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Author Topic: R888 Data Thread
Casey Z Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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At the suggestion of Bruce W I am opening this thread to gather information that will help NASA and SCCA gather empirical performance info on the R888 for Spec Miata. Let's leave all the opinions and speculation to other threads and just post data here. Examples would be:

Track
Heat Cycles
Total Laps
Total Time
Cold Pressure
Hot Pressure
DOT Codes
Camber
Pyro Readings
Shave
Lap times
Driver Comments on tire feel
Other comments that you feel are relevant

Let's just try to keep this one objective and based on facts as you have experienced them. You as the driver are the DAQ. Just report your data. I am sure this will be helpful to the CRB and to NASA as well.

If you have opinions to share as do I, let's do it in another thread. I am asking the mods to help me keep this thread tight. Keep to the facts or posts will go to the oval file.

Let's gather some data. Thanks in advance.

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cnj
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My input with an attempt to provide detailed R888 experiences info per request. I run a 99.

MSR Houston:

Feb 13th test day. Temp ranges 60-72 degrees. Periodic rain. Ran 5 (20 minute) sessions, 3 in damp conditions. Hot tire pressures around 38. Started with new R888s. Did not rotate tires and effectively killed one tire and approximately 50% wear on other three over 4 sessions. Changed tires to new for 5th session. All tires 3/32.

Feb 13th race day. Ran SM and ITS quali and regional races (4 sessions) . Ran one cycle new tires with rotations after each session. Temps almost identical to the day before.
Feb 14th race day. National SM quali and race. Started to mix and match tires as they were getting pretty worn. Temp up to about 75 for race.

Tires went off after about 6 laps but not too badly for me. I was having handling problems which we later attributed to binding rear sway bar, resulting in a low cross weight setting. This killed FL tire. I left weekend with 4 tires at about 50% and 2 tires which could be used in an emergency. I was concerned about tire wear, but attributed it to car set up difficulties.

TWS:

March 6th.. Temp ranges 64-85 during the day. P1 used ties from previous race. They started to look very worn on the outer edges in particular and I had poor handling. Tires were now a mixture of heat cycles, but generally around 5-6 cycles. We did a complete car set up and changed to new tires for P2 and ran full session. Handling on new tires was fabulous and I was nearly 3 seconds faster until the later part of the session when the tires started to slide. Back in paddock I was shocked to see how much wear I had from a single session. Started to panic about how I was going to survive the weekend on tires and negotiated a used pair of 4 cycle tires from James York that looked better than my other tires. We went back on the scales and set slightly more camber on the car in an attempt to reduce wear.

March 7th. Temp ranges 68-81 during the day. Q1 used mix of older tires. Ran slower than P2 by 0.5 second. Qualified further back in field than hoped for and so decided to protect my good tires for Sunday and ran minimum 4 heat cycle tires (two from James as all my others were toast). Tires were incredibly greasy and I was passing fodder on track. Finally was so slippery that I simply started to laugh on the radio about how crazy it was to drive like this. I finally made up 4 positions only because others were clearly also having difficulties staying on the black stuff everyone I passed slid out of my way.

March 8th. Temp ranges 69-82 during the day. Qualified on 1 heat cycled tires running only 5 laps. The outside was very worn down and one tire was almost bald at end of session. Rotated tires and flipped two of them on rims and brought one 5 heat cycle tire into play for the race. Tires went greasy about 8 laps into the race. At end of race tires are now mostly bald. Maybe one or 2 practice sessions left in them, definitely nothing serious.

Hot pressures for all TWS runs within plus minus 1 pound of 38 all round even at end of race.
No rake in car.
Camber LF-2.4, RF-2.3,LR-2.8,RR-2.9
No toe front, extremely slight toe rear.

My thoughts:

1) All that I spoke to at TWS (directly or those representing others - about 20 drivers in all) reported grave concern with their tire wear this weekend. This is not conjecture or bias against Toyo, it is a real problem, at least for this weekend, at this track.
2) Matt Reynolds had the best wear that I saw at the track. I know that he lightly scrubbed his tires before coming to TWS thus letting them fully cool before running them in anger. My first full run at both MSR and TWS with new tires resulted in heavy graining so I am inclined to follow his lead on this. It does annoy me though as it means that I will lose a session just to scrub tires.
3) In 5 races I have burned through 3 sets of tires. If I had wanted to be more competitive (ie. Not run slow tires) I would have used up 4 sets of tires. In the absence of new personal data, I am estimating 2 sets of tires for every 3 races for the season at this point. This is at least double what I used last year with RA-1s. I will cut back on some races.
4) Danny Steyn has reported contrary info on tire wear which I am loath to discount given his skill and my willingness to believe his data points. Car setup, weather, track, driving style, who knows? This however does not discount the experience of possibly over 30 drivers this weekend who have a wide variety of car setups, driving skills and styles, shave depths (full, 4/32, 3/32), etc. My instinct is that while we can probably learn to be better with R888s, it will be very difficult to get them to behave with the longevity or consistency of the RA-1s.
5) I dont care what tires we run, as long as they have decent longevity (10-12 usable cycles or 3-4 hours would be fine with me) and which do not degrade rapidly during a session. A lack of longevity will result in rapid replacements simply due to wear, while a rapid degrading in performance will result in a requirement for new tires each session in order to run towards the front of the pack. Very unappealing options.

