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Author Topic: Mid Ohio race 7/13
vpnwiz
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quote:
Originally posted by pat slattery:
Your funny.

I guess NASA should never plan for delays or wreck when they schedule a race. I believe the C group had about 15 more cars more than the A or B group also.

Using your logic the only way to fix the problem is through the racers only and NASA has no responsibility. Yeah right.

Pat

Pat

You are going to try to quote my logic? Open up your field of vision and understand that there is more than one thing that went wrong.

Nowhere did I say that NASA retained no responsibility here.

If you just want to bitch, fine, but at least acknowledge that the schedule wasn't the only F-up with Grp C. The proof of that is Grps A and B getting all their time. It ain't just because we had 15 more drivers than A and B either.

Why not give Patrick Strehl some input on how to fix it?

Patrick

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Patrick Smith
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VPNWIZ, I reviewed your input to this thread and all you have done it blame the drivers and when someone make suggestions for NASA to address you have nothing but negative responses.

Am I missing something or are you a NASA official?

Pat

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Brian Cates
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I have a simple fix.

NASA needs a different business plan for each region. What works in CA does not work in Ohio.
They wanted the SM community in CA so look at all the incentives they came up with. West coast only.

Seems obvious to me the big problem this weekend was simply too many run groups. There will always be some wrecks and delays so that should be acounted for somewhat in the schedule.

Now the real question is what should be done in future situations similar to this weekend, outside of reducing the number of groups which is a given. (5 race groups would never fly in the Mid-Atlantic Region)

The Simple Fix!

1. Take track time from the HPDE groups and give to the racers to guarantee a minimum race time and or laps. Keep practice the way it is, on a fixed schedule and possibly allow a little float time for qualifying, say guarantee 75% of scheduled time.

Now I know some will say that's not fair but think about it in detail. Let's say I am new to racing and I want to get my feet wet so I take my street car and sign up for HPDE 1. I buy a set of brake pads and a a set of old tires and I am ready to go. Very little time and money invested in comparrison to a full time racer. Plus most HPDE guys don't tow for 8 hours to get to the track.

Now contrast with a racer who is competing for a championship and spending thousands of dollars a weekend. If I have done all of my racing with NASA I will have already spent a year with HPDE so I should be a valued customer and one that NASA wants to keep. (Think of the grocery stores with their Bonus Cards)

Basically the more money and time you spend with NASA, the more guaranteed track time you get!

I love NASA's HPDE program and I think it is a great part of the NASA experience.

Whoops, got to go pick up the little guy before the wife shoots me! Oh yea, she gets top prioity over racing! Guess I will have to finish rambling latter.

vpnwiz
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quote:
Originally posted by pat slattery:
VPNWIZ, I reviewed your input to this thread and all you have done it blame the drivers and when someone make suggestions for NASA to address you have nothing but negative responses.

Am I missing something or are you a NASA official?

Pat

IMO you've got a skewed frame of reference if you interpreted my suggestions of accountability for poor driving as a negative response.

And yes, you are missing something.

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Patrick Smith
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Patrick:
Somewhere between Drago's suggestion of combined warm up sessions and someone elses suggestion of shortened warm up and or qualifying sessions, there may be a solution.

While more track time was a NASA hallmark, the track time of my last three events turned out to be below than a typical SCCA event. So let's get over it and consider a change. As John said in the meeting Sunday, "At NASA we never say we can't because we haven't".

Having said that, if the race groups were to asceed to a contracted warm up / qualifying schedule, we'd need Dave's assurance that he won't add yet another guest group to soak up the spare time.
Rick

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Ok, P. Smith with his cheater Miata with too much power, I can concede that the limited track time was a function of BOTH a screwed up schedule AND some bad driving. So here is how we fix it:

1) Almost never invite "guest" groups to race with us as it creates some friction with the regulars. Not to mention that it reduced our track time from a "normal" weekend. I personally believe that most Mid-Ohio races will have more racers than any other track in the area as it is the Championship course. If the car count is historically low and you invite some others to the track, combine some of the other groups (HDPE 1 & 2, HDPE 3 & 4, or race groups) to compensate for the added sessions. Maybe a maximum amount of "run groups" of all flavors is what we need.

2) NASA needs to determine it's "core" market here in Great Lakes and stick with it. Catering to everyone is what gave SCCA 30 classes of 3 racers each.

3) Remove/reschool the problem drivers. In Group C, there were two drivers in particular that had more than a single incident (causing a yellow) all weekend. Time for more than just self reflection.

