Region: neohio
Car #: #50
Year : 91 Posts: 265
Status: Offline
posted
"Dave and I spoke almost every day last week. He has asked me to come up with some Ideas to fix the problem."
He asked YOU? WTF, he runs the damn thing. Simple, give my money back or a credit for a weekend, period! I also think the longer he drags his feet the more we should get back. You don't havr to be a rocket scientist tofigure out something like this. Howard
-------------------- Never argue with an idiot, they drag you down to their level then beat you with experience!
Region: SouthEast
Car #: 28
Year : 95 Posts: 3756
Status: Offline
posted
Howard,
I'll grant that you (and anyone else involved with this race) has the right to be upset with how it turned out. I'd be upset.
But I think I would probably cool it with nasty posts. Especially since you are directing your vitriol at a Volunteer (Patrick) who is trying to help you.
No one is asking you to forget anything (I think you all have legitimate concerns) but to say this is a simple problem is not accurate. It may take some time to figure it out. Everyone will appreciate the patience.
Things are being discussed and worked out. I'm sure something will come out soon. In the meantime, be nice. It's always a good policy.
Thanks
Jason
-------------------- Jason Holland Semi-interested civilian
It's not the refund for lack of track time that really concerns me in the longterm. The entry fee is only a minor part of the typical expenses of a race weekend.
There are only so many weekends that one can put on their racing schedule. I just don't want to waste time and money for 2 days of towing plus 2 days at the track to esentially get a few laps of racing.
I think the racers need some sort of guarantee or at least a goal, that the racers will get a minimum amount of laps or time.
Considering there are usually only 3 race groups at a NASA event, stealing time if necessary from HPDE or pushing the day longer to ensure 3 actual races should not be that much to ask for.
Cutting practice time OK, Shortening qualifying OK, shortening a race to 18 minutes including in and out time is not good.
I hope this all gets figured out. I would love to brag about all the track time we get in NASA like I have done for the past 5 years.
Region: NeOh
Car #: 45
Year : 1991 Posts: 858
Status: Offline
posted
quote:Originally posted by Patrick Strehl:
quote:Originally posted by B(Kuch) Kucera 45: I think there hoping we forget about it,well that's not going to happen!
FYI, Our issues have not been forgotten. Dave and I spoke almost every day last week. He has asked me to come up with some Ideas to fix the problem. I have been asking some of the drivers, and other series directors for input. I've gotten a lot of ideas, some of them good.
1. We need to figure out what NASA should do about Mid-Ohio's Sunday race.
What if we run a another race on Saturday or Sunday at the next Mid-Ohio weekend?
2. NASA needs to get a better handle on the schedule.
Dave already said he would not have two guest groups again and this will help. I've also heard several comments about the DE's thinning out on Sunday. This seems like the most probable target for slippage to me, but I'm interested in other constructive suggestions. This may take more then one event to fix, in my opinion, it took more then one event to create. It is NASA's responsibility.
3. WE NEED TO STAY ON THE TRACK! This is our fix. I've spoken to several sm racers that were there. We had one driver off 3 times and had 1 contact incident in one weekend. This cost us time. What should have happened there? We had a multi car crash in turn one of the race on Saturday. This cost us more time. Fact: We have more incidents then any other race group this year. Something is going to be done here, so please give me some input!!!
Patrick,I understand were your coming from but you have to understand were we are coming from.We spent $400.00 just to race plus gas plus travel time plus two full day's at the track to get roughly 40min. total track time.
I just think the longer it takes to get this fixed it will hurt the next NASA event.I think some drivers might not attend the next race to see what happens about this race.
I'm not trying to stop anybody from showing up at the next race,I'm just saying I won't be there until the issue is fixed.Sorry but like I said before,I don't have alot of cash and I have to be sure I will get the best return on my money.
I liked all the workers that were at the track and had no other problems except the track time.If this is handled correctly I will be happy to race at another NASA event.
Region: Houston
Car #: 91
Year : 1991 Posts: 2171
Status: Offline
posted
I don't really think this damages the SM community as a whole. NASA is a for-profit franchise business. Like most, it seems some franchises are run better than others.
If you find one incompetent McDonald's manager that ruins your dining experience, it doesn't ruin hamburgers. Just find another burger joint!
-------------------- Do I turn my 99 Hard S into a killerfast SM or seek a donor?
Region: NeOh
Car #: 45
Year : 1991 Posts: 858
Status: Offline
posted
quote:Originally posted by Kent Carter: I don't really think this damages the SM community as a whole. NASA is a for-profit franchise business. Like most, it seems some franchises are run better than others.
If you find one incompetent McDonald's manager that ruins your dining experience, it doesn't ruin hamburgers. Just find another burger joint!
