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Author Topic: Insurance. Do you know WHO you're paying for?
Matt Weisberg Verified Driver
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Region: 11
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Year : 91
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"The first order of business was the Insurance report by Pete Lyon. The bottom line here
is that a fairly significant increase in premiums will be required next year due almost
entirely to losses in the rally/solo areas. We continue to have concerns with out of
control vehicles at Solo events particularly at the finish line area. This fact gives great
emphasis to the necessity of Safety Stewards making sure that events are conducted in
complete compliance with our safety requirements, with special emphasis on the
location of finish lines at solo events, and spectator control at all solo and rally events."

Jim Boemler Verified Driver
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Region: NWR, OR
Car #: 30
Year : 1992
Posts: 8523
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What's your point?

jim

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Just a clown

Mark de Regt Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Region: NWR/Oregon; ICSCC
Car #: 70
Year : 1991
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That's ok. I autocross, too.

[Smile]

Tony Brown Verified Driver
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Region: Cincinnati Region
Year : 1990 & 1994
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Matt,
I'm sorry. As I've watched how you've been throwing your vile comments around in the production forum, I guess it was only to be a matter of time for you to puke over here on the SM forum. And I can't imagine that picking on Solo/Rally is going to win you many friends over here, especially given the amount of SM competitors that have come up from the Solo/Rally ranks to compete and participate in club racing either as a driver/crew/course worker/volunteer...
Your divisive comments are embarassing. Please.

As wise man said in a reply to your earlier post:

Go sell your crazy somewhere else, we're all full up here. [Smile]

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Tony Brown
56 SM
Cincinnati Region SCCA

Jerry Cabe Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Year : 1991
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Go Tony! [thumbsup]

You've been up drinking that Capt. Morgan stuff again haven't you?

Jerry

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Just driving SM until the F-1 car is ready.

Steve Scheifler Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Region: STL
Car #: 82
Year : 1991
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Matt, please give us the exact source of the quote (pretty worthless without that, don't you think?)

However, other than that and any issues you folks might have with Matt's prior posts aside, what's the problem with this one???

IF rates are going up and IF we all share in that expense, and IF it can be traced to "preventable" incidents, then I want to know about it and appreciate someone, anyone, posting it.

For the life of me I increasingly DO NOT understand how people react to things.

Steven Burkett Verified Driver
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Region: St. Louis
Car #: 26
Year : 2002
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Matt has been waging a long running Internet campaign against "non-racers" and their mismanagement of the club. This has primarily taken place on the Production forums.

In the past it has primarily been directed at Stewards, BOD members, administrators and the like, but he recently added Soloists in general as one of his key sources of the SCCA club racer's woes.

So for those of us who know that background it is not a very far jump to the conclusion that this is an "anti-soloist" post, rather than a benign notification of insurance issues that effect us all.

Steven

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www.tuxedoparkracing.com

Jim Boemler Verified Driver
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Region: NWR, OR
Car #: 30
Year : 1992
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Reducing costs is fine, but be real careful about getting into the "us versus them" thing with other groups of club members. I've heard it said that "they" (primarily autocrossers) provide most of the funding so "us" can road race! No idea how true it is, but we probably do live in a glass house.

jim

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Just a clown

Mark de Regt Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Region: NWR/Oregon; ICSCC
Car #: 70
Year : 1991
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It's always kind of funny, in a sad sort of way, when someone chooses to cherry-pick a particular little piece of the whole puzzle, and draw some sort of global conclusion from that little piece.

I infer that Matt's intent was to make all of "us" get mad at rally and autocross types, thinking that they are sucking up all of our money.

This, of course, shows a remarkably narrow vision of this little world we inhabit.

For instance, without seeing actual numbers, we have no idea (and certainly cannot conclude from the little snippet that Matt so helpfully supplied) whether we are talking $.05 per year per member, or $400. Personally, I'm inclined to believe the former rather than the latter. Secondly, we have no idea if autocross is a net taker or giver, even after this insurance increase (I'm inclined to believe the latter rather than the former, given how much of our local autox money goes to SCCA, and how little we actually cost them).

