Spec Miata Community   
search | help | calendar | games | forum home

  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» Hello Spec Miata Community » SpecMiata.com » Spec Miata Setup Guide » Changes for the rain

 - Email this page to someone! | Subscribe To Topic  
Author Topic: Changes for the rain
DaveC Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
...

Region: Milwaukee/Midwestern Council
Car #: 23
Year : 1999
Posts: 480
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for DaveC     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

So far we have been looking at situations in relatively good (i.e. dry) weather, but what setup changes do you make for running in the rain?

--------------------
Dave Cox

John the Impaler Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
Member

Region: Finger Lakes
Posts: 550
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for John the Impaler     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

Turn on windshield wipers.

Jon Hummer Verified Driver Made Donation to Website Series Champ
http://www.usaturf.com

Region: Susq. Pa.
Car #: #2 SM "The Deuce" #10 SSM "The Dime"
Year : 1991 / 1992
Posts: 994
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for Jon Hummer     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

Dave, Here's a start: 5/32 Toyos or full tread slightly scrubbed, take all 4 shocks Up 1 turn, Disconnect swaybar links. Cheers. ,Hum

PS. Drive in the marbles, and keep your hands ready! [Wink]

--------------------
Jon Hummer
#2 NESCCA/MARRS
http://www.RPPerformanceracing.com

"Lead, Follow, or Get outta the way!"

Kim Ouye Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
Retired Racer

Region: SFR
Car #: 82/73
Year : 1991
Posts: 2015
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for Kim Ouye     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

Lower tire pressures...a lot lower...

--------------------
Kim

91 BRG SMT RIP
06 MX-5 Cup

"Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting 'Holy sh*t...what a ride!'" - Unknown

Casey Z Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
MegaModerator

Region: MidDiv
Car #: 13
Year : 92
Posts: 2873
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for Casey Z     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

My rain rules:

Kind of raining, cars are throwing rooster tails but it is not coming down hard. Disconnect rear sway, go to rains.

Wow, it is raining cats and dogs. Disconnect both sways and go to rains.

Anything short of this is a crap shoot and you need a huge stack of tires to choose from to make the right choice.

--------------------
----------------
Z Brothers Racing / East Street Auto

Casey Z - 1.6 Kettle
MidDiv National #13

Steve Scheifler Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
Veteran Member

Region: STL
Car #: 82
Year : 1991
Posts: 2136
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for Steve Scheifler     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

As stated above but raise car at least four turns per corner to reduce camber then reset front toe.

I'm interested in more opinions/specifics on tire pressures.

Kyle Keenan Verified Driver
Pass right

Region: OR, NWR
Car #: 44
SMIM: AIM: KKRProducts
Posts: 344
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for Kyle Keenan   Author's Homepage     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

Honestly, the only thing i really change is the rear sway bar to full soft. Ride Height stays the same, all that. We run rains with very minimal heat cycles, and it works well for us(Same pressures as the "dry" tires). We also add tape to the radiator to keep the heat up.

--------------------
Driver, #44 Spec Miata
ColdTrackDays.com

Dusty Bottoms Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
99 all the way!

Region: Lone Star
Year : 1990
Posts: 4253
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for Dusty Bottoms     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

quote:
Originally posted by Steve Scheifler:
As stated above but raise car at least four turns per corner to reduce camber then reset front toe.

I'm interested in more opinions/specifics on tire pressures.

ditto on both statements above...unless I'm at MSRH, no garage, and I'm paddocked on top of what used to be a creek and I don't feel like creeping under the car and drowning so I just run it as is.

--------------------
"Your victory is tainted! Asterisk! Asterisk!!!"--Lisa Simpson

volante Verified Driver
Member

Region: Mid-Div
Car #: 43
Year : 1995
Posts: 605
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for volante     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

I am sure there will be some who have there opinion but here is my take on tire pressures in the rain.All tires will differ but I have been told by the "tire guys" go low.The thought is the tires will not get up to dry temps or normal dry adhesion.So you are softening up the shocks,swaybars,etc. so you want to do the same to the tires.Lower pressures mean more movement to the tires.Why soften everything else up and make tires harder trying to get to 40 lbs.Stay low.Of course I am talking about real race tires and not Toyos.

