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Author Topic: Mazda Comp LSD Discontinued!
MFJackson Verified Driver
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Well, I tried order a MC LSD unit last week and the part came up as "no longer available" in the shopping cart. I called Mazda to check and didn't hear from the until today. Mazda has discontinued production of the diff and it can longer be ordered through Mazda. Apparently, they are searching for other alternatives, but this should make things interesting.

FYI - I would have gone with the torsen, but they are not allowed in SSM - maybe this will change as a result of this news?

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Matt Jackson
#55 SSM
MEATHEAD Racing
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Colin MacLean Verified Driver
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Well that's a bolt from the blue. Did anyone know this was coming?

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Colin MacLean
Flyin' MacLean Motorsports

Andy Bettencourt Verified Driver
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We got the news proactively from Mazda last week. Couple of choices:

1. Have Tim 'do his thang' and source another unit to be sold as teh MC LSD (as it is now). Issues? No guarantee price will be the same, no guarantee the performance will be the same, and no guarantee the quality will be the same (could be better, could be worse)

2. Let it die and have the allowed Torsen conversion become the default. Issues? Need to determine the REAL performance difference, if any. If significant enough, what changes are to be made and when.

I think we need to have Tim source another one. What does everyone else think?

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Andy Bettencourt
Flatout Motorsports
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Rich Verified Driver
Oh, that's where that is.

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That sucks. We need a replacement, I don't want a torsen.

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Rich Wiese

Spec Wrecker Ford

Blake Clements Verified Driver Series Champ
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quote:
Originally posted by Andy Bettencourt:
We got the news proactively from Mazda last week. Couple of choices:

1. Have Tim 'do his thang' and source another unit to be sold as teh MC LSD (as it is now). Issues? No guarantee price will be the same, no guarantee the performance will be the same, and no guarantee the quality will be the same (could be better, could be worse)

2. Let it die and have the allowed Torsen conversion become the default. Issues? Need to determine the REAL performance difference, if any. If significant enough, what changes are to be made and when.

I think we need to have Tim source another one. What does everyone else think?

Grandfather the comp diff for 2 years and work on parity with the Torsen in the 1.6. The last thing we need is something else to shake it up.

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Blake Clements

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Steve Scheifler Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Expect to hear responses similar to "I'd like more than two more years out of my very expensive 1.6 diffs and LSD units."

I have three LSDs and I've bought two complete pumpkins in the last year. I'd shelve those for better parity but it would be a significant expense, and not everyone will feel it is justified.

If it goes that way, the early 1.8s should also move to the later Torsen with the same ratios.

Mark McCallister Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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quote:
Originally posted by Steve Scheifler (aka Lucky Day):
Expect to hear responses similar to "I'd like more than two more years out of my very expensive 1.6 diffs and LSD units."

Not driving hard enough if it lasts more than two years. [Big Grin]

Similarly I would be pretty peeved if I just spent $1k on a torsen and a new clutch diff that had the same specs as the old one but didn't grenade became available, because I'd want that one...

TimBuck Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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It's not the 1.6 LSD that's the problem. It's actually pretty rare that it fails.

--------------------
Tim Buck

MAZDASPEED Motorsports Development
Mazda North American Operations
phone (800) 435-2508
fax (949) 222-2650

zoom-zoom!

David de Regt Verified Driver
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[Frown] I need to build my SM over the coming months, I want a clutchpack.

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Greg Bush Verified Driver
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I think I can hear the price of Torsen conversions and used MC LSDs going up right now....

Rich Verified Driver
Oh, that's where that is.

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quote:
Originally posted by Mark McCallister:
Not driving hard enough if it lasts more than two years. [Big Grin]

Maybe mine's worn out, but mine is two years old and it behaves exactly the same as the one in the car that finished 10th at the Runoffs...

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Rich Wiese

Spec Wrecker Ford

MFJackson Verified Driver
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Does anyone know of aftermarket lsd units made for the 1.6? I imagine that quaife, kaaz or similar outfits have applications. However, I doubt that they are cheap and allowing them would open a whole bag of worms in terms of parity between existing MC units, torsen, and any aftemarket units.

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Matt Jackson
#55 SSM
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Greg Bush Verified Driver
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phantomgrip

These are cheap and easy. Anyone know if they work?

jigou Verified Driver
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From what I've heard third-hand, "phantom grip" is a very appropriate name for them....

