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Author Topic: NASA Announcement
Waco Racer Verified Driver
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http://www.nasaproracing.com/news/2009/extension-for-using-toyo-ra-1.html

The National Auto Sport Association (NASA) announced today that rules in all spec tire classes will be changed effective immediately to allow the use of the both the Toyo R888 or the Toyo Proxes RA-1 until the end of the 2009 season. This change is being made in partnership with Toyo to better allow racers to use up remaining RA-1's they had on hand and ease the transition to the new R888 without racers having to replace tires before the end of their useful life. Rule updates will be completed shortly and posted to the main http://www.nasaproracing.com site.

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Bravo, great news!

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Gale Corley
99 SM GRE Super Deluxe
93 SM GRE Jr. Deluxe

SteveJ Verified Driver
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You do know what day it is don't you?

Mark Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Awesome. This is a no brainer. Hopefully we won't fall off the R888 cliff now in 2010. Who's going to volunteer to do R888 R&D? [Smile] .

Thank you NASA.

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Mark
http://www.ironcanyonmotorsports.com

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quote:
Originally posted by SteveJ:
You do know what day it is don't you?

This announcement is no joke.

fleming Made Donation to Website
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maybe NASA should of waited a day or made the
announcement yesterday.
In this case being a day late or dollar short
(well many dollars since the R888 tire is
expensive) would have been better than it
coming on April fools day.

--------------------
"where one ends, one shall begin".

Mark Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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http://www.nasaproracing.com/news/2009/extension-for-using-toyo-ra-1.html

--------------------
Mark
http://www.ironcanyonmotorsports.com

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From John Lindsey -

Guys-

Not a joke and this is the real deal. We are having a con call with all the RD's this morning at 1000 CA time, so hang tight for 30 minutes and then you can trumpet to the world that it's real. We have been working very closely with Toyo and this was a joint decision to try and get the RA-1's used up and also ease the transition to the 888 once they're gone.

Thanks and sorry we couldn't release this a little more cohesively!

-JWL

Jonathan Christian Verified Driver
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wonder which one is faster in utah?

Jason Holland Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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It's legit.

--------------------
Jason Holland
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fastbrewer
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quote:
Originally posted by Jonathan Christian:
wonder which one is faster in utah?

We have plenty of data on an Ra-1.
First race weekend at MMP is this one and there are a few of us that will be testing the r-888. Granted it's predicted pretty crappy weather Saturday and no warmer than 48º or so Sunday so I won't put to much stock into this weekends data.

-Jon

d mathias Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Wonder if NASA's tail will wag SCCA's dog (again)?

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Denny, Denny,

Even I refrained from making a statement like that.

Jerry

--------------------
Just driving SM until the F-1 car is ready.

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quote:
Originally posted by d mathias:
Wonder if NASA's tail will wag SCCA's dog (again)?

No, hopefully SCCA can provide all of the testing and R&D of the R888 for the rest of us. [duck]

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31st in the nation. If I could keep the car on the track and put on the oil cap I could be in the top 20.

d mathias Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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It's a smart move by NASA who most likely saw their bottom line being reduced due to lower participation as a result of increase tire costs. -Denny

Qik Nip Verified Driver Made Donation to Website Series Champ
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So lemme see. Maybe that two cycle set of 888's will make great '09 winter tires for my wife's STS AX / Beater Miata.
Rick

--------------------
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Directions for use: Race, Rumple, Repair ... Repeat!

Glenn Long Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Great - now we get to buy even more tires... which rules do we comply to? The ones that we don't like, the ones that are inconvienient or the ones that were announced 3 months before they take effect... sigh.
Glenn Long

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I heard that Toyo is having production problems with the R-888.

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Paul McLester

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quote:
Originally posted by Gatoratty:
I heard that Toyo is having production problems with the R-888.

