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Author Topic: December Fastrack - Spec Tire input required
B Wilson Verified Driver Series Champ
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Item 1. The CRB is soliciting input from the Spec Miata community in whether or not they would like to continue with a spec tire beyond
the 2008 season.

Item 2. The SM advisory committee is considering specifying a maximum track width for all cars of 1440mm front and 1450mm rear.
Input on such a change is sought from the SM community.

Email crb@scca.com

Input required! I'd hate to see a handfull of folks slip this by us when the vast majority prefers a spec tire.

-Bruce

--------------------
Bruce Wilson
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Mark de Regt Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Bruce, there recently was a long thread here, quite germane to your first question.

I have no idea what my "track" is on my car (and no good way to calculate it), so I cannot comment on that.

Dusty Bottoms Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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The track is basically what you'd get with 30mm offset wheels + a little bit of slop, based one measurements on real cars with different wheels if that helps.

--------------------
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Mark de Regt Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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So is the idea to get rid of wheel spacers? And, if so, why?

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Mark,

The current track rule is kind of dumb as it may encourage people to massage the fenders for more offset. Hard to spec a fender dimension in this class...

As long as we all have the same offset what does it matter? Good rule change hope the CRB agrees.

One last thing, no matter how you feel about things, make sure everyone sends an email on how you feel about tires. Now is the time to comment. crb@scca.org

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Spacers are a useful tuning aid. I think a track width needs to be defined but it should be a spec that allows reasonable latitude for spacer use. I've seen some cars with 1" spacers and heavily massaged fenders. On the other hand I've used spacers from ART (1/4" ?) from time to time to help tune the car and have no issues with my current Kazeras wrt fender clearance and coverage. A few minutes with a tape measure and a stock fendered car would tell us what the numbers should be. I don't agree with the outlawing of spacers which is what the proposed Fastrack spec does.

--------------------
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Mike C Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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I actually prefer an open tire at the National Level and allow the regions to spec a regional tire just like they can now.

--------------------
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B Wilson Verified Driver Series Champ
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quote:
Originally posted by Mark:
Spacers are a useful tuning aid. I think a track width needs to be defined but it should be a spec that allows reasonable latitude for spacer use. I've seen some cars with 1" spacers and heavily massaged fenders. On the other hand I've used spacers from ART (1/4" ?) from time to time to help tune the car and have no issues with my current Kazeras wrt fender clearance and coverage. A few minutes with a tape measure and a stock fendered car would tell us what the numbers should be. I don't agree with the outlawing of spacers which is what the proposed Fastrack spec does.

I agree, set the track max to what it should be with the current rule w/out modified fenders. No need to throw away spacers or lose the ability to tune.

-Bruce

--------------------
Bruce Wilson
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Dusty Bottoms Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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I guess nobody remembers the original intent of the spacers? It was to allow those with 35-38-40mm offset wheels to run 30mm offset without having to buy new tires...not to add another tuning aid.

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TillerTech
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I am thinking the math is off a smidge.
The stock car has a 1427mm rear track width with 45mm offset wheels. So, if you change the offset of the wheels, it should be easy to calculate.
Take the 30mm offset wheels that everyone except Boelmer is running and the 1450mm offset is too narrow by 7 mm. 45-30=15 per side, 30 total, add 1427=1457 track width. I think you want 1460.

F-Production cars run 1491mm rear width.

check me, my calculator is at the office and the phone buttons are too small.

John

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Mark de Regt Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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I bought a fully-set-up car from someone getting out of SM. It had spacers, with Kosei K1 Racing wheels.

If I have to get rid of the spacers, will the wheels still fit my hubs? The wheels have a +38 offset, which should be fine, I would think.

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Mark,

You are fine. I have the Kosei's too. You are -8 on the rule as proposed without the spacers. 8mm spacers get you to a 30mm offset which is what the rule allows.

--------------------
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Casey Z - 1.6 Kettle
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Thanks, Casey.

Blake Clements Verified Driver Series Champ
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quote:
Originally posted by Bruce Wilson:


Input required! I'd hate to see a handfull of folks slip this by us when the vast majority prefers a spec tire.

-Bruce

IMHO,

There are also many benefits to an open tire rule that maybe some of the SS and Touring types around here can allude to. No fees to shave tires, no special secret shaves, better support at events from manufacturers and sales representatives, etc.

--------------------
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Steven Burkett Verified Driver
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I don't want an open tire, I want a spec tire, and I want it to be Hoosiers. I will write in accordingly.

Hoosier advantages:

1) Fast as built, with predictable fall-off.
2) Real rain tire available
3) Supported at virtually every race
4) Surprisingly durable
5) Made in the U.S.

As far as SS/T input, custom shaves are not as bad as custom compounds and construction which is what you have in SS/T. The fast get faster with special tires, early access to new models, etc. And the custom shave and manufacturer support problems are easily solved with Hoosier as a spec tire!

Steven

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I'm pretty sure the best custom shave is 4 sessions' worth of driving on a 3/32" toyo. That's waaaay more expensive than any "custom" 1/32" cambered shave, even when you factor in the cost of the fairy dust sprinkled on it.

Anyway, black helicopters aside, I want Spec Hoosier. They look cooler.

--------------------
Rich Wiese

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quote:
Originally posted by Antonio Garza:
I guess nobody remembers the original intent of the spacers? It was to allow those with 35-38-40mm offset wheels to run 30mm offset without having to buy new tires...not to add another tuning aid.

Exactly. Spacers aren't needed. Just another cost and another area for fudging. Set the track width to include the different allow the use of the early wheels and be done with it.

--------------------
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Mike C Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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quote:
Originally posted by Jason Holland:
quote:
Originally posted by Antonio Garza:
I guess nobody remembers the original intent of the spacers? It was to allow those with 35-38-40mm offset wheels to run 30mm offset without having to buy new tires...not to add another tuning aid.

Exactly. Spacers aren't needed. Just another cost and another area for fudging. Set the track width to include the different allow the use of the early wheels and be done with it.
Jason, I love you to death, but you have no idea what you are talking about. Spacers are a BIG tunning aid. You can use some BIG spacers and still be within the current rules without bending the fenders. It is all about set up. Spacers in the rear can work like a sway bar adjustment, or half an adjustment. What about guys who already own and run 25mm offset wheels?

I think they need to measure what the MAX track COULD be and then set the rule. I am not sure that the measurement they have now is right.

--------------------
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quote:
Jason, I love you to death, but you have no idea what you are talking about. Spacers are a BIG tunning aid. You can use some BIG spacers and still be within the current rules without bending the fenders. It is all about set up. Spacers in the rear can work like a sway bar adjustment, or half an adjustment. What about guys who already own and run 25mm offset wheels?

I think they need to measure what the MAX track COULD be and then set the rule. I am not sure that the measurement they have now is right.

Mike, I love you too. Now that we've got that out of the way....

I think you missed my point. I don't discount that using the spacers works as a tuning aid. I'm sure it does. What I'm saying is... It isn't NEEDED. It's just another area that's confusing to noobs, costs money and makes things more complicated. It also opens another area to "Optimization".

I've seen too many cars with massaged fenders and 1 inch spacers. That crap has to stop. Just make it simple. Big enough track to include the old wheels with spacers and a little wiggle room. If someone wants to exploit that wiggle room then great, but the returns are next to nothing.

Jason, who is feeling loved today... YAY!

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Mike,

It doesn't matter to me whether they allow spacers to an offset other than 30, as long as all the cars can achieve it. I do believe the fenders on the 99's allow for more adjustment here than the early cars. Would you be agreeable to something that takes this into account?

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jigou Verified Driver
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Set the spec to whatever it needs to be for a 30mm wheel with a 1/4" spacer.

Still within the fenders (which is the rule now), and discourages the fender massaging that "might" happen.

Don't wanna screw with the spacers? Then don't. I play with spacers on my car 'cause I've already got them to help my Kosei wheels get close to 30mm.

And I vote Hoosier spec tire. The esteemed Mr. Burkett has a very valid point on the "Special" tires that already do crop up in T/SS classes.

And the difference in speed between the "special" and the "regular" tires can be more than the few hundredths found with screwing around with spacers.

Jarrod

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I know, let's have another tire test! That worked out SO well the first time.

[Roll Eyes]

--------------------
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TillerTech
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Why not leave the rule, tires under lip of fender and spec a max distance fender lip to fender lip??
Why try to make this anymore difficult than it has to be? And, who decided that the 30mm offset was the rule?

Fire awary, John

PS, Tim, it is only an illusion to save the racer money.......HA HA HA!!!

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Ara Verified Driver Series Champ
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quote:
Originally posted by TimBuck:
I know, let's have another tire test! That worked out SO well the first time.

[Roll Eyes]

Tim, call me an eternal optimist, but I think it is the right answer. We just need to make sure that is not overrun with politics and that the actual tires being tested are the ones being proposed!

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TillerTech
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I have a suggestion,
1. Let the tire manufacturers bid for the Spec Miata class tire contract to MazdaSpeed motorsports.
2. Publish the details to the Spec Miata community, afterall, we are the customers, not SCCA and NASA. This means pricing and availablity.

Sorry, I don't trust volunteer groups, I trust a business more that provides to the customer.

John

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D.B. Cutler Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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[twocents]

I would like a spec tire. However, I want a spec tire which is molded to the proper racing tread depth so that we don't have to shave them.
Shaving adds a hidden cost and it also provides another variable which goes against the whole "spec" idea. Plus, the guys at the front get free tires, and get to shave them down to 2/32", win, and then repeat the process. Guys at the back can do the same, but it would cost them a bunch and they'd go through tires more quickly.

Also, make the rain tire open.

They can go ahead and spec a maximum track width provided that it doesn't cause us to have to run out and buy new wheels. I think the $99 Kazeras and Kosei's w/10mm (or 8mm ?) spacers are the same and at the max without hitting the fenders.

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quote:
Originally posted by Ara:
quote:
Originally posted by TimBuck:
I know, let's have another tire test! That worked out SO well the first time.

[Roll Eyes]

Tim, call me an eternal optimist, but I think it is the right answer. We just need to make sure that is not overrun with politics and that the actual tires being tested are the ones being proposed!
AND that the results are what govern the choice of the tire.

I agree that it COULD happen. I just don't know if we'll have the chance.

Does anyone here know anyone who was involved with the recent SRF tire selection process?

Jarrod

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quote:
Originally posted by Casey Z (aka El Guapo):
Mike,

It doesn't matter to me whether they allow spacers to an offset other than 30, as long as all the cars can achieve it. I do believe the fenders on the 99's allow for more adjustment here than the early cars. Would you be agreeable to something that takes this into account?

Yes. Right now you can LEGALLY run 1/2" spacers in the front and 1" spacers in the rear of a '99 and you can run 1/2" all the way around on an NA with 30mm offset wheels with no fender massaging. You do need to roll the fender lip, but I do that on all of my cars anyway, it cuts down on cut tires in a side to side "donut" type contact.

I think this is easy fellas. Put the two different body styles on a flat surface with donut spares on it. Hang a plumb down from the fenders and mark the floor, move the car and measure the distance between the marks. Then you have max track for both of the body styles.

My 5 year old could do this math, why is it SO hard for the sanctioning bodies to get it right?

--------------------
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quote:
Originally posted by Mike C:
I think this is easy fellas. Put the two different body styles on a flat surface with donut spares on it. Hang a plumb down from the fenders and mark the floor, move the car and measure the distance between the marks. Then you have max track for both of the body styles.

My 5 year old could do this math, why is it SO hard for the sanctioning bodies to get it right?

Well, because YOU haven't got it right yet. First, track is measured at the center of the tire tread. If you allowed a track as wide as you say, the wheels would be several inches outside the fender wells.

The second issue is left as an exercise for the reader. [Wink]

jim (rules are never quite as easy as they look)

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Email sent to SCCA.

Thanks for the prod, Bruce.

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quote:
Originally posted by Steven Burkett:
I don't want an open tire, I want a spec tire, and I want it to be Hoosiers. I will write in accordingly. ...

Steve, if you are interested in the various arguments against Hoosier as the spec choice, there are plenty of posts from our last round of discussions. Or, I can start repeating them all here. [Smile] I'm not sure if the latest Hoosier is significantly different, but that there is so often a new version from them is already one big strike against IMO. We need a guarantee of at least three years with no change, but that may not set well with them.

B Wilson Verified Driver Series Champ
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quote:
Originally posted by Jim Boemler:
quote:
Originally posted by Mike C:
I think this is easy fellas. Put the two different body styles on a flat surface with donut spares on it. Hang a plumb down from the fenders and mark the floor, move the car and measure the distance between the marks. Then you have max track for both of the body styles.

My 5 year old could do this math, why is it SO hard for the sanctioning bodies to get it right?

Well, because YOU haven't got it right yet. First, track is measured at the center of the tire tread. If you allowed a track as wide as you say, the wheels would be several inches outside the fender wells.