Craig J

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I tried to pull out the best tidbits of the original thread and will post them here, it may take a few minutes because I am at work and might actually have work things to do.

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Danny Steyn - 03/08/09 @ 23:57
-------------------------------
In Saturday's 1-1/2 hour ECR, I ran my fastest lap on the last lap (lap 35) with no draft. Was able to get close to my fastest lap time, if not fastest lap time at the end of each race - in the SARRC on lap 6 and lap 9, and once again at the end of ECR 2.

Take the time to learn about this tire. It's different for sure. Jason Owenby was really struggling with it as it was his first weekend on it, but for us at OPM it was our 5th. Makes a big difference.

It exhibits VERY different handling characteristics at different tire pressures, and this allows more handling tuning than I was able to feel with the RA-1's.

But I will agree on the wear. It does seem to cord a bit faster. I dont count heat cycles, since some are long and some are really short. I count total time driven at speed and I am seeing around 3 hours of use out of a set, depending on the track.

A second issue that we have experienced is out-of-round tires. I have had two. Came shaved o-o-r. Creates the worst drive train vibration you can imagine. In car video is unwatchable. Not sure if its getting shaved badly or if its a carcass issue.

I actually like the tire. Its just different. If it does cost more in the long run, that will be a big negative, but it's too early for me to say for sure.

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Alex Gaines - 03/09/09 @ 09:07
------------------------------

quote:
Danny Steyn - 03/08/09 @ 23:57
-------------------------------
In Saturday's 1-1/2 hour ECR, I ran my fastest lap on the last lap (lap 35) with no draft. Was able to get close to my fastest lap time, if not fastest lap time at the end of each race - in the SARRC on lap 6 and lap 9, and once again at the end of ECR 2.

Take the time to learn about this tire. It's different for sure. Jason Owenby was really struggling with it as it was his first weekend on it, but for us at OPM it was our 5th. Makes a big difference.

It exhibits VERY different handling characteristics at different tire pressures, and this allows more handling tuning than I was able to feel with the RA-1's.

But I will agree on the wear. It does seem to cord a bit faster. I dont count heat cycles, since some are long and some are really short. I count total time driven at speed and I am seeing around 3 hours of use out of a set, depending on the track.

A second issue that we have experienced is out-of-round tires. I have had two. Came shaved o-o-r. Creates the worst drive train vibration you can imagine. In car video is unwatchable. Not sure if its getting shaved badly or if its a carcass issue.

I actually like the tire. Its just different. If it does cost more in the long run, that will be a big negative, but it's too early for me to say for sure.

I think I have to agree with Danny. I ran 2 20 min qual sessions,a 1.5 hour ecr, and then a SAARC sunday. The fastest times of my weekend were in the SAARC around lap 6 which was the last race of the weekend. I played with pressures all weekend and had them where I wanted for the SARRC. They seem to be very pressure sensitive to me. It was my 4th weekend on the tire. Alex Gaines

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Danny Steyn - 03/09/09 @ 14:32
------------------------------
In the SARRC qualifying (midday) cool but warming air, I was able to run 2.21.2 in lap 7 for my best time. Car weight over the scales was 2464#

Later that afternoon (4pm), running on the same tires on lap 37 of the ECR, the car was able to run 2.21.289 in much hotter conditions. Car weight over the scales was 2476#. (13 # heavier)

Ran the same tires in the SARRC next day and ran 2.20.8 in lap 7 and 2.20.9 in lap 9 (no draft at any time) car weight was 2468#

The following day we used two new tires on the front to deal with the corded and out of round tire, and we put the original tires on the back and I was able to run 2.21.080 on lap 21 of ECR 2 (in the draft of Ken's Porsche 944), and 2.21.9 on the last lap lap 36 (no draft)and wait for it - at 2496# over the scales (yup we had a slight miscalc with the fuel in the ECR2)

So whats the point about all this data..... just shows that the times dont fall off that much, had WAAAAAAY worse on Hoosiers and similar on RA-1's.

I just feel that everyone is jumping to conclusions without enough data.

Not saying any of the experiences/ hearsay / assumptions arent correct, but there are some real anomalies that indicate that there is more to this than meets the eye at first blush!

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Kent Carter - 03/09/09 @ 15:38
--------------------------------
I hear ya. I bought my 888's from Joe with a 4/32 shave for one set and a 3/32 shave for the other. A group of us did some testing in 60 degree weather back in December at MSRH and found that they were looking good on our 1.6's and awful on the 99. We took the 99 data with a grain of salt because that driver tends to over drive a bit. Traditionally, I'm very very easy on tires. And the other 1.6 driver is a very seasoned pro.

Fast forward to TWS in March. Temps are now in the low 80's and the majority of the field is stunned at the speed at which they wear out. Those who go out of fresh tires report some drop off, those of us who brought tires with a few sessions on them report grass in the radiator inlet.

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Jason Saini - 03/09/09 @ 15:57
----------------------------
Started on 3/32" tires, did 4 laps in Saturday qualifying. Did a 16 lap National race. Rotated tires on car, then did 5 laps in Sunday qualifying. Started noticing a lack of overall grip in qualifying and had laptime degradation. Qualified 7th, when I had been on pole Saturday. Looked at the tires, one was worn clean no grooves left - two others were half gone (all grooves from center to sidewall were gone, still some grooves on inside,) and the fourth tire was okay.