This morning I called one of the tire vendors that
sponsors NASA in the MidAtlantic region. I figured I would get the RA1, to learn on racing
compounds rather that baptism by fire with the
R888s. I was told the 205/50/r15 RA1s, sold out and not avaliable nationwide. Futher went on to explain that they had a call into TOYO to see if they would start production on more RA1.
[banghead]

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"where one ends, one shall begin".

tahoe z Verified Driver
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if this is true,that is utter bull sh%%,i have tested and bought 888s as per scca , sfr rules and national rules,and got good results with them.i know alot are whinning, but i expect all to live with what was stated at 1/1/09.im a biz owner and i would be sued and lose if i did this.just let all spec miata have open tires!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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kim willcox

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quote:
Originally posted by fleming:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Gatoratty:
[qb] I heard that Toyo is having production problems with the R-888. .
[banghead]

They are not as good as they said they would be...another word for it is ....junk....the old R1 out classed the R888's and everyone is learning that...so much for a closed deal.....Goodyear and Hoosier are breathing down their neck for a shot at a spec tire...should be an interesting year

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BE SAFE GO FAST HAVE FUN
Love "the commander" Mike Cefalo

cert24 Verified Driver
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OK. I need 24 tires before the next race (we run 4 cars). So I can use RA-1's, which last a while if I can find them, but they are nationally unavailable. I can order R888's, but they cost more and are useless after heat cycle 6-8. Whose stock of bad tires are they trying to clear out again? It's so nice to be provided a choice.

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OPEN TIRE!!!!!

--------------------
volante

Jason Holland Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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In response to Casey's request on background for this decision (another thread I think) here is some info from Jerry at NASA National...

***

I do know that everyone that submitted object hard data indicated that the R888 heat cycle out faster. This, coupled with the increase in per-tire cost will hit some budgets pretty hard. Furthermore, the performance has proven to be a coin flip, right down the middle. Some may argue one way or another, but any difference is completely negligible, which confirms the hard data from back to back testing, which we did ourselves last year.

Therefore, giving people a choice of which tire they want to run should be a good thing. Those that like the R888s (and there are some) can run them. Those that like the RA-1s and/or want to save money can use them.

There is no hidden motive, no hidden agenda, no backdoor deal with Toyo. We are simply responding to a need that we see, especially during harder economic times for some.

Since there is no proof that the RA-1 tire is any faster than the R888, then it doesn’t make sense to worry about those in CMC (or sm) that want to run them. Heck, you might see bigger fields with this lower cost option.

We are, as always, trying to do the best in a no-win situation. Our decisions are not always perfect, but I can assure you they are always forthright and sincerely take into account what we feel will be the best for each series.



More…

We have been collecting data from events early in the season and evaluating some data from last season. We came to the conclusion that the R888s were, when dialed in, about the same in performance as the RA-1s. Yet they have a higher cost and heat cycle out sooner.

We approached Toyo with the data. There wasn’t much to say, except to ask about the viability of going back to RA-1s. This is not something that is good for Toyo, but they want our drivers to be happy. Since the RA-1 has been out of production since last Aug, most (if not all) of the molds are gone. However, there seems to be some decent amount of inventory left on the shelves.

Since we made a commitment to Toyo to use the R888; and because of limited supply of RA-1s in some sizes, we couldn’t just discontinue the R888. Plus Toyo really wants our drivers to give it a run for the money. Therefore, we felt that the very best thing to do is to allow both tires for now as we extend the transition period until the end of the year.

There is no way to tell what the future will hold at this point. We have agreed to meet with Toyo in a few months and see how things are going. We (Toyo and NASA) can then make a determination for the future (beyond 2009).

***

--------------------
Jason Holland
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Jason Holland Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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My own .02...

NASA is in a bad place. Damned if you do and damned if you don't.

I totally understand the frustration of the people that say "look, we went according to the rules and spent time and money on the 8's, why are we now allowing the RA-1's back?"

It IS frustrating but I think the decision best reflects the needs of the majority of the people out there that still had tires etc or were adversely affected by the higher cost/wear of the r888's.

Extending the period to use RA-1's is not ideal (in fact, I'm not sure I totally agree with it) and it would have been better if it had happened three months ago but what choice at this point?

My sincere hope is that people will use the tire they like (because they seem to be very close in performance) and this will give Toyo some time to make any changes etc they think will make the tire better.

Jason

P.S. @Volante: NO!

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Jason Holland
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Jason,

You have explained this well. I appreciate your comments very much. The issue, as you so correctly point out, is not really 'how fast do these tires allow me to go' because we are all on the same tires in the preferred scenario.

What matters is money. In an entry-level amateur series like SM, it really is the most important thing. Whether a spec tire is the right choice is not the argument for this year (and perhaps next year either), what we need to do is decide how Toyo can solve the problem.

