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Author Topic: SMTurbo Mazdaspeed kit
Todd Lamb Verified Driver Made Donation to Website Series Champ
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I drove a turbo 1.6 about 8 years ago, it was a blast! A Mazdaspeed kit might be just the ticket.

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SamBarnett Verified Driver
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Having an open shock means that more than likely people will have a different shock for each track. That seems to me it could get expensive fast. A sealed shock with a specific spec would help with cost control, however I'm not sure what the budget goal here is.

Car sounds like it would be a blast to drive though. Tech could get interesting with a turbo and all the cheats for extra boost.


quote:
Originally posted by TimBuck:
Good suggestion JD. The reason I mentioned open Bilsteins is that it's cheap to have them revalved, but difficult to tech. Open with posted numbers sounds like a good way to go, still lets people tinker but controls initial cost.


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Race Engineering - Championship Winning Engines
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JD Morris Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
A slower JD...

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quote:
Originally posted by SamBarnett:
Tech could get interesting with a turbo and all the cheats for extra boost.

You've seen Spec Miata tech. I wouldn't get hopes up that tech would notice a different motor or bigger turbo let alone the small things that could make a big difference! However, if the standalone ECU were simple enough and we could guarantee it didn't have multiple maps or modifiable sensor inputs (i.e. if the ECU is damned simple), then all the cars get on the dyno, post race, and something ("reward" weight, mockery, drinking games, I don't know) ensues...

Maybe if the car is tuned to the absolute limit of stock injectors that would solve the problem.

JD

TillerTech
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Tim,

There a alot of people who are running FP cars with less mods than your test car. Not in national competition but they are still out there. When you get to a full blown national car the ante rises geometrically.

If you do pursue the FP/EP type kits, contact me, I have the bodywork molds and can be very competitive.

One other note on the shocks, the Pro7 class ran a Tokico adjustable unit. They were inexpensive and the adjustability kept the units off the shock dyno. Besides the entertainment value is priceless when your buddy asks you to adjust his shocks and you go the wrong way on your side.

J

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David de Regt Verified Driver
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What fuel is the target? Pump gas? Unleaded race gas? (100/104)? Leaded race gas? (C14/C16)

I think speccing a fuel would be very important with this class. If you think there are fuel wars in SM now, just wait until you get into the turbo game.

Woops, threw in some C16, bumped my base timing by 8 degrees. Hey look, I have 15 more ponies than you now. Runs like shit on idle, but who cares about down there!

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Jfornachon Verified Driver
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quote:
Originally posted by silverblack:
quote:
Originally posted by Casey Z:
quote:
Originally posted by Jfornachon:
[qb] I thought the greddy kit was td03 turbo not the t04 that tim is talking about. Would the diff gernade even with a torsen?

The diff will be fine. I have a 2000 with a Torsen and a supercharger that I drive daily.
Two different diffs here.

The 1.6 diff with 6" ring gear would grenade, the 1.8 diffs with larger ring gear will be fine.

I thought we were allowed to upgrade? I don't see the point in racing with a diff that is going to end up on the track at sometime soon. Hence why alot decided to go torsen.

Have a great day,
Jared

Niklas Falk
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quote:
Originally posted by SamBarnett:
Having an open shock means that more than likely people will have a different shock for each track. That seems to me it could get expensive fast.

Isn't this the case already with the current speced Bilsteins (in some extreme cases)?
With open valving you have the option of revalving, but you don't have to.

It's very problematic to start a new class when there is so much knowledge about SM that gets applied (all the tricks that have been used at some point are seen as "mandatory").

What size of fields do you see as needed to run? Is 25 enough or does it have to be 60+?
How close racing is needed to make it interesting (top10 within .2, .5, 1, 2 seconds/lap)?

If you pick carefully from SM you can probably find races with 60+ where the top20 qualified within .2 secs and top10 finished within 5 seconds.
A new class would probably not get there from the start (or ever), but that doesn't mean it can't be interesting (to both race and watch).

Dainbramage
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Where's the pictures?

This would probably help the resale value of the current 1.6 SM pretty good.

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Joe Self - NASA TX #78 Red/White

Colin MacLean Verified Driver
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quote:
Originally posted by TimBuck:
At 7psi with the current super-safe map it's 140/140. I suspect we'll add about 10/10 when we adjust the map. It's a LOT faster than it sounds!!!

You're leaving a LOT on the table there. An ITA Miata will make north of 140. My 1.6 Miata pre-race-car intercooled at 7psi with a GReddy turbo made 160hp with STOCK ecu! That's a realistic target for your setup and should be considered the minimum hp goal.

The choice of the turbo is a strange one. A T4 is hopelessly over-sized for the 1.6 and horribly inefficient at 7psi. Maybe look instead at a Garrett T2554 or maybe a T2560?

SMT can be a hit, just don't spec too expensive gear!

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Colin MacLean
Flyin' MacLean Motorsports

silverblack
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quote:
Originally posted by Colin MacLean:
You're leaving a LOT on the table there. An ITA Miata will make north of 140. My 1.6 Miata pre-race-car intercooled at 7psi with a GReddy turbo made 160hp with STOCK ecu! That's a realistic target for your setup and should be considered the minimum hp goal.

The choice of the turbo is a strange one. A T4 is hopelessly over-sized for the 1.6 and horribly inefficient at 7psi. Maybe look instead at a Garrett T2554 or maybe a T2560?

SMT can be a hit, just don't spec too expensive gear! [/QB]

+1

Right on every account. I'd even go so far as to spec the much lower cost liquid cooled sleeve bearing T25 to allow racers to rebuild at the track. I have another car with a GT2554, great turbo but non-user serviceable and $850 a piece. The compressor and turbine need to be no larger than 54.3mm, a 60 limited to 7psi is going to be very laggy. The mule might be very litte lage but it will have zero with a 54mm compressor. Look at the compressor map and find a >69% efficiency island at a 1.5 pressure ratio, no 60 is above 63% there. We have a 91 trackday car here with an 02 junkyard engine making north of 150whp on 91 pump that has already gone 4-5 sec under SM lap records.. with no turbo. More than one way to skin a cat:)

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949Racing.com

B Wilson Verified Driver Series Champ
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Tim's homework...

 -


 -
This car ran with the GT group this year. They spent the last year sorting it out and it currently makes about 250hp !!! They had to put a smaller turbo on it this year to get rid of the lag. Probably a bit of a handfull though [Smile]

These guys are up in BC, so they might be hard to get ahold of, but it sounds like you guys are on the right path.

-bw

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Bruce Wilson
2010 Oregon Region Champ
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planet-miata.com
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quote:
Originally posted by TimBuck:
[QB]Sorry for the side-step here but...

In my opinion driving a caged car on the street is terribly dangerous. Unless you drive with a helmet! Can you imagine head+cage in an accident? YUCK!

QB]

agreed... i was in an old SSC protege (1991 Runoffs winner) on the street and rear ended while a passenger. hit my head off the cage and it hurt link no other!

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Marc Cefalo

#00 1996 ITA
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planet-miata.com
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quote:
Originally posted by silverblack:


Curious what min weight is.

mmmm how's 2150 with driver. our FP cars were close to that.

we ran with the hardtops but lexan rear glass and completely gutted 1/4 panels and doors.

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#00 1996 ITA
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soupy
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A bump on the head like that explains a lot Marc.

--------------------
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Brian Cates
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A T4, way too big for 7 psi boost, way too much lag.

I love turbos, I have a 2005 Mazdaspeed, fun car but the turbo lag is by far the worst of any car I have ever driven. Hit the pedal, count to three and wham, you have tons of power, at least for 1000 rpms until you have to shift.

I also have a 2000 Audi S4 with twin T3 turbos and there is asolutely NO turbo lag. But
it's not cheap to maintain and there are a lot of parts to replace and diagnose when something goes wrong.

Yea there a lot of us that would like to go faster, but turbos bring a lot of extra expenses. Great idea for a street or track car, but really don't think it's a great idea for an inexpensive racing class.

How about if Mazda were to simply supply us a new 2.0 liter from a MX-5? Spec the intake, exhaust, ECU etc. 1990 to 2005 allowable, all use the same brakes and rear. Basically a step up class, you can even sell your existing engine to SM drivers.

Don't know all the details or if it would even fit but it sure would be a much better track car than a 1.6l Turbo.

Plus Mazda would be selling the engine which would be a good thing in this depressed auto market.

No adjustable shocks! That alone requires hours and hours of testing to get right per track! Talk about spending money to keep up with the Jones's

Brian Cates

David de Regt Verified Driver
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I think people are looking at this the wrong way. The way it looks, anyway, is that this isn't another entry level racing class, this a significant step up. The fact that it can probably be done for another ~5-6k on top of an SM build is fantastic.