The second issue is left as an exercise for the reader. [Wink]

jim (rules are never quite as easy as they look)

Okay then... Could someone please do the math so we could argue about the max size of spacer? I bought the 15mm H&R spacers a long time ago, and would love to keep using those with my 30mm offset wheels. That's kept me within the current rule on my NA without fender massaging. More than 15mm spacer would most likely require massaging.

-Bruce

--------------------
Bruce Wilson
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B Wilson Verified Driver Series Champ
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quote:
Originally posted by Casey Z (aka El Guapo):

One last thing, no matter how you feel about things, make sure everyone sends an email on how you feel about tires. Now is the time to comment. crb@scca.org


--------------------
Bruce Wilson
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Bruce,

I think that someone at the SCCA has already done the math. If I'm not mistaken, the '99 cars can fit larger spacers without having the tires touch the fenders since the fenders are wider (at least in the rear for sure). It sounds like they are trying to make sure that everyone runs the same track width in order to avoid giving the newer model an advantage.

Of course, I am writing after consuming three beers in rapid succession, so this may just be the alcohol talking...

B Wilson Verified Driver Series Champ
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Doesn't sound like their math is correct though.

quote:
Originally posted by TillerTech:
I am thinking the math is off a smidge.
The stock car has a 1427mm rear track width with 45mm offset wheels. So, if you change the offset of the wheels, it should be easy to calculate.
Take the 30mm offset wheels that everyone except Boelmer is running and the 1450mm offset is too narrow by 7 mm. 45-30=15 per side, 30 total, add 1427=1457 track width. I think you want 1460.

F-Production cars run 1491mm rear width.

check me, my calculator is at the office and the phone buttons are too small.

John

Given my 15mm spacers, 1491 sounds right.

-Bruce
Still at freakin work [Frown]

--------------------
Bruce Wilson
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If tires are un-speced, get ready to start
carrying more tires than you are now. Those new tires will generally be more expensive,more specialized(sticker A's for a hot lap,heat-cycled R's for the race,A's and R's mixed on different corners at different tracks etc)and less durable than the Toyos. Cars that are camber-challenged will wear out the soft compounds pretty quickly too.

On the other hand, a few folks will probably get tire deals because lots of manufacturers will want to get in on the action.Good news for some.Not me.

Tires are one aspect of SM that aint broke.

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-CJ Johnson

spdmonkey Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Around these parts (Great Lakes Division) we have 2 tire companies that are present at most of the races I've been to. Hoosier tire Midwest and Competition Tire (Goodyear). Having a tire vendor at the track and de facto representatives of that manufacturer is awesome. When is the last time you saw a Toyo truck at a club race? I myself wrote a letter for open tires with additional comments that I am in the distinct minority and if a spec tire is inevitable that it be the Hoosier.

About 8 years ago when I last actively ran SS it was not that hard to get a tire deal. At least it wasn't for me and the only thing I had done was won a Regional Championship. I just called the vendor and started a dialog. I know times have changed, but what it comes down to is advertising and thats what they want. Just come up with a plan and give it a shot. The worst thing a company can do is say no. Tire deals come in all shapes and sizes. If you cut your tire budget by 25% or 50% its still a big savings. Not always the fastest guys with the free tires. Just my [twocents] .

db

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quote:
Originally posted by Steve Scheifler (aka Lucky Day):
[ We need a guarantee of at least three years with no change, [/QB]

Yeah, Just like the toyos never changed! [Eek!]

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Jim Drago
East Street Auto Salvage
jdrago1@aol.com
2006-2007 Mid-West Division
07,09 June Sprints Champion

EAST STREET RACING

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Meathead Meathead Meathead...
As soon as they start hitting home... [Big Grin]
The proposed rule is an excellent one, with 30 mm or less offset you are alreading inducing scrub. Yes they are a tuning aide, but if we are are on same track, that is one less thing WE ALL( We are worried about the class right? Not individuals?) [Razz] have to worry about. It is one less thing we spend time and money on(track time etc testing) As far as the fender rule, it is a joke... Whatever you say is correct, I can make it a minimum of 1 inch wider, maybe two, with no marks whatsoever... It also allows 90-97 cars and 99 cars to run the same track. Just more BS to worry about and fool with IMO.