Dave v

--------------------
volante

wheel Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
Member

Region: kc
Car #: 20
Year : 92
Posts: 1801
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for wheel     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

Generally, rain is like dirt, you want to get some body roll to get the tire down through the water to the track. That is why raising the car and disconnecting the bars is probably the way to go. Also, you need to change your line on most tracks. Usually the normal line is the worse place to be in the rain. Tracks patched with concrete also have different characteristics when they are wet.
Like Dennis Miller says, "that's just my opinion, I could be wrong."
wheel

Charlie Williams Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
Member

Region: Philadelphia
Car #: SSM 4
Year : 90, 93
Posts: 67
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for Charlie Williams     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

For best grip from your rain tires for heavy rain days:
DO NOT EVER HEAT CYCLE YOUR RAIN TIRES!
The grip will never be as good again. If you do, you might as well shave them and run dry tracks or save them and use them for those "rooster tail" days when the track is not heavily coated or is partially drying.

Grip comes from the tire material conforming to the minute surface structure. Heat cycled tires get a little stiffer on the surface when cold, and do not conform as well, especially if there is a water layer. The rubber will trap water that it cannot squeeze out of the minute contures of the surface, giving you less tire contact with the surface - leading to less grip - just when you need it the most.

--------------------
CW
MARRS SSM 4

jigou Verified Driver
Veteran Member

Region: Des Moines Valley
Car #: 59
Year : 1991
Posts: 1910
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for jigou     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

quote:
Originally posted by Charlie Williams:
For best grip from your rain tires for heavy rain days:
DO NOT EVER HEAT CYCLE YOUR RAIN TIRES!
The grip will never be as good again. If you do, you might as well shave them and run dry tracks or save them and use them for those "rooster tail" days when the track is not heavily coated or is partially drying.

Grip comes from the tire material conforming to the minute surface structure. Heat cycled tires get a little stiffer on the surface when cold, and do not conform as well, especially if there is a water layer. The rubber will trap water that it cannot squeeze out of the minute contures of the surface, giving you less tire contact with the surface - leading to less grip - just when you need it the most.

But you MUST (as in don't even think about not doing it) scrub the mold release off of fresh Toyos. Or not, if you're racing against me. [Big Grin]

Jarrod

--------------------
http://www.plainoldgas.com

Steve D. Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
Once you get past the gag reflex, the jelly ain't bad!

Region: Atlanta
Car #: 30
Year : 1999
Posts: 652
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for Steve D.     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

If you have a bypassed heater core... [banghead]

...tuck a squeegee next to your seat.

Steve D.

Steve Johnson Verified Driver
Member

Region: KC Region
Car #: 41
Year : 91
Posts: 576
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for Steve Johnson     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

Jarrod-get to work.

--------------------
Stephen Johnson
#41 Mid-Div

Jason Holland Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
Mediocrity rules!

Region: SouthEast
Car #: 28
Year : 95
Posts: 3756
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for Jason Holland   Author's Homepage     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

Is there a way to get the mold release off the tires besides scrubbing them in? Steel wool? Chemicals?

--------------------
Jason Holland
Semi-interested civilian

Steven Holloway Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
Blue Eyes, Aquarius, hates being squeezed to the grass in SowDiv!

Region: Lonestar
Car #: 97
Year : 91
Posts: 740
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for Steven Holloway     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

A stiff brush and Simple Green? [Confused]
Somebody try it and let us know.
S(till haven't bought a set of rains)

--------------------
If you can't fix it with a hammer, it's got electrical problems.

TKraft Verified Driver
Member

Region: DMV /GtRv
Car #: 42&46
Year : 91,95,99
Posts: 287
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for TKraft     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

Johnson quit screwing off.

Casey Z Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
MegaModerator

Region: MidDiv
Car #: 13
Year : 92
Posts: 2873
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for Casey Z     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

quote:
Originally posted by jigou:
But you MUST (as in don't even think about not doing it) scrub the mold release off of fresh Toyos. Or not, if you're racing against me. [Big Grin]

I have heard and agree with this theory as it makes good sense. That said I bought a set of rains at TMS last year and ran them the next day in the rain with no scrubbing and they felt great. TMS also has TONS of grip in the wet. The same rains at Hallett after the scrub are pretty entertaining. Depending on the track I think this can vary a lot. JMHO...