I'm good with no adjustable shocks, it's just yet another small tuning feature. It'll be hard enough to get alignment and aero matched, making the 3 work together seems like a nightmare.

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silverblack
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quote:
Originally posted by Brian Cates:
A T4, way too big for 7 psi boost, way too much lag.

I love turbos, I have a 2005 Mazdaspeed, fun car but the turbo lag is by far the worst of any car I have ever driven. Hit the pedal, count to three and wham, you have tons of power, at least for 1000 rpms until you have to shift.

How about if Mazda were to simply supply us a new 2.0 liter from a MX-5?

Don't know all the details or if it would even fit but it sure would be a much better track car than a 1.6l Turbo.

Brian Cates

The Mazdaspeed MX5 has a T25, smaller than the TO4 on the SMT mule. The reason the MSM has crappy response is a restrictive exhaust, intercooler and intake plumbing. Run aftermarket stuff, fit a standalone ECU and the MSM has very sharp response. You need to call Flyin Miata my friend [Smile] . I have a GT2554R in an NB, which is nearly identical to your MSM. With race exhaust, I/C, standalone etc, it has zero lag at any RPM above about 2400rpm. Instant torque.

The MZR 2.0 is far too tall to fit into a Miata chassis. Besides, 170whp out of a BP is easy and that's plenty.

I saw the mule a few hours ago. Turns out it does have a Greddy manifold with the addition of expansion slots cut in. Greddy went chapter 11 a few months ago so I have to assume that it's not slated for the production kit. A couple other clever ideas and trick details in the build but I'll leave it to Tim to share more.

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949Racing.com

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quote:
Originally posted by soupy:
A bump on the head like that explains a lot Marc.

well... yes it does. that and being surrounded by these cars every sngle day!

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Marc Cefalo

#00 1996 ITA
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planet-miata.com
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quote:
Originally posted by silverblack:
quote:
Originally posted by Brian Cates:
[qb] A T4, way too big for 7 psi boost, way too much lag.

I love turbos, I have a 2005 Mazdaspeed, fun car but the turbo lag is by far the worst of any car I have ever driven. Hit the pedal, count to three and wham, you have tons of power, at least for 1000 rpms until you have to shift.

How about if Mazda were to simply supply us a new 2.0 liter from a MX-5?

Don't know all the details or if it would even fit but it sure would be a much better track car than a 1.6l Turbo.

Brian Cates

The Mazdaspeed MX5 has a T25, smaller than the TO4 on the SMT mule. The reason the MSM has crappy response is a restrictive exhaust, intercooler and intake plumbing. Run aftermarket stuff, fit a standalone ECU and the MSM has very sharp response.

QB]

agreed. our 2004 MSM touring 3 car showcased a good idea from mazda but with poor execution for a street car. there were too many compromises engineered into it, which hindered the car while on the track.

it's one of the reasons most do not swap the motor and electronics into an older car. all the stock parts are horrible. ecu tuning, turbo, intercooler [rolling on floor laughin] [rolling on floor laughin] , factory blow off valve, injectors, etc, etc.

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Marc Cefalo

#00 1996 ITA
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Necio
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Is the MZR engine in the MX5 the same/similar to the MZR-R engine being run in the AMLS P2 Car?

But I digress, I have a 97 Miata and it has the 1.8 motor, does anybody know how much power the turbo kit by Miata Motorsports would increase the 1.8 engine?

Rony

Jfornachon Verified Driver
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It is not intetned to be used on the 1.8. It is for the 1.6.

have a great day,
Jared

P.S. Tim how did the testing go today.

Ken Grammer
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I happen to know someone who will be willing to build a series for this car!

[Big Grin]

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Ken Grammer

Rich Verified Driver
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I also have driven a turbo miata and they're awesome fun.

Dampers - Need to be either shorter or allow better travel-adding shock hats. A big bump under power in an SM isn't a big deal in 3rd and 4th gear, in a car making 200whp it would be more of an issue.

I would also prefer Konis because their support is great but I understand if that's not a good way to go. They already offer a nice short shock for the Miata with rebound adjustment.

I think a lexan fence spoiler is the way to go rather than a wing.

I think Tim is talking about a Mitsu TD04 or similar, not a T4.

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Rich Wiese

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miata_racer
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I like the bilstein SM suspension kit idea.

