nd row spun out in the first turn. All I would say is watch certain drivers, and if you start seeing a pattern, do not hesitate to call it like it is. Some people are always "having a bad day" at the track. Let's invite them to HPDE1. [Smile]

[soapbox] How do I get off this thing???

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David Watts
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Oh, sorry, Denny should come with a warning. He is not very PC. And the shorter Mathias, even less.

It's part of the reason we love them. [Razz] [tipsy] [fight]

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One suggestion would be to combine even more groups for the morning practice or do away with it all together and lengthen the other sessions a bit, session 1 is qualifying. I think that would work best, people can use test day if they want to practice? That would free up a lot of time

Jim

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Jim, then you lessen the appeal of NASA which was that you would get more track time than an SCCA event. But, lately that may not be the case anyway.

Pat

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quote:
Originally posted by Patrick Strehl:
*snip*
Issues I need help with!
1. Body contact:
a. At both drivers meetings the race director said, “You can’t win the race in the first turn, but you can lose it, yet in Saturday’s race we had major contact in the first turn.
i. Possible solutions:
1. More severe penalties for at fault contact.
2. More driver restraint – this probably won’t happen without #1.
3. ???
2. Off track excursions
a. Saturday’s race was cut short because a SM driver was off in a turn the corner workers consider unsafe.
i. Possible solution –
1. Car control clinic, drills, more seat time before comp license.
2. ???
3. Schedule (too many race groups)
a. Consider this solved! Dave said, “It won’t happen again”. Let’s hold him to it.
b. Late SM race
i. This is a rotating schedule and we were the early race the last time at Mid-Ohio, so we should be right in third middle next time.

4. ??? – please help
We Won’t discuss:
1. WEATHER…in my humble opinion this was the cause of most of our problems this weekend.
2. Medical race stop…I won’t even acknowledge complaining with regard to that stoppage.

That may be the most confusing "outline" I have ever seen. [tipsy] If that's part of the solution...
[help]

Steve D.

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quote:
Originally posted by pat slattery:
Had I known a fellow racers was stuck in a car waiting to be removed you would not be upset, but most were not told.

Sorry but the last thing any family/friend of this particular person is someone running up and down the grid shouting "We're extricating a driver, it'll be a while." Silence is golden in this case.

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All this has happened before, and will happen again

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The wreck on Sunday is certainly not the issue with me or anyone I talked with. The issues have fostered all year. We have had bad weather and overcrowded fields at almost all great lakes events. The problem is a schedule that does not have any margin for error for wrecks or weather. Dave said that he was sorry and the schedule seemed like a good idea in February. I am willing to give him a pass, but I am expecting more for my money. My calculations have the cost per lap based on entry fee almost double that of SCCA.

The next potential mess is Road America with F2000 invited, Porsche GT and what was a 3 hour enduro which is now 2 but you cannot register for.

Dennis

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I was taught as a kid that if you don't have anything nice to say don't say anything at all.
In this case I have to say something RIDICULOUS!

This weekend left such a bad taste in my mouth that I almost threw up!Don't get me wrong,I understand stopping the race to get the driver out of the car and to clean up the mess,but have you ever heard of a word called RESTART.For the people out there that doesn't know what this means,it's when something that was stopped will get to go again.

I thought they should have restarted us and shortened the class or school after us to make up for [censored] us on Sat.I like how they asked us in the driver's meeting if we had any question,someone asked if they would add the lost time from Sat.on to Sun.race and how it went in one ear and out the other!

On the way home I felt like someone beet me with a hammer and stole my wallet! [fight] [banghead]

If you think about it,our group paid about $85.00 per 10 min. or $8.50 per min.of track time. I'M IN THE WRONG BUSINESS!!

I would like to see some kind of refund out of this!

--------------------
Bob
!KUCH!

"All my drinking buddies have a racing problem"

Jeff D
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quote:
Originally posted by nohairracing:
Unfortunately some of the mid and back pack guys qualify well in the rain and have trouble at the front at the start of the race.

