Region: SFR
Car #: 70
Year : 1990 Posts: 768
Status: Offline
posted
quote:Originally posted by Juan Pineda: So while we'd be waiting to get the car count up, is there an SCCA class this car could fit, and would it be competitive there?
-Juan
In SF Region we could run it in ITE but we must use DOT tires not slicks.
I suppose it's all relative. Tony Riverra was running times within a tenth of the lap record on dead bald crap RA1s a week ago at MSR-Houston.
So you know my reasoning......what is your reason for wanting to run slicks? Even if they both fall off at half life the DOTs are still cheaper.
I've given my reason but have yet to see one good one from you I enjoy debating as much as the next guy but I'm the only one coming up with data here. Where is yours?
quote:Originally posted by David de Regt: miata_racer: By your definition, why not run Azenis? They're cheaper than race tires and last longer.
Also, you mention how slicks fall off after half their life... So do RA-1s. So do R888s. So do 710s. All race rubber does, that's just how it works.
Region: San Francisco
Car #: 34
Year : 1992 Posts: 2279
Status: Offline
posted
quote:Originally posted by NV Racer: In SF Region we could run it in ITE but we must use DOT tires not slicks.
Dennis
You'd have to run 2:02 at TH to keep up with Bobcat. I don't suppose that would be possible on SM tires with the Turbo? The S2000 is running 58's. What weight?
Region: SFR
Car #: 70
Year : 1990 Posts: 768
Status: Offline
posted
quote:Originally posted by Juan Pineda:
quote:Originally posted by NV Racer: In SF Region we could run it in ITE but we must use DOT tires not slicks.
Dennis
You'd have to run 2:02 at TH to keep up with Bobcat. I don't suppose that would be possible on SM tires with the Turbo? The S2000 is running 58's. What weight?
-Juan
There are no weight restrictions or much of any other restrictions here are the rules.
Per SFR Website: ITE - Improved Touring E
The Only IT rules that apply to ITE are those listed below.
1. Any tub chassis production vehicle running with DOT tires.
2. Preparation Rules: International sedans may modify the floor pan/rocker panel sections.
3. Cars must meet or exceed the Showroom Stock or IT safety requirements of the current General Competition Regulations.
Region: Southern California
Car #: ???
Year : 1994 Posts: 30
Status: Offline
posted
quote:Originally posted by David de Regt: miata_racer: By your definition, why not run Azenis? They're cheaper than race tires and last longer.
Also, you mention how slicks fall off after half their life... So do RA-1s. So do R888s. So do 710s. All race rubber does, that's just how it works.
I'd rather replace my tires after 4 track weekends instead of after each track weekend. It's an operational cost issue.
Besides, I'm not convinced that race slicks give you the "bang-for-the-buck" that Miata owners expect. There's a reason most of us drive Miatas and not Porsches or BMWs - cost. If I didn't care about operational costs, I'd be driving a prepped BMW!
-------------------- "It is not the mountain we conquer, but ourselves" - Sir Edmond Hilary
Region: CalClub
Car #: 44
Year : 1992 Posts: 1364
Status: Offline
posted
Yeah! What he said!
And c'mon, ban dihydrogen monoxide??? I use it in all of my pro motors! I can unequivocally say I would be significantly slow without it. (Believe it or not, it actually helps my mountain biking!) Talk about whining... sheesh! Get over it and use it yourself. We even sell the good stuff at Mazda. It's only $12 per gallon and will not only make your car faster but the motor will last longer as well.
-------------------- Tim Buck
MAZDASPEED Motorsports Development Mazda North American Operations phone (800) 435-2508 fax (949) 222-2650
Region: Oregon
Car #: 68
Year : 91 Posts: 2359
Status: Offline
posted
Definitely good for the class and club. There's two sides to every story. Banning DHMO would especially be bad for those of us who race on a budget!
-bw
-------------------- Bruce Wilson 2010 Oregon Region Champ 2010 Monte Shelton Driver of the Year 2010 25 Hours of Thunderhill E3 and Under 2 liter Overall Champion Oregon Region SM Class Advisor
Region: kc
Car #: 20
Year : 92 Posts: 1801
Status: Offline
posted
My name is Jim and I'm a dihydrogen Monoxide addict. I have to have it. It's been 2 hours and 10 minutes since I've had any, but I can't hold out any longer. I went to a meeting, but they even had some there. wheel
Region: San Francisco
Car #: 34
Year : 1992 Posts: 2279
Status: Offline
posted
quote:Originally posted by Andy Friese: P.S. Boris Said could beat you WITHOUT A TURBO. Have you considered taking up golf?
Well if you're driving the 25 next weekend, you will have a chance to try to outdo Boris. And I don't mean wannabe posers changing their profile names. Unfortunately for your chances, Boris will be driving some kind of Mustang beast, so you're going to have to put the biggest baddest tires on your Miata, turn the boost up, and fill it up with rocket fuel if you want get past him.
Region: Oregon
Car #: 68
Year : 91 Posts: 2359
Status: Offline
posted
Boris will be there too? Cool
-b
-------------------- Bruce Wilson 2010 Oregon Region Champ 2010 Monte Shelton Driver of the Year 2010 25 Hours of Thunderhill E3 and Under 2 liter Overall Champion Oregon Region SM Class Advisor
Region: NASA Southwest
Car #: 77
Year : 1996 Posts: 147
Status: Offline
posted
Why are we excluding the 1.8 motors? Running the same injectors should stop the power at a certain level, say everyone runs 1.8 injectors. Keep the manifold log, and keep the turbo cheap and track rebuildable. Log manifold from Bell Engineering, t25 sourced anywhere, intercooler open, exhaust open, megasquirt for em, shared maps.
These kind of cars have been built over and over again. I have a 04 Mazdaspeed Miata, with a GT28 and goodies. It is alot of fun and makes a great hpde car. I don't come to specmiata.com or mazdaspeed for my info or kits though. I go to the guys that do this daily for years, Bell, Flying M, 949, Fat K, DIY Autotune etc. Lets get these guys involved and posting and make it a great, cheap, durable car right off the bat! Let them hash out what they would build if they were to convert a spec miata to a turbo spec miata.....It would be really interesting and informative.
I have one thought though.....Why spec all this turbo stuff when you can just cap the power with the injector sizing? I think leaving most of this crap open would let people ebay, craigslist their parts and would get more grassroots guys involved. Plus lots of turbo miata's could be picked up cheap, injectors swapped, retuned, and placed on the track.
Jake
-------------------- "This sticker is dangerous and inconvenient, but I do love Fig Newtons!"
quote:Originally posted by Jfornachon: We would have a spec injector. It is the ones that are on the cars right now. that is a very cheap to cap the power. That solves that.
Have a great day, Jared
Until someone messes with the fuel pump. There are guys running upwards of 100psi with stock 1.6 injectors in turbo motors. You'd think a pintle type injector would go static at that pressure but it works.
Region: NWR
Car #: 47/479
Year : 1992 Posts: 418
Status: Offline
posted
What the heck are you talking about? Of course an injector caps the max power, but who cares about max power? I care about the significantly lower turbo lag 1.8s would have, as well as the fatter torque curve through the band. They might have to tune down the very peak of their powerband just to keep it within the injector threshold, so their max power #s would be similar to the 1.6s, but shoving X psi at a 1.8 makes (1.8/1.6)x as much power as shoving X psi at a 1.6, with more advantages due to the displacement...
Region: NW/OR
Car #: 04
Year : 90 Posts: 1765
Status: Offline
posted
quote:Originally posted by Jacob Groves: I have one thought though.....Why spec all this turbo stuff when you can just cap the power with the injector sizing? I think leaving most of this crap open would let people ebay, craigslist their parts and would get more grassroots guys involved. Plus lots of turbo miata's could be picked up cheap, injectors swapped, retuned, and placed on the track.