4) Here are some suggestions from the GTS director that I thought were good.
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Barr on NASAForums.com:
I would like to see the black flag used more often as well:

1. when a car is blocking (or a high HP car going too slow in corners ruining the race for lower HP cars stuck behind him)
2. when a car in one class is no where near another car in the same class, but is right in the middle of another class battle.
3. when a car has a second off all by itself.(his race is already ruined, so bring him in a make sure all is well)
_________________
Mark Barr

Try pushing those so we can weed out the bad apples. Combine that with Denny's program where you have to go back to putting the "R" for ROOKIE or Remedial or some other name for these black flag infractions. (With a little duck-tape magic, we can make that look like an "A" for [censored] ).

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David Watts
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vpnwiz
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I think I agree with everything you wrote, David. Well said.

I just started racing this year so I don't have the history of NASA vs. SCCA and why some switched back and forth, but I liked the extra time in between sessions last weekend. I would really like to see two warmup sessions of 25 mins each (another suggestion from nasaforums), one 20 minute just doesn't cut it. I would also like to see SM get their own run group and PT run all classes together but I don't know when that will happen.

Bennett was turning laps almost a half second faster than me so my 150hp wasn't good for too much!

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Patrick Smith
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This is a copy of the email that I sent to Dave Royce.

At this point for me (as well a 5 other cars from my area) have taken the rest of this yearís NASA races off our schedule. We all agree that there is too much of a risk for our investment that we wonít get enough track time. Even without guest groups. We are taking the wait and see if things change approach. We have not written off NASA and would like to run with them in the future. Just at this point the risk to us is too high to not get the value that we expect.

I think as long as NASA is going by time slots and no "published" leeway is left or no backup plan for when things go wrong. The risk is too high to lose out on valuable track time. I guess we measure the value/risk by Green flag laps vs the dollar.

In other words we want to feel confident before we sign up that we will get our green flag time. Even if a few run out of talent.

We donít feel that expecting the racers to stop asking for yellows, red and black flags are the solution. Hell even the pros ask for those flags. Yes it will help but it is not a fix all.

We relies that there is no way we could get a 100% guarantee. Things do happen. We understand that.

I know it is more of an issue with SM due to the nature of the class.

Currently for us, running with SCCA is the lower risk option.

None of use wants to compete in the Nationals. We just want to come out and race with our friends and have a good time. We do this for the fun of it and are not looking to be the next hot shoe in F1.

Again we have not written off NASA. We just want to see what solutions they have and how it works in reality before we reinvest in their product offerings.

Great luck too all and hope to see you all again soon. I am confident this will all get worked out.

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Ralph Provitz
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Sorry to hear that Ralph, I know my son Shawn does not want to come back either, but I am going to try to persuade him to give it another try.

Pat Slattery

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quote:
Originally posted by vpnwiz:

I just started racing this year so...

This may be why some people are having a problem with your postings. Learn the history and the present will make more sense.

Me... You'll probably never find me at a NASA race. Thats by choice. Despite my disdain for some of NASA'S policies and other issues I keep it to myself. I spend way too much time trying to improve SCCA and have no extra time for NASA. Since day 1 I've been involved in the club and maybe thats why these instances don't seem to happen as often in SCCA. I think NASA is at a crossroads here and they need to look at why SCCA has fewer of these issues--Workers. Unpaid volunteers vs. paid employees. There is a difference. NASA has done a good job, but in this area they have become big-time and that brings difficulties they need to address. I'm sure in time they will. You NASA drivers need to help them as you have been asked. In the meantime come on over and run SCCA as well. Everybody is welcome now.

Stepping off [soapbox]

db

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DB, we still like to run SCCA, it is way more organized, but NASA always had more track time. Now that is not as much of a lure as it once was. Heck you can't even get a printout of the run group qualifying or finishes. Hell Maybe I should bring a copier and charge a buck per copy, I bet a guy could pay for a lot of his racing doing that.

Pat

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Patrick Smith, have you been at an SCCA race? It is certainly not the same and believe it or not we bust our butts to make sure the drivers get track time per the GCR. I have had days where we were done at 15:45, I have had days where we were done at 18:45. I can only speak for the SEDIV races I have been to but I cannot remember a time when we had to shorten sessions, now laps are a whole nother ball game which is why in many of the supps a maximum time is written. Fecal matter does hit the oscillating device and there are times where things have had to be changed up, but 90% of the time the drivers got to play for their allotted time.