I think the answer is in the Mazda Motorsports model: discounts for bona fide racers without giving up the profits of the retail channel.

Toyo needs to sell shaved R888's to those of us with bona fide race results for around $75 a tire. We will bear a bit more costs in mounting and balancing and the inconvenience of dealing with the extra tire swaps.

It's a fair compromise and will keep us racing. At the current price point, I will not be racing often in 2009. Let's face it, there is a relatively fixed amount of money racers can or will spend on racing in a season. It either goes to Toyo or to NASA/SCCA in entry fees.

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Do I turn my 99 Hard S into a killerfast SM or seek a donor?

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Full Metal Jacket - It's a giant shat sandwich and we're all gonna have to take a bite.

If Toyo wants the R888 run dropping the price 40 bucks/tire would certainly help. Not sure they will do that but Toyo is losin its arse with having to go back to the drawing board anyways, the loss of retail cash won't hurt that much more.

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All this has happened before, and will happen again

cam Verified Driver
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quote:
Originally posted by Kent Carter:
I think the answer is in the Mazda Motorsports model: discounts for bona fide racers without giving up the profits of the retail channel.

Toyo needs to sell shaved R888's to those of us with bona fide race results for around $75 a tire. We will bear a bit more costs in mounting and balancing and the inconvenience of dealing with the extra tire swaps.

Kent, really like where you’re going with this, now, how to implement?

--------------------
"The problem with Socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money."
~Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher
"A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have."
~Thomas Jefferson

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quote:
Originally posted by cam:
quote:
Originally posted by Kent Carter:
I think the answer is in the Mazda Motorsports model: discounts for bona fide racers without giving up the profits of the retail channel.

Toyo needs to sell shaved R888's to those of us with bona fide race results for around $75 a tire. We will bear a bit more costs in mounting and balancing and the inconvenience of dealing with the extra tire swaps.

Kent, really like where you’re going with this, now, how to implement?
Proof of purchase, unique tire ID (whatever they want to use)... mail in results, receive a check.

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All this has happened before, and will happen again

B Wilson Verified Driver Series Champ
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Jason, I don't have a dog in the NASA hunt but I have to ask, What hard data?

I've heard of one race (SCCA) where there's been a problem, and I've heard a bunch of races where there haven't been problems.

IMO, NASA took the knee jerk reaction. I'm glad that SCCA is not following suite, at leat until it has more objective data.

I've spent a bunch of $$ on buying tires for this season, and I would be very pissed if SCCA didn't gather enough data before making a decision like this.

-bw

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Bruce Wilson
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Mike Bell Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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The problem continues to be the definition of "performance". Some only use lap times to make this definition, others (like me) on a budget also factor in longevity in order to make a performance determination. So, in Jason's posts above, the statements that the 888 and RA1 are very close in performance is an far cry from my experience thus far.

--------------------
Mike Bell
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Jerry @ NASA National very first line:

quote:
I do know that everyone that submitted object hard data indicated that the R888 heat cycle out faster.
There are also several other references with issues concerning heat cycles. Let's make it simple:

Performance - Lap times as compared to RA/1, including falling off, graining, etc.
Longevity - Raw number of heat cycles you can expect to receive depending on conditions and setup.

While the R888 and RA/1 seem to be on par based on performance... longevity seems to leave much to be desired.

--------------------
All this has happened before, and will happen again

B Wilson Verified Driver Series Champ
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Again, there is conflicting data and there is certainly no concensus on what a few poeple are touting as facts. To make the situation worse, a lot of open tire and Hoosier folks are throwing a bunch of FUD into the mix.

Anyone remember the big compound scare a year or two ago? I tried to dig up those threads but couldn't find anything. What seemed to be a HUGE problem turned out to be just folks going through tires faster because they were going faster or shaving more.

-bw

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Bruce Wilson
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Andy Bettencourt Verified Driver
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When was the first official announcement that NASA would be using the 888 for their spec tire?

--------------------
Andy Bettencourt
Flatout Motorsports
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quote:
Originally posted by Andy Bettencourt:
When was the first official announcement that NASA would be using the 888 for their spec tire?

I don't know if this was a rhetorical question or not, but I'll bite; sometime around the SCCA tire test last year.