--------------------
----------------
Z Brothers Racing / East Street Auto

Casey Z - 1.6 Kettle
MidDiv National #13

Jim Daniels
Guest


Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted    Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

I keep reading responses in this forum and find I have nothing to add, you guys are on top of it!

PM my if you have a specific questions and I will keep reading to see if I have anything to add!

As always, test test test and never let it remain the same, setup that is!

GW
Member

Posts: 56
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for GW     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

what about adding spacers - front only? all around or not at all?
Thanks,
Grant

Casey Z Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
MegaModerator

Region: MidDiv
Car #: 13
Year : 92
Posts: 2873
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for Casey Z     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

quote:
Originally posted by GW:
what about adding spacers - front only? all around or not at all?

Grant,

If you normally run spacers, keep them on. I mentioned our rain rules above. The sways make a huge difference, but you have to gauge the conditions as far as front and rear. One thing that was mentioned but no one gave a number on is tire pressures. On the RA1 I usually go out at 27PSI if it is really wet. I think that works pretty well. Whatever you do, don't go out at a high PSI when wet. I followed that advice once and it was somewhere between a cartoon and insane.

The wet is fun, I like it. Just make sure you get someone to teach you the rain line. Find grip where you can and enjoy.

--------------------
----------------
Z Brothers Racing / East Street Auto

Casey Z - 1.6 Kettle
MidDiv National #13

GW
Member

Posts: 56
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for GW     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

thanks very much Casey for the quick reply. I dont normally run spacers but wondered if at least wideing the front a bit helps with front grip? what is your thought on how much if any to raise the car?
thanks again,
Grant

Casey Z Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
MegaModerator

Region: MidDiv
Car #: 13
Year : 92
Posts: 2873
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for Casey Z     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

I don't think raising the car will be needed with the new shock hats at a reasonable ride height. Haven't run them in the rain yet, so that is speculation, but I think it is reasonable. Anyone else have a comment on that one?

--------------------
----------------
Z Brothers Racing / East Street Auto

Casey Z - 1.6 Kettle
MidDiv National #13

DaveC Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
...

Region: Milwaukee/Midwestern Council
Car #: 23
Year : 1999
Posts: 480
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for DaveC     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

I agree with Casey for the most part.

The reason I raise the car was to make sure that I did not get the abrupt change from hitting the stops with the reduced grip.

The only caveat, on not raising the car, would be if you are still running the car close to the stops in the dry you will get more roll with the sway bars removed and the car still should be raised to avoid that.

My biggest problem (coming from a Formula Continental background) is find how to get more wing in the car [boggled] .

--------------------
Dave Cox

d mathias Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
Member

Region: OVR
Car #: 88
Year : 1991
Posts: 2401
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for d mathias     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

Make coffee tables out of your full tread Toyos and put on real rain tires.

Colin MacLean Verified Driver
Fly Fifer

Region: Atlanta
Posts: 845
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for Colin MacLean     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

Don't get caught up with "setup changes" in the rain. The only things that matter in the rain are the driver and what tires he's running. Seriously.

--------------------
Colin MacLean
Flyin' MacLean Motorsports

Casey Z Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
MegaModerator

Region: MidDiv
Car #: 13
Year : 92
Posts: 2873
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for Casey Z     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

A little birdy reminded me raising it will decrease camber which can be a good thing in the rain. I haven't tried that yet, but others are recommending it.

Something new to try the next time it rains...

--------------------
----------------
Z Brothers Racing / East Street Auto

Casey Z - 1.6 Kettle
MidDiv National #13

guest driver
Member

Region: 011
Car #: 47
Year : 94
Posts: 488
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for guest driver     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

quote:
Originally posted by Colin MacLean:
Don't get caught up with "setup changes" in the rain. The only things that matter in the rain are the driver and what tires he's running. Seriously.

[yep] finally, sage advice.
we are racing 'SM', not 'FM' (formula mazda).
for 98.5% of us, including me, we are wasting our time with set up changes for wet conditions.
Wet track conditions offer too many variables to start chasing setups. What if it stops raining and the line drys out in 5 laps ?
jacked up ride heights, disconnected bars, running spacers, decreasing camber, etc. all sound good but really won't make any difference to your overall race performance in the wet.
Slap on the set of tires you have with the most tread, lower the pressures a bit and go out and have fun.
Here's the best advice I ever got; still remember my mom yelling at me ... " DON'T PLAY IN THE PUDDLES" !!
look ahead and stay out of the puddles ... and if it's raining really hard, time to bring it on in and crack open a Bud [tipsy]
be safe,
Carlos G.