As for tires and wheels.....rather than use slicks, why not do a 15x8 spec wheel option? TR motorsport (tire rack) or 6UL or Rota all make good 15x8 options. Then speck out a 225/45-15 R comp like the NT-01 or R888. Those should be durable as can be.

I think a logical step up from SM would be SM like prep with a turbo. Slightly bigger wheels, tires and brakes and the added aero. That should be MORE than enough for the car to be fast IMO.

Maybe I'm too budget minded [Smile] I'd like to know as I'll be starting my 92 build in 2010.

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David Hedderick
92 Miata, 01 CRG Heron Plus-YZ125
02 Protege, 08 Mazda 3s

David de Regt Verified Driver
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miata_racer: The R888 isn't nearly as durable as the RA-1, and is a worse tire in most ways. I'd be happy to get away from it for this new class.

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miata_racer
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Then Have the RA-1 as a spec tire. I just don't want another class with slicks. [Frown]

The cost saved by not having to buy new wheels will be a short lived expense savings after a season or two.

DOT R tires are getting faster, and with Aero there is no reason to go to a tire that will cost quite a bit more when a sense of practicality is the premise of the class.

Maybe I'm wrong, but aside from SM, SSB/C, T1/2/3 are there any classes that use DOT R tires in club racing (I know there are regional IT classes as well as SRX7 and a bunch of NASA classes as well)?

We already have GT classes, the formula classes and Prod classes.

Is this a class that has the ambition of being a national class? If so I think DOT tires are the way to go. But make sure a Spec R tire is the choice. The A6 and R6 ain't that much cheaper than the slicks [Wink] And at close to a grand a set for 15s I can see $10,000 as a realistic # for a season of about 8 races with practice and qualifying sessions. And a test and tune here and there.

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David Hedderick
92 Miata, 01 CRG Heron Plus-YZ125
02 Protege, 08 Mazda 3s

David de Regt Verified Driver
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I already budget 1000$/race weekend for SM. Adding a couple hundred to that for a weekend really wouldn't be awful.

What about using V710s?

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soupy
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Miata-racer,,, This is not meant to be a derivative of SM, get SM out of your head. This is also not meant to be an entry level form of racing,
Tim, would this be correct?
The R6 tire is not $1000 a set and time will tell about the 888.

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Charlie Campbell
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miata_racer
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V710s would work great. They make a 225/50-15 now.

So this class has nothing to do with SM then? I thought that was the whole point.....give the now outgunned 90-93 SM cars a place to run again.


Maybe this class will never happen, but I at least like the idea of a mazda comp turbo kit

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David Hedderick
92 Miata, 01 CRG Heron Plus-YZ125
02 Protege, 08 Mazda 3s

spdmonkey Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Go back to what Tim said in the beginning....The next big thing. Not the place for the 1.6 cars to go next. Slicks all the way here. I don't think this is meant to be the next jump from SM.
db

Doug Fambrough Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Tim, just found this thread.

I would be very interested in this class if you can make it happen, and would convert my old 1.6 car to run in it.

Per your questions, Id want everything associated with the air flow path to be spec parts, as well as a spec sealed ECU (Id rather not mess around with different mappings).
Id also support a spec data acquisition that could be easily checked in post-race tech. I know this increases cost but Id be paying for data acquisition anyway.

Given the pro motor experience in SM, and your opportunity to start fresh, Id go with a sealed engine from the get go.

Suspension, wheels, tires, etc., Id suggest going with a more liberal ruleset than SM, and letting this be a point where competitors can legally improve their cars. I wouldnt want an entirely open ruleset, but would like to see more opportunity to legally gain an advantage in set-up.

I built (or rather had built) an MSM track car for non-competition events, so Id also love to see you create a class where I could just convert it over. Below is a link to a post describing the car, although its been more fully developed since this post:

http://forums.audiworld.com/racing/msgs/50315.phtml

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Doug Fambrough

Viet-Tam Luu
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Sounds like a lot of fun to drive but...

quote:
I see and hear a lot of griping about the cost of pro motors, general cost escalations
... unless everything is spec'ed and sealed (as much as it's possible to do so) I can only see this program making costs stratospherically higher.

--------------------
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hoverducky Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Tim,

I like this idea a lot.

Personally I think making it as easy and inexpensive as possible to convert from a Spec Miata is the way to go. It keeps the spares the same for those of us who would consider adding an SMTurbo as a second car, too.

Revalved Bilsteins sound good to me. I think I would prefer a spec valving, though I understand that tech would be more difficult than with open valving.

Would there be a concern about failing front hubs more often with the big slicks?