So, getting one's panties in a bunch over one little snippet like this is either stupid or dishonest. In either case, I'm not impressed.

Jim Boemler Verified Driver
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Region: NWR, OR
Car #: 30
Year : 1992
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Some of our number seem to take panty-bunching as a personal challenge. Anybody'd think it was winter and we couldn't race instead.

jim

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Just a clown

KelleyHux
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Matt's quote above is from Larry Dent (area 4 director). If you'd like to read the entire posting - here's the link:

http://www.greatlakes-scca.org/system/files/Dec+2007+BoD+meeting+report.pdf

Kelley Huxtable
"PLAY SAFE"
DMVR F&C/Registration/T&S

Lance Snyder Made Donation to Website
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quote:
Originally posted by Steve Scheifler (aka Lucky Day):


However, other than that and any issues you folks might have with Matt's prior posts aside, what's the problem with this one???

Matt has made some nasty/vile posts on the prod forum and on the IT forums. He has a well known history on the interweb of presenting very one sided views of things, attacking officials (and threatening physical harm) and yet very rarely shows his face. He hates workers, officials, solo folks, rally and who knows who else. This is not a post of a concerned member, its Matt tying to stir things up on yet another forum towards whatever goal he is after.

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All this has happened before, and will happen again

Casey Z Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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quote:
Originally posted by KelleyHux:
Matt's quote above is from Larry Dent (area 4 director). If you'd like to read the entire posting - here's the link:

http://www.greatlakes-scca.org/system/files/Dec+2007+BoD+meeting+report.pdf

Without regard to the content in the rest of this thread everyone should read the link above. Talk about a nice candid report. I don't know Larry from adam, but I certianly respect and appreciate his approach in this letter.

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Z Brothers Racing / East Street Auto

Casey Z - 1.6 Kettle
MidDiv National #13

Gibscreen Verified Driver Series Champ
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Region: NASA-SoCal
Car #: 23
Year : 1995
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I've never seen one of Matt's posts before, so I can't comment on the veracity. But that puts me at an advantage. The problem from both sides of this argument is that Matt is posting information, and everyone is simply responding to the fact that Matt posted it.

Even if it's a complete fabrication, we owe it to ourselves and to other members to investigate this matter to see if it's true. If it's not, sure, blast away at Matt. If it is, it's our responsibility as members to do whatever we can to make this sport as safe as possible, and if that reduces insurance premiums and ultimately our cost to participate, so much the better.

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Rob Gibson
RJ Racing
2010 NASA Nationals TTE Champion
2008/2009 WERC Champion
2007 NASA SoCal SM Champion
rjracing.net
Weekend-Racer.com

spdmonkey Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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quote:
Originally posted by Casey Z (aka El Guapo):
[Without regard to the content in the rest of this thread everyone should read the link above. Talk about a nice candid report. I don't know Larry from adam, but I certianly respect and appreciate his approach in this letter. [/QB]

Larry is a straight shooter. As I said in another thread when this Mazda stuff came up I contacted him and he told me everything and immediately wanted to hear Mazda's side. He assured me that he would make sure the issue was addressed and taken care of. I did not vote for him last election, but he sure has done a great job and I'm sorry that this will be his last term on the BoD.

db

Jerry Cabe Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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I'm not too concerned about one person's posting of information that I believe correct on the coming increase in insurance costs. I was previously aware that costs were likely to go up next year due to two incidents (1 Rally, 1 Solo). In both incidents the waivers were properly executed, but both went to litigation. It has been reported that one settled and the other was pending.