Colin MacLean Verified Driver
Fly Fifer

Region: Atlanta
Posts: 845
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for Colin MacLean     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

quote:
Originally posted by Casey Z:
A little birdy reminded me raising it will decrease camber which can be a good thing in the rain. I haven't tried that yet, but others are recommending it.

Something new to try the next time it rains...

Don't do it without adjusting toe also! Raising the car toes it out right? Baaaaaad in the rain. See why I suggest not changing anything [Wink]

--------------------
Colin MacLean
Flyin' MacLean Motorsports

Casey Z Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
MegaModerator

Region: MidDiv
Car #: 13
Year : 92
Posts: 2873
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for Casey Z     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

Good point Colin. I like racing in the rain, it can be fun. The sways are easy to disconnect and will make a big difference in handling. As someone mentioned above, the trick is making sure you don't potentially screw up your setup if it goes dry. Radar on your mobile phone is very helpful for this. We had something like 3 or 4 rain races last year and it was a blast!

--------------------
----------------
Z Brothers Racing / East Street Auto

Casey Z - 1.6 Kettle
MidDiv National #13

Cajun Miata Man Verified Driver
Overdog Driver

Region: Houston; SWDIV
Car #: 15
Year : 99
Posts: 680
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for Cajun Miata Man     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

You can raise the car to reduce the camber and get a bit more suspension travel. You only need to adjust the front toe. If you run through this as a trial, you'll know how many turns on the tie-rods w/o breaking out the strings.

I'll only do a height change if I am confident it will remain raining. Like Casey said, access to internet radar is helpful.

--------------------
James York


sponsored by:
Stan's Auto Center, Lafayette LA
powered by:
East Street Racing, Memphis TN
set up guru:
Gilfus Racing, Austin TX

GW
Member

Posts: 56
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for GW     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

thanks for all the suggestions, much appreciated! regarding adjusting the front toe if you raise the car - which way are you adjusting it?

Casey Z Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
MegaModerator

Region: MidDiv
Car #: 13
Year : 92
Posts: 2873
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for Casey Z     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

Car goes up toe goes out. You would want to adjust it in. Try the sways first before raising the car. JMHO

BTW, when we talk about adjusting the car for rain, it means it is really raining. Not a sprinkle or a damp track. If it is really raining we make the above stated changes. If it is a sprinkle or just damp we leave it alone. We also leave the dries on.

--------------------
----------------
Z Brothers Racing / East Street Auto

Casey Z - 1.6 Kettle
MidDiv National #13

GW
Member

Posts: 56
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for GW     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

however much you raise it, is the goal to keep the toe at zero?

Cajun Miata Man Verified Driver
Overdog Driver

Region: Houston; SWDIV
Car #: 15
Year : 99
Posts: 680
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for Cajun Miata Man     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

That depends on your set up preference and track you are running. I don't want to sound unclear, but it could be zero or toe-out. Maybe you should shoot to keep it the same as before you raised the car.

--------------------
James York


sponsored by:
Stan's Auto Center, Lafayette LA
powered by:
East Street Racing, Memphis TN
set up guru:
Gilfus Racing, Austin TX

Casey Z Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
MegaModerator

Region: MidDiv
Car #: 13
Year : 92
Posts: 2873
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for Casey Z     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

quote:
Originally posted by GW:
however much you raise it, is the goal to keep the toe at zero?

As mentioned above, it depends. More toe in the rain is not a great idea. The car will be darty with more toe. Depending on the track I like a little toe out in the dry as it helps me turn in. In the wet it can make it really exciting.

Lots of opinions on this, but the best thing is to get a test day where it rains like crazy all day. It seems like a bust, but you learn a bunch.

--------------------
----------------
Z Brothers Racing / East Street Auto

Casey Z - 1.6 Kettle
MidDiv National #13

GW
Member

Posts: 56
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for GW     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

Good advice, will do. thanks again everybody for all the good tips.
Grant

   

   Close Topic   Feature Topic   Move Topic   Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic | Subscribe To Topic
Hop To: