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Author Topic: R888 Data Thread
motorrock
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quote:
Originally posted by Kent Carter:
data point: Hoosier SM6 tires are listed on the Texas Hoosier distributor's website for $161 plus shipping. I don't know if they are actually available.

There are plenty everywhere.....

--------------------
philstireservice.com
philstireservice@aol.com

Kent Carter Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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quote:
Originally posted by motorrock:
quote:
Originally posted by Kent Carter:
data point: Hoosier SM6 tires are listed on the Texas Hoosier distributor's website for $161 plus shipping. I don't know if they are actually available.

There are plenty everywhere.....
How do you know this?

--------------------
Do I turn my 99 Hard S into a killerfast SM or seek a donor?

IPRESS Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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I have not yet bought any Hoosiers from Mike (Texas track side Hoosier dealer), but in the past if I needed the tires before I got to the track I was able to source them from Discount Tire here in Cowtown. Price was less then $160 the last time I got them (early last year.) Here is the jest of the matter, at least what Casey and I have discussed:
SCCA has a contract with TOYO (good or bad it is a fact.)
888s performance was under fire at TWS (possibly due to racing in higher temperature weather. (around 80-86 degrees) This is cause for concern.
What happens at 95 - 100?
Toyo guy on the Left Coast has suggested "Way High" cold temps.
Most were fine with the RA1 for several reasons.
Hoosier SM tire was the other tire that was voted on by the BOD as the spec tire. It is a proven tire over several seasons an would be a cost effective alternative. It is an easy tire to manage and is fast & durable for most all drivers. The price is much cheaper than the R6 so don't keep saying it is a $200 tire. (If nothing else the HSM sort of gives the SM class a hole card in this deal.)
Reports are that SCCA is in communication with TOYO to work problems out. Right now SM is sort of in limbo until things are figured out. If the weather stays cool it is not as big a problem.
Need more actual tire testing data (especially from the South & West as temps climb through the Spring.
NASA is tied to TOYO more so than SCCA, but that also gives their people at the top in CA a reason to push TOYO for a solution. So that part is a good thing.
Most of all we ALL want the best for the SM class, so finding a solution to the problem is a must do.

--------------------
Mac Spikes
IPRESS Racing
MER
East Street Auto
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"To hell with you Gen. Sheridan...I 'll take Texas!"

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Any reports from MSRC?

--------------------
----------------
Z Brothers Racing / East Street Auto

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Did I say "jest"? Althought this tire deal might be comical I did mean jist.....I think!

No real report on tire wear yet. I expect the Yeti to give us some feedback in the morning.

--------------------
Mac Spikes
IPRESS Racing
MER
East Street Auto
SAFERACER
Hoosier
Carbotech
MotorSport Ranch
Cresson, Texas
"To hell with you Gen. Sheridan...I 'll take Texas!"

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motorrock
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quote:
Originally posted by Kent Carter:
quote:
Originally posted by motorrock:
quote:
Originally posted by Kent Carter:
data point: Hoosier SM6 tires are listed on the Texas Hoosier distributor's website for $161 plus shipping. I don't know if they are actually available.

There are plenty everywhere.....
How do you know this?
I'm a Hoosier dealer... [Smile]

--------------------
philstireservice.com
philstireservice@aol.com

Kent Carter Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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quote:
Originally posted by motorrock:
quote:
Originally posted by Kent Carter:
quote:
Originally posted by motorrock:
quote:
Originally posted by Kent Carter:
data point: Hoosier SM6 tires are listed on the Texas Hoosier distributor's website for $161 plus shipping. I don't know if they are actually available.

There are plenty everywhere.....
How do you know this?
I'm a Hoosier dealer... [Smile]
How many do they have in stock?

--------------------
Do I turn my 99 Hard S into a killerfast SM or seek a donor?

Casey Z Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Interesting pics on the main page. Notice the labels on them. Discuss...

http://smugshots.specmiata.com/main.php?g2_itemId=10725&g2_imageViewsIndex=1

http://smugshots.specmiata.com/main.php?g2_itemId=10718&g2_imageViewsIndex=1

http://smugshots.specmiata.com/main.php?g2_itemId=10722&g2_imageViewsIndex=1

--------------------
----------------
Z Brothers Racing / East Street Auto

Casey Z - 1.6 Kettle
MidDiv National #13

B Wilson Verified Driver Series Champ
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Back from Thunderhill Double National where we had a good showing with 4 podiums, one win and one pole for the team.