Found some good take offs that 'looked' okay for the race. Around lap 11, the handling degraded and I dropped from the battle for 2nd to a distant 4th. When I came in, one tire was again worn clean.

So, I got two sessions out of a new 3/32" set, give or take... to quantify this, it was about 22laps before one tire was worn out, that includes rotating them. On a 2.9 mile track that is 63.8 miles.

This is obviously track dependent, and TWS is hard on them... but TWS wasn't particularly hard on RA1's.

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Griff W - 03/09/09 @ 16:27
--------------------------------
I ran a set of full-treads at the Sebring SARRC on 2/21; qualifying session (3 laps) and the 12-lap race. By lap 11 the grip was non-existent. I have since had them shaved and rebalanced to see if they're any better at PBIR on April 4th & 5th.

An interesting observation - looking at fast laps for the 45 cars in the race, only 2 cars clocked fastest time in lap 12. There were 8 or 10 others with best time in lap 10 or 11, the vast majority I'd say clocked best time somewhere around mid-race. This observation isn't scientific, and I don't know how it caompares with other events, but it seems interesting. I also don't know how many of the field were running on RA1's - there were a few I observed on the grid.

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Mark McCallister - 03/09/09 @ 17:14
-----------------------------------
Paul, I ran 3 dry sessions on a set of full-tread 888s that I had bought for rain tires at Roebling at the end of January (test day). They added 2.5 seconds to my lap times over year-old flat-spotted RA-1s. I am not planning to ever try full-tread 888s again - I will go either 3 or 4/32nds

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Cajun Miata Man - 03/09/09 @ 21:53
------------------------------------
At MSRH, I thought not too bad, I used up probably 1/2 the life of a new 2/32" set in a P/Q then race and maintained a pretty steady race pace on that set.

Fast forward to this weekend, whoa.... Friday I killed a 4 heat cycle set of 3/32" in P1 (tread remaining, but no grip), and heat cycled a new 3/32" in P2.

Saturday, ran Q1 with my set 2/32" from MSRH (their 3rd cycle, still pretty good grip on laps 1-3, landing me in 7th) and busted the rear carrier on race lap 1 on the newly heat cycled 3/32" (so no real use or added cycle).

On Sunday, I made the big mistake of putting back on the 2/32" tires from MSRH for their 4th cycle in Q2 because they still had nice even tread and were pretty good during Q1. Even with a huge draft slingshot into turn 1 against our 20 mph headwind that started me with a 0.88 sec up my best time, I landed 4 positions down on the starting grid and a 0.5 sec SLOWER. Needless to say, I came in after that lap and yanked them off. During R2, I put on the 3/32" tires again and went the distance and after the initial fall of performance in lap 3, they were ok as I continually told myself to not drive the tires off. That was their 2nd cycle and they still have even nice wear and look pretty good. But, I think using them for any Qualify or Race would be a gamble. Maybe I should sale them for 1/2 price.

So from my point of view, for the double Nat at TMS in May, I think I need a two new sets. 1 qualifier and 1 race, or 1 sat/1 sun. I need to think about which way will maximum my use of the optimum tire window.

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suck fumes - 03/09/09 23:33
-----------------------------
i second danny, i know they drop off a little during the race, but i ran consistent lap times during the race that were only 3 to 4 tenths off my qual. time. and the tires were on their 6th LONG heat cycle.

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Jason Saini - 03/10/09 @ 09:47
-------------------------------
Well, I don't think I could have been more clear, and I like to think I'm not a hack, so this data would be pretty salient:

- TWS, 75deg ambient
- 3/32" Shave depth
- 4 Laps in Sat Qual, pole position... 11.6 Total Miles
- 16 Laps in the Sat race... P4, 58 Total Miles
- Tires were then diagonally rotated on the car
- 5 Laps in Sunday Qual, poor handling, 7th position, 72.5 Total Miles

At that point, the LF (had been RR, which was most loaded) was worn down to where there were no grooves left. The RR (which had been the LF) was okay, the other two tires were done as well, with some grooves showing, but they were worn from the center out.

After the tire test, I was reasonably satisfied... you can even dig up a post of mine from shortly after the test where I defend the R888. However, after the experiences this weekend.... and the similar reports trickling in from all around the country, something needs to be done now.

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OPM Autosports Inc - 3/10/09 @ 10:00
-----------------------------------
I understand the problems people are having with this new tire and I have had problems also. We are now on our 4th wknd on the tire and this wknd at VIR our results were a little different from what most people are seeing.

3/32nd shave
2-20 min sessions on test day
2-10 min practice sessions
2-15 min quals
2-1.5 hr enduros

Thats 4.5 hrs of track time and the tires still look pretty good. We are getting an average of 2-3 wknds on the tires which is not far off the RA-1s we had before. VIR is pretty easy on tires and we have found if the car does not handle well and you slide it around the tire goes away quickly. Just another perspective. As we learm more about the tire some of the problems may go away.

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Mad Merv - 3/10/09 @ 13:04
----------------------------
Another perspective from TWS this past weekend. It was our first time with the 888's, and luckily we had two sets. While most everyone else was running 3/32, we were at 4/32. We ran a total of eight sessions for the weekend, rotating and swapping sets, directions, back and front, trying to find some grip after four laps. Nothing made a difference. Pressures from extremes made no difference. Tire temps remained relatively even throughout the weekend. The tires would consistently get greasy after 4-6 laps. By eight laps, turn six was opposite lock for the remainder of the race, and from what we saw, we weren't the only ones.

