Region: Detroit
Car #: 5
Year : 1991 Posts: 1029
Status: Offline
posted
The SCCA Compliance Fee people were there. (I was happy to see my money being spent!) I know they checked the top 5 in the National for compression but I don't know what else. Also, I don't know about the Regional. Can anybody shed some light on what else was checked ?
My understanding is that they were getting inconsistant readings on the whisler (sp). Post told me that they got two very different readings on his car. I think Mark filed a protest with the SotM based on the inconsistant readings but I don't know the outcome.
Mark's an honest racer. He wouldn't do anything "funny" on purpose.
Region: OVR
Car #: 08
Year : 95 Posts: 644
Status: Offline
posted
I was hanging around tech for group 2 and they were still trying to sort thru all the SM stuff. I "heard" that a set of cams were going to Topeka, but I can't confirm as I was staying out of the way. I was not impressed with how our compliance fee $$$ were being spent. In fact I expected a bit more controlled atmosphere.
I 100% agree with the comment about Mark... I've always been impressed with how well the car is set for each track. Was just curious to know what happened.
Region: Detroit
Car #: 5
Year : 1991 Posts: 1029
Status: Offline
posted
Yep, you're right. Those cars should have been in an off limits garage not out in the open behind the garage where anyone (myself included) able to walk by and see what was going on.
I was helping a friend push an S2 through the scales and there were the SM cars just sitting off to the side.
Qik Nip
Loose Member '09 & '10 Great Lakes Regional Points Champion
Region: Cincinnati Great Lakes
Car #: 60
Year : 1990 Posts: 1487
Status: Offline
posted
As mentioned above, the Regional event was won by Gary Schultz. I came in second and third was all but sowed up by John Guthrie when a Nissan spun in front of him in T12 resulting in he and the #4 car loosing their positions to the #5 SM. Sorry, but I don't have the timing sheet with me, and I don't recall that third place driver's name.
As for the Compliance team went, after Saturday qualifying they checked cages and body clearances and after the Sunday race, rear end ratios, sway bar dimensions and compression ratios. Rick
-------------------- Fortune Cookie Racing SM 60 Directions for use: Race, Rumple, Repair ... Repeat!
WARNING LOOOONG but needed post! Hi guys, Many of you do not know me, so perhaps a quick intro! My name is Jim Locke and I run a small prep shop out of Pittsburgh. I have been very blessed to work on many types of cars, in many different venues. (There is a reason I'm explaining my background....) I run Ford Motor Companys Land speed record team. Fastest production V8 pass at Bonneville in history. 239 mph. THOROUGH tech inspection at the Salt Flats. Spent the last few years building rear gears and transmissions for ARCA and Nascar truck teams. I have driven ARCA cars and been thru both ARCA and Nascar inspections with the "Whistler" Which brings me to my point. For those who don't know what a "Whistler" is. Here is the link http://www.katechengines.com/corporate_services/whistler.php If you haven't seen it, you likely soon will. It works by entering the info for it to calculate the swept volume of the engine. This is simple math. Then it uses acoustics to find the remaining chamber volume at piston TDC. It's really a musical instrument more than anything. Blow air into the chamber and the volume affects the frequency that comes back out thru a "listening" tube. The frequency is temperature and type of gas in the chamber dependant. The devices operator measures air temp inside and enters that number into the whistler. HE IS THEN SUPPOSED TO BLOW COMPRESSED AIR INTO THE CHAMBER TO PURGE THE CHAMBER OF ANY FUEL VAPORS. These will alter the frequency heard. Think of breathing helium and then talking. This is a critical step to follow when compression ratio testing is done. It can alter the reading by five compression points or more. Lets go back memory lane now to Mid-Ohio Post National tech inspection on May 31st 2009. I was there in the capacity of prep guy for Gary Shultz in SM and a guy in an ITS BMW. Gary finished fifth in the National that morning and I was reprepping the car for the regional later in the day which he won. (Go Gary!!!) I heard that Mark was getting tossed out. I finished the car and went to see. Marks no cheater. I found out that tech was using a whistler and that was the reason for the DQ. Whistlers are damn accurate WHEN used correctly. I noted that the unit was brand new. I asked tech man if he ever used it as it sure was purty. He said first time ever today. Hmmmmmmmmm. I helped Marks guy pull the cams for tech and then went back to work on my customers stuff. SOOOO later Gary wins and it's OUR turn under the whistlers evil eye or ear as it were. Naturally