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Author Topic: 2009 Great Lakes - spec tire or still open tire?
Motor City Hamilton
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Anyone see a discussion coming for the region in the off-season about spec tires in Great Lakes? I'm not a national guy so trying to decide which tires to be on for next season.

Our local track, Waterford Hills, MI is considering matching up with the National spec tire rule Toyo R-888s. For Great Lakes regionals, does it still look like open tires for 2009?

Keith

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I am the current chairman of the champ series. We will make the decision once the 2009 GCR is out and thoroughly reviewed along with member input and committee input.

db

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Please leave it open tires for Great Lakes !!

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quote:
Originally posted by D.B. Cutler:
Please leave it open tires for Great Lakes !!

Thank you for your input.....

I HAD to do that...

db

Motor City Hamilton
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So if I intend to run only regional events at Grattan, Mid-Ohio and Gingerman, I can run Hoosiers? R6 and/or SMH? And if I run Toyos, I'll be competing against some who are on Hoosiers, right?

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Please leave it open tires for Great Lakes !! II

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Den

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quote:
Originally posted by Motor City Hamilton:
So if I intend to run only regional events at Grattan, Mid-Ohio and Gingerman, I can run Hoosiers? R6 and/or SMH? And if I run Toyos, I'll be competing against some who are on Hoosiers, right?

Thats the way its been the past 3 years. Open tires for the regional's has worked out really well. Most of the drop in national guys run their toyos and still beat those running hoosiers/kumhos/hankooks/etc... Tires don't win races.

Around these parts Hoosier sells hoosier not toyos. GLDiv was one of the last divisions to go SM back when we were still CenDiv and I think in those years since we have grown the class quite well--all while keeping open tires at the regional level.

db

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quote:
Originally posted by spdmonkey:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Motor City Hamilton:
[qb] So if I intend to run only regional events at Grattan, Mid-Ohio and Gingerman, I can run Hoosiers? R6 and/or SMH? And if I run Toyos, I'll be competing against some who are on Hoosiers, right?

Thats the way its been the past 3 years. Open tires for the regional's has worked out really well. Most of the drop in national guys run their toyos and still beat those running hoosiers/kumhos/hankooks/etc... Tires don't win races.

I agree leave it open!This is a big deal for regional guy's that only run regionals.As far as National guy's and myself coming to a regional event,most of us don't care what the other guy's are running and I will still run my Toyos.

Not that I'm one of the fast guy's! [Big Grin]

--------------------
Bob
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Guys,

This is a sensitive subject with me. I've been very pleased that the GLD has kept regional races as open tires for the past three years. And from the initial response here, one would think that would be the case going forward. However, the SMAC has "overwhelming opinions" from racers that they want the same spec tire for regional races as national races. So their input into the CRB was just that. Fortunately for now, the Board has not mandated the R888 for regional races. But I doubt that we have seen the end of this push. If you truely have an opinion on this subject (one way or the other), write a letter stating your opinion to the CRB and SMAC. I believe the "overwhelming opinions" the SMAC received may have been in the way the question was asked. I find it hard to believe that 80% of the regional drivers would prefer to have to run a spec tire at regional events.

I like my Hoosiers and enjoy not having to pay extra to get them shaved. I believe the last SM6 tires I had delivered to the track cost about $151 per tire. And Hoosier is at the track to mount & balance, or take care of any issues.

Jerry

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I've got several sets of RA1s I'd like to use up, but if the R888 feels better, guess what will be on the car.

Dan Tiley Verified Driver Series Champ
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quote:
Originally posted by Jerry Cabe:
Guys,

This is a sensitive subject with me. I've been very pleased that the GLD has kept regional races as open tires for the past three years. And from the initial response here, one would think that would be the case going forward. However, the SMAC has "overwhelming opinions" from racers that they want the same spec tire for regional races as national races. So their input into the CRB was just that. Fortunately for now, the Board has not mandated the R888 for regional races. But I doubt that we have seen the end of this push. If you truely have an opinion on this subject (one way or the other), write a letter stating your opinion to the CRB and SMAC. I believe the "overwhelming opinions" the SMAC received may have been in the way the question was asked. I find it hard to believe that 80% of the regional drivers would prefer to have to run a spec tire at regional events.

I like my Hoosiers and enjoy not having to pay extra to get them shaved. I believe the last SM6 tires I had delivered to the track cost about $151 per tire. And Hoosier is at the track to mount & balance, or take care of any issues.

