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Author Topic: Proposed Clutch rule
Jason Holland Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
Mediocrity rules!

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Or we could keep the car we already have, and try to get back to what we thought this class was when we built our cars a couple years ago.


There would still be plenty of tinkering if we leveled the playing field more. It's just that the difference would be less.

Jason

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Jason Holland
Semi-interested civilian

Jason Holland Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
Mediocrity rules!

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Mark,

I haven't used stock but I've heard it holds up pretty well as long as you use the 4 puck disc. However I think Tim has said there were some issues in SS with the stock stuff.

That being said, I used the ACT PP (it weighs the exact same as stock) and the 4 puck. More clamping force with the same weight. Seems right.

The ACT is unfortunately alot more expensive than the stock pp

Jason

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Jason Holland
Semi-interested civilian

TimBuck Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
I'll believe it when I believe it.

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The 1.6 has been ok with the stock PP. The 1.8 will typically not las as long. YMMV

--------------------
Tim Buck

MAZDASPEED Motorsports Development
Mazda North American Operations
phone (800) 435-2508
fax (949) 222-2650

zoom-zoom!

Drago Verified Driver Made Donation to Website Series Champ
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I used stock my entire first year of missed shufts and locked up rear wheels on the downshift and it finally let go at the arrc. But it was really abused. I will be going stock, with a different disc
Jim

--------------------
Jim Drago
East Street Auto Salvage
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2006-2007 Mid-West Division
07,09 June Sprints Champion

EAST STREET RACING

pat slattery Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Jason wern't you the guy that was just trying to find some cams that were ground to specs?

Pat

--------------------
keeping the faith for the 1.6

Arrow Karts

Jason Holland Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Yep. What's your point?

--------------------
Jason Holland
Semi-interested civilian

Stan Clayton
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quote:
Originally posted by Pat Newton:
I sent in my letter requesting just that a few months ago (brand agnostic, just spec "something" please), then was told by an insider that the SMAC/CRB were "leaning away" from spec'ing those items. Guess we'll need more letters! [Wink]

I can't speak for the SMAC, but the CRB is leaning towards more spec and less ambiguity. Write again now that the Runoffs are behind us if you want spec intake and exhaust, for instance. Stan

--------------------
Stan Clayton

Jim Boemler Verified Driver
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quote:
Originally posted by Mark de Regt:
Ok, assuming (as seems likely) that this is a fait accompli, which is the better choice--ACT or OEM?

I've used both. ACT is better, but not by a lot. If you're replacing, replace with ACT. I wouldn't bother replacing a working stock clutch with it, though.

jim

--------------------
Just a clown

Little Bill Verified Driver
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There is plenty of tinkering that can be done without developing parts. Getting the car to roll freely and handle is paramount in this class. How often do you align your car, or go through the hubs? how about corner weighting and little tweaks at the track? There is a ton of room to make the little tweaks that make a car faster without spending the huge dollars on a pro engine or high dollar clutch or on any of the other flavor of the month parts.

I think spending any money on an engine over what it takes to do a basic rebuild, or to get a crate from mazda is outside the intent of the rules and outside of what truely made SM the huge draw that it is. That being said I would pony up the money for a sealed engine. I don't care about the guy that buys ten to get the peach that makes an extra horse and a half and 2 ft pounds. That slight advantage won't make a difference. Pro engines do make a difference, as do the high dollar clutches. Anything we can do to get them out of the mix will help the class in the long run.

The argument that it won't change the front of the field doesn't count here either. Your right, it won't change the front of the field, but it will make profound changes throughout the rest of the field. It will also let the rest of the field believe that they can get to the front if they drive better.

The guy that brings up the back of the pack won't be able to say, "well, if I had a (insert pro engine of choice here), and an RE cluch and the (insert intake of choice here) and the (insert exhaust of choice here) I could have been on the podium".

Tighten the rules its good for the class. As far as dive bomb passes and other undesireable driving practices, the already exsist in this class, but a good driver knows how to take advantage of the low exit speed that the car that just made the late brake dive bomb move is now having to deal with.

This class is not about buying performance. It's about driving, about outdriving the guy that qualified next to you. The sooner SM gets back to that basic concept the better off we will all be for it.

--------------------
Bill Hingston
SM#03
RM_Div

TimBuck Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Bill- You are confusing "car prep" with "tinkering".

Personally, I align, corner weight, and adjust heights (among other things) for every single event, with different setups for different tracks and conditions. And I am certainly not above making running changes at events either. My strings (from Iron Canyon, an awesome setup tool) and scales (borrowed from work) go with me. PLEASE don't try to lecture me about prep.