Reality is that insurance costs are going to go up as claims are received. The best thing we can do to keep insurance costs down is to minimize claims, and this is accomplished by having safe events. I also don't think it is fair to hold one sector of racing more responsible. Each form of racing should be doing everything they can to have safe events. Club Racing probably has the most number of serious incidents, however, because they are most often held at a dedicated race facility that has barriers separating cars from workers and spectators, the consequences of errant actions typically only results in property damage that most of us accept as a personal risk.

In the interest of "parity".

Jerry

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Just driving SM until the F-1 car is ready.

Qik Nip Verified Driver Made Donation to Website Series Champ
Loose Member '09 & '10 Great Lakes Regional Points Champion

Region: Cincinnati Great Lakes
Car #: 60
Year : 1990
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I dunno. I sort of like to watch a good fight. Anyway I hate crummy written communication. If Matt had actually written something we could comprehend without having to have it explained by those in the know, I'd be modestly inclined to take his side. But since he didn't, I say, let's beat on Matt.

Also, I'm not so sure I really care about the outcome since like Mark, I'm inclined to think any increase is likely in the pennies per entrant/event range versus dollars. BTW, my bride is an autocrosser.
Rick

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Fortune Cookie Racing SM 60
Directions for use: Race, Rumple, Repair ... Repeat!

Steve Scheifler Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Year : 1991
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Rob Gibson did a better job of articulating my thoughts than I did. Except the part about making racing as safe as possible, which would take all the fun out of it. [Smile] But then, I'm a real risk taker, I no longer have sides on my crib and don't even wear a helmet to bed. [Wink]

dkizerian Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Wow, Matt W. I don't know where all the hate you spew comes from..

I for one wouldn't be road racing now if it hadn't been for Solo. I know lots of other people that are the same way. I've heard it called the gateway drug to road racing, and I feel that pretty much sums it up.

I've been following your complaints on the prod board and frankly you really just end up coming across as a curmudgen with little else to do than complain, and no viable solutions.

If you're so hell-bent on boycotting the run-offs, and complaining about the state of things in the SCCA then leave, or step up to the plate and make a difference.

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Dave Kizerian
Utah Region SCCA
Road Race Director

Kent Carter Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
Future Never Has Been

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Year : 1991
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The report from Pete, as quoted by Larry, as excerpted by Matt leaves questions. Matt's conclusions are that he is going to pay more to race because of the problems that have occurred in other types of events. That's not clearly true.

Each type of event pays a different insurance rate. One would assume (and hope) that these are actuarial, risk-based costs. So, chances are, Solo/Rally will see the bulk of the rate increase, but still pay a small amount compared to Club Racing. I think we ALL know that all rates will go up some, even in the absence of claims. Club Racing is surely the riskiest of all forms of motorsport from a liability point of view. Although, if those darned solo people out elsewhere keep running over spectators, that might change.

I don't know Matt from Adam, but based on reading his posts from other fora as well as here, I am not sure that his goal is to be informative and helpful. He is zealous for his cause for sure. Just not sure he's well balanced.

Solo, Rally and Club Racing are just parts of the whole. Rather than trying to spin them off, we should be growing the fold: karts, for example.

What Matt doesn't understand is that, depending on the region, Club Racing may actually be subsidized by Solo. That clearly happened here in this area until the Solo folks rebelled and forced entry fees up. Solo in this area brings in more money than Club Racing and that money goes into the general fund, which is sometimes used to offset losses from Club Races. That doesn't happen much anymore as we have cleaned the Club Racing house and now require that all events pay for themselves. We are finally firing on all cylinders here.

Now if we can just make sure that Topeka is just as responsible as we have become. It's thrilling to hear that Pro will break even this year. Let's lean up the rest of the national folks, too.

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Do I turn my 99 Hard S into a killerfast SM or seek a donor?

jigou Verified Driver
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Region: Des Moines Valley
Car #: 59
Year : 1991
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You're right, to a point, Kent. I think we all hope that the increases will be doled out appropriately.

The problem - and Matt's biggest gripe related to insurance - is that the insurance package as presented in the financial reports from the national office is reported as one lump sum, with no breakdown between Solo and Road Racing (or anything else).