Jerry

Just curious... what is the actual argument for leaving the tire open for Regionals only in a "Spec" class? The Toyos are reasonably priced (same or even less than Hoosier even with shaving cost), easy to get a hold of, and remain consistent throughout a race. Everyone complains about having to shave them, but I certainly don't shave them in my garage... I just check the box on the order form, and they come to my door at whatever depth I ask for.

I don't really care (that much) which way the series ends up going... I just haven't heard a good argument for why to leave the cars "Spec", and the tires "Open". Seems counter-intuitive to me.

BTW.. "Because I have three sets of Sears Superguards in my garage" is NOT a good argument for why the tire rule should be open. [shame]

--------------------
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B(Kuch) Kucera 45 Verified Driver
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I don't see what the big deal is spec or not to spec!I understand a spec series but at a regional level I think a driver should have his choice,now at a national level that's a diff.story.

The only real problem I have is track support,I always see a Hoosier truck but never a Toyo truck even at a National event.Don't get me wrong I do like the Toyo's and that's all I run,but if there's going to be a spec tire they should have a truck at all event's.I think that should have been part of the tire choice disicion (track support).I know there is alot of event's to cover but they could have some kind of support at the track.

Just thinking out loud! [scratchchin]

--------------------
Bob
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Hi Dan,

I would not have expected someone question the intentions of the "spec" class that has a big RE logo on their car. [duck]

Actually, you and I started into SM about the same time; a time when there was not a spec tire. Along came the first contract that placed a spec tire on the national drivers,but no requirement on the regional driver. I tried the Toyo for a couple years, but always felt more comfortable with the Hoosiers. At that time the Great Lakes division choose not to require a spec tire for regional races; in fact took the opposite approach, that a spec tire was not allowed to be specified for regional races within the divisional championship.

We all know that SM is not the spec class that many think it is. It is not even close to what SRF has. There are haves and have nots in the equipment category. I choose to be a have not and am happy to compete with what I have and what I feel comfortable with for tires. I still look at SM regional racing as an entry level class.

I also don't have an issue with having a spec tire for regional races IF that is what the majority of regional racers desire. I certainly have an opinion on this subject, but will go along with what the majority wish, if there is a clear request for opinions. If you see the basis for the SMAC's "Strong Recommendation" to the CRB in another post on the selection of the R888, you may see my real issue on this subject.

Bottom line is I don't have a good answer to your question, just my opinion. But I will offer my opinion to all that will listen.

Cheers,

Jerry

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Dan Tiley Verified Driver Series Champ
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quote:
Originally posted by Jerry Cabe:
Hi Dan,

I would not have expected someone question the intentions of the "spec" class that has a big RE logo on their car. [duck]

Touche!

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Dan Tiley

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One thing to keep in mind is that the Toyo and the Hoosier are not the only game in town. If a guy wanted to run something even cheaper than these two tires, he could get a hold of some Kumho's or something similar and still go out and have fun at a regional.

Plus keeping it open allows people who aren't happy running full tread Toyos in the rain to run something more confidence inspiring. (Hoosier rain tire, Hoosier Dirt Stockers, Sears Superguards...)

People keep saying that there's no difference between a regional and a national. That's not correct. Regionals are supposed to be the more layed back, "hey I have a car to go bomb around in and have fun" level of racing. Nationals are supposed to be for the more serious racer who may have intentions of going to the Runoffs.

I say let people have a choice to run what they want to in regionals. Don't force them into having to run the National tire.

soupy
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If the BOD picked the R888 because it is the best tire for SM, that means that every other tire is inferior. Therefore why should you care that someone else is running something less than you if you are on the best tire?


OPEN TIRE

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DB, where do you find the Kumho's cheaper than $151 shaved? The best price I can find on the 710 is $183. The old VRV700's are on closeout and are $158.

I do agree there is a lot of value in keeping the Regional tires open. If nothing else, it teaches up and coming racers that money wins races and that you can still have a good time on Sears RoadHandlers trying to avoid DFL.

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quote:
Originally posted by soupy:
If the BOD picked the R888 because it is the best tire for SM, that means that every other tire is inferior.

[rolling on floor laughin]

D.B. Cutler Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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quote:
Originally posted by Kent Carter:
DB, where do you find the Kumho's cheaper than $151 shaved?

Oops, sorry. That was just and example.

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D.B... I know, but I am curious what tire would be cheaper for those of us who just want to knock around in regionals.