The ARRC is our biggest race, in November and despite some seriously full race groups we manage to get the 20 lap races in. Why? The drivers help by being ready to rock and roll on time, stewards help by pushing things along, corner workers help by stashing cars and starting a session if a pickup is not available, everyone realizes day light is a premium and plays accordingly. You have to play scared that you are going to run out of time and push accordingly, it's tough but can be done.

Constrained schedules ARE a problem. I will not work HSR anymore due to it. Saturday schedule at the Mitty have them ending at 19:15, the day ended at 19:30 (after an 07:30) marshal meeting. 15 minutes is not much you say... well lunch was cut to 40 minutes and early, hence had to brought out to the corners. Races were cut as incidents mounted/schedule was lost. Had they ran everything with full duration, 20:30 would not have been unheard of. Anyone who has been there has seen the huge fields, and knows full well you can't hope to keep the schedule... but they do it anyways.

Something I haven't seen mentioned, how many wreckers and tiltbeds do y'all have? I figure with 50 car fields a minimum of 2 wreckers, 2 tiltbeds... and if possible 3 of each. That way if its far quicker to stash a car somewhere you can, and still start the next session (or leave 1 rotating while 2 cover situations on track).

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All this has happened before, and will happen again

vpnwiz
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Just because I started racing recently doesn't mean I don't understand the history [Cool] I just didn't live/work for/pay for it which probably gives me a much more detached perspective. I attended the Runoffs at Mid-O as a spectator starting in 2001 and was very disappointed when they left. It was the best weekend of the year at Mid-O IMO. edit: No, I've never raced with SCCA. I am interested but I don't want to hijack this thread from the NASA problems over the weekend. But I don't think they have a spot for my car, which sucks.

Really the only reason I am with NASA is because they had the HPDE program. Without that there is no way I would be racing this year - maybe ever! SCCA had nothing for me to get started with. I'm also a big fan of personal (driver) responsibility as well, it has nothing to do with SCCA or NASA. But I've got nothing but respect for guys that race in either place.

FWIW I also emailed Dave and our PT director with some "suggestions" (to put it nicely) of what I thought the problems were this weekend and how they could improve next time. He is usually very responsive and seems to like to hear from racers, good or bad.

Patrick

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Patrick Smith
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Brian Cates
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First of all I want to thank Jim Drago before I get on the soap box. We bought Jim's 99 for my son Devin. Jim builds a great car and has been a pleasure to deal with. His customer support is s second to none! I can't say enough positive things to do him justice. Class act for sure. No wonder everyone speaks so highly of Jim.

I also met a lot of great people this weekend. The SM community was very helpful and was always there to lend a hand. I wish I could remember everyone's name. Look for another post on that one as I have a lot of folks to thank. Other then the racing I had a great time at Mid Ohio.

Ok back to my rambling.

I have raced with both organizations since 1985. SCCA for my first 4 years, NASA since 2002 and both since 2007. This past weekend was definately the worst for track time and dollars spent in over 10 years of racing. Factor in the cost for my son, 2 days off work and it gets even uglier.

Both organizations have their pros and cons. Fortunately in the Mid-Atlantic region we have a pretty good NASA operation with Chris Cobetto running the show. We also have a good southeast NASA with Jim Pantas at the helm. I ran with NASA Nor-Cal back in 2002 and they seemed to have their act together.

The Great Lakes region seems to be having some serious growing pains. Fortunately they will have California helping out for the Nationals so I would expect a big improvement come September.

The big difference with NASA is you can actually talk to the guys who make decisions and usually they will listen and sometimes even act immediately. That will never happen with the SCCA as the bus is just too big and the drivers too set in their ways to make a "U-turn" in oncoming traffic. (No I am not SCCA bashing as I run there too, I just don't like sitting around all day for one session on track)

I called Jerry K(the big guy that owns NASA) a few years back about some desired rule changes and he was willing to listen and make some of the changes. Had him on the phone for almost an hour several times. (I was just another complaining racer but he was willing to listen) Seriously think I would ever get to the Big Guy in SCCA.

Jerry is a businessman and as such wants to make a profit as any good businessman should, but he also knows that in order to do that he must keep the customers happy, within reason of course. I'm fine with that just wish I was smart enough to start NASA. (Also for those new to NASA, it's like a franchise, some regions have been around longer and are more stabilized and had time to get their act together. The Great Lakes region is not new, but it is under new management, so to speak)

Remember why NASA was started? There were some folks in CA that were fed up with all the politics, etc. of the SCCA and lack of track time so they decided to do something about it. Jerry was one of those guys.

Fast forward and today NASA has grown at an incredable pace so they must be doing something right. I think the HPDE program is a major reason for their success and I don't think they should ever split the racers and HPDE. That format works very well.