--------------------
James York


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Nope, it was Feb of 08'.

http://forum.specmiata.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?/topic/15/105.html

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----------------
Z Brothers Racing / East Street Auto

Casey Z - 1.6 Kettle
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volante Verified Driver
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Guys,this is barely a spec class,3 different cars,motors from 200,000 milers to $7000 barely legal pro-builts,exhaust,radiators and every other mickey mouse invention we see every weekend in the tech shed.
Spec is a stretch to say the least.Why not choose whatever tire you feel comfortable with.Whether longevity,price or feel comes in to play is up to you,the racer.Some people will always outspend the next guy,you can't stop that,so having a spec tire to contain cost arguement is crap and if you've been racing for any length of time you would get that.

Why the f**k would you want to have to dink around with shaving,cycling,sweet spots,its endless with this tire brand we are made to use.If we have to use a spec tire make it whatever,Hoosier,BFG,Goodyear,Avon or Kumho,as long as its a true molded dot race tire.You could still negotiate the price as we did with Toyo(although $163 shaved shipped to the door is a joke for this tire)

Bottomline a open tire rule breeds competition from the other tire companies which at the end of the day would keep cost down.But everyone will start using the faster more exspensive tire and I don't want to spend that much for tires,cost will spiral out of control.....well guess what????????

--------------------
volante

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[rockband] Way to go Dave.

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quote:
Originally posted by Lance Snyder:
Let's make it simple:

Performance - Lap times as compared to RA/1, including falling off, graining, etc.

Longevity - Raw number of heat cycles you can expect to receive depending on conditions and setup.

While the R888 and RA/1 seem to be on par based on performance... longevity seems to leave much to be desired.


Yep. For me and most in SoCal NASA it's really a choice of going fast (performance) or going racing at all (longevity).

The increased price of the trip-8's was tough enough on the budget, now with them not lasting as long as the RA's it will keep me out of two regional events and possibly Nationals too.

Anyone know where I can find a bunch of RA's?

--------------------
Thanks,
John Mueller
NASA SM National Director
http://www.Weekend-Racer.com
#13 "Tiger Miata" - 2009 SoCal SSM Champion

cert24 Verified Driver
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What I had hoped to hear from the controversy was a committment by Toyo to fix the problem that exists with the R888. Toyo has done nothing as far as I can tell to address the problem or try to cure it.
Giving us longer transition time is not a helpful solution when there is great difficulty in getting RA-1's. We need the tirecompound or construction fixed.
I understand the reluctance of Toyo to speak up (after all, if they revise the compound or construction, who is going to buy all these now admittedly defective tires?). We should be advised, however, how the problem is going to be addressed by Toyo, or whether they intend to address it in a positive manner.
Is Toyo listening?

B Wilson Verified Driver Series Champ
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quote:
Originally posted by volante:
Guys,this is barely a spec class,3 different cars,motors from 200,000 milers to $7000 barely legal pro-builts,exhaust,radiators and every other mickey mouse invention we see every weekend in the tech shed.
Spec is a stretch to say the least.Why not choose whatever tire you feel comfortable with.Whether longevity,price or feel comes in to play is up to you,the racer.Some people will always outspend the next guy,you can't stop that,so having a spec tire to contain cost arguement is crap and if you've been racing for any length of time you would get that.

Why the f**k would you want to have to dink around with shaving,cycling,sweet spots,its endless with this tire brand we are made to use.If we have to use a spec tire make it whatever,Hoosier,BFG,Goodyear,Avon or Kumho,as long as its a true molded dot race tire.You could still negotiate the price as we did with Toyo(although $163 shaved shipped to the door is a joke for this tire)

Bottomline a open tire rule breeds competition from the other tire companies which at the end of the day would keep cost down.But everyone will start using the faster more exspensive tire and I don't want to spend that much for tires,cost will spiral out of control.....well guess what????????

They don't call it spec Formula one or Spec Nascar or Spec World Challenge, so what's your point Dave?

Nothing has spiraled yet, and the sky is still up there. Sorry you guys never figured out the RA-1, I guess you'll do the same and blame it all on the tire this year too. The NorPac div champ bought 3 sets of tires last year. Lots of folks chasing him bought a lot more only because they just couldn't get the tires dialed in.