I hate burning up my good race rubber when I play in ITA.

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Kent,
Actually last year Tire Rack had them on sale for $130 in 205-50-15 and I picked up a bunch. They were not "old". Just trying to sell more. I like the V710 and enjoy running on them as I have used kumho's for more years than I can remember.

db

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Monkey, ahh... a sale. When I was running Kumhos, there were the monster size and a good sale was <$200 a donut.

But.... since I don't get to buy all my tires on sale... where are people finding good tires for less than $150 a pop on a routine basis?

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In case anyone cares. I vote for open tires in GL too. [soapbox]
Rick

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I'm for open too!

I think a prime example for cheaper tires would be my first year-- in order to save some money, I bought a couple sets of used hancooks. I knew I wasn't going to be running up front (still am not) so I saved $ with the used 'cooks.

--------------------
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Motor City Hamilton
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There is a class for that. It's called ITA and you can run open tire and still get fun track time. Spec Miata is a spec class and should have ONE spec tire.

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Toyo RA-1 or Toyo R888 up until 7-1-09...then mandatory R888 ...correct?

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quote:
Originally posted by motorrock:
Toyo RA-1 or Toyo R888 up until 7-1-09...then mandatory R888 ...correct?

So far that is the word, but I was under the impression that the GL division was considering allowing RA1 rains to be used longer.

Jerry Cabe...Any update?
Rick

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Rules are being written. Will be finalized at Stewards Seminar. There will be SM and another variant of SM to be determined at this time. I think that I heard from a good cross section and there WILL be an open tire variant in GLDiv for '09.

db

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SMT in the NE was developed last year to run open tires.

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I'm planning on switching to the R888 for my "slicks" but I really like the idea of allowing drivers to use RA1 for rains. I don't want to spend money this year to buy two sets of slicks as well as a set of rains.

Please note that I'm only talking about this effecting points for SCCA Regionals but not Nationals.

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Any new developments/decisions?

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Denny,

As of right now, the GCR is the only thing to go by. It has the R888 as the spec tire for Nationals, but leaves Regional as Open Tire. The FastTrack proposal from last December to require the R888 for Regionals (either 1/1/09 or 7/1/09) seems to have lost steam with the BOD. I would expect the GLD will be issuing SM tire rules after this weekend's Official's Seminar.

Jerry

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I want to thank Jerry Cabe for stepping up to join the Champ Series committee and doing the points as well. We now have 2 SM drivers on the committee again. Rules should be ready after this weekend. I'm trying to finalize now, but not getting much work done as I am sick as a dog and delirious with a 102+ fever. There will be open tires in GLDiv whether its thru the GCR or a separate class like SMT.

Dave Brown
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Has a decision been made for the regionals on having open tires?

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Rules have been written and submitted to the Exec Steward and the SCCA National for review. While not official yet consider the policies of previous years to be carried over. In other words its OPEN season. SMT remains for those regions within the division that wish to spec a tire.

db

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Thank you for the update

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Three cheers for Great Lakes. Leave it to us righteous Midwesterners to do the right thing!
Rick
P.S. Now all I have to do is shave my new old RA1 rains.

--------------------
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DB,

Wait, now I'm confused. So SM is open for tires but SMT is for a spec tire ? Are we only going to have SM in GLDiv and not SMT for 2009 ? If we're going to have both, what's the spec tire for SMT ?

If an R888 is burnt up in just one session of a private track rental day does anyone hear the tires owner swearing ?

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Dan,
The GCR still has regional SM as open tire with many Divisions opting to spec the R888 as it keeps things easy. We GLDiv peeps are keeping it easy by doing what we have done in the past and that is going open with SM, but also giving REGIONS the option to have a spec tire in their races. That class is SMT and the tire they spec will be in the supps for that race only. The reason you are confused is we WERE going to have GLDivs's open tire class be called SMT if the SCCA BoD mandated a tire for regionals. Since they never did it just made sense to keep things as they were. Now the compliance fee is being worked on too. I hammered at the BoD and the CRB at the national convention to lower the regional cost to $5 a race and I think Jim Drago is trying to help on that. The other option is having the region putting on the race waive that fee. Or at least make it $10 for the weekend of doubles. In essence they eat it in exchange for heavy SM turnout. Its worth a try to ask. I should have the rules posted on the GLDiv site very soon. I just need to get the ok from Topeka and our Executive Steward.

db

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Jerry & Dave, you guys put the 'Great' in Great Lakes. [thumbsup]
-D

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Anyone know the difference between the SM Hoosier tire and the Hoosier R6? They are the same part number in the Hoosier catelog. The SM Hoosier is cheaper. Do they need to be shaved or just run em?

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Price is the big one. Neither require any shaving. I bought a set of the regular R6's last summer, not knowing about the SM tire & I was terribly disappointed. First off, I didn't have the HP to motor them down the straights & I was overwhelmed by the grip in the corners.... too much grip as far as I was concerned!! I was wayyyy happier with a three year old set of Hoosiers that Dave Watts gave me at the end of the '07 season, not sure what they were exactly, but free & had just the right amount of grip to be fast at Nelson Ledges.

That's my experience with the regular R6, but I don't have the SM version datapoint to compare it to FWIW.

Eric

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Motor,

I inherited a set of what I believe were the SM6 when I bought my car in 2005. I started running the Spec Toyo at the beginning of the 2006 season. After an off-road experience during a race which left me with a flat Toyo, I put the old Hoosiers on and was pleasently suprised. Since then I have mostly run the Hoosier SM's with no complaints. I have occasionally switched back to the Toyo's, but have always felt the Hoosiers fit my driving better. Since SM has always been open tire in regional racing, I've always gone with what I felt comfortable.

Eric's comments on the "older Hoosiers" may be because after 3 years they had lost some of their grip, and that fits his driving style better (insert your own comment on Eric's driving here).

The differences between the R and the SM will have to be answered by Hoosier. I would contend that there is no difference other than price. And no, the Hoosiers don't require you to pay to throw away rubber by shaving. Also, with my slow (according to competitor and official times) driving style, the tires have good longevity. If I push them too hard (since I have an open diff), they will get too hot and feel greasy, but I can let them cool down and it moderately returns.

Jerry

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Just driving SM until the F-1 car is ready.

EBudman Verified Driver
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quote:
Originally posted by Jerry Cabe:
Eric's comments on the "older Hoosiers" may be because after 3 years they had lost some of their grip, and that fits his driving style better (insert your own comment on Eric's driving here).

Hehehehe..... Jerry thinks I have a driving "style"..!!! [rolling on floor laughin] [rolling on floor laughin] [rolling on floor laughin]

That's just too dang funny. [Big Grin]

... and for the record, I've never called Jerry slow.... clumsy maybe, but this is the first record of that as well.... [duck]

soupy
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OH.. don't be modest Eric, you have style.
It's only a matter of what kind.

--------------------
Charlie Campbell
Race Engineering
carbotech brakes

Motor City Hamilton
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I ran four seasons of ITC on Hoosier R6. Some guys were experimenting with A6, but my front tire temps with the R6 was in the sweat spot for the R6 and a bit above the A6. I considered running R6 up front on my front drive Honda Civic and A6 on the rear, but never did because it would limit the ability to rotate tires front to rear.

I have experience with the R6. For me, they ran just about as quick from the first run to the last corded lap. If open tire is allowed for regionals in Great Lakes, then I am trying to decide between the R6 and SM6. Do the SM6 have grooves or tread? The R6 is a DOT slick with just two ribs around the center of the tire. I haven't seen the SM6.

spdmonkey Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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its identical in looks. the compound is the previous hoosier. At least it was last year.

db

motorrock
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R6 and the SM6 are the identical tire....no difference at all....except price, $210 vs. $164

--------------------
philstireservice.com
philstireservice@aol.com

BGR Made Donation to Website
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We are considering running Hoosier this year, The past few years we ran the toyo's so my son Danny could run a couple of national events, However with limited funds this year ( both boys in college) we need a tire with more durability than the national tire seems to be getting. So we will only run regionals.
One item that has bothered me is buying my toyos from the Hoosier guy.
As has been mentioned numerous times the decision to select Toyos as the national tire was driven by economics.
That being the case , none of us can change the decision that was made, but we can decide where to spend our money , I feel like I should support the tire company that supports us, so the decision to try hoosiers.
Now for the question where are folks buying the Hoosier during the off season.

Jerry Cabe Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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BGR,

Contact Terry Gilvin at Hoosier Tire Midwest - Plymouth. 574-936-8344. They have great trackside support at many of the GLD and beyond events. They will ship or have them for you at one of the local races, just call and make arrangements. Just as a reminder, make sure you request the SM6 tire.

Jerry

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Just driving SM until the F-1 car is ready.

 
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