Here in the SF region they are looking at ways to increase car counts in Group 3 (GT1, GT2, GT3, GTA, GTL, EP, SP, AS, T1). Could be a good fit.

Scott

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Hate to be a party pooper, I guess that's a word [Big Grin] , but I don't see the SCCA nor NASA creating another class. Already have too many.

A turbo Miata could probably run in NASA's Performance Touring or Supertouring classes to start out. If there is enough interest and ultimately car counts then possibly a class of its own.

But at least it gives everyone something to ponder over the winter months.

Ok let's just put a 13-B Wankel in a 1.6 and call it a day. [Wink]

Better yet, Flyin Miata sells a Chevy V-8 LS-1,etc conversion kit that uses a Cadillac diff but with 4 lug axles that will fit our existing wheels. You can buy a sealed crate engine for around $4000 that will last for 4 plus seasons.
[rolling on floor laughin]

Rich Verified Driver
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quote:
Originally posted by Brian Cates:


Better yet, Flyin Miata sells a Chevy V-8 LS-1,etc conversion kit that uses a Cadillac diff but with 4 lug axles that will fit our existing wheels. You can buy a sealed crate engine for around $4000 that will last for 4 plus seasons.
[rolling on floor laughin]

I've always thought this would be a fun class. All-aluminum LS1's with a diff and trans that can handle the torque are only about 150 pounds heavier than the stock iron-block engine with trans/diff added in.

Wheel hop at 100 mph! Yay!

--------------------
Rich Wiese

Spec Wrecker Ford

hoverducky Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Well, the SF Region of the SCCA is toying with the idea of a Spec Boxster class to get Group 3 car counts up. It would probably be a fun car but I've heard that Porsche parts come pretty dear...

Scott

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Why the narrow 7" wheels? Use wider 8" or 9" wheels to optimize tire choices and economics. Slicks sound expensive. Why not use DOT rubber? Less turbo lag is more fun. What is the target cost for the conversion? If we can take 6 seconds off of SM times in a car with low running costs, I'd really be tempted to build one. I'd love to keep up with my spec 911 buddies.

-juan

--------------------
www.ArtOfRoadRacing.com Race Craft Clinic - Thunderhill - 30 Jan 2011

David de Regt Verified Driver
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If you go with more than 7" wheels (and tires to match) you need to get fender flares and do body work. I assume that's what's being minimized here with that choice, which I support.

I think fundamentally people are confusing this with another low-budget SM-related class, which isn't really what it's sounding like Tim's trying to do. Not that this is explicitly high-budget -- to the contrary, this seems like the lowest-budget path into higher end racing (aero, slicks, etc.) -- but it really doesn't seem like this is made to be a 3k conversion from SM into SM2009 w/Turbos. It's a new class, a new idea, and a new level of racing.

--------------------
My Spec Miata Build Sheet - Hope people find it useful
 -

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The specs tim propsed already include fender flares, rivet-on ones.

The PRC GTS 911 spec class runs 5-6 seconds faster than an SM and specs RA1's, 225/50-16 and 245/45-16. They are fun and economical to run.

--------------------
www.ArtOfRoadRacing.com Race Craft Clinic - Thunderhill - 30 Jan 2011

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At Cal Speedway I was consistently 8 seconds per lap faster than I was last time in a 1.6 SM.

I was taking it pretty easy, learning the car, etc.

BTW: That decrease did NOT come on the oval. With the big slicks the car never got over 121 and actually slowed a bit in NASCAR 1 and 2. (note: no draft)

--------------------
Tim Buck

MAZDASPEED Motorsports Development
Mazda North American Operations
phone (800) 435-2508
fax (949) 222-2650

zoom-zoom!

Juan Pineda Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Tim,

I was comparing vs the cheater SM's we run up here in SFR. [Smile] Seriously, I was just pointing out that R compound can be quick, even if not as quick as slicks. What are the considerations for slicks vs R? I've never run slicks, so I don't know. Obviously economics are high on the priority list for many these days.

Also, why the narrow rims? The choice is not immediately obvious. I know of one race series that selected a rim narrower than optimum because of many drivers already had them, and is now suffering for it. I would favor rims selected looking forward, and favoring larger choice of tires and better tire economics.

I'd appreciate hearing about the considerations here.

-juan

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www.ArtOfRoadRacing.com Race Craft Clinic - Thunderhill - 30 Jan 2011

silverblack
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quote:
Originally posted by TimBuck:
At Cal Speedway I was consistently 8 seconds per lap faster than I was last time in a 1.6 SM.