And whats all the complaining about $5 per tire. If that's going to break your bank, then just run full tread and make them last, cuz your sure not going to win with that tight of a budget.

-bw

--------------------
Bruce Wilson
2010 Oregon Region Champ
2010 Monte Shelton Driver of the Year
2010 25 Hours of Thunderhill E3 and Under 2 liter Overall Champion
Oregon Region SM Class Advisor

John Mueller Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
Okay, not the slowest anymore...

Region: SoCal
Car #: 13
Year : 1992
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quote:
Originally posted by cert24:


...I understand the reluctance of Toyo to speak up (after all, if they revise the compound or construction, who is going to buy all these now admittedly defective tires?).


This is exactly why we will never hear anything of how they fixed it (assuming they actually do). [boggled]

The good news is there are almost as few 888s on the shelves as RA1s... So if a new compound/construction is now being manufactured it wont take long to be at critical mass. Just be sure dates on what you buy are close to each other (matching set).

--------------------
Thanks,
John Mueller
NASA SM National Director
http://www.Weekend-Racer.com
#13 "Tiger Miata" - 2009 SoCal SSM Champion

Blake Clements Verified Driver Series Champ
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quote:
Originally posted by B Wilson:
quote:
Originally posted by volante:
Guys,this is barely a spec class,3 different cars,motors from 200,000 milers to $7000 barely legal pro-builts,exhaust,radiators and every other mickey mouse invention we see every weekend in the tech shed.
Spec is a stretch to say the least.Why not choose whatever tire you feel comfortable with.Whether longevity,price or feel comes in to play is up to you,the racer.Some people will always outspend the next guy,you can't stop that,so having a spec tire to contain cost arguement is crap and if you've been racing for any length of time you would get that.

Why the f**k would you want to have to dink around with shaving,cycling,sweet spots,its endless with this tire brand we are made to use.If we have to use a spec tire make it whatever,Hoosier,BFG,Goodyear,Avon or Kumho,as long as its a true molded dot race tire.You could still negotiate the price as we did with Toyo(although $163 shaved shipped to the door is a joke for this tire)

Bottomline a open tire rule breeds competition from the other tire companies which at the end of the day would keep cost down.But everyone will start using the faster more exspensive tire and I don't want to spend that much for tires,cost will spiral out of control.....well guess what????????

They don't call it spec Formula one or Spec Nascar or Spec World Challenge, so what's your point Dave?

Nothing has spiraled yet, and the sky is still up there. Sorry you guys never figured out the RA-1, I guess you'll do the same and blame it all on the tire this year too. The NorPac div champ bought 3 sets of tires last year. Lots of folks chasing him bought a lot more only because they just couldn't get the tires dialed in.

And whats all the complaining about $5 per tire. If that's going to break your bank, then just run full tread and make them last, cuz your sure not going to win with that tight of a budget.

-bw

Easy Mr. Defensive. So far you've basically criticized anyone that has had a different experience than you. Does that mean they are any less valid than your own opinion? [Confused]

I think a guy like Jason Saini realizing there is an issue with the tires, might mean we have a problem.

But then again, I'm just one of those guys that thinks open tires might not be such a bad idea after all. Positives and drawbacks to both plans.

--------------------
Blake Clements

PhillipsRacePrep/SP Induction Systems/East Street Racing/MiataCage.com/Carbotech/WBR Graphics

www.blakeclements.com

Cajun Miata Man Verified Driver
Overdog Driver

Region: Houston; SWDIV
Car #: 15
Year : 99
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quote:
Originally posted by Casey Z:
Nope, it was Feb of 08'.

http://forum.specmiata.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?/topic/15/105.html

I stand corrected. Thanks. That old thread has some pretty funny thoughts about the R888 back then.

And you know what is not so funny. NASA selects the R888 and most likely highly influenced the SCCA's tire choice to the same tire. Then NASA gives a reprieve for the year to run the RA-1 and the SCCA is left holding the bag.

Got to love it! It's a mad, mad world. We took it up the backside on this one.