But as others have pointed out, NASA is at a crossroad and needs to figure out if they are a racing organization foremost with a very good driver development program or the other way around. In other words, they need to tweek their business plan if they want to continue their upward growth and be seen as an alternative for amature racers. If they don't put racing on top of the pedestal NASA WILL BE SEEN AS THE ORGANIZATION WHERE ASPIRING RACERS START OUT BEFORE THEY MOVE UP TO THE SCCA WHERE THE MORE SERIOUS RACERS PLAY.

So someone please tell me why it would be a bad idea to have a priority ladder system in NASA with HPDE-1 at the bottom, then TT and then racers at the top. The more time and money you spend climbing the ladder, the more guarantted track time you get, really simple concept.

I have also noticed over my past 7 years with NASA that at the end of the weekend there are very few cars left in HPDE in the last session. Most of the guys have had enough and are ready to get out of there or their car is done. The schedule can usually be tweeked to combine some of the HPDE sessions at the end of the day if required due to on track incidents.

Watching the last HPDE session run at Mid Ohio with very few cars on the track was tough. I thought to myself, now that's really stupid, they piss off 60 plus racers so 15 HPDE guys could get in their last session. Got their priorities all wrong in my book. Obviously I wasn't the only racer who felt that way. Do you think if that HPDE group got shorted ten minutes or even didn't get to go out on the track they would have given up on NASA. I think most of the HPDE guys know the kind of money amd time the racers spend and would like to think they would be treated a little better if and when they go racing. No different then if us amature racers were running at a Pro event.

Here is the funny thing. HPDE is almost always sold out in NASA Mid Atlantic, with huge waiting lists for HPDE-1. Race groups are usually full but not always, depending on the event. So as a smart business man I would be catering to the racers a little more. Plus it's not like the HPDE guys really have any other options (I know that sounds bad but hey I'm talking business 101 here)

Of course the SCCA has responded with their own program but their is one BIG difference. With NASA your crew guys can take their street cars out on the track the same weekend you are racing!
Or in my case my 15 year old son can start out in HPDE will dad spending his college education money on the track!

Do you think the HPDE guys will stop coming? Not likely as it's still one hell of a deal and a great driver learning program. But the racers are kind of like a labor union, especially the bigger groups like SM. We need to get our act together as the biggest group and go to the local NASA directors and the main office with one voice. Not a bunch of individual complaints, but good ideas that can benefit everyone.

Don't give up on NASA. And remember that not all NASA regions are the same and that some have been doing it a little longer and have learned what does and doesn't work. I'm sure Dave won't schedule 5 race groups ever again.

Now if I could just learn to stop writing novels:banghead:

Brian Cates

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this last weekend was probably the worst race weekend I have ever attended. We need to have a certain known lap race. The question is... when does the clock start? on the grid? on the pace lap? is the cool down lap part of it too? The nationals need fixed too.... 5-6 lap shoot outs for the qualifying races... come on guys(NASA) give us something back... why did we not get a discount since support races were using our track time that we thought we paid for... bad taste. The real kick in the pants is I brought a new racer that only has a SCCA license, he wanted to see what it was like. I know he was glad he just helped crew and not spent his own money....

Greg Peluso

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Brian Cates, excellent post. [thumbsup]

Pat Slattery

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I just want to know how you can call 1 green lap and 1 yellow lap a race,that's BULL [censored]

In the history of racing,have you ever heard of any other race sanction calling 1 green lap a race?

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Bob
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Mr. Cates, your post is well reasoned, fair-minded, and logical. We'll stand for none of that crap here. [Wink]

For the record, the 'R' group was not my idea, I just had the poor taste to post it.

-Denny

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the June sprints this year featured 5 laps of green flag racing, 2 full course yellow, and we didn't even get our 45 minutes of track time. They fixed that for others on Sunday.

SM = Sacrificial Mutton

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Mike Backus
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quote:
Originally posted by B(Kuch) Kucera 45:
I just want to know how you can call 1 green lap and 1 yellow lap a race,that's BULL [censored]

In the history of racing,have you ever heard of any other race sanction calling 1 green lap a race?

Kutch.
Right on. When I entered impound and was told we we were finished, I was simply astounded. In SCCA, that race would heva been black flagged and given a full restart.
Rick
Interesting that no one fron NASA has said a word here...

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quote:
Originally posted by backusm:
the June sprints this year featured 5 laps of green flag racing, 2 full course yellow, and we didn't even get our 45 minutes of track time. They fixed that for others on Sunday.