Tinkering is something that is entirely different. It's looking outside the box for changes in "hardware" that someone may not have thought of before. It may not even offer a competitive advantage. It may just be something cool and different than the guy paddocked next to me. Come spend some time with my car and you'll see what I mean.

I LIKE playing around. I LIKE thinking of new things to do with/to my car. That said, I DON"T want to run IT. I am not in any way interested in 4 way adjustable shocks and a Motec stuffed inside my ECU case for a Regional Only class. I like the idea of a National Champion in my class (Congratulations Andrew!!!). I have thought numerous times on building an FP, but then with whom would I race? Same with Formula Mazda. Nope. This is the class for me.

So, what direction does the class go? Status quo or more "spec"? As long as there is room for me to play around (and there will be), I'll go along with the wants of the masses.

Clutches? I like my particular clutch choice. It's relatively inexpensive, reliable, and just "trick" enough to satisfy my inner tinkerer.

Would I buy an RE clutch? At my level of driving skill, probably not. It's obviously a great "outside the box" but within-the-rules innovation. But for me it's a matter of diminishing returns. My $ at this point are better spent on track time and data acq. Both items proven to make better DRIVERS (huh, imagine that... working on my driving and not improving my car!). Were I continuously at the pointy end of the grid, then I absolutely would have one behind my RE engine (heck, probably a carbon one!).

Would I be happy in a $7500 basic Spec Miata? Sure. But it probably wouldn't stay that way for long...

Is there such a thing as "class philosophy"? I don't think so. There is no intent. The rules package is what I consider a legal document. The words are there, in black and white to be read, interpreted, and exploited at every point. That, as far as I'm concerned is part of racing. Racing certainly does NOT start at the green flag and stop at the checker. If you think so, you are naive.

I will NOT cheat. I have no desire to. But I will creatively interpret and innovate. When one hole is closed, it invariably opens another. Sometimes more rules (and consequently, more SPEC) means more room for interpretation and innovation.

Where am I going with this? Be careful what you ask for. Be certain of the wording of ANY "limiting rule" that you may endorse.

And for goodness sakes have some fun dammit! Isn't that why we do this???

And Bill- the tracks where a dive bomb pass will allow a "pass back" by the victim are few and far between. Especially in a momentum car like ours.

Love

--------------------
Tim Buck

MAZDASPEED Motorsports Development
Mazda North American Operations
phone (800) 435-2508
fax (949) 222-2650

zoom-zoom!

Steve Scheifler Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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I really wish JD would stop hijacking other ID's. [Wink]

Pat Newton Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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quote:
Originally posted by Stan Clayton:
I can't speak for the SMAC, but the CRB is leaning towards more spec and less ambiguity. Write again now that the Runoffs are behind us if you want spec intake and exhaust, for instance. Stan

Will do Stan, thanks!

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Crew Chief, 3D Racing #64, aka Team Scrappy 2.0
3rd place E2, 2009 25 Hours of Thunderhill

Crew Chief, EGR/Miller Motorsports #64, aka Team Scrappy
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Little Bill Verified Driver
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Tim,

I thought you knew me better than that. There was no intent to lecture just a question posed. We obviously have different definitions of tinkering. I consider tinkering all the little things that you do between events including preventative maintenance and prep work. You consider it anything that is not considered classic car prep. Have some fun? Every time im in the car, Im having fun, and working on racecraft.

More restrictive rules mean more innovation? Okay, if you say so. Not writing complete rules here but… must run stock unmodified intake system, must run exhaust provided by X company, no modifications allowed, must run clutch X, no modifications allowed, must run sealed engine provided by company X, no modifications allowed.

To me, SM is about driving, maybe Im one of the few that see it that way. I understand that success on the track starts in the shop. I also know that there are any number of classes that allow all the open development and huge dollars spent a person could want. Just because 99.9 % of the classes in racing allow for open minded development doesn’t mean that SM should. I for one believe that the more restrictive the better for SM. Please, no one tell me to go drive SS. SS is the ultimate in flavor of the year. SSB is a perfect example, last year the Z4 this year the Solstice, next year who knows what.

“ The Spec Miata (SM) class is intended to provide the opportunity to compete in low cost, production-based cars with limited modifications, suitable for racing competition. The rules are intentionally designed to be more open than the Showroom Stock class but more restricted than the Improved Touring class”.

Low cost, yep the current clutch rule certainly provides for that, $ 7500 pro engines, compared to some classes, sure that’s low cost, but when a brand new crate can be had for 2 grand, 7500 isn’t low cost. Flavor of the month intake and exhaust, if one exhaust and one intake were the only options we wouldn’t have to spend money on dyno time to figure out if they really did improve performance.

