Region: CalClub
Car #: 44
Year : 1992 Posts: 1364
Status: Offline
posted
I've been tasked with working on the "next big thing" so...
I see and hear a lot of griping about the cost of pro motors, general cost escalations (with small lap-time returns), and mixed-year classes. So here is one solution I came up with. For approximately the cost of a Pro motor we can offer the following kit. The car would run in its own class (or PT/SP until sanctioning bodies accept said class).
SMTurbo Spec Sheet
Start with a 1.6 Spec Miata. All rules unless otherwise stated would remain the same.
Under hood
T04 Turbo kit (turbo, ex manifold, down pipe, tubing, etc.) Pop off valve (post throttle body) set to 7psi (open, no-cost claiming rule. Plus random swapping between racers by officials) Intercooler (vertically mounted along radiator) Radiator (narrower but thicker, cross-flow) Spec intake (draws through LH turn signal opening, includes a spec air box) Spec exhaust Spec ECU (plug and play) with open source mapping (all maps will be posted to official website for competitor access) MAP, IAT, etc. sensors Oil cooler (draws through RH turn signal opening)
Chassis
Uses SM 15x7 wheels (13+ lb) Spec compound 9.5” bias-ply racing slicks (eg. Hoosier 55, Goodyear 600, etc) Delrin bushings Modified rear upper arms (to remove excess negative camber) 2001- Miata BIG brakes 1.8 diff with 4.1 ratio (racer sourced, not included in kit) Springs (stiffer to handle slicks, plus more rear spring)
DAMPERS- Not sure what to do here. I can add Sachs (or another brand) adjustable dampers (which raises the cost of the kit) OR allow revalving of the Bilsteins (with popular rates published to official website) INPUT PLEASE!
Body
Fender flares (rivet-on) Front splitter (adjustable)** Rear wing *OR* rear fence-type spoiler (either will be adjustable- still testing which way to go)** **basically an “into to aero”**
I am sure I missed some stuff...
Input? Suggestions?
I like the idea of an official site for ECU maps, etc.
2nd test tomorrow at Cal Speedway! This car is ridiculously fun!!!
-------------------- Tim Buck
MAZDASPEED Motorsports Development Mazda North American Operations phone (800) 435-2508 fax (949) 222-2650
Region: Oregon
Car #: 68
Year : 91 Posts: 2359
Status: Offline
posted
We all know what the T stands for...
Tim Spec Miata or Spec Miata Tim
Much bigger wing please
Woohoo!
-bw
-------------------- Bruce Wilson 2010 Oregon Region Champ 2010 Monte Shelton Driver of the Year 2010 25 Hours of Thunderhill E3 and Under 2 liter Overall Champion Oregon Region SM Class Advisor
Region: Detroit
Car #: GLD. # 16
Year : 1994 Posts: 125
Status: Offline
posted
Koni sport single adjustable shocks. Pretty cheap, adjustable rebound and they have a shorter shock body for lowered cars. May not be able to handle the springs rates of the Spec. Miata front springs.
-------------------- Jeff Thompson SM #16 - Detroit Region Great Lake Division
Region: Sweden
Car #: 92
Year : 99 Posts: 32
Status: Offline
posted
Some questions (as "Region" might indicate pure hypothetical): How large does the POV need to be to make it effective (and where do you source them, fixed tunable ones, not the bling stuff)? We might try something similar (12-15psi) in our mixed series to have some restraint on the Turbo machines.
Wouldn't the valving needed for BiasPly slicks be quite different than for Rcomps (But you're used to run with spec whatever so that might no be an issue)? Revalving the Bilsteins to a new spec valving could be one route, there must be shocks in need of a refurbishment out there. Get a mule out there with full adjustable set and then try to match that on the shock dyno.
Region: CalClub
Car #: 44
Year : 1992 Posts: 1364
Status: Offline
posted
We have and use a VERY high en d shock dyno here at Mazda. The Koni Sport is not an option. It will be either revalved Bilsteins (with open valving) or a higher-end race shock. With the new shock hats that are included in the kit (NOT the 99 ones) there is plenty of travel at race height.