I watch quite carefully as the test is performed, just as I thought no chamber purge done, we did pass with a 9.2 on our 1600. I then asked Mark Bennet if a fuel sample was taken on his deal. Yes it was, running the fuel pump with engine off and the fuel port opened. Did some more fumes get into Marks than anyone elses? We will never know. I pulled the tech guy aside and informed him of that purging is a needed part of the procedure for accuracy. He balked a bit till I picked up HIS instruction sheet with the whistler and showed him the deal. He admitted that he had not done it as he had no compressed air supply. Umm the whistler had a compressed air line hooked up to it for operation. I let it go and walked away. Mark had to leave as he had a 50th wedding anniversary party in his family. I feel he has more than grounds for an appeal. But that is completely his call. I feel that he was thrown to the stewards by techs lack of familiarity with their new tool. I called Katech today, maker of the whistler and talked to Jason tech guy there and went over the procedures and fuel vapors effect on measured compression. He said it MUST be done. Use air, as even nitrogen will screw it up. Can't use it on the Space Shuttle tho, he joked. So draw your own conclusions from here and be forewarned of incorrect use of the "Whistler"!!!!! Love Jim
Region: Florida - 11
Car #: 14
Year : 92 Posts: 68
Status: Offline
posted
quote:Originally posted by Qik Nip: 8mm was the answer I got. Key area of interest was the hood's front edges. Rick
This is consistent with what I've heard previously from a reliable source - compliance tech inspections will be specifically looking at the gaps and panel alignment where the headlight doors and hood meet; seems the quest to make that area a forced-air inlet is getting out of hand
-------------------- The best way to make a small fortune in racing is to start out with a big one.
Region: Detroit
Car #: 5
Year : 1991 Posts: 1029
Status: Offline
posted
Ugh. Let me get this straight. So we as a group requested, paid for and are now getting a more intensive post race compliance check than most of the other classes in the SCCA. However, the people sent out to do this compliance check don't follow their own procedures which results in a competitor having to turn around and protest the compliance check ?!! That's troubling to say the least.
Also, checking the hood gaps on cars that have had their hoods off or have been bumped at least a dozen times ? Plus, the gap isn't the problem, it's having the hood proud to the headlight cover and it's the oldest trick in the book.
Is the knowledge gained from the compliance checks shared throughout the country so that the process can be improved ?
Region: cincy
Car #: 79
Year : 92 Posts: 1495
Status: Offline
posted
Whistler is great to have and we want a meaningful tech but we also should have personnel qualified to use the said tech tools and also checking for meaningful performance infractions.
You also have to ask was the incorrect procedure also used on all that passed the whistler test? So what does that mean?
Pat
-------------------- keeping the faith for the 1.6
Region: Waterford Hills
Car #: 38
Year : 96 Posts: 348
Status: Offline
posted
The Whistler is a great tool but is inherently prone to error. If a car is found noncompliant with the Whistler it should be followed up by a disassembly of the engine and a CC measurement should be done. That’s the only way to be accurate.
Said another way. If you blow the Whistle it’s time to pull the head and dig a little deeper. A DQ based just on the results of the Whistler is like a DQ for an oversized restrictor measured with dial calipers. Wrong tool to be 100% accurate.
I think this happened last year at the NASA Nats. Cars failed the Whistler one day only to pass on the next. It's a good tool to get you close but not exact.
My 2 cent anyway.
-------------------- Ralph Provitz #38 2008 WHRRI SM Champion 2008 WHRRI Top 10 Overall V2 Motorsports, Race support, Data Dude
Region: chicago
Car #: 72 and ?
Year : 90 and 90 Posts: 1051
Status: Offline
posted
Back when we ran the Rolex series, we were whistled and pumped EVERY weekend. But always first thing in the morning with an ICE COLD engine. The colder the engine, the less correction factor used and the more accurate the tool.
Dave
-------------------- Advanced Autosports, The Midwests leader in Spec Miata Service, Parts and Rentals 608-313-1230 Authorised Spec Miata service center www.advanced-autosports.com
Region: cincy
Car #: 79
Year : 92 Posts: 1495
Status: Offline
posted
quote:Originally posted by 38BFAST: The Whistler is a great tool but is inherently prone to error. If a car is found noncompliant with the Whistler it should be followed up by a disassembly of the engine and a CC measurement should be done. That’s the only way to be accurate.
Said another way. If you blow the Whistle it’s time to pull the head and dig a little deeper. A DQ based just on the results of the Whistler is like a DQ for an oversized restrictor measured with dial calipers. Wrong tool to be 100% accurate.
I think this happened last year at the NASA Nats. Cars failed the Whistler one day only to pass on the next. It's a good tool to get you close but not exact.
My 2 cent anyway.
At the NASA Nats last year we went thru tech with Lamb and Bennett and my son Shawn. Bennett and Lamb were checked to be out of compliance and we were actually way low at 8.6. The next day the whistler indicated that all had passed.
Not a tool that I can put a whole lot of faith in, IMHO.
Like you said if you fail, further test should be preformed before a DQ is handed out.
I would also like to say that MB is a straight shooter also
Pat
-------------------- keeping the faith for the 1.6
OK got the skinny on water in chamber. It affects speed of travel of the sound but not frequency and the effect is EXTREMELY slight. Sooo, said to be a non issue. Jim Oh and I completely agree on teardown before DQ!!!!
...by John Nesbitt, a Formula Ford racer and an SCCA Steward. It's a short, not-quite-wallet-sized discussion of what drivers should know about the SCCA protest & appeal process. Print it out, stick it in your bag full of socks and nomex jammies, and find some time to look at it BEFORE you might need it.
I'm also a Steward...and I'm baffled by the "must send motor to Topeka" issue at the Mid-Ohio Nat'l. The GCR makes no mention of this, neither in the overall "Sporting Regulations", nor in the "Spec Miata" category rules. I'm not sure what empowers local Stewards or a Nat'l "Compliance Team" to require "ship to Topeka". Anybody out there care to defend that position ? I'm willing to listen.
SCCA itself specifies a method for measuring compression ratio, which you can find at:
and no place can the words "Katech" or "Whistler" be found here. In addition, note that while this year's RunOffs Supps (May Fastrack) make mention of the Katech Whistler (see section 10.3), you'll ALSO note that even the Supps language treads lightly around the veracity of the Whistler as a measurement tool, describing its use for "quick estimates of measurement". "Estimates" doesn't inspire confidence as a tool used for a DQ.
Region: cincy
Car #: 79
Year : 92 Posts: 1495
Status: Offline
posted
In kart racing with 2 cycle motors we use the following procedure.
In 2cyle tech. we use a burrette with Marvel Mystery oil, bring the cylinder just a crack before TDC, fill the cylinder with the prescribed amout of fluid and than rotae the crank to the other side of TDC. If any fluid comes out of the top of the plug your DQed. Wouldn't something like that work for our racing? It is a great way to check and is non invasive.
Pat
-------------------- keeping the faith for the 1.6
Region: NeOh
Car #: 45
Year : 1991 Posts: 858
Status: Offline
posted
I think Mark took the DQ because he had to go to a family thing but I can't speak for him.
It was all ready 3:00 pm and our race was at 8:45 am and I think they should have figured it out by then.
In Mark's defense I feel bad for him,yes the car is probably tweaked to the limits but not past them.Mark has been doing this for a long time and is a straight shooter.I'm sure the car is all legal.I hate to see someone loose there points for a tool that is not 100% accurate when used properly!
Region: STL
Car #: 35
Year : #795 SRF Posts: 1209
Status: Offline
posted
Sounds like they didn't have anyone rotate the engine to maximum squish.
I've witnessed some expert whistler handlers and some amateurs. I ended up giving some pointers to the "amateurs" and they listened, grudgingly, and didn't say thanks until after my suggestions helped. The experts pulled a 9.3-9.4 out of my 1.6 which is right on the money and what I would expect from a strong 1.6 like mine.
-------------------- Rich Wiese
Spec Wrecker Ford
Qik Nip
Loose Member '09 & '10 Great Lakes Regional Points Champion
Region: Cincinnati Great Lakes
Car #: 60
Year : 1990 Posts: 1487
Status: Offline
posted
It was unfortunate that after all the vaulted talk about the training by Topeka, that the Whistler operator was less than adequately versed. He was BTW a nice guy and I was empathetic for his embarrasment over not being able to test us on Saturday ... BUT SCCA should waive Mark's DQ and move on. It's the right thing to do. Rick
-------------------- Fortune Cookie Racing SM 60 Directions for use: Race, Rumple, Repair ... Repeat!