It's not like we don't know this track. I've been running it since 1989 and Bob, who live six miles away, spends LOTS of time there. We have never seen tires react this way on this track.

I noticed after qualifing for Saturdays race, that most cars fast lap was either 1 or 2. Unfortunately, I dont have that sheet with me. I do have the one from Sunday. It was not quite as bad as some had dropped to 3 or 4 laps. Here's the breakdown:
1st lap - 7
2nd lap - 6
3rd lap - 11
4th lap - 5
5th lap - 3
6th lap - 4
7th lap - 1
The top 18 were all 1 to 4
Now I know we can't be sure of the number of heat cycles on anyone else, so this may mean nothing, but there was NO ONE that I talked to that was happy with the tires toward the end of the race, whether they were on stickers, or six-heat cyle tires. I can't imagine what it will be like when it gets HOT!

We will certainly keep trying to find that "magic" answer.....maybe positive camber and toe in the front! Who knows? If someone truely has the answer, I wish that wouldn't keep it a secret!

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Mad Merv - 3/10/09 @ 13:32
---------------------------
Cold 31/32 Hot typically 38-39.
Cold 28/30 Hot 36-37
Starting colder gave us a few more laps and a bit quicker.
It also appeard that we might have had slightly too much camber on the inside and rear. Our fastest lap of the weekend was Sunday afternoon. We had backed off the camber a bit on the inside front.

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Jason Saini - 3/10/09 @ 13:38
-------------------------------
We were starting at 30 on the unloaded side, 31 on the other and coming in at 38.... anything below 38 hot and they seem to wear abnormally in the center of the tire. We were not on ballooned up tires. Maybe we needed to be?

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Mike C - 3/10/09 @ 13:47
----------------------------
Our hot pressures were targeted for 40 to 41. The one time we got the rears to 45 the car was crazy loose. Anything less than 40 and tire wear was not as even. Anything over 43 and the car handled greasy form the start.

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Gearhead - 3/10/09 @ 16:15
----------------------------
Well I can add some information from Roebling Road National. I have about as much track time as anybody on these tires in both cold and warm temperatures. All competition has been done on 3/32" shave.

I have now run on the 888s at PBIR Double National, Sebring National, OPM's test day at Roebling Road, a test day at Road Atlanta, and the Roebling National this past weekend. I just purchased my 6th set. To be fair, one is still new and another is a rain set. That means I used 4 sets in 4 weekends. I don't think you need 2 sets per weekend but based on my experience, you will need 1 per.

I concur with the general consensus on these tires:
Good when new for 3-5 laps, then get greasy.
Pretty good for the next heat cycle.
Wear will be evident at this point.
X them.
OK for the next couple of heat cycles.
At this point you will see visible wear and they will start to lose grip.
X them.
Next 2 cycles are good for practice.
After about 6 track sessions they are toast.

I don't know if it is run time or heat cycles but when the grooves are gone, so's the grip. Yes you can run fast on them but only when they are in the sweet spot which goes away much faster than the RA-1s.

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DionJ - 03/12/09 @ 11:15
---------------------------
Hope Ron doesn't mind me sharing this with all of you..

Ok, here's the deal on the R-888's.

I'd advise you one and all to TRY the suggestions I will make and then make a decision as to the speed and durabilty of the R-888 Vs the Ra-1 AFTER you try
these new ideas.

But only AFTER you try the new settings.

A bit of History:
I first experienced excessive wear and bad handling of the R888 at the 2007 NASA 25 hour race on Mike Quan's Honda Civic with Roger Foo
at the wheel.

Great team, excellent drivers. They came down in the middle of the night to ask if I could look at a tire issue they were having.
Seems that TOYO had given them some new 888's to 'try' in the 25 hour race. First off, during a race is the WRONG time to try anything NEW.
Let alone sort out a new tire. But, it was what it was and these things happen.

The issue was the car was pushing (front wheel drive car) and was wearing out the centers of the tires at an alarming rate.
Well, one look at the worn centers and I suggested LOWERING the pressure. We did.
And they began to wear out QUICKER and the handling became worse! It made no sense to me whatsoever.

Fortunately the team had enough RA-1's to complete the race and never put the R-888's back on the car.
But, that adjustment in air pressure SHOULD HAVE worked. It had for years on all types of tires. But it didn't and it stuck in my mind over the winter.

The start of the 2008 season:
In the NASA races the BMW E-30 class cars were allowed to run either the RA-1 or the R-888 until June of 2008. Most jumped to the R-888 right away.

But that deal about the tire wearing out quickly in the middle still bugged me. So, I kept an eye on them.

Early on I asked Donny Edwards to allow us to 'try' something on his E-30. At Thunderhill we sent Donny out at 40 lbs STARTING pressure!
He had already raced on them with the normal RA-1 starting pressure of 32 lbs, ending at 40lbs hot and was doing well. But, now I was asking him
to START at 40 lbs.

His comment after coming off the track was that the car felt more stable and quicker. His times proved that he was correct.
We kept an eye on Donny's car during the year and asked if he was getting any excessive wear. Donny's comment was that the car was used not only for the E-30 practice, qualifying and races but for every available session during the weekend. And no, they didn't wear quicker.