I run a 1.6 old bottom fresh head, new fuel pump and coil pack, act 4 puck, Springfield exhaust, straight shot intake, dyno time to set optimum ignition timing, didn’t touch the AFM. I want a class that rewards money spent on track time not a class that rewards me for spending a small fortune on development.

“And Bill- the tracks where a dive bomb pass will allow a "pass back" by the victim are few and far between. Especially in a momentum car like ours”. We can just agree to disagree on this point.

Enjoy the rest of the weekend.

--------------------
Bill Hingston
SM#03
RM_Div

Drago Verified Driver Made Donation to Website Series Champ
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Tim(JD?) [Big Grin]
Great post, I was about to respond, but find myself losing the desire anymore. But I agree with all you said there.

Bill
You have "the exhaust and intake" of the month right now? But I think they have been the "it pieces" for 2 years or so? While there are others there, none have proven to be any better, similiar, but not better.
Even with sealed and spec everything as you described, you would still be at a disadvantage if you chose not to adjust the afm? So do we spec and seal every part on the entire car?

--------------------
Jim Drago
East Street Auto Salvage
jdrago1@aol.com
2006-2007 Mid-West Division
07,09 June Sprints Champion

EAST STREET RACING

Jason Holland Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
Mediocrity rules!

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The AFM's should not be adjustable. That was a mistake imho.

--------------------
Jason Holland
Semi-interested civilian

Pat Newton Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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quote:
Originally posted by Chump:
The AFM's should not be adjustable. That was a mistake imho.

Speaking as someone whose AFM has never been apart, I have to disagree.

First, dialing in your AFM is easy and cheap- a half hour of dyno time with air/fuel numbers is what, $100? Second, getting the mixture right is good for longevity/reliability as well as horsepower.

--------------------
Crew Chief, 3D Racing #64, aka Team Scrappy 2.0
3rd place E2, 2009 25 Hours of Thunderhill

Crew Chief, EGR/Miller Motorsports #64, aka Team Scrappy
E2 Champions, 2008 25 Hours of Thunderhill

Brian Towey Verified Driver
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For all the posts about things that we can spend money on to make our cars "better", the only one who has mentioned what I believe is the most important item is Tim B. And, as Boemler knows I am almost always right nearly 99% of the time...

Anybody who is whining about stuff like clutches and isn't scaling and aligning the car (for example) before every event really needs to re-evaluate the way they think about these things. There is a long list of other stuff that is more important than having the clutch, too. Like why would you spend $1,100 on a clutch if you didn't already have an unlimited tire budget? And cams - are you joking?

Don't get me wrong - I run the ACT (always have as it's the first clutch I bought 4 years ago). Oh, the humanity!!! - I've had to buy buy one clutch - ever. The car goes just fine.

Point is there are bunches of other things to spend money on that will actually make you or the car faster.

Maybe it would be productive to know which "go fast" items everybody has at the top of their lists...? Then maybe a discussion about the most economical way to accomplish them. One of the true advantages of a class like this is that you don't have to do the R&D if you don't want to - it's being done and we can buy it for a fraction of what it's worth.

BT

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Brian Towey
Oregon Region #26
http://meettheroad.wordpress.com/

TimBuck Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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As posted on CalClub's forum (pay special attention to my point about Clement Lee):

QUOTE(DARYL B @ Oct 23 2006, 06:33 PM) *

"'Didnt you hear? theres a new $1800 diff for this year to go with your $1100 clutch. lol, sorry. They grow the class, make it national, then price you out. Its the SCCA way.'


Wow Daryl- people complain for years about the "fragile" 1.6 diffs, so SCCA allows them to use the 1.8 diffs. How is that bad? It's certainly not required. Continue to run a 1.6 diff for as long as you want. If/when it does break, you now have a choice as to how to repair it. AND you should be able to buy a complete "conversion" for $500-$800 if you shop used and wisely.

AND (again) SCCA just took away the $1100 clutch option (along with my $500 aluminum one) for next season. Doubtless people will complain about too.

Both these new rules are to make the class less expensive and more reliable. Both rules also came from the general membership. It actually shows that our chosen sanctioning body's rules process really does work.

The great thing about SM is that you can have fun and compete using as much or as little money as you want (no matter what you may think or have heard). Ask Clement about that sometime! That man is always fast in a "crate motor" car. He even took it to the Runoffs! He should be the poster guy for Spec Miata!


"They" didn't grow SM. We, the SM racers did. And I can tell you that it hasn't slowed one bit...

Tim Buck"


Go fast items are fun, cool, and certainly add bling. But are the needed to have fun? Nope. Bill H has plenty of fun running his car. As do I. My fun also extends to the garage. Not everyone's does. Accept it.

