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Author Topic: SMTurbo Mazdaspeed kit
TimBuck Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
I'll believe it when I believe it.

Region: CalClub
Car #: 44
Year : 1992
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I've been tasked with working on the "next big thing" so...

I see and hear a lot of griping about the cost of pro motors, general cost escalations (with small lap-time returns), and mixed-year classes. So here is one solution I came up with. For approximately the cost of a Pro motor we can offer the following kit. The car would run in its own class (or PT/SP until sanctioning bodies accept said class).

SMTurbo Spec Sheet

Start with a 1.6 Spec Miata. All rules unless otherwise stated would remain the same.

Under hood

T04 Turbo kit (turbo, ex manifold, down pipe, tubing, etc.)
Pop off valve (post throttle body) set to 7psi (open, no-cost claiming rule. Plus random swapping between racers by officials)
Intercooler (vertically mounted along radiator)
Radiator (narrower but thicker, cross-flow)
Spec intake (draws through LH turn signal opening, includes a spec air box)
Spec exhaust
Spec ECU (plug and play) with open source mapping (all maps will be posted to official website for competitor access)
MAP, IAT, etc. sensors
Oil cooler (draws through RH turn signal opening)

Chassis

Uses SM 15x7 wheels (13+ lb)
Spec compound 9.5” bias-ply racing slicks (eg. Hoosier 55, Goodyear 600, etc)
Delrin bushings
Modified rear upper arms (to remove excess negative camber)
2001- Miata BIG brakes
1.8 diff with 4.1 ratio (racer sourced, not included in kit)
Springs (stiffer to handle slicks, plus more rear spring)

DAMPERS- Not sure what to do here. I can add Sachs (or another brand) adjustable dampers (which raises the cost of the kit) OR allow revalving of the Bilsteins (with popular rates published to official website) INPUT PLEASE!

Body

Fender flares (rivet-on)
Front splitter (adjustable)**
Rear wing *OR* rear fence-type spoiler (either will be adjustable- still testing which way to go)**
**basically an “into to aero”**


I am sure I missed some stuff...

Input? Suggestions?

I like the idea of an official site for ECU maps, etc.

2nd test tomorrow at Cal Speedway! This car is ridiculously fun!!!

--------------------
Tim Buck

MAZDASPEED Motorsports Development
Mazda North American Operations
phone (800) 435-2508
fax (949) 222-2650

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TimBuck Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
I'll believe it when I believe it.

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BTW- ignore the wing in the picture. It's from a Ralt RT40 Atlantic. The spec one (if we go with a wing) will be much more suited to the car.

--------------------
Tim Buck

MAZDASPEED Motorsports Development
Mazda North American Operations
phone (800) 435-2508
fax (949) 222-2650

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Mark de Regt Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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If this works with a junkyard motor, imagine how it'll work with a pro-built motor. [Wink]

Sounds like it would be a real hoot to drive, though, assuming it's robust.

d mathias Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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This man is having too much fun. I want your job.

B Wilson Verified Driver Series Champ
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We all know what the T stands for...

Tim Spec Miata or Spec Miata Tim

Much bigger wing please [Big Grin]

Woohoo!

-bw

--------------------
Bruce Wilson
2010 Oregon Region Champ
2010 Monte Shelton Driver of the Year
2010 25 Hours of Thunderhill E3 and Under 2 liter Overall Champion
Oregon Region SM Class Advisor

TimBuck Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
I'll believe it when I believe it.

Region: CalClub
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Year : 1992
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quote:
Originally posted by Mark de Regt:
If this works with a junkyard motor, imagine how it'll work with a pro-built motor. [Wink]

Sounds like it would be a real hoot to drive, though, assuming it's robust.

That's why we test. Longevity is a must. As is drivability. Hence the 7psi. We get low temp build-up, a nice flat torque curve, and no lag.

If I'd had another month to prep it would be entered in the 25 Hour!

--------------------
Tim Buck

MAZDASPEED Motorsports Development
Mazda North American Operations
phone (800) 435-2508
fax (949) 222-2650

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TimBuck Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
I'll believe it when I believe it.

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Any input on dampers???

--------------------
Tim Buck

MAZDASPEED Motorsports Development
Mazda North American Operations
phone (800) 435-2508
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Sean Allen Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Koni race? Would work with current Mazdaspeed coil over kit, but offers better valving. Plus, I don't they they are to much more then what SM runs.

JST #16 Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Koni sport single adjustable shocks. Pretty cheap, adjustable rebound and they have a shorter shock body for lowered cars. May not be able to handle the springs rates of the Spec. Miata front springs.