SM = Sacrificial Mutton

I could be wrong on this but the GCR says nothing about 45 minutes for a race. Now the time MAXIMUM might be 45 minutes but races are done by lap count unless maximum is hit.

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I believe the June Sprints was a 12 lap race, we raced 5 laps, had 1 additional lap following the pace car, for a total of 6 laps and then they called the race saying we completed 50% of the race. [Frown]

Pat

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quote:
Originally posted by Lance Snyder:
I could be wrong on this but the GCR says nothing about 45 minutes for a race. Now the time MAXIMUM might be 45 minutes but races are done by lap count unless maximum is hit.

3.1.1.D. Duration of Races. To be counted for National points, a race shall be scheduled for a number of laps equaling at least forty-five (45) miles. The SOM may reschedule all of any of the races to thirty (30) minutes if conditions so require.

6.7.5. Shortened Races
A. If a race is stopped at less than fifty (50) percent of itís scheduled time or distance and is not restarted, it shall be considered incomplete. Championship points shall not be awarded, and organizers shall not be required to distribute trophies or other awards.
B. A race that is stopped at fifty (50) percent or more of its scheduled time or distance, and not restarted, shall be scored as a complete race as of the end of the last completely scored lap (even if that lap is less than fifty (50) percent of the scheduled distance).

[Smile]

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David Watts
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June sprints are at RA are they not? 5 laps at RA is about equal to 10 laps anywhere else. OK, maybe 8.

In any case...

Greg

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From Nasa's GCR

20.1 Race Length
The race length may vary at each event. It is the competitorís responsibility to ascertain
the race length by information from the Officials. A race may be shortened or stopped at
the discretion of the Race Director. If a race is stopped with less than fifty (50%) percent
of the total specified time (or total specified distance, when applicable) completed by the
overall leader, and the race is not restarted, it shall be deemed an incomplete race. An
incomplete race will be not counted, and no points or prizes will be awarded. If a race is
stopped after the overall leader has completed fifty (50%) percent, or more, of the total
specified time (or total specified distance, as applicable), and the race is not restarted,
the race shall be deemed completed. A shortened, but complete, race shall be scored at
the finish line, in order of the last lap before the red flag or black flag all condition was
displayed. However, there is an exception. The race will be scored in order of actual
finish if the race was under a full course yellow flag condition, even if a red flag or black
flag all condition ends the race, so long as the full course yellow was displayed before
the other aforementioned global flags were displayed.

The way I read it the Mid Ohio race was incomplete and we should be monetarily credited for one race or our money refunded.
Howard

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quote:
Originally posted by nohairracing:


The way I read it the Mid Ohio race was incomplete and we should be monetarily credited for one race or our money refunded.
Howard

Not unless its written that refunds will be given.... It does look like quite a mess from the outside. Do the NASA races have Stewards like SCCA? guys that know the rules inside and out or is it more like a dictatorship? I've heard the latter from friends that no longer race NASA. Maybe if the people in charge knew the rules as written......

db

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quote:
Originally posted by D Watts:
quote:
Originally posted by Lance Snyder:
I could be wrong on this but the GCR says nothing about 45 minutes for a race. Now the time MAXIMUM might be 45 minutes but races are done by lap count unless maximum is hit.

3.1.1.D. Duration of Races. To be counted for National points, a race shall be scheduled for a number of laps equaling at least forty-five (45) miles. The SOM may reschedule all of any of the races to thirty (30) minutes if conditions so require.

6.7.5. Shortened Races
A. If a race is stopped at less than fifty (50) percent of itís scheduled time or distance and is not restarted, it shall be considered incomplete. Championship points shall not be awarded, and organizers shall not be required to distribute trophies or other awards.
B. A race that is stopped at fifty (50) percent or more of its scheduled time or distance, and not restarted, shall be scored as a complete race as of the end of the last completely scored lap (even if that lap is less than fifty (50) percent of the scheduled distance).

[Smile]

Good deal, nothing about 45 minutes required. Now 45 minutes of practice/qualifying time at the national is required. Then of course supps can put in a lap/time limit, i.e- 15 laps or 30 minutes.

The Sprints had 7 scored laps, just checked the results so it was an official race.

Don't you need to have run 5 NASA races to get into the national championship? If so, this race would not count towards that total.

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All this has happened before, and will happen again

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As Pogo would have said, "This is getting interestinger and interestinger" [Wink]
Rick

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Fortune Cookie Racing SM 60
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Lance... the beauty of NASA is that if they want it to count, it will. They make up their own rules as they go because it's a franchise business, not a rules-based race series.