Jake
You and I may use the open rules to go cheap, but thats a recipe for the big spender to dominate.
Region: NW/OR
Car #: 04
Year : 90 Posts: 1765
Status: Offline
posted
quote:Originally posted by Jacob Groves: I don't come to specmiata.com or mazdaspeed for my info or kits though. I go to the guys that do this daily for years, Bell, Flying M, 949, Fat K, DIY Autotune etc. Lets get these guys involved and posting and make it a great, cheap, durable car right off the bat! Let them hash out what they would build if they were to convert a spec miata to a turbo spec miata.....It would be really interesting and informative. Jake
I'm pretty sure they have some expert help. Guys that are getting paid, not free internet help.
Do you really think they are putting this thing together with stuff they found on the floor of the Mazdaspeed store?
I'd give Tim and Mazdaspeed more credit than that.....
Region: Mohud
Car #: 98
Year : 1999 Posts: 915
Status: Offline
posted
What Greg said +1 +1 +1
Come on Jacob, these guys have been doing this for a long time. They need to be given a LOT more credit than that. Not only that but do you really think they only work with Miatas all day long. And I'm sure they know a lot more people with the right answers than we all can imagine. + You owe it to Mazdaspeed to buy as much stuff as you can from them. After all do you see all these other companys supporting this series?
I will say this again. If you want a cheap series to run in then stay with SM. What Tim is building is not intended to be entry level like SM. Jacob, what do you want next? Change the rules for GT and make it entry level too.
-------------------- Charlie Campbell Race Engineering carbotech brakes
Region: socal
Year : 1991 Posts: 396
Status: Offline
posted
I went over to miata.net and saw the another thread about stm. They are over there bitching about the same thing jake is. I don't know if he is a crossover, but This is just what I read.
Region: SFR
Car #: 11,33
Year : 99,90 Posts: 1528
Status: Offline
posted
In SM, we fight over 2HP, in the turbo Miata world, I would not be surprised to see differences of 20+HP. You will need to SPEC EVERYTHING and then some.
quote:Originally posted by David de Regt: [QB] What the heck are you talking about? Of course an injector caps the max power, but who cares about max power?
Fuel pressure, not boost pressure. Capping injector size will only create new ways to raise fuel pressure to match the additional CFM and boost the engine will see.
Region: NWR
Car #: 47/479
Year : 1992 Posts: 418
Status: Offline
posted
Well, to some extent, if you make sure (via any of several ways) that the ECU fuel/timing map is spec and that the boost pressure is spec, then you can add as much fuel as you want. With any smart turbo tune, adding more fuel will only lose power, so it should eliminate any urge to bump injector pressure.
Region: NASA Southwest
Car #: 77
Year : 1996 Posts: 147
Status: Offline
posted
I think you guys are over thinking this. If you spec the engine managment, so you can over ride tunes in tech, then you can forget about everything else. The approved tune could be downloaded from any number of sites and downloaded by the end user. Keep the tune from being on the rich side to discourage and raising of the boost and your golden. If someone wants to cheat by raising the boost they will also have more of a chance of blowing their motor. If someone is suspect of cheating download his tune for later review and load the approved tune.
-------------------- "This sticker is dangerous and inconvenient, but I do love Fig Newtons!"
Steven Holloway
Blue Eyes, Aquarius, hates being squeezed to the grass in SowDiv!
Region: Lonestar
Car #: 97
Year : 91 Posts: 740
Status: Offline
posted
Hey, aren't you the same guy that lobbied for sealed crate motors for DAYS in another thread? Pick a side and stick with it!!!
-------------------- If you can't fix it with a hammer, it's got electrical problems.
quote:Originally posted by David de Regt: Well, to some extent, if you make sure (via any of several ways) that the ECU fuel/timing map is spec and that the boost pressure is spec, then you can add as much fuel as you want. With any smart turbo tune, adding more fuel will only lose power, so it should eliminate any urge to bump injector pressure.