Are they needed to run up front? Not always. However, the perception is that they are. Maybe it's time for me to put together a basic 1.6 car to see. It would be an interesting exercise to see if a low dollar car, some driving instruction, and data can make a winner.

[scratchchin]

What would a "lobudge" car cost? $10k? $7.5k? Anyone?

--------------------
Tim Buck

MAZDASPEED Motorsports Development
Mazda North American Operations
phone (800) 435-2508
fax (949) 222-2650

zoom-zoom!

Jon Pressman Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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quote:
Originally posted by TimBuck:


Are they needed to run up front? Not always. However, the perception is that they are. Maybe it's time for me to put together a basic 1.6 car to see. It would be an interesting exercise to see if a low dollar car, some driving instruction, and data can make a winner.

[scratchchin]

What would a "lobudge" car cost? $10k? $7.5k? Anyone?

That is a great idea! I would love to put the $30k+ guys in $10k cars and see where they finish.

It is possible for a sub $10k car to run up front (top 5-10), but winning is another story. A great driver in a 10k car will not beat a good driver or even an average driver in a 30k car. just the way it is.

It took my entire first season to get the car up to $10k. I would say that is a low budget car.

...And my oem clutch as it came off the street ran fine all season.

[Smile] [Smile]

--------------------
SSM #87 MARRS
--2007 ARRC SSM Champion--

Windsorcustoms.com

John Wymore
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I just built my car this last spring with the lighter BSI style clutch. It works great and didn't cost all that much compared to an ACT. I have six races on it and now I need to change to stock or ACT?? This change will just cost me more money and possibly reduce reliability. Obviously that's not good ....

I agree with Brian T. ... we are witch hunting stuff that doesn't make a big difference.

Jim Boemler Verified Driver
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If it doesn't make a difference, why'd you buy it? [Wink]

jim

--------------------
Just a clown

Jim Boemler Verified Driver
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I only ignore people who own genies named Bob.

jim

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Just a clown

B Wilson Verified Driver Series Champ
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quote:
Originally posted by Jonathan Pressman:
quote:
Originally posted by TimBuck:


Are they needed to run up front? Not always. However, the perception is that they are. Maybe it's time for me to put together a basic 1.6 car to see. It would be an interesting exercise to see if a low dollar car, some driving instruction, and data can make a winner.

[scratchchin]

What would a "lobudge" car cost? $10k? $7.5k? Anyone?

That is a great idea! I would love to put the $30k+ guys in $10k cars and see where they finish.

It is possible for a sub $10k car to run up front (top 5-10), but winning is another story. A great driver in a 10k car will not beat a good driver or even an average driver in a 30k car. just the way it is.

I think it would be more interesting to take a front runner, put them in a $30k car without any dyno time (or just set to 14 degrees advance), and aligned at a GoodYear tire center (no corner weighting). Then put them in a $10k car with good compression, a little dyno time, and proper chassis setup. I bet the $10k car would have better lap times.

BTW, Brian Towey wins races with a backyard built motor.

So maybe we should just spec suspension settings, tire pressures, and timing [nope]

-Bruce

--------------------
Bruce Wilson
2010 Oregon Region Champ
2010 Monte Shelton Driver of the Year
2010 25 Hours of Thunderhill E3 and Under 2 liter Overall Champion
Oregon Region SM Class Advisor

Jim Boemler Verified Driver
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Cut to the chase, Bruce -- spec the driver. [Wink]

jim

--------------------
Just a clown

Dusty Bottoms Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
99 all the way!

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What ever happened with JD driving that sub-par SRF? [Smile]

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"Your victory is tainted! Asterisk! Asterisk!!!"--Lisa Simpson

Jeremy Lucas
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quote:
Originally posted by TimBuck:
It would be an interesting exercise to see if a low dollar car, some driving instruction, and data can make a winner.

Ok, twist my arm. I'll do it, just tell me where to pick up the car. [Big Grin]

--------------------
Jeremy Lucas
Fast Tech Limited.com

Jason Holland Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
Mediocrity rules!

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Tim,

I think a good budget car build would cost somewhere around 11-14k for a 1.8. That's from using my parts cost numbers from my build 3 years ago.

That's with a rebuilt engine (spun rod bearing in donor)and no special parts really. Not many new parts either. Suspension etc was reused and I did all the work.

Obviously, you should be able to purchase one for less but if you wanted to do this, I bet you wouldn't want to go that route....

--------------------
Jason Holland
Semi-interested civilian

Jason Holland Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
Mediocrity rules!