--------------------
Jeff Thompson
SM #16 - Detroit Region
Great Lake Division

JST #16 Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Koni race shocks are double the price of the Koni sports, but have a shorter body and would be able to handle the 700 lb./inch springs.

--------------------
Jeff Thompson
SM #16 - Detroit Region
Great Lake Division

Niklas Falk
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Some questions (as "Region" might indicate pure hypothetical):
How large does the POV need to be to make it effective (and where do you source them, fixed tunable ones, not the bling stuff)?
We might try something similar (12-15psi) in our mixed series to have some restraint on the Turbo machines.

Wouldn't the valving needed for BiasPly slicks be quite different than for Rcomps (But you're used to run with spec whatever so that might no be an issue)?
Revalving the Bilsteins to a new spec valving could be one route, there must be shocks in need of a refurbishment out there.
Get a mule out there with full adjustable set and then try to match that on the shock dyno.

TimBuck Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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We have and use a VERY high en d shock dyno here at Mazda. The Koni Sport is not an option. It will be either revalved Bilsteins (with open valving) or a higher-end race shock. With the new shock hats that are included in the kit (NOT the 99 ones) there is plenty of travel at race height.

Sachs has an option that will add roughly $1600-$1800 dollars.

--------------------
Tim Buck

MAZDASPEED Motorsports Development
Mazda North American Operations
phone (800) 435-2508
fax (949) 222-2650

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Blake Clements Verified Driver Series Champ
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Where's the pictures? [Wink]

--------------------
Blake Clements

PhillipsRacePrep/SP Induction Systems/East Street Racing/MiataCage.com/Carbotech/WBR Graphics

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Sean Allen Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Niklas,

Blow off valves (also called pop off valves) do NOT control boost pressure. A bov is inline with the intake and opens when you release the throttle to releave back pressure in the intake track. Without one you would get what is known as compressor surge.

The wastegate (internal, or external) on the turbo is what controls boost pressure. You adjust this by using a manual boost controller, or through your engine management.

Lance Snyder Made Donation to Website
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quote:
Originally posted by Blake Clements:
Where's the pictures? [Wink]

HERE!

http://forum.specmiata.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?/topic/2/4179.html#000024

--------------------
All this has happened before, and will happen again

Niklas Falk
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quote:
Originally posted by Sean Allen:
Niklas,

Blow off valves (also called pop off valves) do NOT control boost pressure. A bov is inline with the intake and opens when you release the throttle to releave back pressure in the intake track. Without one you would get what is known as compressor surge.

A boost controller, or through the engine management is how you control the boost.

Oh, and I thought that Champcar were using the randomly distributed POVs as a means to cap the boost (spec max pressure).
My understanding is that you can use a fixed tamperproof POV to cap the max possible pressure.
To get the most power you must control the boost to be just under where the POV opens as it will take some time to rebuild the pressure.

The POV I'm thinking about has no vacuum live and no purple horn to make extra noise, just a tightly controlled vent that will quickly release the pressure if it goes beyond the level set by the spring.

Sean Allen Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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What your describing sounds like the wastegate. It opens at a certain pressure to let air by pass the turbo compressor so it can't build any more boost.

Perhaps people are confusing the two terms?

IPRESS Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Tim, keep working on it. I will recruit you some folks if you get it setup. Will be a blast.

--------------------
Mac Spikes
IPRESS Racing
MER
East Street Auto
SAFERACER
Hoosier
Carbotech
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Cresson, Texas
"To hell with you Gen. Sheridan...I 'll take Texas!"

LOREN WALLACE IS MY HERO!

Eau Rouge
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Champcar pop off valves were mounted on the manifold and released excess pressure over the prescribed maximum. This system was scrapped on the DP-01 and the ecu controlled overboost. The cars also had adjustable wastegates.
The wastegate controlled the boost level and the popoff valve released pressure in an overboost situation.
Just as a side note the mechanical popoff valves were locked down during the push-to-pass years.

TimBuck Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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-=sigh=-

This system has a blow off valve, a pop off valve, and a wastegate. See underhood pics in my SMugshots album.

http://smugshots.specmiata.com/main.php?g2_itemId=10061

--------------------
Tim Buck

MAZDASPEED Motorsports Development
Mazda North American Operations
phone (800) 435-2508
fax (949) 222-2650

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Greg Bush Verified Driver
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A few questions....

1) Why is it painted with the same paint they use on the black helicopters? Is that so it can make sound?

2) What is the metal strut that runs from just in front of the left shock mount to the side of the head?

3) What sort of HP is this thing making?