Not my point. My point is that a spec injector will not cap power below. You would also need to spec everything that affects fuel pressure and it's measurement.
**********
Some folks are using GPS based telemetry to monitor actual performance on track. This is how it is, to create parity you either have:
1. Sealed everything 2. GPS based telemetry logging and a handicapping system (weight) 3. Claimer rule 4. "Lemons" style officiating 5. None of the above, instead an expensive and byzantine tech and inspection infrastructure.
Vehicle preparation rules don't make for parity. Monitoring does. Even sealed motors will be tampered with so you never can completely get away from cheating or big $ beating small $.
Commenting on what Ara said above, the power diff in SM is important at 2-4hp because 2-4 hp is close to 2-4% of the total power of the car. Now say that SMT will be making 200hp and we assume that the same two "all out" efforts are are measured. 2-4 hp will have 50% smaller effect and thus the cost/advantage ratio makes the high cost/low gain mods unattractive. If a 2-4% range is acceptable in SM will the same be OK for SMT with a 4-8 HP range at the front of the grid? I think the the effective spread form the "spend a lots" to the "spend a littles" will be smaller.
On tires I think using the DOT 225/50 or45x15's is the way to go. They fit fine on the rims we have and are cheap and plentiful. I raced on those cantilevered slicks in prod and I can say first hand they are a pain in the ASS!
quote:Originally posted by BERG Racer: On tires I think using the DOT 225/50 or45x15's is the way to go.
You don't want to run 225's on 7" rims. That's too narrow and will be suboptimal for the sidewall configuration.
-Juan
Agreed it's not ideal but it works. I've tested many different 15" configurations and combos and the extra contact patch helps when you have more power. Wider wheels are always better of course. To make reusing all the existing 15x7's, simply make tires size open as long as it fits those wheels. What'll make the cars a bunch faster is reducing aero drag, weight and giving them only a modest boost in power.
There is a fair amount of weight that can be removed that has no adverse effect on safety. Taking weight out is free up to a point. Basic aero stuff like an airdam to shunt the air around the front tires, a little ducktail spoiler and even some simple flat panels for the underbody are cheap. My thinking is less is more. As sexy as those big flares are, stock fenders will fit 225/45's easily, have less drag and best of all, are free.
Region: NASA Southwest
Car #: 77
Year : 1996 Posts: 147
Status: Offline
posted
quote:Originally posted by silverblack:
quote:Originally posted by Juan Pineda:
quote:Originally posted by BERG Racer: On tires I think using the DOT 225/50 or45x15's is the way to go.
You don't want to run 225's on 7" rims. That's too narrow and will be suboptimal for the sidewall configuration.
-Juan
Agreed it's not ideal but it works. I've tested many different 15" configurations and combos and the extra contact patch helps when you have more power. Wider wheels are always better of course. To make reusing all the existing 15x7's, simply make tires size open as long as it fits those wheels. What'll make the cars a bunch faster is reducing aero drag, weight and giving them only a modest boost in power.
There is a fair amount of weight that can be removed that has no adverse effect on safety. Taking weight out is free up to a point. Basic aero stuff like an airdam to shunt the air around the front tires, a little ducktail spoiler and even some simple flat panels for the underbody are cheap. My thinking is less is more. As sexy as those big flares are, stock fenders will fit 225/45's easily, have less drag and best of all, are free.