Sachs has an option that will add roughly $1600-$1800 dollars.
-------------------- Tim Buck
MAZDASPEED Motorsports Development Mazda North American Operations phone (800) 435-2508 fax (949) 222-2650
Region: SFR
Car #: 54!
Year : 90' Posts: 1907
Status: Offline
posted
Niklas,
Blow off valves (also called pop off valves) do NOT control boost pressure. A bov is inline with the intake and opens when you release the throttle to releave back pressure in the intake track. Without one you would get what is known as compressor surge.
The wastegate (internal, or external) on the turbo is what controls boost pressure. You adjust this by using a manual boost controller, or through your engine management.
Region: Sweden
Car #: 92
Year : 99 Posts: 32
Status: Offline
posted
quote:Originally posted by Sean Allen: Niklas,
Blow off valves (also called pop off valves) do NOT control boost pressure. A bov is inline with the intake and opens when you release the throttle to releave back pressure in the intake track. Without one you would get what is known as compressor surge.
A boost controller, or through the engine management is how you control the boost.
Oh, and I thought that Champcar were using the randomly distributed POVs as a means to cap the boost (spec max pressure). My understanding is that you can use a fixed tamperproof POV to cap the max possible pressure. To get the most power you must control the boost to be just under where the POV opens as it will take some time to rebuild the pressure.
The POV I'm thinking about has no vacuum live and no purple horn to make extra noise, just a tightly controlled vent that will quickly release the pressure if it goes beyond the level set by the spring.
Region: SFR
Car #: 54!
Year : 90' Posts: 1907
Status: Offline
posted
What your describing sounds like the wastegate. It opens at a certain pressure to let air by pass the turbo compressor so it can't build any more boost.
Region: MidDiv / SOWDIV
Car #: #39
Year : 99 LS1 Miata Posts: 1756
Status: Offline
posted
Tim, keep working on it. I will recruit you some folks if you get it setup. Will be a blast.
-------------------- Mac Spikes IPRESS Racing MER East Street Auto SAFERACER Hoosier Carbotech MotorSport Ranch Cresson, Texas "To hell with you Gen. Sheridan...I 'll take Texas!"
Champcar pop off valves were mounted on the manifold and released excess pressure over the prescribed maximum. This system was scrapped on the DP-01 and the ecu controlled overboost. The cars also had adjustable wastegates. The wastegate controlled the boost level and the popoff valve released pressure in an overboost situation. Just as a side note the mechanical popoff valves were locked down during the push-to-pass years.
Region: Houston
Car #: 91
Year : 1991 Posts: 2171
Status: Offline
posted
quote:Originally posted by Niklas Falk:
quote:Originally posted by Sean Allen: Niklas,
Blow off valves (also called pop off valves) do NOT control boost pressure. A bov is inline with the intake and opens when you release the throttle to releave back pressure in the intake track. Without one you would get what is known as compressor surge.
A boost controller, or through the engine management is how you control the boost.
Oh, and I thought that Champcar were using the randomly distributed POVs as a means to cap the boost (spec max pressure). My understanding is that you can use a fixed tamperproof POV to cap the max possible pressure. To get the most power you must control the boost to be just under where the POV opens as it will take some time to rebuild the pressure.
The POV I'm thinking about has no vacuum live and no purple horn to make extra noise, just a tightly controlled vent that will quickly release the pressure if it goes beyond the level set by the spring.
You are correct. It was not terribly reliable and eventually abandoned.
-------------------- Do I turn my 99 Hard S into a killerfast SM or seek a donor?
Region: WDCR - 042
Car #: 75
Year : 93 & 95 & 99 Posts: 3727
Status: Offline
posted
What happened to the heater core? A must if you race where we actually have weather.
MEAT
-------------------- Mike Collins MEATHEAD Racing http://www.SHEETZ.com The MEATHEAD Racing 2010 Calendar is up!!!! www.MEATHEADRacing.com SMAC Member WDCR-SCCA SM Drivers Rep. ALL OPINIONS ON RULES OR SPECIFICATIONS ARE JUST THAT, MY OPINIONS!