3/32 tires on 5-10 heat cycles (relatively cool weather) were the ticket. As far as wear, it looks like 3/32 would cord pretty soon after 10-12 cycles.

About the same setup and cold/hot pressures as RA-1. It took a lot of testing to come full circle. Some minor adjustments were required. All sets were stamped 08s.

shillerific! [Big Grin]

-bw

--------------------
Bruce Wilson
2010 Oregon Region Champ
2010 Monte Shelton Driver of the Year
2010 25 Hours of Thunderhill E3 and Under 2 liter Overall Champion
Oregon Region SM Class Advisor

Kent Carter Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Bruce... what does 'relatively cool' mean? 50's or 80's?

Our next National race will likely be in the upper 90's.

--------------------
Do I turn my 99 Hard S into a killerfast SM or seek a donor?

B Wilson Verified Driver Series Champ
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quote:
Originally posted by Kent Carter:
Bruce... what does 'relatively cool' mean? 50's or 80's?

Our next National race will likely be in the upper 90's.

Mid 70s on Saturday, colder than a witches elbow with a brass elbow pad on Sunday.

-bw

--------------------
Bruce Wilson
2010 Oregon Region Champ
2010 Monte Shelton Driver of the Year
2010 25 Hours of Thunderhill E3 and Under 2 liter Overall Champion
Oregon Region SM Class Advisor

Juan Pineda Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Back from Thunderhill National as well. I agree with Bruce that camber and pressures are essentially same as RA1. My target pressure was 38-40psi.

About tire wear, the thing you have to understand about 888's is that you can't just wail on stickers like you could RA1's. If you do, they will grain, and the life will be greatly reduced. Once they have grained, they won't get better.

What is graining? Here's what severe graining looks like on an 888 (my first set):

 -

 -

The key is the coarse circumferential lines, maybe 1/16-1/8" spacing. The pattern seems to by synchronized to the tread pattern, presumably because the tread deformation affects the graining. Here's a good writeup on it:

> http://insideracingtechnology.com/tirebkexerpt3.htm

I'm not sure what the optimum/minimum breakin process is. What I did with the set I ran last weekend is ran then gently for one session, ie >2:14 at Thunderhill, and driving them in a way where I felt like they were not slipping much. So gentle around T3 (off camber) where you usually get on the throttle. Gentle around T5a and T2 similarly. Very slow steering inputs rather than throwing the car. You can really feel how different stickers are vs. tires that have been broken in. Then I let them rest a day. Then a second breakin session with similarly gentle slipping, but quicker pace. Let rest again. Also started with 3/32" shave. I'm guessing that the thinner shave will be less susceptible to graining because it will have less tread deformation.

-Juan

--------------------
www.ArtOfRoadRacing.com Race Craft Clinic - Thunderhill - 30 Jan 2011

Jason Holland Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Juan,

Thanks for the info but if it takes two sessions to make these tires right, that is not acceptable. At least not to me.

Time will tell.

Jason

--------------------
Jason Holland
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Juan Pineda Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Jason, Are you saying that it takes two sessions to break in 888's, and where are you getting that? I don't yet know what is the minimum required. Could be one. I know it's not zero.

-Juan

--------------------
www.ArtOfRoadRacing.com Race Craft Clinic - Thunderhill - 30 Jan 2011

Jason Holland Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Juan,

I know nothing. Really. But based on your post above, you were saying that you took two break in sessions right? I was just saying that situation would not be acceptable if it was the case.

The idea of that amount of tire management makes me cringe.

Jason

--------------------
Jason Holland
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Juan Pineda Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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quote:
Originally posted by Jason Holland:
I know nothing. Really. But based on your post above, you were saying that you took two break in sessions right?

Jason, you misunderstood. First sentence I wrote about breakin: "I'm not sure what the optimum/minimum breakin process is."

Look I'm just trying to figure it out as best I can, and sharing what I know, and what don't know. Better not to get worked up over stuff you don't know about.

-Juan

--------------------
www.ArtOfRoadRacing.com Race Craft Clinic - Thunderhill - 30 Jan 2011

Jason Holland Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Believe me, I'm not worked up. [Smile]

I think I understood you. I was just commenting that I hope it doesn't take two sessions to make them last.

sorry for the confusion.