His contention is that Road Racing pays the significant portion of that fee, and that Solo and Rally are paying virtually nothing but getting the benefit of a very good package....and driving the rates up because of their liabilities.

Based on Larry's report, there may be some validity to Matt's post with regard to the liabilities, but unfortunately Matt's harsh delivery often serves to overshadow and draw attention away from what may actually be a valid point.

The fact is that the transparency of SCCA's finances has been an issue for years. Things are much better today than they have been in the past, but there are still WORLDS of room for improvement.

Jarrod

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http://www.plainoldgas.com

smtejas Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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The Solo path is a direct path to the road course for a lot of folks. They are welcome in our Club IMO. I think Solo needs Road Racing and Road Racing needs Solo. It is all part of the mix/chain/path. Who in this room can honestly say they don't know someone that has followed one of the following paths?

:Solo ---> PDE ---> Club Racing

:Solo ---> Club Racing

:Solo ---> PDE ---> Club Racing ---> Pro Racing

:Solo ---> Club Racing ---> Pro Racing

:Solo ---> Pro Racing Schools ---> Racing School Series ---> Pro Racing

:Solo ---> Karting ---> Club Racing

:Solo ---> Karting ---> Club Racing ---> Pro Racing

....you get the picture.

Some folks skip Solo and dive right in and race, but a large chunk of racers dip their toe in Autocross and Solo racing first. If they have a positive experience and feedback through this chain, they can often become lifelong members and our future leaders of this game/business/sport/infection/habit/addiction.

As a liability and risk management issue, a Scarlet Letter should not be plastered on a segment of our club that has a history of nurturing and providing new leaders in this game. Encourage people to start scratching their itch in Solo. Don't discourage.

If combining Solo events with Road Racing could occur more often, I think the parties in each discipline would form a closer bond.

[twocents]

Don

Tony Brown Verified Driver
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quote:
Originally posted by Jerry Cabe:
Go Tony! [thumbsup]

You've been up drinking that Capt. Morgan stuff again haven't you?

Jerry

Well there's just not much else to do out here in NW Arkansas at night! [rolling on floor laughin]

Can't wait 'til spring!

Tony

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Tony Brown
56 SM
Cincinnati Region SCCA

Kent Carter Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
Future Never Has Been

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quote:
.... His contention is that Road Racing pays the significant portion of that fee, and that Solo and Rally are paying virtually nothing but getting the benefit of a very good package....and driving the rates up because of their liabilities.

Based on Larry's report, there may be some validity to Matt's post with regard to the liabilities, but unfortunately Matt's harsh delivery often serves to overshadow and draw attention away from what may actually be a valid point.

The fact is that the transparency of SCCA's finances has been an issue for years. Things are much better today than they have been in the past, but there are still WORLDS of room for improvement.

Jarrod [/QB]

Jarrod, I agree with you about transparency. I understand why the board is so secretive about the details, we are the same way with our regions finances after learning the hard way. We had race track owners look at our 'large' bank balances and say, "Dayum, we need to jack up your track rental fees!!"

I think the autocross folks would get a chuckle out of Matt's assertions that SCCA gives Solo a nice deal. The majority of the autocross done in the US is done OUTSIDE of SCCA sanction and insurance because, simply, it's not the best deal. There are alternative clubs such as SASCA and SPOKES here in Texas that spun off from SCCA to find a friendlier insurance environment, not having to help pay for dangerous crap like Road Racing. Add not having to pay the King of Topeka and it's a pretty attractive proposition. I imagine a lot of autocross organizers are looking at the issue once again, since the King of Topeka's last stupid fiat (not the car, the command).

Don hits the nail on the head. Put me in the group:
solo ---> karting ---> SM ---> F1

The next question, does anybody in this discussion even know what the 2007 rates were? Or read the policy?

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Do I turn my 99 Hard S into a killerfast SM or seek a donor?

   

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