It would probably be wise from a customer service point of view to make it count: If you took the green, you get credit. This answer makes the most sense as all that matters is that you get your ticket punched, finishing position matters not for the 'national championship'.

--------------------
Do I turn my 99 Hard S into a killerfast SM or seek a donor?

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If NASA wanted to do the right PR move they would count the race and also give a 1 day credit to those for the next race.

Pat

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keeping the faith for the 1.6

Arrow Karts

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This is my email exchange with Dave Royce

Dave,
As you have probably heard, the racers in group C this past weekend are pissed (I was in that group also) You may want to address us on the Spec Miata board.
Here is the link to our conversation http://forum.specmiata.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?/topic/34/52.html

His reply:
Howard,

Iím fully aware of the SM (Group C situation) and am working on a quality resolution. I think everyone will be satisfied with the answer.


Thanks,

Dave Royce

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Never argue with an idiot, they drag you down to their level then beat you with experience!

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quote:
Originally posted by pat slattery:
If NASA wanted to do the right PR move they would count the race and also give a 1 day credit to those for the next race.

Pat

To that extent, Would anyone who was in Sunday's "Race" also like a re-do. I'd be willing to present to Dave Royce the idea of re-running Sunday's Race on the Friday at our next mid-ohio event. Anyone else interested? I spoke to Dave today, and he wants me to come up with some ideas, so here is one. What do you think about it, or any other suggestions?

--------------------
Great Lakes SM Series Director

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quote:
Originally posted by Kent Carter:
Lance... the beauty of NASA is that if they want it to count, it will. They make up their own rules as they go because it's a franchise business, not a rules-based race series.

So why have rules at all?

--------------------
All this has happened before, and will happen again

d mathias Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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I like the idea Patrick, but not everyone can get Friday off from work.

A couple years ago NASA tried a format that I thought was pretty cool - qualifying and a qualifying race on Sat. and a qualifying race and race on Sun., essentially a 3 race weekend. As a matter of fact the Cincy region, SCCA has this very format for the upcoming IT-Spectacular. How about having a longer qualifying race Sunday AM at the Aug. NASA Mid-O.

Whatever the resolution, I would like to get credit for Sunday's race toward the Championship since I spent all day there, paid the full entry fee, and took the green flag. (what Kent said)

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quote:
Originally posted by Lance Snyder:
quote:
Originally posted by Kent Carter:
Lance... the beauty of NASA is that if they want it to count, it will. They make up their own rules as they go because it's a franchise business, not a rules-based race series.

So why have rules at all?
Lance, there is some beauty to having a CCR rules book that doesn't kill 2.243 trees like the SCCA GCR. The SCCA is so hidebound by it's stupid hierarchy that it's teetering on collapse. NASA is fresh and lean. It has advantages that come from not having the classic Chief of X/RA of X/DA of X/NA of X/National advisory board of X/Board of Directors structure like the SCCA.

It's a distinct difference really: NASA is willing to piss off one in order to make many happy, but is willing to bend the rules to keep everyone happy if possible. SCCA is willing to keep everyone pissed off in order to preserve the process and the powers that be. [soapbox]

Clearly, NASA is indeed at a crossroads. It will be interesting to see which way they turn.

--------------------
Do I turn my 99 Hard S into a killerfast SM or seek a donor?

Brian Cates
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Mr. Royce,

If you are reading this forum, please keep in mind that the SM races were also part of the Teen Mazda Challenge. There is lot at stake and having a one lap race should not be used for deciding championship points.

I hope you will seriously consider the idea of racers having track time priority over HPDE. That really is the main issue here.

Please don't tell me that HPDE particiants spend the same kind of time and money that racers do.

Last time I checked there were no championship points for HPDE.

I have been a huge NASA supporter since 2002 but now that I am spending crazy amounts of money running 2 cars I am seriously considering my options for next year. Mid Ohio over Kansas is a no-brainer but Road America is a different story. I'm sure I am not the only racer who feels that way.

As disapointed and angry as I am about this past weekend, I am more concerned about the future direction of NASA and where I want to spend my dollars.

"WHAT'S IT GONNA BE, RACERS OR HPDE, BOTH CAN'T HAVE THE SAME TRACK PRIORITY WHEN THE SCHEDULE IS OVERBOOKED OR CRAP HAPPENS ON THE TRACK?"

This notion of trying to keep everyone happy ain't working, can you tell?