Jarrod

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Normally - It's not the LSD that goes out, the Ring and Pinion gears fails. If the pieces don't foul it up it can be rebuilt. But, IMO... Once they go they don't last as long after a rebuild. The shop I used in Memphis has concluded that the ring gear bolts should NEVER be reused.

I have found the Torsen has less drive off tight corners under power I was thinking of building a new LSD now I don't know what to do?

Z-Man

Ara Verified Driver Series Champ
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Tim, can you confirm what the situation is? Are they out of production or do we have to find alternate sources?

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Marlboro Mafia Verified Driver
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I have one listed on eBay right now if anyone's interested. . .

tahoe z Verified Driver
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hi andy,can you help me with my ITA miata.i am using 4.88 gears in a 169hp/145tq motor and have sheared the 5th/ rev shaft ,2 times in about 1.5 hrs of rebuild.can you tell me what are the best gears to run and not kill the trans with this motor,thanks kim/send pm!

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kim willcox

D.B. Cutler Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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I had repeated probelms with the R&P's after converting my viscous diff to an MC LSD. The LSD was fine but the R&P failed repeatedly and for various reasons.

I gave up on it and converted to a torsen at the end of last season.

IMHO, we should standardize on a rule which allows either an open diff or the torsen so that everyone has the same types of rear diffs. It's one more item which we can make the same throughout the class which would be a good move towards "spec".

That said, I don't have a huge probelm with people using up their LSD's over the next few years since they have already paid for them.

[twocents]

backusm Verified Driver Made Donation to Website Series Champ
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Its the start of the Baatan death march. Compensate by allowing a lighter flywheel in cars that have the 99 torsen.

Wonder if this means I should put my comp diff into my spare diff, since the existing one has 2 seasons on it.

I'm also the proud owner of of 95 torsen unit. Does anyone know if you can bolt the 1.6 ring gear onto it.

Maybe the RX7 has a similar diff?

Or, in the extreme, allow the 1.6 an even better gear ratio (4.55?). That should help the hole shot off the corner and address the torque issue.

Some of the other classes make a weight allowance on the car based on what trans or brakes you have. Maybe we could do the same. 99 torsen gets you another 25 lbs off in weight.

--------------------
Mike Backus
90 SM white #94

D.B. Cutler Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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The weight difference between the LSD and the Torsen is 9 lbs. However, if you want to spot me another 16lbs off due to the lower torque output of the 1.6L engine, I won't argue with you ! [Big Grin]

Although at 2300lbs, I think we're getting too low since 225lb guys like me can't get the car/drive combo down to those kind of weights.It would be better to add weight to the non-1.6L cars.

We should make it +50lbs to all non-1.6L cars just to be on the safe side. [thumbsup]

disquek Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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The current MazdaComp LSD has been in place too long to ever be made illegal.

There must be thousands of them out there. I can see the mass exodus if they're ever made illegal.

I think the best solution is to let Tim do his thing and source a comparable unit.

Every part of these cars will eventually go out of production. We can't make it major issue when something goes.

-Kyle

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Most of the 9 pound weight difference is rotating. My butt dyno (and lap times) say the '99 torsen is slower in a straight line. But I like enduros and got tired of worrying about the stock pinion, so when it broke I went torsen.

Some sort of allowance would be nice, but I changed over knowing that the torsen would be slower.

What makes sense to me is allowing people to run their MC LSDs until they die, and allow and encourage the 1.8s to convert to torsen. Eventually we'll all be on the same diff.

Scott

D.B. Cutler Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Kyle,

Let me guess, you use an LSD and either have a shop to set it up for you or know the magic numbers to set it up yourself so that the R&P doesn't tear themselves to pieces ?

[soapbox] As a group, we've (1.6L SMers) spent thousands on R&P failures due to improperly set up MC LSD diffs. The only guys who want them are the guys who can get them set up properly, thus giving them an advantage over everyone who isn't in the know or has a 1.8L car.

As far as I know, the MC LSD was never a production part. We should ask our Mazda buds to chime in, but wasn't it relased originally so that the 1.6L guys could get something other than the viscous diff in order to be comparable with the torsens in the later cars ? Now that the torsen is allowed, why not standardize on it so that everyone's on the same page ?

And while I'm stiring the pot (again), where's the outrage from the 1.8L guys that the 1.6L guys get a type of diff to which they don't have access ?