Kent Carter Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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quote:
Originally posted by Niklas Falk:
quote:
Originally posted by Sean Allen:
Niklas,

Blow off valves (also called pop off valves) do NOT control boost pressure. A bov is inline with the intake and opens when you release the throttle to releave back pressure in the intake track. Without one you would get what is known as compressor surge.

A boost controller, or through the engine management is how you control the boost.

Oh, and I thought that Champcar were using the randomly distributed POVs as a means to cap the boost (spec max pressure).
My understanding is that you can use a fixed tamperproof POV to cap the max possible pressure.
To get the most power you must control the boost to be just under where the POV opens as it will take some time to rebuild the pressure.

The POV I'm thinking about has no vacuum live and no purple horn to make extra noise, just a tightly controlled vent that will quickly release the pressure if it goes beyond the level set by the spring.

You are correct. It was not terribly reliable and eventually abandoned.

--------------------
Do I turn my 99 Hard S into a killerfast SM or seek a donor?

Mike C Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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What happened to the heater core? A must if you race where we actually have weather.

MEAT

--------------------
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MEATHEAD Racing
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ALL OPINIONS ON RULES OR SPECIFICATIONS ARE JUST THAT, MY OPINIONS!

TimBuck Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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The car was rattle canned to match the new hood and deck lid!

That bar is to limit engine twist under accel and decel. Just something we are trying.

At 7psi with the current super-safe map it's 140/140. I suspect we'll add about 10/10 when we adjust the map. It's a LOT faster than it sounds!!!

A heater core can definitely be plumbed in. ALTHOUGH I have seen electric defrosters on race cars work pretty darn well too.

We are using that cooling set-up to cool the back cylinders more efficiently. The Miata engines were originally designed for FWD so the Miata coolant routing doesn't take care of the back of the motor very well.

--------------------
Tim Buck

MAZDASPEED Motorsports Development
Mazda North American Operations
phone (800) 435-2508
fax (949) 222-2650

zoom-zoom!

Jfornachon Verified Driver
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This sort of sounds like the greddy kit. My doner had the kit on the car when I bought it. It was a blast. In a way I am sorry that I sold it, but I want to get into SM. At this time I am not even racing and am already tire of all the bitching. Depending on the price I would love to jump on this If it is offered as a kit.

Is the turbo going to be cooled by oil a coolant?
Will we have to change the injectors?
What is the reason for the diff ratio change?

Have a great day,
Jared

38BFAST Verified Driver
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Sure would give a nice home for a lot of 1.6s

--------------------
Ralph Provitz
#38
2008 WHRRI SM Champion
2008 WHRRI Top 10 Overall
V2 Motorsports, Race support, Data Dude

soupy
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A lot of people want to see the '99 out of SM, let's make a new class for them and leave the 1st gen by itself.

--------------------
Charlie Campbell
Race Engineering
carbotech brakes

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Tim,
Is the 140 at the wheels?
When are kits available?
I want one!!!

--------------------
If you can't fix it with a hammer, it's got electrical problems.

Tyler Dahl Verified Driver Series Champ
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Hey Tim, let me know if you want it help testing that!

I like the idea, I think you should stick with the spoiler instead of a wing.

--------------------
Tyler Dahl
Race Engineering
Miatacage.com
Carbotech

PedalFaster Verified Driver
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Any particular reason why you want to make this a class for non-streetable cars (slicks and spring rates to match) as opposed to streetable cars like Spec Miata (DOT tires)?

--------------------
Stephen Hui - '95 SM #86, Northwest / Oregon Region SCCA

Greg Bush Verified Driver
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quote:
Originally posted by PedalFaster:
Any particular reason why you want to make this a class for non-streetable cars (slicks and spring rates to match) as opposed to streetable cars like Spec Miata (DOT tires)?

[Roll Eyes] [Roll Eyes] [Roll Eyes]

Greg Bush Verified Driver
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Why spend the money to make a turbo kit emissions legal when its for a RACE CAR?

planet-miata.com
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why oh why did i just sell my turbo widebody street car!!!!!!!!!!!

it would have been perfect since most of the stuff needed was all ready on it! [Mad]

 -

 -

anyways....

to answer some questions since i've had turbo 1.6's and FP cars on slicks:

the gear ratio needs to be changed to at least a 4:10.

with a 4:30 1.6 diff you'll be shifting more often instead of allowing the car to stay on boost. plus it'll explode it every other week. trust me on this. [Big Grin]

the greddy kit, which this looks like, is cooled by oil only.

at 7 psi there is no need for bigger injectors, especially with a remapped ecu.

my car used the stock ecu with airflow meter at 8 psi and made 178 at the wheels. [yep]

with regards to the suspension...

please keep the bilstiens. when revalved they will be cabable of handling higher rates.

my fathers old FP car kept the SM suspension and just added slicks. it was just fine that way.

please don't go down the road of $$$$$$$ shocks.

many 1.6 racers can easily do this conversion by keeping the costs down and the simplicity up.

my guess on a good setup would be 800lbs front and 400lbs rear springs with revavled bilstiens.

front and rear bar on full stiff.