Brian Cates

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quote:
Originally posted by Patrick Strehl:
quote:
Originally posted by pat slattery:
If NASA wanted to do the right PR move they would count the race and also give a 1 day credit to those for the next race.

Pat

To that extent, Would anyone who was in Sunday's "Race" also like a re-do. I'd be willing to present to Dave Royce the idea of re-running Sunday's Race on the Friday at our next mid-ohio event. Anyone else interested? I spoke to Dave today, and he wants me to come up with some ideas, so here is one. What do you think about it, or any other suggestions?
Patrick, good idea but it wont work, not everyone would be able to race on a Friday, probably not even half the racers. I like a credit for a future race that everyone should be able to take advantage of.

Pat

--------------------
keeping the faith for the 1.6

Arrow Karts

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quote:
Originally posted by Kent Carter:
quote:
Originally posted by Lance Snyder:
quote:
Originally posted by Kent Carter:
Lance... the beauty of NASA is that if they want it to count, it will. They make up their own rules as they go because it's a franchise business, not a rules-based race series.

So why have rules at all?
Lance, there is some beauty to having a CCR rules book that doesn't kill 2.243 trees like the SCCA GCR. The SCCA is so hidebound by it's stupid hierarchy that it's teetering on collapse. NASA is fresh and lean. It has advantages that come from not having the classic Chief of X/RA of X/DA of X/NA of X/National advisory board of X/Board of Directors structure like the SCCA.

It's a distinct difference really: NASA is willing to piss off one in order to make many happy, but is willing to bend the rules to keep everyone happy if possible. SCCA is willing to keep everyone pissed off in order to preserve the process and the powers that be. [soapbox]

Yes NASA is fresh and lean. But making yourself the anti-SCCA will only get you so far. The GCR is at its length because of the RACERS, not because volunteers love sitting around and writing for the hell of it. Not to mention if you want to compare take out the sections for formula cars and prod, something NASA doesn't have. SCCA may be archaic but we certainly get the job done do we not? Is everything perfect, no. But is everyone in the club pissed off? No. NASA has no problem accepting SCCA licenses. But hey, keep on hating the on SCCA if it makes you feel better. Maybe you'll get more members that way.

--------------------
All this has happened before, and will happen again

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I'd really dont' want this topic to degenerate into an SCCA/NASA pissing match.

It appears Royce is coming up with something to help remedy the situation. Let's give him some time to come up with it.

In the meantime, cheerleaders on both sides need to take it easy.

Jason

--------------------
Jason Holland
Semi-interested civilian

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quote:
Originally posted by Jason Holland:
I'd really dont' want this topic to degenerate into an SCCA/NASA pissing match.

It appears Royce is coming up with something to help remedy the situation. Let's give him some time to come up with it.

In the meantime, cheerleaders on both sides need to take it easy.

Jason

+1

--------------------
Tony Senese
SM#99
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http://www.nosenseyet.com/coppermine

B(Kuch) Kucera 45 B(Kuch) Kucera 45 has just turned 43 Verified Driver
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quote:
Originally posted by Qik Nip:
quote:
Originally posted by B(Kuch) Kucera 45:
I just want to know how you can call 1 green lap and 1 yellow lap a race,that's BULL [censored]

In the history of racing,have you ever heard of any other race sanction calling 1 green lap a race?

Kutch.
Right on. When I entered impound and was told we we were finished, I was simply astounded. In SCCA, that race would heva been black flagged and given a full restart.
Rick
Interesting that no one fron NASA has said a word here...

I was the same way Rick,I had to erease my video tape so my kids didn't hear the way I was talking!

I also would like to say sorry for anyone that might have heard me in the pits after the race.I'm not that kind of person,it takes alot to get me wound up and they found my button on Sunday.

I'm like alot of people out there,I'm on a very tight budget and have to pick the few events a year that I would be going to.All I like to do is race and have a good time with my friends at the track and get the most out of the money I spent for each event (track time).

I just hope Dave or whoever has control over this issue comes up with something to correct this problem!This will make my mind up wether or not to do another event with them!

--------------------
Bob
!KUCH!

"All my drinking buddies have a racing problem"

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Kuch I am with you. I can't afford to do all the races I would like to so the ones I do pick have to give me the most value(track time). I need to feel confident when I hook up the trailer that I am going to an event that is going to deliver. If it cost more to get that kind of "Guarantee" it is well worth it to me to protect my investment in going to the event. This could be a way that NASA can be different "NASA makes sure you get your time on track" wouldn't that be nice.

Oh by the way Bob it was great meeting you last weekend and I look forward to sharing some track time with you in the future.