Region: CalClub
Car #: 44
Year : 1992 Posts: 1364
Status: Offline
posted
The car was rattle canned to match the new hood and deck lid!
That bar is to limit engine twist under accel and decel. Just something we are trying.
At 7psi with the current super-safe map it's 140/140. I suspect we'll add about 10/10 when we adjust the map. It's a LOT faster than it sounds!!!
A heater core can definitely be plumbed in. ALTHOUGH I have seen electric defrosters on race cars work pretty darn well too.
We are using that cooling set-up to cool the back cylinders more efficiently. The Miata engines were originally designed for FWD so the Miata coolant routing doesn't take care of the back of the motor very well.
-------------------- Tim Buck
MAZDASPEED Motorsports Development Mazda North American Operations phone (800) 435-2508 fax (949) 222-2650
Region: socal
Year : 1991 Posts: 396
Status: Offline
posted
This sort of sounds like the greddy kit. My doner had the kit on the car when I bought it. It was a blast. In a way I am sorry that I sold it, but I want to get into SM. At this time I am not even racing and am already tire of all the bitching. Depending on the price I would love to jump on this If it is offered as a kit.
Is the turbo going to be cooled by oil a coolant? Will we have to change the injectors? What is the reason for the diff ratio change?
Region: Northwest
Car #: 86
Year : 1995 Posts: 372
Status: Offline
posted
Any particular reason why you want to make this a class for non-streetable cars (slicks and spring rates to match) as opposed to streetable cars like Spec Miata (DOT tires)?
-------------------- Stephen Hui - '95 SM #86, Northwest / Oregon Region SCCA
Region: NW/OR
Car #: 04
Year : 90 Posts: 1765
Status: Offline
posted
quote:Originally posted by PedalFaster: Any particular reason why you want to make this a class for non-streetable cars (slicks and spring rates to match) as opposed to streetable cars like Spec Miata (DOT tires)?
Region: NEPA
Car #: #00
Year : 20th century Posts: 193
Status: Offline
posted
why oh why did i just sell my turbo widebody street car!!!!!!!!!!!
it would have been perfect since most of the stuff needed was all ready on it!
anyways....
to answer some questions since i've had turbo 1.6's and FP cars on slicks:
the gear ratio needs to be changed to at least a 4:10.
with a 4:30 1.6 diff you'll be shifting more often instead of allowing the car to stay on boost. plus it'll explode it every other week. trust me on this.
the greddy kit, which this looks like, is cooled by oil only.
at 7 psi there is no need for bigger injectors, especially with a remapped ecu.
my car used the stock ecu with airflow meter at 8 psi and made 178 at the wheels.
with regards to the suspension...
please keep the bilstiens. when revalved they will be cabable of handling higher rates.
my fathers old FP car kept the SM suspension and just added slicks. it was just fine that way.
please don't go down the road of $$$$$$$ shocks.
many 1.6 racers can easily do this conversion by keeping the costs down and the simplicity up.
my guess on a good setup would be 800lbs front and 400lbs rear springs with revavled bilstiens.
front and rear bar on full stiff.
-1.0 deg front, -1.5 deg rear, 0 toe and 18psi for tires cold.
yep, it's so simple people are bound to screw it up and make it more complicated than it needs to be.
mmmm how's a 1.8 flywheel since the clutch disc has more surface area????? that's what i used.
Region: OVR
Car #: 08
Year : 95 Posts: 644
Status: Offline
posted
Tim, That thing looks awesome. That rear spoiler really looks good and probably generates enough downforce without the drag of a big wing. If I had a 1.6 I'd be all over this in a flash. In fact who wants to swap for my 1.8? Keep the costs realistic and this will be a hoot. Of course the MHA (Miata Haters of America) will be all over it as yet another viable place you can race a Miata is born....