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Roses are red
violets are blue
I'm a schizophrenic
and so am I

--------------------
Jason Holland
Semi-interested civilian

Little Bill Verified Driver
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Tim I have about 10k in my 1.6. Includes a comp diff, act clutch, carbon straight shot and springfield exhaust.

FWIW, i didn't adjust the afm because the dyno tech that ran the dyno and produced my sheets told me that my AFM was as good as any that he had adjusted for customers. So based on the 8 sm's he had adjusted previously I left mine alone.

--------------------
Bill Hingston
SM#03
RM_Div

Juan Pineda Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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quote:
Originally posted by Chump:
That being said, I used the ACT PP (it weighs the exact same as stock) and the 4 puck. More clamping force with the same weight. Seems right.

I had read in other threads that the ACT PP was significantly heavier than the stock PP. Which is it?

What disks, if any, works well with the OEM PP?

-Juan

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www.ArtOfRoadRacing.com Race Craft Clinic - Thunderhill - 30 Jan 2011

Jason Holland Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
Mediocrity rules!

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Juan,

I can only think they were using the extreme pp which is more clamping force. It is the stage 3 thingy. I have the one step up from stock (70% or 30% cant remember) more clamping force. It weighs the exact same as the stock part. I can guarantee that.

--------------------
Jason Holland
Semi-interested civilian

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Purpose and Intent
The Spec Miata (SM) class is intended to provide the opportunity to compete in low cost, production-based cars with limited modifications, suitable for racing competition. The rules are intentionally designed to be more open than the Showroom Stock class but more restricted than the Improved Touring class.


What part of this statement don't you understand?These rules were intentionally INTENTIONALLY Designed to allow the modifications we have in our class. This is not SS. We have the largest, most competitive and most compliant class in all of scca. The brain trusts that formed this class obviously knew what they were doing. "Intentionally" to me means they ment for this class to be what it is! My son and I got into this class because we felt it could showcase his talents as a driver and allow me to "build and chassic tune" a better mouse trap. Give the limited number of races we do a year {4 to 6 races} its worked pretty good for us. These rules allow the pro motor builders to do there thing also. I would guess there are more than 750 spec miatas in the country. Yet I read only a hand full of those in this forum complaining and trying to change our class. If you don't like it go to SS. I have read in this forum that spec miata has saved regional racing. Changing or splitting our class will only weaken the strongest class in scca racing. Bob Sr.

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Bob, That's a great argument for something, but I have no clue who it was meant for or what your point was. What statement was made that didn't comprehend the purpose & intent? SPEC(Miata)-ing a PP, or set of PPs, would fit somewhere between SS & IT, exactly as the P&I explains so your post leaves me a bit mystified. Please explain...

Eric

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Bob,

Where should I start? I find it utterly amusing that you are using the intent statement to argue against a rule that will ultimately save people money.

That's classic. I enjoyed the laugh. Thank you. Now on to our regularly scheduled program...

See below...

quote:
Originally posted by Bob Carter:
Purpose and Intent
The Spec Miata (SM) class is intended to provide the opportunity to compete in low cost, production-based cars with limited modifications, suitable for racing competition. The rules are intentionally designed to be more open than the Showroom Stock class but more restricted than the Improved Touring class.


What part of this statement don't you understand?


I think I do understand it.

quote:

These rules were intentionally INTENTIONALLY Designed to allow the modifications we have in our class. This is not SS. We have the largest, most competitive and most compliant class in all of scca. The brain trusts that formed this class obviously knew what they were doing. "Intentionally" to me means they ment for this class to be what it is!


Well, the ruleset is a living document. It has never stopped changing so your assertion that "the brain trusts" set it up this way doesn't hold much water. I think that the original founders came up with a pretty nice ruleset that did not take into account the popularity that ensued. There were plenty of holes left open I bet because people didn't think we'd have to worry about arguing things like 1100 dollar clutches. Fact of the matter is, the rules can be improved to promote competition and reduce cost. If this isn't done the class you like so well will likely diminish in popularity.

While I think of it, let me ask you Bob, what do you think will happen if we spec a clutch rule or spec intakes or outlaw pro motors?

Do you think that people will stop joining the class? Do you think that paying less money and there being better competition will actually turn people off?


quote:
My son and I got into this class because we felt it could showcase his talents as a driver and allow me to "build and chassic tune" a better mouse trap. Give the limited number of races we do a year {4 to 6 races} its worked pretty good for us.
Do you think you would be any less satisfied if you couldn't spend a ton of money on a dyno and unobtanium clutches? Is there not enough tuning available with alignment, setup, prep items? Or do you need to get more involved? If so, I think there are better classes for you. Maybe you should be the one to go to another class as you suggest below.
quote:
These rules allow the pro motor builders to do there thing also.
Well awesome, since I'm sure I read somewhere in the scca charter that it was up to scca membership to provide college educations for the children of engine builders.