With this knowledge I then asked a HPDE driver, another trusted friend, if he would go out at 40lbs cold in his Porsche All wheel drive 911 Turbo. The thing weights a ton! He had already been out for 2 sessions at the lower RA-1 pressure setting on his new R-888's and LOVED the tires. Now, I was asking him to go out at a starting pressure of 40lbs. "Are you crazy" he asked. Maybe, but just try it for me.

His comment in coming off of the track was "I thought they were hooked up this morning with the lower pressure, but now they're REALLY hooked up."
He loves the R-888 tires.

I'm relating these stories to help you all understand that I didn't come by these very unusual pressure settings without some forethought, testing on various cars
with different drives and then analyzing the results.

Last story. At the NASA banquet one of the E-30 competitors came up and said that he finally put the pressure up to where I suggested at the last race.
I asked how it worked for him. He said that he had turned a lap only 1/10th of a second off of Donny Edwards fastest lap. I asked why he had not done that earlier in the year and he stated that he just couldn't believe that pressures that high would work. Even though HE had maintained Donny's car all year and knew exactly what we were using for starting pressure!

Asked how high the air pressure was that he used before, he said that he had started them at 38 and they went to about 42-44 hot. But, that the hot pressure Donny ran was 45-47. He stated that he could not believe the difference that 45-47 hot pressure made on his car. That it just came alive. 2-4 lbs in hot pressure does make a difference.

E-30's wear? Even across the tire! Heat cycle 0. Wear rate: same as or better than the RA-1. How long do they wear? Down to the cords, just as the RA-1s did.

We've used these same pressure settings for a Porsche 996 Cup full race car that normally races on Michelin or Yokohama slick tires and with the same results. No heat cycling, no excessive wear and totally fun and drivable.

SM competitors, the R-888 has a different construction. A huge change in the design of the tire. You must make some changes to:
1) Your driving style
2) Your air pressure settings
3) Your chassis setup
To get the most out the new R-888's.


Staying with the same old setup, same old pressure and same driving style will not prove beneficial.

My suggestions:
1) Start with the exact chassis setup you have with the RA-1
2) Start the R-888 with 40 to 42 lbs of pressure.
3) Look for 45-47 as your hot pressure goal.
4) Lower the rear of your car to allow the car to run FLAT, no rake!
5) Drive the car as you would a real race tire with as little sliding as possible but concentrate on using the additional side grip and better braking advantage the R-888 has over the RA-1.
That's just to start with. Ultimately, a change in sway bar settings may be beneficial.

If you can't get the tire up to 45-47 lbs, start with a HIGHER pressure.

Ultimately, I believe that you will find that about 3 to 3.5 degrees of negative camber will do the trick and with little or no toe out in the front and little or no
toe in for the rear.

This should to the trick. Let me know if I can help you.

Thanks,
Ron Cortez

--------------------
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OK, whew done. I now return you to your regularly scheduled posting.

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Dr.Dan Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Great stuff Lance. Thanks..we'll see out here in a couple of weeks.

--------------------
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Maybe some of the guys can try Ron's suggestions at MSR this weekend and see if it works. Weather is going to be iffy and lots cooler then it was at TWS.

--------------------
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We're going to try the high pressures, and see what happens... but on a car that's already been testing, we've not seen near the wear rates at our standard pressures... however, it's 39 degrees. Hopefully Sunday we learn something in the 45min race, it will be around 70deg. Historically, MSR Cresson has been abrasive, so it should be interesting.

I've never seen tire pressure affect wear rate without affecting wear pattern... i.e. if you're wearing out a certain part of the tire, but the tires I wore out at TWS were clean across the tire - so I can't see pressure making too much of an effect on that. Stranger things have happened, one of the things I understand least on a racecar is the tire!

--------------------
-Jason Saini :: Fort Worth, TX
-Team MER :: 2007 MX-5 Cup Champion
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Jason,

Please let us know what you find out.

Thanks

Jason

--------------------
Jason Holland
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Ron: Do the SpecE30 guys typically shave the tires, or use them from full tread? They're heavier and have about 25-30 more horsepower and a lot more torque so I would expect them to wear a tire faster than an SM.

I've been listening to the airwaves and figuring out a strategy to start with on these tires at my first weekend and my thought process got me to the same place that Ron got to with testing.

- DOT-R tires falling off and getting crappy mid-session or after a few hot laps sounds like a pressure problem to me based on my (very limited) past racing experience. That's what would happen to me with the RA-1's when I started cooking a tire and spiking the pressure, and it's happened to me on other tires like the V710 too. I always had this problem at HPT. Overheat one tire because the setup was hard on the outside rear, overheating it, then driving the piss out of it to keep up, overheating it more, cool it off with grass/dirt/hangtime, and repeat. So that sounded familiar.

- Tires get hot because of friction, either internal or external. I trust the people complaining about the tires when they say they weren't abusing them with lots of slip angle before they went off, so that tells me that there wasn't excessive external friction, which means either the compound is garbage or there's excessive internal friction causing heat buildup in the carcass.

- Internal friction is bad because it heats your heat sink, so to speak. Unlike heat generated from sliding the surface of the tire across the pavement, this is generated inside the tire and it has nowhere to go but through the carcass, which is a slow process (hence the reports of "they never came back after they went off").