Region: Northwest
Car #: 86
Year : 1995 Posts: 372
Status: Offline
posted
quote:Originally posted by Greg Bush:
I assume that's a sarcastic response to what you assumed was a sarcastic question, but as someone who drives his Spec Miata to the track and back, and who is friends with others who do the same, I assure you that it was not.
-------------------- Stephen Hui - '95 SM #86, Northwest / Oregon Region SCCA
Region: NW/OR
Car #: 04
Year : 90 Posts: 1765
Status: Offline
posted
If you are buying a turbo kit, ecu, and all the other fancy stuff, you are firmly into dedicated race car territory.
The "make it streetable" factor is not even on the list of considerations for a machine like this.
Besides, its Tim's (or Mazda's) project, they set the mission requirements.
Do you think all race cars should be streetable? Or just Miatas?
I think this is a great idea, and would draw some people who feel the "Need for Speed", or who want experience with slicks, or want a durable track car with enough power to make track days more bearable on the straights.
And yes, I did drive my car to the track for a while too, so I know that side of the story too.
Region: Northwest
Car #: 86
Year : 1995 Posts: 372
Status: Offline
posted
quote:Originally posted by Greg Bush: If you are buying a turbo kit, ecu, and all the other fancy stuff, you are firmly into dedicated race car territory.
The "make it streetable" factor is not even on the list of considerations for a machine like this.
Not sure why you say think that's the case. I know a lot of street Miatas that have that level of prep -- Flyin' Miata sells turnkey street car kits that give you half again the power that's being discussed for this class.
quote:Originally posted by Greg Bush: Besides, its Tim's (or Mazda's) project, they set the mission requirements.
Do you think all race cars should be streetable? Or just Miatas?
Agreed, no, and no, respectively.
You're reading an awful lot into my post. I asked a simple question because I was curious about the answer -- I'm not sure why you're jumping down my throat over it.
-------------------- Stephen Hui - '95 SM #86, Northwest / Oregon Region SCCA
Region: socal
Year : 1991 Posts: 396
Status: Offline
posted
I thought the greddy kit was td03 turbo not the t04 that tim is talking about. Would the diff gernade even with a torsen? This would just add more cost for change over. I am all for it. I loved my greddy kit and would put one on again in a heart beat. was a blast to drive with bald stock tires. Spun them with out a problem.made it very interesting. With a low power rating the clutch would be fine with an upgraded pressure plate and disk.
A few mentioned the Greddy kit. This turbo kit is a proprietary design by AWR and has zero parts in common with the defunct Greddy kit. Apples to oranges really. The $1300 Greddy's were nowhere near robust enough for track use. This kit is fabbed by a shop that has tons of experience building bullet proof race cars.
Personally, I wouldn't want to see a single compromise in the track performance, consumables cost or reliability made to make it a better street car. That's what SM is for. No offense to those who suggested that but, get a trailer. The average budget needed to buy, build and run one of these will be more than an SM, not less.
It looks like fun. Not 100% how I would do it but the basic formula is right. Agreed on the dampers, the fun to dollar ratio will be very good with simple but properly valved OE style dampers like the Bilsteins everyone already has. While fancy coilovers would be nice, a set of revalved non adjustable Bilsteins from FCM makes a lot more sense from a speed/cost stand point.
Region: MidDiv
Car #: 13
Year : 92 Posts: 2873
Status: Offline
posted
quote:Originally posted by Jfornachon: I thought the greddy kit was td03 turbo not the t04 that tim is talking about. Would the diff gernade even with a torsen?
The diff will be fine. I have a 2000 with a Torsen and a supercharger that I drive daily. I am at 200RWHP on the stock torsen and clutch too, no problems in three years of driving. From my experience 8psi is safe with the stock 99+ drive train. 10psi is safe on stock internals. 12psi is a recipe for something really bad. I think Tim has the right approach on this. Keep the boost reasonable but fun. Aim for 150/150 at 7 or 8 psi. The ACT clutch that we would all run will handle that just fine and so will the torsen.
Only question left is will we have anyone to race with? At these numbers and lets say a 2200 pound weight with some gutting we will see F Prod lap times pretty quick. That sounds like fun...