If engine builders want to build a better mousetrap, other classes beckon. Oh wait, they are not as plentiful? No money to be made there? Too bad. The reason this class got so popular was not 7k pro motors. It was close competition and low cost. Anyone saying otherwise is being disingenuous at best.

quote:
I would guess there are more than 750 spec miatas in the country. Yet I read only a hand full of those in this forum complaining and trying to change our class.
Well Bob, I'll put a couple polls up tonight and we'll see if the majority wants the status quo or not. Ok?

quote:
If you don't like it go to SS.
No thanks. Not interested. I already have a spec miata.

quote:

I have read in this forum that spec miata has saved regional racing. Changing or splitting our class will only weaken the strongest class in scca racing. Bob Sr.

Or it might save it from becoming formula vee.

Jason

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Hi Bob,

I'm not taking a side for or against your argument because either way, I don't have the energy at the moment. I did note that you decided to cut and paste the current Purpose & Intent. Depending on how the wind blows (more spec, less spec), I did want to bring your attention to the fact that this paragraph could be edited or changed tomorrow. So, I thought I would take this opportunity to provide you with a snapshot from a different period in time. A time that brought a lot of folks into this class. I would be interested in hearing your comments about the following paragraphs. It wasn't that long ago. The rules are omitted for the sake of brevity.

====================================
Spec Miata Specifications

Spec Miata Preparation rules Spec Miata vehicles are showroom stock, as defined by the SCCA GCR with the exception of the following restrictions or specifically allowed modifications. Unless specifically mentioned or approved in these rules, no additional modifications may be made. These rules are not intended as guidelines or suggestions and they will be vigorously enforced.


All Spec Miata competitors are encouraged to join Mazda's Team Support Program. The program enables competitors to purchase Mazda stock and competition parts at discount prices. Call 800-435-2508, email to comppart@mazdausa.com, or fax 949-727-6943 to request an application and further details.
====================================

Don

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I forgot something. Here's that rodeo guy coming around again.

 -

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Eric
My post refers to the numerous posts throughout this forum relating sealed motors, Clutches, Stock exhust, Stock intake etc.I'm for compliance not rule change.

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Jason ,Don
In the years I've been involved in SM that statement hasn't changed. I stand by that statement, I want to have LIMITED performance advancements that the rules allow. When we decided to build a SM we looked at the rules and agreed this is what we want. I do not want a stock class. The rules were intentionally designed to allow these performance advancements. This is what the class was designed for!
Jason, you said the brain trust doesn't hold water? you better look again. Its just the largest, most competive class in scca? IMHO I like the class just as it is. I don't want a stock class. It is not about the money. Its about how one wants to play in the game. I'm going trick or treatin with my grandson, to be continued tomorrow Bob Sr,

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quote:
Originally posted by Bob Carter S,r.:
[QB] Jason ,Don
In the years I've been involved in SM that statement hasn't changed.


Respectfully, that doesn't mean it hasn't changed or that it won't change in the future.

quote:


I stand by that statement, I want to have LIMITED performance advancements that the rules allow.


Well, I guess that's what we're discussing here, what the rules allow.

quote:

When we decided to build a SM we looked at the rules and agreed this is what we want. I do not want a stock class. The rules were intentionally designed to allow these performance advancements.


Which performance enhancements? Suspension? Check. Wheels and tires? Check. Where does it say pro engines are allowed? Or 1100 dollar clutches?

Clearly the intent of the class does not include pro motors and expensive parts of the week. If you don't get that from the intent statement where is says "low cost" maybe you should consider this statement...

"Overhaul procedures that in the slightest way would increase performance are not to be utilized; e.g., porting, etc. Blueprinting and balancing are inconsistent with the philosophy of this class and are not permitted."

That's from out CURRENT ruleset. Someone explain to me how a pro motor doesn't violate that rule?

What's that? It does violate it, but we just can't tech for it? Seems like a problem with the rule then don't you think?


quote:

This is what the class was designed for!

I think you meant to put a "in my opinion" in there...

quote:

Jason, you said the brain trust doesn't hold water?