-1.0 deg front, -1.5 deg rear, 0 toe and 18psi for tires cold.

yep, it's so simple people are bound to screw it up and make it more complicated than it needs to be.

mmmm how's a 1.8 flywheel since the clutch disc has more surface area????? that's what i used.

--------------------
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Marc Cefalo

#00 1996 ITA
#00 ???? SM

planet-miata.com
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quote:
Originally posted by Mike C:
What happened to the heater core? A must if you race where we actually have weather.

MEAT

mike all you need is one of the umbrella girls to take care of the windshield!!! LOL

--------------------
#1 Supplier of New and Used Miata parts
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Marc Cefalo

#00 1996 ITA
#00 ???? SM

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Tim,
That thing looks awesome. That rear spoiler really looks good and probably generates enough downforce without the drag of a big wing. If I had a 1.6 I'd be all over this in a flash. In fact who wants to swap for my 1.8? Keep the costs realistic and this will be a hoot. Of course the MHA (Miata Haters of America) will be all over it as yet another viable place you can race a Miata is born....

db

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quote:
Originally posted by Greg Bush:
[Roll Eyes] [Roll Eyes] [Roll Eyes]

I assume that's a sarcastic response to what you assumed was a sarcastic question, but as someone who drives his Spec Miata to the track and back, and who is friends with others who do the same, I assure you that it was not.

--------------------
Stephen Hui - '95 SM #86, Northwest / Oregon Region SCCA

Greg Bush Verified Driver
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If you are buying a turbo kit, ecu, and all the other fancy stuff, you are firmly into dedicated race car territory.

The "make it streetable" factor is not even on the list of considerations for a machine like this.

Besides, its Tim's (or Mazda's) project, they set the mission requirements.

Do you think all race cars should be streetable? Or just Miatas?

I think this is a great idea, and would draw some people who feel the "Need for Speed", or who want experience with slicks, or want a durable track car with enough power to make track days more bearable on the straights.

And yes, I did drive my car to the track for a while too, so I know that side of the story too.

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quote:
Originally posted by Greg Bush:
If you are buying a turbo kit, ecu, and all the other fancy stuff, you are firmly into dedicated race car territory.

The "make it streetable" factor is not even on the list of considerations for a machine like this.

Not sure why you say think that's the case. I know a lot of street Miatas that have that level of prep -- Flyin' Miata sells turnkey street car kits that give you half again the power that's being discussed for this class.

quote:
Originally posted by Greg Bush:
Besides, its Tim's (or Mazda's) project, they set the mission requirements.

Do you think all race cars should be streetable? Or just Miatas?

Agreed, no, and no, respectively.

You're reading an awful lot into my post. I asked a simple question because I was curious about the answer -- I'm not sure why you're jumping down my throat over it.

--------------------
Stephen Hui - '95 SM #86, Northwest / Oregon Region SCCA

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I thought the greddy kit was td03 turbo not the t04 that tim is talking about. Would the diff gernade even with a torsen? This would just add more cost for change over. I am all for it. I loved my greddy kit and would put one on again in a heart beat. was a blast to drive with bald stock tires. Spun them with out a problem.made it very interesting. With a low power rating the clutch would be fine with an upgraded pressure plate and disk.

What ecu would be used?

Have a great day,
Jared

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A few mentioned the Greddy kit. This turbo kit is a proprietary design by AWR and has zero parts in common with the defunct Greddy kit. Apples to oranges really. The $1300 Greddy's were nowhere near robust enough for track use. This kit is fabbed by a shop that has tons of experience building bullet proof race cars.

Personally, I wouldn't want to see a single compromise in the track performance, consumables cost or reliability made to make it a better street car. That's what SM is for. No offense to those who suggested that but, get a trailer. The average budget needed to buy, build and run one of these will be more than an SM, not less.

It looks like fun. Not 100% how I would do it but the basic formula is right. Agreed on the dampers, the fun to dollar ratio will be very good with simple but properly valved OE style dampers like the Bilsteins everyone already has. While fancy coilovers would be nice, a set of revalved non adjustable Bilsteins from FCM makes a lot more sense from a speed/cost stand point.

Curious what min weight is.