I never had a $400.00 hamburger,were can I try one?
Just think,if every driver ate one of those before the race I don't think one person would make it to the starting grid.I think the only race that would be going on is the race to the hopper!
Region: SouthEast
Car #: 28
Year : 95 Posts: 3756
Status: Offline
posted
quote:Originally posted by nohairracing: Jason Patrick, I re-read my post. I didn't mean to sound nasty to Patrick. That was not my intention, sorry Howard
No sweat Howard. I just don't want any to get abused on this board (except Sam Barnett)...
Thanks!
Jason
-------------------- Jason Holland Semi-interested civilian
Qik Nip
Loose Member '09 & '10 Great Lakes Regional Points Champion
Region: Cincinnati Great Lakes
Car #: 60
Year : 1990 Posts: 1487
Status: Offline
posted
Since I started this thread, I thought I ought to update everyone with a long conversation Patrick and I had yesterday afternoon.
First, we agreed there are two aspects at play here. The first is the corrective action required to offset the mess, (a credit, bonus races, ect). The second is the corrective action to prevent a recurrence ... e.g. no more five race group weekends.
Based on several mentions made here - as well as Patrick's comments, it appears that Dave has addressed the preventive action by forswearing any future five race group days. In addition, Patrick has developed an interesting idea for Dave to consider should he ever again find himself with a similar time crunch.
As for the corrective side, I opined to Patrick that a credit of some size seems to me the only appropriate remedial action. As for a fee bonus race during some future weekend, there are two reasons I don't favor that approach.
First the out of area folks like Brian may never realize that benefit and secondly, (personally) I see no reason to put my car on the track to race a no points race and risk breaking it and eliminating the scheduled race to follow the next day. Likewise, hanging around after the last race on Sunday to run a freebie race isn't very appealing either, since most of want to get out of the gate fast after finishing a weekend.
We'll have to see what Dave comes up with after Patrick gathers and passes along as much input as he can. Rick
-------------------- Fortune Cookie Racing SM 60 Directions for use: Race, Rumple, Repair ... Repeat!
Having been able to screw things up this much in one weekend imagine what I can do with a whole season. I got us an extra 20 minutes on the track next time at mid ohio. 2 45 minute races. I hope I did good.
-------------------- Great Lakes SM Series Director
Region: Indy Region
Car #: 28
Year : 1990/2000 Posts: 32
Status: Offline
posted
Good work, that makes up for the lost 20min Qual at Putnam. Now about Mid-O.....
Thanks for doing all you can. I know your day job hasn't been much fun lately either.
Qik Nip
Loose Member '09 & '10 Great Lakes Regional Points Champion
Region: Cincinnati Great Lakes
Car #: 60
Year : 1990 Posts: 1487
Status: Offline
posted
Patrick: Thanks for the effort. While it irks me that I will get zilch from the extra track time (I won't be there in August - I'm running the IT Spectacular the weekend before), I guess it's better than a sharp stick in the eye. Enjoy the lengthened race guys.
One observation. The lengthened races are a bonus to the racers, but cost NASA nada. Rick
-------------------- Fortune Cookie Racing SM 60 Directions for use: Race, Rumple, Repair ... Repeat!
Region: OVR
Car #: 88
Year : 1991 Posts: 2401
Status: Offline
posted
Patrick, I'm not exactly sure what you did to screw up anything. Like the old saying, "sh!t flows downhill", I think you were downstream with the rest of us.
Longer races are always good in my book. Thanks for your efforts.
-Denny
P.S. here's a link to why we had a 2 lap race (not my in-car). Draw your own conclusions.
Wow, please tell me the green car has been smacked significantly. That is just retarded, I take it the driver in the black car was ok physically. Looks like the car is toast though.
-------------------- All this has happened before, and will happen again
Qik Nip
Loose Member '09 & '10 Great Lakes Regional Points Champion
Region: Cincinnati Great Lakes
Car #: 60
Year : 1990 Posts: 1487
Status: Offline
posted
quote:Originally posted by tony senese: The guy in the green car should be banned from any future event, that has to be one of the dumbest moves I have ever seen!
Agreed. Maybe the worst track move i've ever seen. Denny - has NASA seen that clip? Rick
-------------------- Fortune Cookie Racing SM 60 Directions for use: Race, Rumple, Repair ... Repeat!
quote:Originally posted by d mathias: Don't know any more than you all. Found the link on NASA's forum. I hope some kind of action will be taken.
I do know a bit more about this, although I haven't seen the video. The drivers were both SANCTIONED!!! Not a whole lot more I can say, but I'd be done racing this year if I'd been sanctioned like they were.