--------------------
James York


sponsored by:
Stan's Auto Center, Lafayette LA
powered by:
East Street Racing, Memphis TN
set up guru:
Gilfus Racing, Austin TX

B Wilson Verified Driver Series Champ
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quote:
Originally posted by Blake Clements:
quote:
Originally posted by B Wilson:
quote:
Originally posted by volante:
Guys,this is barely a spec class,3 different cars,motors from 200,000 milers to $7000 barely legal pro-builts,exhaust,radiators and every other mickey mouse invention we see every weekend in the tech shed.
Spec is a stretch to say the least.Why not choose whatever tire you feel comfortable with.Whether longevity,price or feel comes in to play is up to you,the racer.Some people will always outspend the next guy,you can't stop that,so having a spec tire to contain cost arguement is crap and if you've been racing for any length of time you would get that.

Why the f**k would you want to have to dink around with shaving,cycling,sweet spots,its endless with this tire brand we are made to use.If we have to use a spec tire make it whatever,Hoosier,BFG,Goodyear,Avon or Kumho,as long as its a true molded dot race tire.You could still negotiate the price as we did with Toyo(although $163 shaved shipped to the door is a joke for this tire)

Bottomline a open tire rule breeds competition from the other tire companies which at the end of the day would keep cost down.But everyone will start using the faster more exspensive tire and I don't want to spend that much for tires,cost will spiral out of control.....well guess what????????

They don't call it spec Formula one or Spec Nascar or Spec World Challenge, so what's your point Dave?

Nothing has spiraled yet, and the sky is still up there. Sorry you guys never figured out the RA-1, I guess you'll do the same and blame it all on the tire this year too. The NorPac div champ bought 3 sets of tires last year. Lots of folks chasing him bought a lot more only because they just couldn't get the tires dialed in.

And whats all the complaining about $5 per tire. If that's going to break your bank, then just run full tread and make them last, cuz your sure not going to win with that tight of a budget.

-bw

Easy Mr. Defensive. So far you've basically criticized anyone that has had a different experience than you. Does that mean they are any less valid than your own opinion? [Confused]

I think a guy like Jason Saini realizing there is an issue with the tires, might mean we have a problem.

But then again, I'm just one of those guys that thinks open tires might not be such a bad idea after all.

It's not just my experience, I've heard a lot more people from across the country say they haven't see the problem yet. I respect Jason's and others knowledge and experience, although the race referenced was at an abrasive track with ambient temps that would likely grain any soft compound tire. And from past posts I know who tends to lean against Toyo.

I'm just saying the jury is still out for a lot of people, yet Toyo has already been tried and hung by a lot of folks, some who have yet to even race on the 888s.

-bw

--------------------
Bruce Wilson
2010 Oregon Region Champ
2010 Monte Shelton Driver of the Year
2010 25 Hours of Thunderhill E3 and Under 2 liter Overall Champion
Oregon Region SM Class Advisor

Blake Clements Verified Driver Series Champ
MegaModerator

Region: SW - Houston
Car #: 6
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oops repost.

--------------------
Blake Clements

PhillipsRacePrep/SP Induction Systems/East Street Racing/MiataCage.com/Carbotech/WBR Graphics

www.blakeclements.com

Blake Clements Verified Driver Series Champ
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quote:
Originally posted by B Wilson:
quote:
Originally posted by Blake Clements:
quote:
Originally posted by B Wilson:
quote:
Originally posted by volante:
Guys,this is barely a spec class,3 different cars,motors from 200,000 milers to $7000 barely legal pro-builts,exhaust,radiators and every other mickey mouse invention we see every weekend in the tech shed.
Spec is a stretch to say the least.Why not choose whatever tire you feel comfortable with.Whether longevity,price or feel comes in to play is up to you,the racer.Some people will always outspend the next guy,you can't stop that,so having a spec tire to contain cost arguement is crap and if you've been racing for any length of time you would get that.

Why the f**k would you want to have to dink around with shaving,cycling,sweet spots,its endless with this tire brand we are made to use.If we have to use a spec tire make it whatever,Hoosier,BFG,Goodyear,Avon or Kumho,as long as its a true molded dot race tire.You could still negotiate the price as we did with Toyo(although $163 shaved shipped to the door is a joke for this tire)

Bottomline a open tire rule breeds competition from the other tire companies which at the end of the day would keep cost down.But everyone will start using the faster more exspensive tire and I don't want to spend that much for tires,cost will spiral out of control.....well guess what????????