Hey! I resemble that remark....the first part at least. [Smile]

--------------------
Jeff Davidson
NASA Great Lakes Region
#27 Spec-Miata
Chief of Grid - MW Region

Patrick Strehl Verified Driver
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quote:
Originally posted by Steve D.:
quote:
Originally posted by Patrick Strehl:
*snip*
Issues I need help with!
1. Body contact:
a. At both drivers meetings the race director said, “You can’t win the race in the first turn, but you can lose it, yet in Saturday’s race we had major contact in the first turn.
i. Possible solutions:
1. More severe penalties for at fault contact.
2. More driver restraint – this probably won’t happen without #1.
3. ???
2. Off track excursions
a. Saturday’s race was cut short because a SM driver was off in a turn the corner workers consider unsafe.
i. Possible solution –
1. Car control clinic, drills, more seat time before comp license.
2. ???
3. Schedule (too many race groups)
a. Consider this solved! Dave said, “It won’t happen again”. Let’s hold him to it.
b. Late SM race
i. This is a rotating schedule and we were the early race the last time at Mid-Ohio, so we should be right in third middle next time.

4. ??? – please help
We Won’t discuss:
1. WEATHER…in my humble opinion this was the cause of most of our problems this weekend.
2. Medical race stop…I won’t even acknowledge complaining with regard to that stoppage.

That may be the most confusing "outline" I have ever seen. [tipsy] If that's part of the solution...
[help]

Steve D.

Sorry steve it looked much better in Word. Anyhing other than sarcasm to add?

--------------------
Great Lakes SM Series Director

ESD
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Patrick:
I'm going to say this once more (as have a half dozen others here)

THERE ARE TOO MANY GROUPS.

That problem isn't solved by MORE of anything. [Smash]

IT'S LESS GROUPS / SESSIONS !!!
Rick [banghead]

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I think what would help is if it was posted how many laps we get. Not "time" on track. Don't think it is a fix all but it would help.

Qualifying = 10 laps
Race = 20 laps

In group C we ate up 8 minutes getting to our start.

much less of a gamble for the participants.

--------------------
Ralph Provitz
#38
2008 WHRRI SM Champion
2008 WHRRI Top 10 Overall
V2 Motorsports, Race support, Data Dude

B(Kuch) Kucera 45 Verified Driver
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Did anyone talk to Dave R. about this at the track?

I was just wondering what he thought about all this!

If I had a little more seat time with NASA I would have went up and said something.With only having two weekends with them I didn't want to make any waves!

--------------------
Bob
!KUCH!

"All my drinking buddies have a racing problem"

Dennis Brown Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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I talked with Dave at Putnam Park about the number of cars on the track. He gave me the rational behind his decision which I understand and don't fully buy, but it was well thought out. The number of cars was the length of the course and the number of passing zones and a FIA outline.

Like I said previously I want the time I paid for, period. If there are 90 cars on the track I am fine with this as long as I get my time on the track. When there are so many cars there are bound to be cars off in several corners especially in the rain. We go to a drivers meeting and they say we had to shorten the session because of safety. I agree with safety, the odds with that many cars is that there is no way to finish a session. It also takes about 10 minutes to get all of the cars on the track and around to the green flag which means our time is half gone.

I am waiting to see it get better and will use the next two races at Road America and Mid-Ohio as a gauge. My request is simple, I want the track time I paid for without excuses/reasons that are out of my control.

Dennis

Dennis Brown
SM #59

vpnwiz
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis Brown:
Like I said previously I want the time I paid for, period ... My request is simple, I want the track time I paid for without excuses/reasons that are out of my control.

Why are you driving with NASA or SCCA then? Rent the track yourself. You will get all the time you pay for.

I was in group C and got screwed with everyone else here. But what no one has mentioned is that groups A and B could have been royally SCREWED on their Saturday qualifying sessions when it opened up on them. Almost all of them were on slicks. But they stayed on the track.