-------------------- Great Lakes SM Series Director
quote:Originally posted by Kent Carter: A really dumb move by the green car, but totally legal under CCR 25.4.3 and 25.4.4
The black car was at fault under NASA rules. Has the green car appealed??
It seems you are looking at this as a blocking rules incident instead of a passing rules incident.
25.4.2 Figure 3 says the lead car needed to leave 3/4 of a car width.
25.4.3 also says "The driver attempting to make a pass shall have the right to the line when their front wheel is next to the driver of the other vehicle."
-------------------- Visit the Midland City Arts Festival!
Region: WDC
Car #: 15
Year : 1995 Posts: 314
Status: Offline
posted
The black car didn't have a chance. He would have never gotten up to the driver of the vehicle as quickly as the green car made that move. The green car made a right turn, not a move to block. If those types of moves are allowed then you better qualify 1st because you'll never have an opportunity to pass anyone.
-------------------- Tim Jacobs Montgomery Irrigation
FYI, This is what one of the drivers in the races at Mid-Ohio suggested:
My thoughts…people should be in control of their car regardless of race class or speed so SM drivers do not get to make excuses.
Bump drafting is acceptable and does not require a contact form unless the front car has an “X” on the center of the back bumper.
We require a lot of safety gear and we should also require cameras. If some is involved in an “incident” and they don’t have video, they are assumed to be at fault and must provide video to be found “Not Guilty.” That will make your job (and all NASA officials) much easier and less of a he said she said game!
Penalties 1)@ Fault Contact in Practice or Qualifying – done for the day (or lesser penalty to start race at the back -- discretion of race or series director)
2)Cause of a double yellow during a race weekend (practice/qualifying/race) – cannot participate in next practice session
3)Cause of two double yellows during same race weekend (practice/qualifying/race) – cannot participate in next race day (practice, qualifying, or race)
4)Public Humiliation - We need to publish a list of everyone that is talked to, penalized, or sanctioned, with an explanation of the “bad” behavior and penalty, in your after-race wrap up. Do this for 2 reasons: 1) If everyone knows you screwed up, it will make you less likely to screw up again; 2) It will teach others the behavior that is not acceptable.
The “rules” (whatever they may be) must be sent to all participants in a pre-race email so everyone knows the rules going into the weekend (regulars and newbies). It is all about over communication so there are no excuses. You should also send the above mentioned after-race e-mail to all SM drivers summarizing the weekend (weather, winners, losers, penalties, off track fun).
Any Thoughts?
-------------------- Great Lakes SM Series Director
Region: Houston
Car #: 91
Year : 1991 Posts: 2171
Status: Offline
posted
quote:Originally posted by Robin Peter:
quote:Originally posted by Kent Carter: A really dumb move by the green car, but totally legal under CCR 25.4.3 and 25.4.4
The black car was at fault under NASA rules. Has the green car appealed??
It seems you are looking at this as a blocking rules incident instead of a passing rules incident.
25.4.2 Figure 3 says the lead car needed to leave 3/4 of a car width.
25.4.3 also says "The driver attempting to make a pass shall have the right to the line when their front wheel is next to the driver of the other vehicle."
This is one of the areas where NASA's rule package is problematic. I'm reading each of the rules and checking them off as I go...
25.4.1 "...Responsibility lies with the overtaking car." That's the black car. 25.4.2 "...Punting: Side of nose to side of tail contact that causes the leading car to be knocked off the racing line." That's what the black car did. If you watch the video carefully, you'll see there is track to the right of the black car when contact is made, so at least 3/4 car width is available.
25.4.3 "The driver attempting to make a pass shall have the right to the line when their front wheel is next to the driver of the other vehicle." The black car never got to the door. Green car had the right to any line. 35.4.4 "...Blocking is defined as two consecutive moves..." The Green car executed a legal block under this rule, making only one hellacious move.
While I think the move and the rule is asinine, it's perfectly legal under the CCR. I'm curious as to what grounds NASA had to penalize the moron in the green car. Oh... 25.3! The "whatever we say goes" rule. I forgot that one. But in this case, it's a very good place to use it!
Please be aware that my criticism comes from having been on the NASA "Incident Review Board" at one time. I truly believe that the CCR encourages this kind of driving.
-------------------- Do I turn my 99 Hard S into a killerfast SM or seek a donor?
So how does the extra race length help those of us that made an 8 hour tow?
Kind of reminds me of the time a few years ago when we got snowed out at Mid Ohio in April and our refund ended up being another race at Mid Ohio the same year. Didn't help me much then, not sure how this will help the out or region racers.
How about a partial refund for the National event in September?