-------------------- ---------------- Z Brothers Racing / East Street Auto
Region: NW/OR
Car #: 04
Year : 90 Posts: 1765
Status: Offline
posted
Not trying to jump on you, but I just don't see being streetable as a priority for a race car. I'll try to keep in mind this is your first trip through the PMS season and take it easy... I'll put graemlins in every paragraph and sprinkle in some extra sarcasm too
Those kits offer more power, but I'd bet they can't go wheel to wheel for hundreds or thousands of miles between repairs.
The stress a street car sees is nowhere close to racing, unless you are lucky enough to be in a high speed chase....
I get that a few people drive SMs to the track. This is just about the only class where you can do that in all of amateur racing. I did it when I was new, my wife did it when we had a smaller trailer. I know the drill.
It is the exception and not the rule, and it allows you to get in on a lower budget. The vocal minority that do it bring it up so often that it gets annoying.
My first impression is this is a conceptual test for "the next big thing". Being the next thing, it should be better, faster, stronger, etc. That all means less street car and more race car .
So the 0.5% of people that drive SMs on the street would probably drop to 0.0% in this turbo car.
quote:Originally posted by Jfornachon: [qb] I thought the greddy kit was td03 turbo not the t04 that tim is talking about. Would the diff gernade even with a torsen?
The diff will be fine. I have a 2000 with a Torsen and a supercharger that I drive daily.
Two different diffs here.
The 1.6 diff with 6" ring gear would grenade, the 1.8 diffs with larger ring gear will be fine.
Region: CalClub
Car #: 44
Year : 1992 Posts: 1364
Status: Offline
posted
Sorry for the side-step here but...
In my opinion driving a caged car on the street is terribly dangerous. Unless you drive with a helmet! Can you imagine head+cage in an accident? YUCK!
Back to topic
Marc- in the interest of simplicity and cost-control I am presently leaning toward Bilsteins. I'll be on them tomorrow. And those are the spring rates I'll be testing tomorrow too! (great minds and all...) I'll be trying 8.5" and 9.5" Hoosier 55 tires.
-------------------- Tim Buck
MAZDASPEED Motorsports Development Mazda North American Operations phone (800) 435-2508 fax (949) 222-2650
Region: SF
Car #: RIP #56
Year : -- Posts: 663
Status: Offline
posted
quote:Originally posted by TimBuck: DAMPERS- Not sure what to do here. I can add Sachs (or another brand) adjustable dampers (which raises the cost of the kit) OR allow revalving of the Bilsteins (with popular rates published to official website) INPUT PLEASE!
Tim-
I could very easily see myself interested in this class in the future. As for shocks, why not use a sealed spec shock rebuilt by Bilstein? Maybe you don't want to handle the sealing process, but the class starts small and easy to do. Or Bilstein West does the rebuild and sends the measured data, you or some other one-man-business applies the seal for a small nominal fee, and voila. Better yet, Shaikh at FatCat does Bilstein rebuilds and is already enjoying SCCA business...
Region: MidDiv
Car #: 13
Year : 92 Posts: 2873
Status: Offline
posted
quote:Originally posted by silverblack: ]Two different diffs here.
The 1.6 diff with 6" ring gear would grenade, the 1.8 diffs with larger ring gear will be fine.
Got that. Rules as stated by Tim are SM plus his rules. You would have to run the 1.8 Torsen with his configuration as stated. That is legal in SM and many are running it. Plus the 4.1 which makes a huge difference. It would be reliable as he is developing it.
-------------------- ---------------- Z Brothers Racing / East Street Auto
Region: CalClub
Car #: 44
Year : 1992 Posts: 1364
Status: Offline
posted
Good suggestion JD. The reason I mentioned open Bilsteins is that it's cheap to have them revalved, but difficult to tech. Open with posted numbers sounds like a good way to go, still lets people tinker but controls initial cost.
-------------------- Tim Buck
MAZDASPEED Motorsports Development Mazda North American Operations phone (800) 435-2508 fax (949) 222-2650
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