I was taking it pretty easy, learning the car, etc.

BTW: That decrease did NOT come on the oval. With the big slicks the car never got over 121 and actually slowed a bit in NASCAR 1 and 2. (note: no draft)

That would be about 1:56 then Tim? I'm anxious to see how my project car compares the mule. I think I managed high 1:58~low 1:59 Sunday before my throttle shaft broke (again).

--------------------
949Racing.com

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Juan,

I agree. If the "kit" has flared fenders, an 8" wheel at the minimum should be required. Also, for those in doubt. You can run a 15x8 wheel with 225/45 tires on a stock miata with only rolled fenders. You do NOT need flares to run an 8" wheel. You can even run a 9" wheel with out flares...

15x9 225/45 ra-1's

 -

oops sorry no edit made Jim

[ 11-27-2008, 10:31 AM: Message edited by: Drago ]

TimBuck Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Both FP and EP are 15x7 with 8.5"-9.5" slicks. Plus everyone already has the wheels.

--------------------
Tim Buck

MAZDASPEED Motorsports Development
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phone (800) 435-2508
fax (949) 222-2650

zoom-zoom!

Rich Verified Driver
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quote:
Originally posted by TimBuck:
Both FP and EP are 15x7 with 8.5"-9.5" slicks. Plus everyone already has the wheels.

Yeah, no reason to get bigger wheels IMO.

I'm guessing if the car's only making 150 whp or so that the torque must be way up in the 160's to pull the lap times down that much? I understand you weren't faster on the oval but the in-between-corners acceleration has to be a ton better.

--------------------
Rich Wiese

Spec Wrecker Ford

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Yup, but no big hit like a high-boost car would have. It was pretty linear.

TONS of grip and TONS of brake!!!

--------------------
Tim Buck

MAZDASPEED Motorsports Development
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Tim

I like the idea of this class and have been contemplating doing a home built system due to all of the bitching going on in sm. I saw the spec that you posted in the class. I would prefer to support Mazda since they help us out.

I am wondering what would be included in the kit and how much? I am shure you are still testing the kit, but what is your projected release date?

Have a great day,
Jared

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I persoally like the looks of the wing, but I think the fence type may be better. A lot of us have removed the trunk lock and installed hood pins and I cant see a way the wing would allow them to be used.

Have a great day,
Jared

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the 23.0 x 9.5-15 Hoosier is a $213 tire. Here is the "problem" I see with slicks. They are fast for about 1/2 their life then fall off dramatically.

a 225/45-15 runs $140-162 a tire depending on if you get a NT-01R, RA-1 or R888. A Hoosier R6 in the same price is $210 and the 275/35-15 is $244 a tire. Why bring the 275 up? They fit on 9s and are a damn fast tire. Do they last longer than the slick or grip more? Do testing and find out.

My point was tires are a disposable item. The more they cost and the quicker they heat cycle out the more each season will cost. I don't see the problem with buying new wheels that only have to be purchased ONCE vs. tires that have to be bought each weekend.

Here's some math....

A set of wheels and tires (15x8 6ULs and 225/45-15 RA1s) costs $1224. Lets say they last 3 weekends and the slicks last 2. Just for kicks....

SO the Hoosier costs $426 per weekend and the Toyos are 408 per weekend. Not much of a difference except......you can buy a set of wheels AND TIRES for the cost of just a set of the slick tires.

SO the "savings" by sticking with the 15x7 isn't a valid argument to me. If the class wants to run the slicks because they like them, they look cool and they are stink fast. Then just come out and say it.

But consider the savings ov the DOT tires. Do a back to back comparison between the two on the test mule. Do some datalogging on the Hoosiers and see how many weekends it takes for the G's to fall off. Same with the DOT R's


quote:
Originally posted by TimBuck:
Both FP and EP are 15x7 with 8.5"-9.5" slicks. Plus everyone already has the wheels.


--------------------
David Hedderick
92 Miata, 01 CRG Heron Plus-YZ125
02 Protege, 08 Mazda 3s

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P.S. - I still think the class is a neat concept, but I want all viable options to be considered.

Tim.....I still think you're great and appreciate all the help you have given me over the last 12 years [Smile]

--------------------
David Hedderick
92 Miata, 01 CRG Heron Plus-YZ125
02 Protege, 08 Mazda 3s

 
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