On track incidents happen regularly, this is not just a NASA or SM thing, it's racing. Did anybody notice that there were 3 HPDE groups scheduled after the Stinger race? Should have been able to combine those groups somehow so we could have had a race on Sunday.
I understand the need to keep on the schedule, but sometimes it makes sense to think out of the box (see the big picture) and not rely soley on the pre-determined time schedule.
Of course that would mean that the RACE groups would take priority over HPDE and TT and that appears to be a subject that nobody wants to discuss.
We have 10 race groups in the mid-atlantic SCCA races and there are plenty of incidents, BUT we usually get some kind of race. 1 lap green and 2 yellow is not a race in my book.
If the Great lakes NASA region does not invite other guest SCCA groups in the future, that would typically limit it to only 3 race groups, which combined with HPDE and TT seems reasonable. Some kind of minimum REAL race time and or number of laps should not be too much to ask for future races.
I was told years ago that there are 3 types of racers; fast guys, rich guys and idiots. This applies to just about every sanctioning body and every form of racing, thus there will always be on track incidents and should be planned for accordingly.
Region: Cincinnati
Car #: 79
Year : 1992 Posts: 11
Status: Offline
posted
Agreed Brian, 110%. There may have been a Few too many incidents that weekend, but that is the way it goes in racing. Some weekends you'll have zero incidents, other events its a Derby. We DO need to get some of the racers in our class into shape tho (not pointing any fingers) but the incidents will be there regardless. (I'm just gonna blame it all on Bennett, that seems fair right?)
And someone does need to discuss the limiting of the HPDE groups per day. It is ridiculous in my eyes. Right now it's like a 70/30 split in DE to Racing. And I would like to see it more of a 60/40 in Racing to DE. I really think this would make a difference. If you are going to have racing then the race groups should have some slight priority. I'm not sayin screw the DE guys, just not screw the racers....
Region: OVR
Car #: 88
Year : 1991 Posts: 2401
Status: Offline
posted
Why was the green PTE Neon blocking, legal or otherwise, a Spec Focus?
2 different classes guys.
Heads down driving on the part of both drivers.
And another thing - I bet NASA makes a ton of money with the HPDE program. I don't expect to see them change the format anytime soon.
Qik Nip
Loose Member '09 & '10 Great Lakes Regional Points Champion
Region: Cincinnati Great Lakes
Car #: 60
Year : 1990 Posts: 1487
Status: Offline
posted
quote:Originally posted by d mathias: And another thing - I bet NASA makes a ton of money with the HPDE program. I don't expect to see them change the format anytime soon.
Denny: Want another prediction...PDX in SCCA may create the same situation there over time. Adam Smith's invisible hand at play... Rick
-------------------- Fortune Cookie Racing SM 60 Directions for use: Race, Rumple, Repair ... Repeat!
Region: Cincinnati
Car #: 79
Year : 1992 Posts: 11
Status: Offline
posted
Then expect them to lose a ton of money from the racers who drop out due to lack of compromise on NASA's part. You can't have your cake and eat it too. Unless it's very very moist....
Region: Steel Cities
Car #: 20
Year : 1990 Posts: 60
Status: Offline
posted
quote:Originally posted by Patrick Strehl: FYI, This is what one of the drivers in the races at Mid-Ohio suggested:
My thoughts…people should be in control of their car regardless of race class or speed so SM drivers do not get to make excuses.
Bump drafting is acceptable and does not require a contact form unless the front car has an “X” on the center of the back bumper.
We require a lot of safety gear and we should also require cameras. If some is involved in an “incident” and they don’t have video, they are assumed to be at fault and must provide video to be found “Not Guilty.” That will make your job (and all NASA officials) much easier and less of a he said she said game!
Penalties 1)@ Fault Contact in Practice or Qualifying – done for the day (or lesser penalty to start race at the back -- discretion of race or series director)
2)Cause of a double yellow during a race weekend (practice/qualifying/race) – cannot participate in next practice session
3)Cause of two double yellows during same race weekend (practice/qualifying/race) – cannot participate in next race day (practice, qualifying, or race)
4)Public Humiliation - We need to publish a list of everyone that is talked to, penalized, or sanctioned, with an explanation of the “bad” behavior and penalty, in your after-race wrap up. Do this for 2 reasons: 1) If everyone knows you screwed up, it will make you less likely to screw up again; 2) It will teach others the behavior that is not acceptable.
The “rules” (whatever they may be) must be sent to all participants in a pre-race email so everyone knows the rules going into the weekend (regulars and newbies). It is all about over communication so there are no excuses. You should also send the above mentioned after-race e-mail to all SM drivers summarizing the weekend (weather, winners, losers, penalties, off track fun).
Any Thoughts?
Couldn't we just wear our helmets in the drivers meeting?
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