In our qual session there was a guy off in china beach and one off at the end of 9. Both VERY bad places to be off. One person screws up their braking and what, another repeat of last year's disasterous wreck? Which also happened in the wet btw.

You guys are blaming Dave for the schedule when what you should be doing is finding the guys who went off and giving them a [shame] and a [Smash]

If group A and B could keep it on the track in the wet why couldn't we? That's what I want to know.

Patrick

--------------------
Patrick Smith
#14 NASA Performance Touring
 -

Dennis Brown Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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You are correct renting the track for myself is an option.

If you look at all my posts I have clearly stated that this is not an isolated issue only with this weekend. I like many of the things that NASA does, I just believe that NASA is at a crossroads and will have to decide if they are a racing organization or a HPDE organization.

I don't have the answer, I just feel as a person paying for a certain amount of track time I am not getting the value for my money.

Dennis

Dennis Brown
SM #59

pat slattery Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Patrick. you are blaming the drivers and not the source of the problem. Too many cars, and a schedule that has no room for error. The chances of everything falling into place with no delays are slim.

And renting out Mid Oh for your self is ridiculous.

Pat

--------------------
keeping the faith for the 1.6

Arrow Karts

Qik Nip Verified Driver Made Donation to Website Series Champ
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Patrick:
What Pat said (and now I'm done). [soapbox]
Rick

--------------------
Fortune Cookie Racing SM 60
Directions for use: Race, Rumple, Repair ... Repeat!

Patrick Strehl Verified Driver
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quote:
Originally posted by pat slattery:
Patrick. you are blaming the drivers and not the source of the problem. Too many cars, and a schedule that has no room for error. The chances of everything falling into place with no delays are slim.

And renting out Mid Oh for your self is ridiculous.

Pat

Pat,
In an effort to get this fixed, I am begging for your help. In your opinion, how should NASA create some room for error. As far as the number of cars go, are you saying there are too many SM's or just too many classes? One way would be to have fewer entries, but that sounds like it would be more expensive. Would that be another issue? Any other ideas. I know Nasa should be working on this, but until then, what would you do? Thanks again for any suggestions.

--------------------
Great Lakes SM Series Director

vpnwiz
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quote:
Originally posted by pat slattery:
And renting out Mid Oh for your self is ridiculous.

Not if this is your attitude: "My request is simple, I want the track time I paid for without excuses/reasons that are out of my control."

If you share that attitude your ONLY OPTION is to rent the track for yourself! You will never be happy in NASA or SCCA.

1+1=2

quote:
Originally posted by pat slattery:
you are blaming the drivers and not the source of the problem

You are incorrect. The constrained schedule was not the source of us getting the shaft. The drivers are indeed the source of the problems we had at Mid-Ohio. Cars were off in bad locations. They didn't get dropped in there by helicopter.

Groups A and B went off in worse conditions without a hitch. How did they do that on the same schedule we ran?

--------------------
Patrick Smith
#14 NASA Performance Touring
 -

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Your funny.

I guess NASA should never plan for delays or wreck when they schedule a race. I believe the C group had about 15 more cars more than the A or B group also.

Using your logic the only way to fix the problem is through the racers only and NASA has no responsibility. Yeah right.

Pat

Pat

--------------------
keeping the faith for the 1.6

Arrow Karts

Patrick Strehl Verified Driver
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by pat slattery:
[QB] Your funny.

I guess NASA should never plan for delays or wreck when they schedule a race. I believe the C group had about 15 more cars more than the A or B group also.

Using your logic the only way to fix the problem is through the racers only and NASA has no responsibility. Yeah right.

Pat,
I am often misunderstood, but being from Kentucky most people the benefit of doubt. [Big Grin] Let me attempt to make my objectives clear. I'm a racer. Not a very good one, but a racer none the less. I just want to figure out how to fix this so we can get more track time. I always heard if you want something done right, do it yourself. Thats what I'm trying to do. If enough of us come up with a realistic plan and endorse it they will have to act (I think?) [banghead]

--------------------
Great Lakes SM Series Director

 
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