Actually, I said that your argument that the founders of the class wanted our ruleset to be as it is now doesn't hold water. This is obvious if you compare the two different intent statements. the current one and the one Don posted.

quote:
you better look again. Its just the largest, most competive class in scca?
Well, it certainly is the largest.


quote:
IMHO I like the class just as it is. I don't want a stock class.
Well I don't like the class as much as I could the way it is right now. It's pretty good I must say, but I think it can be better and I think we can ensure it's popularity for the future if we do a few simple things now.

quote:
It is not about the money. Its about how one wants to play in the game. I'm going trick or treatin with my grandson, to be continued tomorrow Bob Sr,
Enjoy your time with your grandson...

J

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Bob, I like "prep" classes too. My favorite would be CSR, where just about anything goes. But this class isn't that. I've also argued against "stock", and against the SM rules being based on SS.

But that doesn't mean that the evolution of the class needs to include pricing everyone out of the sport so that a few smart/rich people can get off on finding new loopholes! I, and many others, thought they might be able to afford racing here! If somebody had told me five years ago that I'd be looking at spending 7k for a motor, and another 1100 for the clutch behind it, I'd still be autocrossing! That kind of "investment" (I use that term advisedly) was just never on the minds of the original crowd.

So having some "new" rules on these components is less a "change" than it is a clarification of what was always intended. It's a course correction "back to center", not some wild detour into the weeds.

jim

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Speaking of wild detours into the weeds, let's stick to the clutch issue.....

While Bob's original post was a bit ambiguous, aside from open clutches, I agree with him. I'm all for open intakes, exhausts, and let's face it, the pro engine ship has sailed. I honestly believe that unless you are trying to win the Run-offs, a pro engine is a complete waste of money. I've run door-to-door with a bunch of talented RE customers this year using an untouched junkyard engine & my weak point is usually my lack of grip. I'm running the old Racing Beat intake and an exhaust similar to the Springfield, so I don't buy the "intake/exhaust of the week" either.

I did realize some performance improvement mid-season with a home-built lightweight pressure plate. Enough so that I could probably have justified paying $800-1000 for it, but I've wanted the spec PP since the RE unit became public knowledge. I believe a high-dollar lightweight PP that requires occasional rebuilding has no business in this class. Even if the clutch rule only specified a minimum weight for the pressure plate and the various flywheels, it would be better than what we've got.

I'm all for tinkering, but items like this that realize some actual improvement at a cost beyond the means of most do not help the class IMHO.

Eric

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quote:
Originally posted by Bob Carter S,r.:
"Purpose and Intent
The Spec Miata (SM) class is intended to provide the opportunity to compete in low cost, production-based cars with limited modifications, suitable for racing competition. The rules are intentionally designed to be more open than the Showroom Stock class but more restricted than the Improved Touring class.
What part of this statement don't you understand?"[/b]

In the years I've been involved in SM that statement hasn't changed. I stand by that statement, I want to have LIMITED performance advancements that the rules allow. When we decided to build a SM we looked at the rules and agreed this is what we want. I do not want a stock class. The rules were intentionally designed to allow these performance advancements. This is what the class was designed for!
Bob Sr,

Sorry Bob but this needs to be said. The ONLY limited modifications originally intended for SM, beyond SS were Tires, Wheels, and Suspension. The rest was to be SS. The truth is, it is Rules creep,(Read as trunk kits), and the price of cars which killed SS. Development of better and better non specified parts was NEVER intended to be part of SM. Even Shannon and David will tell you the Racing Beat intake was a mistake, in hind sight.

The fact is the class would be no less competitive, fun, or popular with Stock Intakes, Stock Clutches, and MS exhausts. It would be cheaper and maybe the Clutched Difs and Transmissions might live a little longer than they do now.

It would still boil down to Prep, Set-up, and driver skill, just the way it was designed. We could all get along without the background noise created by the intake of the week, exhaust of the month, or boutique engine shop in vouge for the year, ya think??? These things scare the hell out of some who are considering jointing the fun and the class, too.
[Wink]

--------------------
Ed Davis
Blackwater Motorsports

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I think Hiro Nakamura transported me back to 2003. [Roll Eyes]

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quote:
Originally posted by Antonio Garza:
I think Hiro Nakamura transported me back to 2003. [Roll Eyes]

I know you were joking and I'm trying not to be a jerk, but just because this issue is a long standing one doesn't mean it isn't a valid debate anymore. That just means it hasn't been resolved in a number of peoples eyes.

Is anyone morally opposed to a minimum weight, say 7.5 lbs, as EBudman stated?

A few months ago I sent in my letter to the crb asking for a spec minimum weight. That would allow a majority of the cars with $500 clutches to keep theirs while eliminating the ultralight/expensive ones.

For the tinkerers, they could monkey with putting the weight in the center, spending oodles of money on minimal gains all they want.

Yes, no?

Of course, if it's spec or open, I throw my hat into the spec column.