Spec th track, great rule! [Razz] [Razz]

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Jim Drago
East Street Auto Salvage
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EAST STREET RACING

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quote:
Originally posted by Jim Drago:
Meathead Meathead Meathead...
As soon as they start hitting home... [Big Grin]
The proposed rule is an excellent one, with 30 mm or less offset you are alreading inducing scrub. Yes they are a tuning aide, but if we are are on same track, that is one less thing WE ALL( We are worried about the class right? Not individuals?) [Razz] have to worry about. It is one less thing we spend time and money on(track time etc testing) As far as the fender rule, it is a joke... Whatever you say is correct, I can make it a minimum of 1 inch wider, maybe two, with no marks whatsoever... It also allows 90-97 cars and 99 cars to run the same track. Just more BS to worry about and fool with IMO.

Spec th track, great rule! [Razz] [Razz]

I'm not saying not to spec the track. I'm saying go measure your car! They got the number wrong.

--------------------
Mike Collins
MEATHEAD Racing
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The MEATHEAD Racing 2010 Calendar is up!!!!
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ALL OPINIONS ON RULES OR SPECIFICATIONS ARE JUST THAT, MY OPINIONS!

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 -


If Bernie was a smart marketer, he has the perfect way to tap American audiences and get them to embrace Formula 1. It's right under his nose and he's already paid for it.

Liven it up [rockband]

Send Paula Abdul overseas and have her put together a choreographed show with the F1 umbrella girls and call half time during the races. Have the girls turn cart wheels while spinning, twisting, and shaking the umbrellas all in sync in their daisy dukes. Pump in the loud music and hire a few rap stars on a portable stage across start finish.

Skip the technical mumbo jumbo commentary during the race, dumb it down, and have a rap star cameo appearance as commentator and F1 will make fantastic enroads here. Bridgestone has been doing it with their rapping commercials for the past two years, so there's your sponsorship dollars waiting in the wings.

Screw having an American F1 driver. Too expensive. It starts with the colorful umbrellas, nifty TV trailers showing skin, cleavage and rap stars and success for road racing is right around the corner. Spillover exposure follows in Champcar, ALMS & Grand Am.

Sorry for the hijack Mike. Your avatar triggered a marketing moment here.

Back to tires - hijack out,

Don

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Careful what you ask for, Don. [Frown]

jim

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Just a clown

Jack Marr
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quote:
Originally posted by TillerTech:
Why not leave the rule, tires under lip of fender and spec a max distance fender lip to fender lip??

Given the way fenders tend to change shape during the course of a race, this might be difficult to enforce.

TillerTech
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Jack,

good point!!

--------------------
Miata Race glass and CF from Legacy Molds. 4 1/2# CF Hood
http://www.jnent.net

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I am all for spec tire. I would also like a three year (at least) deal for that tire. Also a price lock.

I do like purple.

--------------------
Ralph Provitz
#38
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V2 Motorsports, Race support, Data Dude

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How about a spec tire that you qualify with and have to race, no special qualifying tires.

Pat

--------------------
keeping the faith for the 1.6

Arrow Karts

B Wilson Verified Driver Series Champ
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I Hope everyone has given their input on spec/open tires for Spec Miata beyond 2008. Here's my letter.

-Bruce
Email CRB now: crb@scca.com

I wish to continue with the spec tire rule in Spec Miata beyond 2008. I'm satisfied with the current rule, as well as the selection process and outcome. This rule should also be extended to Regional as well, as most (if not all) regions have opted to include the spec tire rule in their supps.

One last thing, I would like the selection criteria to weigh heavy on a tire that can be used in both rain and dry conditions, as I prefer to keep it simple and like a rain tire that can be shaved and used as dries at a later time.

Thanks,

-Bruce
Bruce Wilson
283191

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Bruce Wilson
2010 Oregon Region Champ
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JD Morris Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Thanks for the reminder, Bruce. Letter sent.

JD

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OK guys. Any idea what is going on on this topic with SMAC / CRB?

I am looking to get some more wheels in stock and I don't want to buy a ton of soon-to-be-obsolete 25mm wheels if they are the wrong answer...

On a similar topic, anyone know if there is a difference in the actual width of the track (with the same offset wheels) between a 90-97 and a 99? Is that why the Torsen rule says you have to keep the early uprights?

Thanks...

Ara

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www.alararacing.com

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Ara, I believe the 99's have a wider rear track. Mike C or Drago can confirm that tough.

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----------------
Z Brothers Racing / East Street Auto

Casey Z - 1.6 Kettle
MidDiv National #13

 
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