- What causes internal friction? Flexing of the tire, mostly.

- Why do tires flex? Because they're full of air

So, my conclusion was that these tires probably need WAY more air than we're accustomed to seeing. Of course this tells me nothing about why people are seeing even wear or wear in the middle of the tires. Maybe they're growing at speed like a wrinkle-wall slick? [Confused]

After I let my brain cool off from all that thinking, I decided to start with my cold pressures at what my hot pressures were on the RA-1, around 37 psi cold -1 pound on the outside tires. If I see the typical 6-7 psi hot pressure difference, that should land me where Ron says made the SpecE30's happy, so maybe I'm not as useless at tires as I thought I was. We'll see. Good luck to everybody and thanks for falling on the grenade for everyone who has to wait till after the snow melts!

--------------------
Rich Wiese

Spec Wrecker Ford

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Just so you know, we have played with air pressures varying more than 10#, and have alos observed that at low pressures the R888 wear down the center of the tire - totally counter intuitive.

--------------------
Danny
http://www.dannysteyn.com
http://www.adeptstudios.com
OPM Autosports | Traqmate | Rossini Racing Engines
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Does anyone have a link to any Toyo recommended pressures? For some reason I have 38 hot stuck in my head but I am not sure why. Then again the collective wisdom a couple of years ago on the RA1 was 38-40 and through testing we found that about 4-6 less was actually optimal for us.

Hate to use the H word as I know I will get labeled as a shill as opposed to a customer that gets good support and appreciates it, BUT...

Anyone have a Toyo link that gives R888 setup and pressure recommendations similar to this: https://www.hoosiertire.com/rrtire.htm Click Tire info and then road racing

It would sure be useful about now.

--------------------
----------------
Z Brothers Racing / East Street Auto

Casey Z - 1.6 Kettle
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cnj
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At MSR Houston 3 weeks ago I went out for one session with hot pressures at around 50psi. Felt very slippery. For those experimenting with high pressures, you might want to start lower than this - unless you simply have plenty of track time to experiment.

Craig J

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Ugh... It might be time to split off another thread.

--------------------
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General Proxes R888 setup guidelines:

* Operating Temperature: 140F to 220F, optimum around 200F
* Hot Inflation Pressures: High 30s to Low 40s (psi)
* Camber: -2.5 to -5.0
* Caster: As much positive as possible

--------------------
Jason Holland
Semi-interested civilian

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This from an email I received from Toyo in December in regards to setup for the R-888.

"Paul,
We have general recommendations for the R888 compared to the RA1. You
can run less camber than RA1 based on Camber Angle vs. Camber Thrust
data. Some drivers were adding more pressure to have the tire feel like
the RA1. In testing the R888 has equivalent aquaplaning performance as
the RA1. We have no specific recommendations to heat cycle the tires.
The rubber compound is designed to be used as is. We do however
recommend you to scrub in your tires to clean the tire off of any mold
release residue and not go 10/10ths on a fresh, sticker set at first.

Cold pressures seem to be in the low 30's with hot temps in the high 30s
to 40 psi. Tire temps range from 160 to 220, with the optimum for the
compound to be 200 degF. Again these are general recommendations. It is
hard to give more than a general recommendation as there are variations
in chassis, setups and of course drivers. Always use a pyrometer to
take temps across the tread face to measuring what the tire is doing and
make adjustment accordingly.

I understand the confusion as the RA1 has been around for many years and
many cars are setup and dialed in for it. The R888 utilizes a new
construction so there might be a learning curve. On the other hand we've
also heard of people just bolting on the R888 and having great success.
There has been feedback from some drivers that the learning curve is in
driving styles."

--------------------
Paul McLester

cam Verified Driver
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quote:
Originally posted by Casey Z:
Does anyone have a link to any Toyo recommended pressures? For some reason I have 38 hot stuck in my head but I am not sure why. Then again the collective wisdom a couple of years ago on the RA1 was 38-40 and through testing we found that about 4-6 less was actually optimal for us.

Hate to use the H word as I know I will get labeled as a shill as opposed to a customer that gets good support and appreciates it, BUT...

Anyone have a Toyo link that gives R888 setup and pressure recommendations similar to this: https://www.hoosiertire.com/rrtire.htm Click Tire info and then road racing

It would sure be useful about now.

Thanks for the link, going through the site and came across tire models and prices, looks like the R6 in 205/50/15 is the same tire as the SM6. And the price is $210 per tire. Plus the R6 requires a break in period which means we will have to gain track time somewhere to do the initial heat cycle before the race. I think I'll learn how to drive with the R888 before shelling out that kind of cash and time for tires.

Added: The Hoosier R6 205/50/15 and the SM6 have the same part number of 46500. This is pertinent to this specific thread because changing to the obvious alternative choice will not solve the current issues of learning a new tire at a higher price point. Rather, the R888 are here and we just need to learn how to work with them and while the R888 appear to be more expensive (life span wise), they seem to be at least in the same relevant cost range when all cost are considered as the obvious alternative choice. Therefore, gathering data on what makes the R888 work on warm to hot days is important and there is not a need to jump out of SM due to the tire contract with both NASA and SCCA. Monitor, you can delete this post if you think this is a non-relevant entry.

--------------------
"The problem with Socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money."
~Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher
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Gatoratty Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Casey here is the link Jason is referring to above:
http://www.toyo.com/docs/tires/tires.asp?lpid...8&category=sport#Features

--------------------
Paul McLester

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Any discussion of Hoosier is pretty pointless, since the contract is with Toyo and they will need to do something internally to make this better. However, I'm not comfortable seeing misinformation on either tire at this point, especially since this is a 'data' thread, not an opinion thread. The recommendations for scrubbing tires are just that - recommendations. The SM6 can be used just like the R888, and scrubbing is a personal preference thing. Just wanted to be clear.

Any talk of 'budget' of the R888 vs. SM6 is folly... they are on equal footing there, and until the R888 wear issue is sorted then the R888 is probably the more expensive option. This mass fear of the 'big bad purple monster' is simply not founded, but since Toyo has the contract, it's really a moot point anyway.

--------------------
-Jason Saini :: Fort Worth, TX
-Team MER :: 2007 MX-5 Cup Champion
-2008 SPEED TC Rookie of the Year!
-Based at Motorsport Ranch
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TimBuck Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Un-Shill!

--------------------
Tim Buck

MAZDASPEED Motorsports Development
Mazda North American Operations
phone (800) 435-2508
fax (949) 222-2650

zoom-zoom!

Lance Snyder Made Donation to Website
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OK guys, consider this an only warning. Already had to clean out a few posts in this thread and if said folks keep it up heavier handed actions will be taken. I don't want to go down that route but Reading Is Fundamental:

quote:
Let's just try to keep this one objective and based on facts as you have experienced them. You as the driver are the DAQ. Just report your data. I am sure this will be helpful to the CRB and to NASA as well.

If you have opinions to share as do I, let's do it in another thread. I am asking the mods to help me keep this thread tight. Keep to the facts or posts will go to the oval file.

Here is a thread that has been started by a disgruntled driver where posts of the non-data nature are acceptable:

http://forum.specmiata.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?/topic/2/4303.html

--------------------
All this has happened before, and will happen again

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I am not convinced that the Miata can handle the additional spring rate of the higher pressures. But who knows! They may surprise me. It would be interesting to make the same higher pressures comparison on both 1.6 and 99+ cars.

--------------------
Glenn
Crew chief Meathead Racing, NE Region Sales Division Race Engineering, The GOLD standard in SM engines, Occasional race slave for OPM Autosports

Jonathan Christian Verified Driver
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We had a few guys at willow springs run higher pressures, i think the highest i heard was 44 hot and they said the car was all over the place. Once they lowered the pressures some they said it was much better. Im not sure running 46 psi hot is going to work but it cant hurt to try.

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I purchased a brand new set of shaved 4/32 r888s at VIR this past weekend and by not having any experience at either the track or with this tire I can only tell you about our experience with them. We had one round of qualifying early that morning and the temp was pretty cool around 60 degrees the car was pretty loose with starting air pressure set at 35 lbs cold on all four tires. We didn't make any changes since we were still learning the track and just counted it as inexperience. Our race was later that day temps were in the low 80's by then, we raced the car in the first ECR, came in at the half way to change drivers, the back air pressure was now 43lbs and the car was still loose we dropped 2 lbs out of the back- front was around 41 lbs next 45 mins car was still loose, just finished the race as is. Prior to qualifying for 2nd ECR we discovered that the sway bar was accidently set at full hard and the back brake pads were not wearing so changes were made to the bar and we adjusted the back brakes. Immediately out the car has a wicked push but stops much better we now think that maybe some of the loose condition came from the front brakes doing all the work. Race starts next day temps are still in the 80's car is now still pushing pretty bad we stop at the 45 minute mark and change drivers, air pressure is around 41 lbs hot now in the rear tire so we add 2 lbs to the rear. 2nd driver in, car is better but still pushing we finish the race in one piece. 3rd race Carolina Cup, immediately following the ECR, we drop the front tires 2 lbs in a final attempt to get the car some front grip, car responds with the most neutral ride I've had in quite a while, in the end we had a differance of 4 lbs from front to back but the car was pretty good. Looking at the tires the left rear is pretty much worn slick but all the tires are grained across the tread. All in all I was happy with the turn out and the tires responded to the changes that we made I'am a little concerned with how they grained up though. Total time on shaved tires 4.0 hrs and 45 mins. One other thing the other 3 tires appear to have good tread still left, I'll change them up and try them at CMP in 2 months.

--------------------
email: standrewsexpress@bellsouth.net
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Under powered and under driven

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quote:
Originally posted by oem steve:
I purchased a brand new set of shaved 4/32 r888s at VIR this past weekend and by not having any experience at either the track or with this tire I can only tell you about our experience with them.

Steve, based on your experience at the VIR, what cold presures would you recommend for R888s?

--------------------
Joe Benton
King Rat Motorsports
PBC Automotive

oem steve
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I'll stick with 35 lbs cold to start with, I may be changing some things on the car ie. camber in the rear and possibly toe in the rear before CMP in May. I'd like to get my pressures more equal from front to back. I may also take some RA1's with me to see how they compare. It's possible listening to several other threads that ambient temp, or track temp may have a lot to do with the way these tires react. The guys who sold me the tires suggested around 3 lbs over what you used to start your RA1's at.

--------------------
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Under powered and under driven

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How much rake, if any, were you running? What was the F/R balance?

TIA...