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Holly crud, would someone summarize to I can get caught up without reading all that?

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The CRB is doing a good thing here. Last time I looked at Stan's numbers we were pushing 1700 cars in NATIONAL comp. There are a bunch more running regional only I am sure.

What percentage do you think really have a non stock/ACT clutch? This is no different than the cam rule. A small number of people have the high dollar ones and the rest don't. This is the old greatest good for the greatest number decision and it is a good one IMHO.

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I sympathize with Bob’s position that they entered the class based on the concept of it being between SS and IT, and that some of the proposed changes make it less like a “real” race class. But the rules don’t read exactly as stated and I interpret them differently than he does.

quote:
The Spec Miata (SM) class is intended to provide the opportunity to compete in low cost, production-based cars with limited modifications, suitable for racing competition. The rules are intentionally designed to be more open than the Showroom Stock class but more restricted than the Improved Touring class.
The first sentence is clear enough, but I interpret the word “open” in the second sentence to mean more “modified/less stock” rather than allowing more creativity/development EXCEPT for the items specifically identified as unrestricted. A convenient interpretation? Perhaps, but I think strongly supported by the wording of the rest of the rule set not to mention the name of the class. Nothing the SCCA is currently considering violates the original intent as stated in the rules, and the cars will still be considerably more race-car-like than SS.

Personally, I wish they would find a way to keep most of the existing clutches. The gains from the BSI and equivalent really are small and not worth having forcing people to replace them. A minimum weight plus wording about stock diameter disk would reduce the radical options.

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quote:
Originally posted by jwalter:
quote:
Originally posted by Antonio Garza:
I think Hiro Nakamura transported me back to 2003. [Roll Eyes]

I know you were joking and I'm trying not to be a jerk, but just because this issue is a long standing one doesn't mean it isn't a valid debate anymore.
Of course I was joking...partly.

Debating? There's no debate here. The same people have the same opinion. There are some new people posting the same opinions as have been posted before. There will be no changing of opinions on this forum I guarantee you. So in other words, talk is cheap, write the CRB.

Me? I'm pretty much the same as Tim. I like to tinker. Do I have the time for all of my ideas? No. I would also appreciate someone keeping me from tinkering too much (I think my wife would too). So in other words, I'm for more spec stuff (I'm with the crowd who thinks open exhaust and intakes are OK at this point, but not opposed to spec'ing anything), but if you leave stuff open...well, more fun for me. If you spec everything...well, I might have to order some more sensors for my data system and maybe develop my infrared live tire temp monitoring sysetm. [Big Grin]

Honestly, if the competition was there in my region, I might consider IT or FP. I'm here because of the class size and competitiveness. My best race was for 20-something place against Tim Buck's old car (top prep)...it was fun...right Kent? I like to race and tinker...otherwise, for pure tinkering I'd get an old car and do something fun with it [Smile]

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quote:
Originally posted by Antonio Garza:
quote:
Originally posted by jwalter:
quote:
Originally posted by Antonio Garza:
I think Hiro Nakamura transported me back to 2003. [Roll Eyes]

I know you were joking and I'm trying not to be a jerk, but just because this issue is a long standing one doesn't mean it isn't a valid debate anymore.
Of course I was joking...partly.

Debating? There's no debate here. The same people have the same opinion. There are some new people posting the same opinions as have been posted before. There will be no changing of opinions on this forum I guarantee you. So in other words, talk is cheap, write the CRB.

Well, no, no ones opinion is going to be changed here. I'm not that naive. [Smile]

What the "pseudo-debate" does is inform people not participating. Basically, I form my opinion based on the merits of both debating sides.

Real, formalized debates don't end with one side saying, "Damn, I guess you're right...oh well." People on the fence use the information to make up their minds.
Then, hopefully, they send in their newly-formed preference into the crb.

--------------------
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The big isssue for me here is enforcement. We can not even enforce the ruleset we have. Writing new rules without getting a handle on the enforcement of the rules we have is in my opinion a mistake.

When 6 out of the top 10 cars on day 1 at the runoffs were found illegal that should tell you something.

Lets take the new PP rule.... How the hell are you going to enforce that rule? The regional tech staff does not have the time, tools, space or resources to enforce this. Unfortunately the runoffs showed me that if it is not enforceable then it is wide open until the Runoffs.

SCCA has a flywheel spec, but they wont release it.... Same thing with shocks. How do you enforce a secret number?

What about all the "Shaved Piston" motors that were fire saled once the cam clarification came out? How do we keep those out of the regions?

I like the new clarifications that have been written and some of the ones that are being discussed, but they need to be able to be enforced.

Just my 2 cents.....

Sean

 
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