Emilio, as long as you keep posting I'll shut up. I think we are on the same page. I'd love to hear your idea of what this class should look like as you probably have the most turbo track miata experience in the country. PM me on the other board if you don't want to post it hear. Love your wheels and new project miata....Jake(jacob300zx)
-------------------- "This sticker is dangerous and inconvenient, but I do love Fig Newtons!"
quote:Originally posted by Jacob Groves: Emilio, as long as you keep posting I'll shut up. I think we are on the same page. I'd love to hear your idea of what this class should look like as you probably have the most turbo track miata experience in the country. PM me on the other board if you don't want to post it hear. Love your wheels and new project miata....Jake(jacob300zx)
SCCA and Mazda have specific goals and I think they're basically on the right track. Everyone has their own idea of how to build the cars so rather than deconstruct all the hard work AWR and Tim have done, I think it's more productive to for us potential owners to maybe suggest tweaks for what they already have. These comments should all come from first hand personal experience and not something we read on a forums somewhere though
Region: NASA Southwest
Car #: 77
Year : 1996 Posts: 147
Status: Offline
posted
For the record Tim is an awsome guy and very helpful. Sorry if it looked like I was bahing the SMT car. I think its a sweet idea and just wanted to give input on some of the parts that may or may not be durable or needed. Example the flares and slicks. I'm sure it will come out great. What happened to that yellow smt that runs around Texas? That car was sweet but I never saw under the hood. Is the manifold and turbo on Tim's car from the Greddy kit?
-------------------- "This sticker is dangerous and inconvenient, but I do love Fig Newtons!"
We ran 225's on the ITS RX7's back in 96. As far as I know they are still using the same today with no ill effects. It's just too easy to ignore. BTW we were also limited to 7" rims in EP using the cantilevered slicks that Tim is using on the SMT.
Region: SW - Houston
Car #: 6
Year : 99, 96 Posts: 2262
Status: Offline
posted
quote:Originally posted by Jacob Groves: For the record Tim is an awsome guy and very helpful. Sorry if it looked like I was bahing the SMT car. I think its a sweet idea and just wanted to give input on some of the parts that may or may not be durable or needed. Example the flares and slicks. I'm sure it will come out great. What happened to that yellow smt that runs around Texas? That car was sweet but I never saw under the hood. Is the manifold and turbo on Tim's car from the Greddy kit?
The yellow car is Keith Verges' car and as far as I know, he still runs it. There are multiple SMT cars in Texas. Maybe Keith will read this and provide some input.
-------------------- Blake Clements
PhillipsRacePrep/SP Induction Systems/East Street Racing/MiataCage.com/Carbotech/WBR Graphics
Region: SFR
Car #: 54!
Year : 90' Posts: 1907
Status: Offline
posted
quote:Originally posted by TimBuck: It's a new set of rivet-on flares we are developing with AWR. Much cheaper than fender/qtr replacements that are used in EP/FP.
But is it the same kit that AWR sells right now? Or a completely new kit? The one they sell is nice, but also requires a lot of work similar to the EP mazda kit.
Region: SFR
Car #: 54!
Year : 90' Posts: 1907
Status: Offline
posted
quote:Originally posted by TimBuck: It's a new set of rivet-on flares we are developing with AWR. Much cheaper than fender/qtr replacements that are used in EP/FP.
But is it the same kit that AWR sells right now? Or a completely new kit? The one they sell is nice, but also requires a lot of work similar to the EP mazda kit.
Region: MidDiv / SOWDIV
Car #: #39
Year : 99 LS1 Miata Posts: 1756
Status: Offline
posted
Keith's Turbo Spec miatas are 1.8s with the FMII turbo kits, 8" wheels, hydra ECU, hoods cut for heat extraction, cheap tires that I can't remember which brand. There are 4 or 5 of them around. Not the concept Tim is running out there, but very fun cars. They kick some big car butts in NASA.
-------------------- Mac Spikes IPRESS Racing MER East Street Auto SAFERACER Hoosier Carbotech MotorSport Ranch Cresson, Texas "To hell with you Gen. Sheridan...I 'll take Texas!"
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I enjoy debating as much as the next guy but I'm the only one coming up with data here. Where is yours? 
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Unfortunately for your chances, Boris will be driving some kind of Mustang beast, so you're going to have to put the biggest baddest tires on your Miata, turn the boost up, and fill it up with rocket fuel if you want get past him. ![[rolling on floor laughin]](graemlins/rotfl.gif)
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