They don't call it spec Formula one or Spec Nascar or Spec World Challenge, so what's your point Dave?

Nothing has spiraled yet, and the sky is still up there. Sorry you guys never figured out the RA-1, I guess you'll do the same and blame it all on the tire this year too. The NorPac div champ bought 3 sets of tires last year. Lots of folks chasing him bought a lot more only because they just couldn't get the tires dialed in.

And whats all the complaining about $5 per tire. If that's going to break your bank, then just run full tread and make them last, cuz your sure not going to win with that tight of a budget.

-bw

Easy Mr. Defensive. So far you've basically criticized anyone that has had a different experience than you. Does that mean they are any less valid than your own opinion? [Confused]

I think a guy like Jason Saini realizing there is an issue with the tires, might mean we have a problem.

But then again, I'm just one of those guys that thinks open tires might not be such a bad idea after all.

It's not just my experience, I've heard a lot more people from across the country say they haven't see the problem yet. I respect Jason's and others knowledge and experience, although the race referenced was at an abrasive track with ambient temps that would likely grain any soft compound tire. And from past posts I know who tends to lean against Toyo.

I'm just saying the jury is still out for a lot of people, yet Toyo has already been tried and hung by a lot of folks, some who have yet to even race on the 888s.

-bw

I would venture to say I've probably got the 2nd or 3rd most laps in SM EVER at the track mentioned and I never had a problem with excessive RA1 wear as mentioned for the R888.

I know a certain individual that started working with the R888 middle of last year trying to get it to work properly. This person has had the same problems as everyone else that has mentioned wear and longevity problems throughout the run.

Then again, we may just not know what we're doing. [Wink]

--------------------
Blake Clements

PhillipsRacePrep/SP Induction Systems/East Street Racing/MiataCage.com/Carbotech/WBR Graphics

www.blakeclements.com

B Wilson Verified Driver Series Champ
Gold Member

Region: Oregon
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The 888 is a very different tire, so I won't say it will wear the same as the RA-1. The one good thing so far is that it is more of a race tire than the RA-1. The whole center wear if using low pressures is just strange. But I know that there have been national front runners getting 10+ cycles out of the 888 in relatively warm temps. 10+ cycles on a 2/32-3/32 shave is fine in my book... Most of the faster folks I talk to just want at least 2 compettitive weekends out of a set of tires, and 10+ cycles should definitely get 2 weekends, unless there's an enduro or double involved.

-bw

--------------------
Bruce Wilson
2010 Oregon Region Champ
2010 Monte Shelton Driver of the Year
2010 25 Hours of Thunderhill E3 and Under 2 liter Overall Champion
Oregon Region SM Class Advisor

Casey Z Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Region: MidDiv
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quote:
Originally posted by B Wilson:
The 888 is a very different tire, so I won't say it will wear the same as the RA-1. The one good thing so far is that it is more of a race tire than the RA-1. The whole center wear if using low pressures is just strange. But I know that there have been national front runners getting 10+ cycles out of the 888 in relatively warm temps. 10+ cycles on a 2/32-3/32 shave is fine in my book... Most of the faster folks I talk to just want at least 2 compettitive weekends out of a set of tires, and 10+ cycles should definitely get 2 weekends, unless there's an enduro or double involved.

-bw

Bruce, could you go ahead and share your setup so everyone can try it and see if their wear, etc improves? If you have the answer I am sure there are a bunch of people that would like to try it...

--------------------
----------------
Z Brothers Racing / East Street Auto

Casey Z - 1.6 Kettle
MidDiv National #13

B Wilson Verified Driver Series Champ
Gold Member

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Hey wait a minute [Big Grin]

Casey, Blake, don't get me wrong. I'm not comparing my knowledge and experience with Jason or any other nationally known hot shoe.

Okay, you asked.

-3 front, -3.5 back, zero toe front, and 1/32 in back, 3.5 caster both sides, zero rake. I won't divulge pressures, but I will say we successfully ran with the same cold/hot as RA-1.

-bw

--------------------
Bruce Wilson
2010 Oregon Region Champ
2010 Monte Shelton Driver of the Year
2010 25 Hours of Thunderhill E3 and Under 2 liter Overall Champion
Oregon Region SM Class Advisor

 
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