--------------------
--------------------

Glenn Davis

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Hey Glenn, I set up the car with the front and rear level as per the set up guide offered in this forum, ride height at 4 5/8" from the bottom of the rocker pinch welds. I didn't worry about the front to rear balance since I can't do any thing much about it. Just made sure my cross weight was as close to 50% as possible with my weight in the car. I do think that my race prior to VIR the car was to low and hitting the bump stops and upsetting the car, I've since reset it back and the car handles much better.

--------------------
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Under powered and under driven

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quote:
Originally posted by cam:
quote:
Originally posted by Casey Z:
Does anyone have a link to any Toyo recommended pressures? For some reason I have 38 hot stuck in my head but I am not sure why. Then again the collective wisdom a couple of years ago on the RA1 was 38-40 and through testing we found that about 4-6 less was actually optimal for us.

Hate to use the H word as I know I will get labeled as a shill as opposed to a customer that gets good support and appreciates it, BUT...

Anyone have a Toyo link that gives R888 setup and pressure recommendations similar to this: https://www.hoosiertire.com/rrtire.htm Click Tire info and then road racing

It would sure be useful about now.

Thanks for the link, going through the site and came across tire models and prices, looks like the R6 in 205/50/15 is the same tire as the SM6. And the price is $210 per tire. Plus the R6 requires a break in period which means we will have to gain track time somewhere to do the initial heat cycle before the race. I think I'll learn how to drive with the R888 before shelling out that kind of cash and time for tires.

Added: The Hoosier R6 205/50/15 and the SM6 have the same part number of 46500. This is pertinent to this specific thread because changing to the obvious alternative choice will not solve the current issues of learning a new tire at a higher price point. Rather, the R888 are here and we just need to learn how to work with them and while the R888 appear to be more expensive (life span wise), they seem to be at least in the same relevant cost range when all cost are considered as the obvious alternative choice. Therefore, gathering data on what makes the R888 work on warm to hot days is important and there is not a need to jump out of SM due to the tire contract with both NASA and SCCA. Monitor, you can delete this post if you think this is a non-relevant entry.

As long as we are staying on point and that is just stating facts, Cam you are 100% wrong. The SM6 tire is available at about $150 per tire from many sources. Yes it is very similar to the R6 and to be honest I think is is the same tire. What Hoosier wants to sell it as is up to them. Be that what it may, again, check your facts before you post further nonsense.

Gattory, thanks for the link, that is what I was looking for. It doesn't seem like that correlates to what we are seeing. Then again, optimal and wear are two different things.

Jason, good luck this weekend, let us know how it goes.

For the record I just want a tire that lasts a bit. It seems we have two at this point. The RA1 and the Hoosier SM. What we want doesn't matter. The BOD will keep the R888 or chose the RA1 again. Just in case you missed it, your opinion does not matter. Check Mac's post earlier in this thread. The BOD members that had an idea bout tires had to abstain. Thus we got the R888 and it is what it is.

You don't have to like it. It is what it is. The RA1 is a pretty good tire, I happen to think the purple monster that will destroy the world is a better tire, but the masses disagree and that is ok with me. Everyone has an opinion.

Let's just get back on track and get some data on the 888. That is the tire we are all going to live with for the next three years. For me it is easy. I am not buying any of them, but it will be fun to watch... [Big Grin]

--------------------
----------------
Z Brothers Racing / East Street Auto

Casey Z - 1.6 Kettle
MidDiv National #13

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So you know I want what is best for the class regardless of brand, let me give the early returns on the NASA race at MSR (The Origianl MotorSport Ranch). Today with the temp in the low 40s the 888s performed well for the front runners. wear seemed normal at first sight. I am sure after the weekend we can get data from several throughout the grid. Maybe this is a Temp thing.

--------------------
Mac Spikes
IPRESS Racing
MER
East Street Auto
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"To hell with you Gen. Sheridan...I 'll take Texas!"

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One thing we haven't covered yet. I'm waiting to see what they are like in the rain.

--------------------
Charlie Campbell
Race Engineering
carbotech brakes

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data point: Hoosier SM6 tires are listed on the Texas Hoosier distributor's website for $161 plus shipping. I don't know if they are actually available.

--------------------
Do I turn my 99 Hard S into a killerfast SM or seek a donor?

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On a track wet enough to be good and slick but not wet enough to put on a full tread set, I though the R888 handled quite well. I did have some corners where I made very ugly entries but if anything that was because I was gaining a level of confidence in their grip that made me decide to see just how deep I could move my braking points.

The weather was in the low to mid 40s. I seemed to think the tires were working best starting in the 38 to 42 psi range but my hot temps were coming out only slightly over 100*. I don't have all the data for what we tried since much of it was done in the hot pits based on my description of the handling. I did notice a variety of issues popping up when we tried to start at a bit higher p's in an effort to get the temps up.

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Keith Novak
(Will work for tires)

Jason Holland Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
Mediocrity rules!

Region: SouthEast
Car #: 28
Year : 95
Posts: 3756
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for Jason Holland   Author's Homepage     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

Good reports for wet weather performance from the NASA SM and SSM races at Road Atlanta today.

Most were on RA-1's but several were on the r888's and they had good things to say about them in the rain. Obviously no reading on wear and I don't think it's gonna dry out tomorrow but I'll post any info.

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Jason Holland
Semi-interested civilian

 
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