Well, I think it's in NASAs hands now. They have received a lot of input from the lot of us. Let's see what they do with it.

--------------------
Ralph Provitz
#38
2008 WHRRI SM Champion
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V2 Motorsports, Race support, Data Dude

B(Kuch) Kucera 45 B(Kuch) Kucera 45 has just turned 43 Verified Driver
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It was nice to meet you Ralph,and it was fun running with you in the short time we had!

I just wish my car was as clean as your's! [Big Grin]

--------------------
Bob
!KUCH!

"All my drinking buddies have a racing problem"

vpnwiz
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quote:
Originally posted by B(Kuch) Kucera 45:
It was nice to meet you Ralph,and it was fun running with you in the short time we had!

I just wish my car was as clean as your's! [Big Grin]

+1

Thanks for the tip on the grounds too Ralph, we didn't have any tach problems at all last weekend.

Patrick

--------------------
Patrick Smith
#14 NASA Performance Touring
 -

Shawn Slattery
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[twocents] The problem is that Nasa needs to figure out if it is going to be a race program with DE or vise versa. As a racer I obviously vote for the race program with DE. I understand and support the DE program, I just think it is a little to extensive. My soulution, Cut out 1 or 2 DE classes. Or say for one weekend or day have HPDE 1 and 2, and then the race groups. Classes over 25 or so have their own run group. the next day or race weekend have the HPDE 3 & 4..... That would at least make it 6 or 7 lbs instead of 10 in a 5 lb. bag. Right now I feel that Nasa Central is a DE program that tries to squeeze some actual racing in but they cant really seem to make up their minds. [help]

Kramer
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I'm somewhat new to the road race thing, and I hope to turn my '96 into a SM next year. I was in HPDE2 at Putnam in May. The last HPDE2 session on Sunday was nearly empty. I enjoyed every minute I could spend on the track (unfortunately I lost one session out of the eight due to a leaky brake line). I spent a lot of money for that weekend-and I'm going to get my money's worth.

However, if I had spent just as much money for the weekend, but had thousands more invested in my car, I'd rather have spent even more time on the track. I'm glad NASA puts so much effort into making HPDE drivers learn before racing, and I think it will show by having safer (and more full) races in the future.

However, if these HPDE sessions aren't full, we shouldn't be running them. I know it was 4:30 on Sunday, and everybody wants to go home, but this is expensive track time, and someone should be using it.

nohairracing Verified Driver
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ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ, come on Dave Royce, what's the deal???

--------------------
Never argue with an idiot, they drag you down to their level then beat you with experience!

B(Kuch) Kucera 45 B(Kuch) Kucera 45 has just turned 43 Verified Driver
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I think there hoping we forget about it,well that's not going to happen!

--------------------
Bob
!KUCH!

"All my drinking buddies have a racing problem"

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quote:
Originally posted by B(Kuch) Kucera 45:
I think there hoping we forget about it,well that's not going to happen!

Kutch:
Amen brother. It's very hard to think otherwise. It's now been eight days since the incident and five since Howard's post of Dave's comment that he was working on an outcome with which we'd all be satisfied. As the saying goes," justice delayed is no justice at all".

Anybody else getting impatient?
Rick

--------------------
Fortune Cookie Racing SM 60
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Patrick Strehl Verified Driver
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quote:
Originally posted by B(Kuch) Kucera 45:
I think there hoping we forget about it,well that's not going to happen!

FYI,
Our issues have not been forgotten. Dave and I spoke almost every day last week. He has asked me to come up with some Ideas to fix the problem. I have been asking some of the drivers, and other series directors for input. I've gotten a lot of ideas, some of them good.

1. We need to figure out what NASA should do about Mid-Ohio's Sunday race.

What if we run a another race on Saturday or Sunday at the next Mid-Ohio weekend?

2. NASA needs to get a better handle on the schedule.

Dave already said he would not have two guest groups again and this will help. I've also heard several comments about the DE's thinning out on Sunday. This seems like the most probable target for slippage to me, but I'm interested in other constructive suggestions. This may take more then one event to fix, in my opinion, it took more then one event to create. It is NASA's responsibility.

3. WE NEED TO STAY ON THE TRACK! This is our fix. I've spoken to several sm racers that were there. We had one driver off 3 times and had 1 contact incident in one weekend. This cost us time. What should have happened there? We had a multi car crash in turn one of the race on Saturday. This cost us more time. Fact: We have more incidents then any other race group this year. Something is going to be done here, so please give me some input!!!

--------------------
Great Lakes SM Series Director

 
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