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Author Topic: SMTurbo Mazdaspeed kit
miata_racer
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The more this develops the better it gets.

I think as long as its based on DOT tires it will be a winner. $3000-5000 more in prep would be ok with me to save it after a season or two or three in operational costs as stated above.

If I had my druthers I would be in something much faster than a miata as well [Wink]

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David Hedderick
92 Miata, 01 CRG Heron Plus-YZ125
02 Protege, 08 Mazda 3s

Jfornachon Verified Driver
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quote:
Originally posted by Sean Allen:
quote:
Originally posted by TimBuck:
It's a new set of rivet-on flares we are developing with AWR. Much cheaper than fender/qtr replacements that are used in EP/FP.

But is it the same kit that AWR sells right now? Or a completely new kit? The one they sell is nice, but also requires a lot of work similar to the EP mazda kit.
Sean,

I don't know if you have noticed but you quoted the answer to your own question.

Have a great day,
Jared

Eric Lendrum
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I'm coming into this thread a little late, but I think this is the coolest concept for a class I've just about ever heard. There are a lot of people that seem to be concerned with costs of an entry level class... I agree, but that's what SSM is for. When you want to step up, that is what SM is for and now, some of us need to move up once again. $2500-$5000 seems to be the talk, well, for missing 2-3 races to cover most of the costs, I think this would be an "outstanding change of pace."


I'm in! [yep]

vanarkel Verified Driver
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Tim,

I think adding a turbo is a natural progression from SM.

Just be sure to keep it simple and others will follow.

I would think 180-190hp would be enough of a change to justify the effort without over stressing the car.

step up to 225 r rated tires. add bigger brakes. properly revalved bilsteins. a torsen diff. and you'd have a package that lots of people would consider.

Policing power will of course be an issue. It already is.

I was going to build one just as a track day toy. But if you can make a race series out of it, I'm in.

JH

Jfornachon Verified Driver
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Do we have any update on this kit?

Have a great day,
Jared

dtfastbear Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
faster than the average bear...

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Tim et al,

If we think this car will go 4-6 seconds a lap faster on a 2:00-ish track and are considering slicks, is anyone worried about front hubs becoming a weak point? For sprint racing, it would probably be OK - just up the rebuilding/maintenance frequency. But, Tim, you mentioned that you would have wanted to get it in the 25 a few weeks ago. Would a stock miata hub go that distance at that speed, assuming it was properly rebuilt and packed with the right grease before the race?

I'm wondering if there's an aftermarket solution or a beefier part from another mazda (later model RX7? MX5) that would fit and provide more longevity for endurance racing...

EP and FP guys? Any suggestions?

Cheers,

Dean

--------------------
NASA Nor Cal SM series Director
www.molaps.com

Winner - Ford Racing Mustang Challenge Driver Shootout

Evil Genius Racing / Race Engineering / Stewart Development

Kent Carter Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
Future Never Has Been

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Just replace the hubs every week. Just part of the cost of going faster. Along with gearboxes, brakes, clutches.... etc.

No biggie.

--------------------
Do I turn my 99 Hard S into a killerfast SM or seek a donor?

drgoodwrench
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Here is a teaser for you all....stock 1.8 injectors, stock fuel pressure regulator= fuel limited HP production...
attempting to get max safe boost early, then taper down boost as fuel delivery becomes limited by duty cycle... (Increasing RPM= decreasing injection time)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MbEbRqU-cak

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David de Regt Verified Driver
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Somewhat. Unless you have a really good way of limiting boost production and the timing map you'll still have people that raise boost by an extra bit, which, with the max duty cycle on the injectors, will lean it out, but still make more power. The obvious risk is that you're running more boost, leaner, so running more ragged edge with more risk of detonation. It could be yet another way for motor wars.

I'm not naysaying, just hoping you've already worked through these kinks and wondering what the solutions are. [Smile]

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My Spec Miata Build Sheet - Hope people find it useful
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drgoodwrench
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Appreciate the input. MazdaSpeed is working on the spec. My personal bias is to leave the boost open, and the ecu tuning open, with winning MAPS posted on a website for all to use ( or not), and simply police the fuel, fuel pressure, and injectors.So if you want to run "mean and lean" and chance killing the motor, up to you.
By increasing the HP and the grip of the vehicle, small "cheat" advantages will be of less value, and driving ability (or lack there of)will be magnified.
That said, learning how to engineer the best performing vehicle you can, with class Legal variables like ECU tuning, variable boost control, suspension adjustments etc, present a whole new level of challenge and race "craft" into play, which I think many people would like to try thier hand at, without having to drop a small fortune into a car and spares.

David de Regt Verified Driver
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If you open up all that stuff, it's just going to be a game of chicken. Lean and mean and rebuilding your motor every third race means that those with more money wins. Now, granted, that's how all racing works, but it'd be nice if this was a little more spec than that. I don't have the money to play a motor race with the turbo boys, but I do have the money to build a car once, right. Currently to run competitively at runoffs you buy multiple motors and run whichever's strongest, making the entry cost for runoffs 20k$+. It'll be the same game here. [Frown]

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My Spec Miata Build Sheet - Hope people find it useful
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silverblack
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I think it should be clear that the intent is not to create a series that is less expensive than Spec Miata. My guess is these cars will be quite a bit more fun to drive, a little more expensive to maintain and depending on field size, just as much fun to race if not more so.

I think I have to keep my lips sealed on a few things but I know the powers that be are investigating some new power options that may be very easy to monitor and control. Other options exist for the mechanical grip end of things that could also make for more fun. Personally, I can't wait to see these little beasties blasting around giving the T1 cars fits in the infield [Smile]

While I love Spec Miata, it's not really "spec" is it? SRF is "spec"

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949Racing.com

Greg Bush Verified Driver
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I think David's point is that the spec package would get more people interested if it proved to be durable when run at the limit of the rules.

SM has that going for it. Some people do rebuild more often than others, but at worst its on a seasonal basis, not race by race.

I think by now we all know that more parts (turbo, etc), and more power equals more money required.

TimBuck Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Thanks for weighing in Emilio. I am pretty excited about the "new power option"...
[Cool]

--------------------
Tim Buck

MAZDASPEED Motorsports Development
Mazda North American Operations
phone (800) 435-2508
fax (949) 222-2650

zoom-zoom!

drgoodwrench
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quote:
Originally posted by David de Regt:
If you open up all that stuff, it's just going to be a game of chicken. Lean and mean and rebuilding your motor every third race means that those with more money wins. Now, granted, that's how all racing works, but it'd be nice if this was a little more spec than that. I don't have the money to play a motor race with the turbo boys, but I do have the money to build a car once, right. Currently to run competitively at runoffs you buy multiple motors and run whichever's strongest, making the entry cost for runoffs 20k$+. It'll be the same game here. [Frown]

Point well taken. I personally think that by having enough variables, the opportunity to beat the "money boys" actually increases in probability. Sadly there are always those that try and outspend the rules, so by giving folks options other than spending, PERHAPS some magic can occur. If nothing else, you are challenging yourself to build a better beast each weekend by making changes, not dropping in new motors. The ECU can be locked out, or set to limit timing or boost etc., but I think by posting all the winning or top 3 ecu files after each race, any serious dyno money spent becomes a one weekend advantage at best..
Also 3-5 HP advantage, when you only have 100HP, is huge, but when you have 166HP, a few more Ponies become much less relevant.

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Mike Colangelo Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Turning it into a "tuner" class is a bad idea. How many of us really have the time and resources to constantly tweak the motor and suspension? A nice thing about spec classes is that there aren't many tuning variables.

Keep it simple, reliable, and affordable and I think you'll have a winner.

Regarding WHP & torque parity, I like the Camaro Mustang Challenge's use of dyno testing the top 3 finishers at many of their races. Perhaps this can be implemented here?

Greg Bush Verified Driver
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I think the goals are to be reliable and interesting with a higher level of performance.

If you can't afford SMTurbo then there is always SM for you [Big Grin]

It would help if the people who are spending the money to make this option a reality would put out a "Mission Statement" like SM has, so we can point to that every time someone doesn't get what this proposed class is all about.

Mike Colangelo Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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quote:
Originally posted by Greg Bush:
I think the goals are to be reliable and interesting with a higher level of performance.

If you can't afford SMTurbo then there is always SM for you [Big Grin]

It would help if the people who are spending the money to make this option a reality would put out a "Mission Statement" like SM has, so we can point to that every time someone doesn't get what this proposed class is all about.

Points well taken, Greg.

Having said that, how will I ever pass you if I don't have a turbo?! [Wink]

David de Regt Verified Driver
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I understand all the points about letting people know the maps. But, I don't need to know the winning maps, I can tell you them right now. More boost, more timing, less fuel. They'll run it for a couple laps in qualifying and during the race and hope it holds up. You don't want people designing their motors around hoping they last 30 minutes. That's formula 1. I fully realize and endorse this not being an ultra budget class, but by encouraging people to run the ragged edge tunes, you're turning it into complete money wars. I'd rather have a 30k car than a 20k car that needs a 5k motor every 3 races to be competitive.

--------------------
My Spec Miata Build Sheet - Hope people find it useful
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WChristian 2
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There isn't one thing you can do to keep anyone from building engines that run on the ragged edge to get maximum performance. It obviously is happening in Spec Miata right now and has been for a while.......what makes you think that SM Turbo will be any different?

TimBuck Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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William- at 160hp (or so), the 7hp (or so) you get from a pro motor is significantly less of an advantage.

And if we use this other "new power option" we can curve it that so full torque will come in VERY low in the RPM range and is VERY flat all the way to redline. That will also help to minimize any pro motor advantage.

All- have a little faith! This is not my first trip around the block. There are a lot of SM issues that are being addressed in this new class.

--------------------
Tim Buck

MAZDASPEED Motorsports Development
Mazda North American Operations
phone (800) 435-2508
fax (949) 222-2650

zoom-zoom!

joeracerx95 Verified Driver
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quote:
Originally posted by TimBuck:
...
All- have a little faith! This is not my first trip around the block. There are a lot of SM issues that are being addressed in this new class.

Tim, you make it sound like this class is a done deal. How done is this deal???

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Never underestimate a man that owns a welder and a Sawzall.

WChristian 2
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quote:
Originally posted by TimBuck:
William- at 160hp (or so), the 7hp (or so) you get from a pro motor is significantly less of an advantage.

And if we use this other "new power option" we can curve it that so full torque will come in VERY low in the RPM range and is VERY flat all the way to redline. That will also help to minimize any pro motor advantage.

All- have a little faith! This is not my first trip around the block. There are a lot of SM issues that are being addressed in this new class.

Tim: I have faith, that's why we haven't sold our 1.6L cars yet! Were waiting to help get this class going in SoPac

Gibscreen Verified Driver Series Champ
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11:1 Air:Fuel ratio? That sounds pretty rich. Of course I'm not expert on A/F. But with optimal being 14.7:1 and best power being slightly rich, shouldn't best power come at 13:1 or a little higher? Or is a turbo car different?

--------------------
Rob Gibson
RJ Racing
2010 NASA Nationals TTE Champion
2008/2009 WERC Champion
2007 NASA SoCal SM Champion
rjracing.net
Weekend-Racer.com

drgoodwrench
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I really appreciate all the input here, that is what is most needed now, so when a mission statement does come out, it comes from lots of input and ideas. My personal bias is that I love to tinker with cars, as well as drive them, but we need to know if I am in the minority here of those that would be truly interested in a higher performing series. In the end, the customer is always right, so let's hear what you want...
As to the A/F ratio- In forced induction motors you get better power , in general, at about 12:1 than at leaner settings.
11:1 is a good safe ratio to begin with, and see where you can go with the timing from there.
Realize that any AFR sensor is testing the combined output of all cylinders, but it only takes 1 cylinder to go lean to destroy a motor. At low levels of boost and fuel consumption, little danger of major differences in injector output due to fuel rail pressure drop etc, but as boost and fuel consumption rate increases, the chance of a single injector having a momentary issue also increase. Also the HP differences seen from 11.5:1 vs 13:1 and all in between are usually small compared to the total.
Gibson- You doing the WERC in E2 this year?

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David de Regt Verified Driver
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Every little bit adds up. 3 hp is a make-or-break difference at 120 hp. That just means that 5 hp is the same difference at 160 hp. I yet again want to caution that letting people tinker with their tunes to run ragged edge is a really really bad plan.. People will do it, and they will get advantages.

There is a huge difference between paying for a pro motor that runs the ragged edge of the rules and one that runs the ragged edge of destruction. If I pay 7k for a pro motor, I expect that to last a season or two. If I run a ragged edge tune, then I expect it to grenade after a race or 2. 11.5 and 12.0 is a noticeable power difference. Same with 11.0 and 11.5.

11.0 is a standard fairly conservative fat tune. There's tons of room left in there for leaning out, and people will do it.

--------------------
My Spec Miata Build Sheet - Hope people find it useful
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Gibscreen Verified Driver Series Champ
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quote:
Originally posted by drgoodwrench:

Gibson- You doing the WERC in E2 this year?

Yep. The whole season again. We have to defend our CHAMPIONSHIP. That's right, we took down DivaSpeed at Thunderhill. We were 14 points behind them and needed a win in the 6 Hour portion to get the championship...so we just went out and won.

--------------------
Rob Gibson
RJ Racing
2010 NASA Nationals TTE Champion
2008/2009 WERC Champion
2007 NASA SoCal SM Champion
rjracing.net
Weekend-Racer.com

TimBuck Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
I'll believe it when I believe it.

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Hey Rob- are you planning on Infineon and both T-hill races?

--------------------
Tim Buck

MAZDASPEED Motorsports Development
Mazda North American Operations
phone (800) 435-2508
fax (949) 222-2650

zoom-zoom!

jwarren Verified Driver
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i'm not sure if this has been mentioned before, but why not just put a maximum hp allowance? wouldn't that solve all "more money for power" issues?

--------------------
Ridgespeed Racing

#51 J. Andrew Warren

http://www.ridgespeedracing.com

Gibscreen Verified Driver Series Champ
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quote:
Originally posted by TimBuck:
Hey Rob- are you planning on Infineon and both T-hill races?

Absolutely. And we're on the hunt for a 2nd car so that we can have a 2 car effort at the 25. What enduro class do you think the SMT would fit into? [Smile]

--------------------
Rob Gibson
RJ Racing
2010 NASA Nationals TTE Champion
2008/2009 WERC Champion
2007 NASA SoCal SM Champion
rjracing.net
Weekend-Racer.com

TimBuck Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
I'll believe it when I believe it.

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I now have an ITA car! Let's talk.

--------------------
Tim Buck

MAZDASPEED Motorsports Development
Mazda North American Operations
phone (800) 435-2508
fax (949) 222-2650

zoom-zoom!

CLee
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So how much weight do we need to put into the 1.6 in order for the 99+ to race [duck]

Clubracer6 Verified Driver
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This is an ideal solution Tim - keep going, but include the 99's and up! Just equalize them somehow. I am reluctantly building a 99 now for SM (had two 1.6's previously) and I'm doing it because there just isn't a class with big fields like this. TSM would be awesome and I hope it comes to fruition. I quit two years ago, because I was just bored with the power.

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Karim Alex Talbot
99 - #TBA

David de Regt Verified Driver
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Why bother having the parity issues with the 99s and up when you can just buy a 1.6 for 1/3 the price and turbo it?

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Clubracer6 Verified Driver
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For those of us that already have nicely built 99's - it would be nice to not have to sell and build all over again....

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Karim Alex Talbot
99 - #TBA

David de Regt Verified Driver
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Dealing with parity issues with different engines and forced induction would be a nightmare. Gotta break some eggs...

--------------------
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WChristian 2
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I agree, parity makes things hard, make it 99+ only. Who needs a 1.6l [banghead] [rolling on floor laughin] [fight] [duck]

Jonathan Christian Verified Driver
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quote:
Originally posted by Gibscreen:
quote:
Originally posted by TimBuck:
Hey Rob- are you planning on Infineon and both T-hill races?

Absolutely. And we're on the hunt for a 2nd car so that we can have a 2 car effort at the 25. What enduro class do you think the SMT would fit into? [Smile]
If your looking for a race ready car we have one for sell, pm me if your interested.

Gibscreen Verified Driver Series Champ
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Please allow me to clarify. My comment was a semi-sarcastic attempt to get the SMT prototype as our 2nd car. I'm interested in more creative options, i.e. if an owner wants to participate but doesn't want to pay to drive someone else'a car, etc.

Thanks for the responses though.

--------------------
Rob Gibson
RJ Racing
2010 NASA Nationals TTE Champion
2008/2009 WERC Champion
2007 NASA SoCal SM Champion
rjracing.net
Weekend-Racer.com

vanarkel Verified Driver
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Tim, I suspect you know this already. But here's an opinion to weigh in against the titanium and carbon fiber crowd. As you develop this potential new series I would suggest keeping in mind the fundamental math that helped make SM work. Low cost + simplicity+ reliability + fun to drive = popular. And just because we want more power doesn't mean we want the negatives that often accompany it. Whatever this new "power option" is keep it simple, cost effective and without too much fiddle factor. It should feel like Spec Miata. Only faster.

Speaking of the mystery new "power option", I hear a Z06 engine will drop right in : )

j

[ 02-16-2009, 03:34 PM: Message edited by: vanarkel ]

drgoodwrench
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Here is avideo of the "new Power Option". It is still in the development stage so don't get too worked up about anty of the dyno curves/results just yet.
After further R&D we are hoping to get torque and HP curves that reach peak values sooner in the rpm range and hold it there. Don't have a cost figure yet either.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UEfP2dxEfAs

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drgoodwrench
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Car #: 69
Year : 93
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Watch it in the Hi Res mode to be able to read the computer screens!

Here is a second but incomplete video in which we start to adjust timing. Unlike a turbo, the boost with a SC is RPM dependent, so the "ignition curve" follows the boost curve, meaning the cells in the ignition map above the curve will never be reached.
Any predictions on what happened next???

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=taztICkfjkM

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JD Morris Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
A slower JD...

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Year : --
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Fun! Will you try the MP62 coldside as well?

JD

drgoodwrench
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Year : 93
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I wish we could, but the maker of that unit is not involved at this time, but we are hoping they might take an interest. In order for this series to happen, it will take a real level of commitment by the Forced Induction supplier to make a very reliable set up, at the absolute lowest price possible. I am hoping the exposure from the series will be worth enough to the suppliers to justify selling these parts to the racers at cost or less...

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Dusty Bottoms Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
99 all the way!

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Year : 1990
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quote:
Originally posted by David de Regt:
I think people are looking at this the wrong way. The way it looks, anyway, is that this isn't another entry level racing class, this a significant step up.

Yes, we all know SCCA is lacking in classes to step up to [Roll Eyes] ...we have way too many entry-level classes. Talk about dilution...

Back into my hole...

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"Your victory is tainted! Asterisk! Asterisk!!!"--Lisa Simpson

Mike Colangelo Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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quote:
Originally posted by drgoodwrench:
I wish we could, but the maker of that unit is not involved at this time, but we are hoping they might take an interest. In order for this series to happen, it will take a real level of commitment by the Forced Induction supplier to make a very reliable set up, at the absolute lowest price possible. I am hoping the exposure from the series will be worth enough to the suppliers to justify selling these parts to the racers at cost or less...

Pretty cool.

So when can we expect to see this beast on one of the SoCal tracks? Cal Speedway is nice this time of year [Wink]

Clubracer6 Verified Driver
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Region: CENDIV
Car #: TBA
Year : 1999
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Any updates Tim??

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Karim Alex Talbot
99 - #TBA

Waco Racer Verified Driver
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Maybe they're working on a plug and play crate motor from the Dyson/Mazda LMP2 car. Once they get it reliable, they'll release it to the racers. [thumbsup]

rlogan
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Year : 96
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I'd like to know the current state of this. I am at a cross roads where I can build up a 2000 to SM specs or trade it for a 1991 spec miata that's almost ready to go. I already have most of the parts to make an all out turbo track car, but in the mean time, I plan to just run SM. I just want to have the proper platform for this future class if it happens. I'd love to be a guinea pig....I am already used to having no class to run in.

Jfornachon Verified Driver
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Year : 1991
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They already have a test mule and it is fast. I too would like to know about an update.

Have a great day,
Jared

 
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