Region: OVR
Car #: 88
Year : 1991 Posts: 2401
Status: Offline
posted
I can't really comment on the compliance team, I only had to open my hood and produce a factory shop manual.
I don't much like the R888s, at least not the extra chunky variety (+4/32"). Felt like drifting every corner.
I would like to give a shout out to the Great Lakes workers who, as always, did a phenomenal job cleaning up our messes and keeping the event moving on. You guys and gals are the BEST!
The Muscle Milk Trans Am race was fun to watch too. Felt like the old days, setting in the esses on a sunny afternoon with my baby watching the race.
Oh, and I had a wheel/tire that departed from a T2 Camaro roll across the track right in front of me - that was different.
Region: Florida - 11
Car #: 14
Year : 92 Posts: 68
Status: Offline
posted
Off topic I know, but although I couldn't make it to MO, my brother-in-law managed to salvage what started out as a warm, brown, and mushy weekend by moving from 16th to 5th in the Trans Am race and picking up the Hard Charger award. Props to the Rocketsports guys who made it possible - http://www.rocketsportsracing.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=584&Itemid=120
Next up is Watkins Glen; was hoping to drag my SM along, but work commitments are gonna limit my attendance to fly-in/fly-out if that... hhmmmm.... maybe I can find a rental!?
-------------------- The best way to make a small fortune in racing is to start out with a big one.
Hi guys, update I work as a part time crewchief for a Nascar Camping World truck. The #57 severely underfunded team, long story, anyway. I took care of the truck at Michigan a couple weeks ago. I was cutting thru the Cup garage to get to Goodyear guys and stopped to watch the 24 team change a motor outside their garage (spit a drysump belt off, whoops). They were just finishing as Greg Mankowski rolled his Whistler up to check the new motor. Greg is the chief of engine tech for cup. I stop to talk to him about Nascars official position on the Whistler. Half hour conversation with these key points. 1. ONLY cold as they feel the temp compensation is not accurate. 2. Some motors do NOT whistle accurate. The last version of the Toyota motor consistently whistles high and they have been torn down and checked. Found to be legal, so it is considered legal while blowing a high number. Suspected to be chamber shape. 3. It is used as a guideline only, teardown is the next step. NOT used to DQ only EVER! 4. If a motor gets fogged before being shipped to the team aka a Hendrick rental, It will whistle high until run and cleaned out. They will be back to recheck the next morning! 5. DO NOT MESS with tires, safety items, fuel or motor size or compression! WE will increase the fine every infraction by any team. We are at $200,000 now. Make our day!
SCCA needs to speak with Nascar on the correct use of the Whistler. Jim
Region: mid south
Car #: 2
Year : 1999 Posts: 4275
Status: Offline
posted
A little birdy told me Mr. Bennett won his appeal. While I think most all involved wished it hadn't happened at all. I was glad to see the SCCA heard his appeal and that he won. Congratulations on the win on the track and in your appeal! Jim
Region: OVR
Car #: 08
Year : 95 Posts: 644
Status: Offline
posted
quote:Originally posted by Drago: A little birdy told me Mr. Bennett won his appeal. While I think most all involved wished it hadn't happened at all. I was glad to see the SCCA heard his appeal and that he won. Congratulations on the win on the track and in your appeal! Jim
As Regional Executive of Ohio Valley Region I want to say how glad I am that this has ended the way it did on the track. We as host region had nothing to do with the issue which brought about the original DQ. This was strictly a SM Compliance issue. I was thoroughly disgusted by the process and hope that if it happens again at one of our races that its handled better. As an SM racer myself it was pure crap to see how things were handled. While my car is legal I did not run that weekend as if my car was taken apart it would stay that way until I paid someone to put it together. Thats not for me.
Region: Detroit
Car #: 5
Year : 1991 Posts: 1029
Status: Offline
posted
Glad to hear that Mark won this appeal !!
I was spectating at that race and was helping a friend push an S2 into impound. Mark was still there dealing with that fiasco and so I on only talked to him very briefly. He was very upset.
Mark's a class act and has never turned me down when I asked for advice. He deserved better treatment from the officials.
In any event, I'm really happy it worked out the way it should have.
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