Jim Boemler Verified Driver
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I think the "outrage" is tempered with 200cc of crocodile tears. [Razz]

As for the LSD only lasting if it's installed right, the solution to that "problem" seems obvious.

jim (almost 5 years on the same LSD, works fine)

--------------------
Just a clown

D.B. Cutler Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Sorry Jim, I'm not seeing the obvious part.

When I rebuilt mine, I first followed the service manual to the letter. Result, Boom ! Then I talked to a fellow SM person who I know knows what he's doing and followed his recommendations. Result, Boom ! Then I talked to a bunch of people both in SM and old timers who've rebuilt many diffs of all types and followed their recommendations. Result, Boom !

There's only a few parts in there. If you don't get the ring and pinion gear lash just right, then the two parts are going to eat each other. Tell me what I'm missing.

Jim Boemler Verified Driver
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Well, the obvious part is to learn how to do it right. Part of that is reading the manual, although Greg Bush and I have come to the conclusion that the method in the manual is actually not optimum. We skip the double tightening of the pinion bolt, and do it only once.

The rest of it is just care -- check everything, and don't be too anxious to just bolt it together. Mine was the second one that Greg and I did ourselves, and we've done several others. I don't know of any failures, but it's possible, since I haven't really tracked them. I do try to use brand-new ring gear bolts each time, and I use copious amounts of red Loctite. We do check the engagement pattern, as well as the lash.

jim

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Just a clown

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I believe many, if not most, failures aren't from a failure to "do it right", or heat, or oil change intervals. Cumulative stress on the gears eventually leads to failure. I'm not saying that a perfect build won't last a little longer, but I think plenty of properly assembled diffs have failed. Start with an old street diff and it will likely fail a lot sooner. Drive it extremely hard or do more tire-spinning entries back onto the track after an off, and it will fail sooner. Give me Jim's, and I can break it. [Wink]

I've asked this before but don't recall an answer. How many have broken one built up from a fresh pumpkin?

Meanwhile, I don't see a particularly good solution to this situation but I think a gradual shift to the Torsen in the most likely. The RX7 clutch type could be used and would last a lot longer than the one we have now, but it would just start another variance in need of adjustments. As much as I'd like to run one, let's not go there.

I assume the existing LSD was offered as a general competition part for Miatas and not specifically related to SM.

Casey Z Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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I hate stir the pot, but oh well. So we can't run 99 shock hats till April partly due to the fact that Mazda is out of them and everyone should have access to them. Okay sounds reasonable. So if I can't buy a comp diff and have to run a VLSD because Mazda is out how is that any different?

I understand that it isn't SCCA, NASA, or any sanctioning body's fault, but shouldn't there be some adjustment made? What about the guys that are just now building 1.6's? Anyone have an opinion on this?

Don't just think I already have one, no big deal. As someone else said, it is like having and IED strapped to the bottom of your car...

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Z Brothers Racing / East Street Auto

Casey Z - 1.6 Kettle
MidDiv National #13

TimBuck Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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VLSD has been discontinued for years.

--------------------
Tim Buck

MAZDASPEED Motorsports Development
Mazda North American Operations
phone (800) 435-2508
fax (949) 222-2650

zoom-zoom!

Casey Z Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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quote:
Originally posted by TimBuck:
VLSD has been discontinued for years.

Good point and of course you are correct. That said a VLSD isn't a performance advantage. Hence my question.

BTW, not a shot at you Tim, supplier issues suck. Not your fault I know.

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----------------
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Casey Z - 1.6 Kettle
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cam Verified Driver
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quote:
Originally posted by Steve Scheifler (aka Lucky Day):
.... I've asked this before but don't recall an answer. How many have broken one built up from a fresh pumpkin?...

I went through multiple 1.6 rears several years ago. It was extremely frustrating so say the least. All of the busted rears were professionally build. Last year, I finally purchased ALL new parts from MazdaSpeed. A brand new pumpkin and LSD. I've run the same rear now with regular oil changes hard for over a year including the Texas 6 hour enduro and 25 @ Thunderhill last year. Much to my surprise, it is still going strong. I have a Torsen ready to install but have not needed it yet. Just an added data point, the temp probe in the rear regularly exceed the 325 F scale of the gauge in competition. Motul Gear FF seems to work well for me.

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"The problem with Socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money."
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Not to sidetrack the thread, regarding Charle's note about diff temps, what is a max temp to watch out for and start raising your eyebrows?