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quote:
Originally posted by Jfornachon:
I thought the greddy kit was td03 turbo not the t04 that tim is talking about. Would the diff gernade even with a torsen?

The diff will be fine. I have a 2000 with a Torsen and a supercharger that I drive daily. I am at 200RWHP on the stock torsen and clutch too, no problems in three years of driving. From my experience 8psi is safe with the stock 99+ drive train. 10psi is safe on stock internals. 12psi is a recipe for something really bad. I think Tim has the right approach on this. Keep the boost reasonable but fun. Aim for 150/150 at 7 or 8 psi. The ACT clutch that we would all run will handle that just fine and so will the torsen.

Only question left is will we have anyone to race with? At these numbers and lets say a 2200 pound weight with some gutting we will see F Prod lap times pretty quick. That sounds like fun...

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Not trying to jump on you, but I just don't see being streetable as a priority for a race car. [scratchchin] I'll try to keep in mind this is your first trip through the PMS season and take it easy... I'll put graemlins in every paragraph and sprinkle in some extra sarcasm too [Wink]

Those kits offer more power, but I'd bet they can't go wheel to wheel for hundreds or thousands of miles between repairs. [Smash]

The stress a street car sees is nowhere close to racing, unless you are lucky enough to be in a high speed chase.... [flamed]

I get that a few people drive SMs to the track. This is just about the only class where you can do that in all of amateur racing. I did it when I was new, my wife did it when we had a smaller trailer. I know the drill. [yep]

It is the exception and not the rule, and it allows you to get in on a lower budget. The vocal minority that do it bring it up so often that it gets annoying. [banghead]

My first impression is this is a conceptual test for "the next big thing". Being the next thing, it should be better, faster, stronger, etc. That all means less street car and more race car [Cool] .

So the 0.5% of people that drive SMs on the street would probably drop to 0.0% in this turbo car. [rockband]

silverblack
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quote:
Originally posted by Casey Z:
quote:
Originally posted by Jfornachon:
[qb] I thought the greddy kit was td03 turbo not the t04 that tim is talking about. Would the diff gernade even with a torsen?

The diff will be fine. I have a 2000 with a Torsen and a supercharger that I drive daily.
Two different diffs here.

The 1.6 diff with 6" ring gear would grenade, the 1.8 diffs with larger ring gear will be fine.

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TillerTech
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HHMMMMM, I mean ZOOM ZOOM!!

I wonder though, does SCCA and NASA need another variant? Would there be more crossover with out the turbo?

I'll be ordering parts for my streeter though.

John

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Sorry for the side-step here but...

In my opinion driving a caged car on the street is terribly dangerous. Unless you drive with a helmet! Can you imagine head+cage in an accident? YUCK!

Back to topic

Marc- in the interest of simplicity and cost-control I am presently leaning toward Bilsteins. I'll be on them tomorrow. And those are the spring rates I'll be testing tomorrow too! (great minds and all...) I'll be trying 8.5" and 9.5" Hoosier 55 tires.

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John- build the car and someone will make room for it! We proved that with SM.

This car will be faster than FP. It's all in the torque!

That said, I am also considering creating an FP kit for the 1.6 for those that would rather go that route. Although it will be more costly.

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quote:
Originally posted by TimBuck:
DAMPERS- Not sure what to do here. I can add Sachs (or another brand) adjustable dampers (which raises the cost of the kit) OR allow revalving of the Bilsteins (with popular rates published to official website) INPUT PLEASE!

Tim-

I could very easily see myself interested in this class in the future. As for shocks, why not use a sealed spec shock rebuilt by Bilstein? Maybe you don't want to handle the sealing process, but the class starts small and easy to do. Or Bilstein West does the rebuild and sends the measured data, you or some other one-man-business applies the seal for a small nominal fee, and voila. Better yet, Shaikh at FatCat does Bilstein rebuilds and is already enjoying SCCA business...

JD

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quote:
Originally posted by silverblack:
]Two different diffs here.

The 1.6 diff with 6" ring gear would grenade, the 1.8 diffs with larger ring gear will be fine.

Got that. Rules as stated by Tim are SM plus his rules. You would have to run the 1.8 Torsen with his configuration as stated. That is legal in SM and many are running it. Plus the 4.1 which makes a huge difference. It would be reliable as he is developing it.

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Good suggestion JD. The reason I mentioned open Bilsteins is that it's cheap to have them revalved, but difficult to tech. Open with posted numbers sounds like a good way to go, still lets people tinker but controls initial cost.

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Great, another flavor of Miata I want to buy/build. I hope you guys can put together a garage-extension kit we can buy too! [Big Grin]

 
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