Steve Scheifler Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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That depends on the oil that you run. The metal can stand the heat, but if your lubricant fails then you've got problems. The other heat risk is to the thread-lock used for internal bolts, which may have been involved in some failures. I think Loctite hi-temp red is rated to 400F and another is rated to 450F.

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quote:
Originally posted by Steve Scheifler (aka Lucky Day):
Give me Jim's, and I can break it. [Wink]

I have faith in you, Steve! [Razz]

But if your point is that how you drive it is as important as how you build it, I won't argue. But again, the solution is obvious.

jim

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I want the other 16 lbs to help a little bit for the 9 lbs of rotating mass. 2275 is a tough weight number to hit, though.

Everyone admits that they are slower, so why not do something about it. Seems like a shame that either you get speed or reliability.

For the record, while experimenting 3 years ago I blew up a 99 torsen that was new from Mazda in just one event. Never even opened it, it may still be sitting under Tim's desk.

I also blew up a comp diff using a brand new ring and pinion. I had the gears cryo'd, but that didn't help.

Knock on wood, I've got 2 seasons on my current one.

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Mike Backus
90 SM white #94

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quote:
Originally posted by Greg Bush:
phantomgrip

These are cheap and easy. Anyone know if they work?

NO NO NO!!!!!!

i've used them in front wheel drive applications and they are terrible.

i know i've asked this before but....

why can't we "lock" the diff. yes i know it's not the fastest but it is cheap to do.

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Marc Cefalo

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quote:
Originally posted by backusm:


I'm also the proud owner of of 95 torsen unit. Does anyone know if you can bolt the 1.6 ring gear onto it.

Maybe the RX7 has a similar diff?

Or, in the extreme, allow the 1.6 an even better gear ratio (4.55?). That should help the hole shot off the corner and address the torque issue.

Some of the other classes make a weight allowance on the car based on what trans or brakes you have. Maybe we could do the same. 99 torsen gets you another 25 lbs off in weight.

the ring gear of a 1.6 is a different size than the 1.8's

the rx7's diff is of the same "family" as the 1.8 miatas as well. no interchangability with the 1.6's


quote:
Originally posted by Casey Z (aka El Guapo):
[QB]I hate stir the pot, but oh well. So we can't run 99 shock hats till April partly due to the fact that Mazda is out of them and everyone should have access to them. QB]

call us we have them!

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Marc Cefalo

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Nevermind. I promised myself I wouldn't get sucked into this kind of rediculous silly season forum crap.

-Kyle

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quote:
Originally posted by D.B. Cutler:
From now on ye shall be named Boom Boom Cutler [duck]

When I rebuilt mine, I first followed the service manual to the letter. Result, Boom ! Then I talked to a fellow SM person who I know knows what he's doing and followed his recommendations. Result, Boom ! Then I talked to a bunch of people both in SM and old timers who've rebuilt many diffs of all types and followed their recommendations. Result, Boom !

There's only a few parts in there. If you don't get the ring and pinion gear lash just right, then the two parts are going to eat each other. Tell me what I'm missing. [/qb]


Willie the Tard Verified Driver
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quote:
Originally posted by D.B. Cutler:
Sorry Jim, I'm not seeing the obvious part.

When I rebuilt mine, I first followed the service manual to the letter. Result, Boom ! Then I talked to a fellow SM person who I know knows what he's doing and followed his recommendations. Result, Boom ! Then I talked to a bunch of people both in SM and old timers who've rebuilt many diffs of all types and followed their recommendations. Result, Boom !

There's only a few parts in there. If you don't get the ring and pinion gear lash just right, then the two parts are going to eat each other. Tell me what I'm missing.

What I hear is that when the R&P go is sometimes takes LSD out of true and then the LSD will always fry the R&P -- check the LSD for run out on the ring gear mount [Frown]

D.B. Cutler Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Year : 1991
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Wille,

I've seen one like that with a frend's LSD. A tooth broke off of the ring gear and bounced around inside. When he checked the LSD housing run out, it was bent.

I can't check mine as I gave up on them and went to the Torsen.

Kyle,

Sorry !! I didn't mean anything personal by my comments. If I've offended you I apologize.

Jim Boemler Verified Driver
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Remember to check lash at four spots around the ring gear, and you'll catch this problem automatically. Of course a separate check without the ring gear could still save you some time.

jim

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Just a clown

   

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