--------------------
Jason Holland
Semi-interested civilian

pat slattery Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Can all the grooves be shaved away, and if so do you have any tire life left?

Ra1's you could shave down to 1 - 2/32 and still get some life out of them if you broke them in easy.

Pat

--------------------
keeping the faith for the 1.6

Arrow Karts

Jason Holland Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Pat,

You can't get rid of all the grooves as I understand it.

--------------------
Jason Holland
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Juan,
For what it's worth, I read your post the same way Jason did, and had the same concern about two break-in periods. It is hard enough to do one break-in properly and be ready to race.
I haven't run them yet, either. Thanks for the information.
wheel

B Wilson Verified Driver Series Champ
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I scrubbed my 2/32 in for about 6 laps, let them sit overnight, then flogged them in a qaulifying session, then raced, then qualified and raced again. They look like they have at least another weekend in them. Like I said in the other T-hill thread, 3/32 is probably the optimal for speed vs. wear. I won't be shaving to 2/32 anymore this season as I will have plenty of practice sesssions and 2 sets of 5-7 heat cycle tires that will get me through the next several months if I buy another set soon.

I'll be surprised if I need to buy more than 2 additional sets (4-5 total) for the season. I'm not sure how this is so different than the RA-1s.
But we have yet to race in hot temps, so who knows.

-bw

P.S. Tire Shoppe 3/32 shave is shallower than 3/32 AIM Shave. AIM is about 1/32 more tread, i.e. I would prefer a 2/32 AIM or a 3/32 Tire Shoppe shave.

--------------------
Bruce Wilson
2010 Oregon Region Champ
2010 Monte Shelton Driver of the Year
2010 25 Hours of Thunderhill E3 and Under 2 liter Overall Champion
Oregon Region SM Class Advisor

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never mind.

Danny Steyn Verified Driver
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OK

I am going to jump in here again, despite being asked to "sit out" after my "positive" reports on the R888's after using them at PBIR National, Sebring National, Road Atlanta SARRC, and VIR SARRC + 2 x ECR's.

Guys, you are just going to have to do your homework. Everyone is jumping on the bandwagon, some without a lot of data to back it up, and some are jumping on the bandwagon without EVER having driven the new tire.

This tire is different. How different? Not sure yet. Only have about 10 -15 hours on these tires total.

My first impressions were not great. With high track temps and a very abrasive new surface at PBIR, I experienced the same graining shown above, but I did wail on the tires from the start. I did not heat cycle them. Just drove it to the max immediately and paid the price. Learned a lesson. Do not do that again!

Next time out I played with tire pressures. More than 10 #s of range. Got some real world feedback. Front tires at low pressures turn in better than Hoosiers, but car wallows a bit through the turns. At low pressures center of tire wears first - WEIRD but true. At high pressures car runs freer and top speeds on 5th gear straights show up to a 1-1/2mph improvement

Played a lot. By the time we got to VIR we were pretty hooked up. Track was fast. Temps in the mid 60's to 70's. Some turns had been shaved and patches had rhino lining sprayed on so grip in some turns was better than before.

Cannot say how much the new surface helped but I saw better min. speeds on the data. Tires had several heat cycles from Sebring and RA. Immediately in the first session on Test day I was up to speed, and faster than I had gone on RA-1's before.

As I said in my other post, I ran 5 x 30 minute test sessions, 2 x 10 minute practices, 3 x 15 minute qualifiers (getting best times around lap 4) and then ran 1 x 30 minute SARRC and 2 x 1-1/2 hour ECR's with my fastest laps at the end of each race, despite over filling fuel tanks in both ECR's (extreme case in last ECR), so lap times were NOT the result of lightened car. In fact my HEAVY ECR race times at the end of 90 minutes were in some cases better than my light weight qualifying times.

Tires going off - slowing lap times

SO in my opinion, with experience and setup, MY lap times did NOT go off by the 1/2 to 1-1/2 seconds per lap as reported by some. In fact my times got better. Maybe I just suck at the beginning of the race, and maybe I suck at qualifying.

Accelerated Tire Wear

After PBIR I would have agreed that the tire was going to be an expensive wear item. Now I am not so sure. I seem to have decent wear from my tires. For me around 1 weekend per set if you do a heavy weekend - 2-1/2 hours of testing, 1 hour of practice and qualifying, and 3 hours of racing with full tanks. Maybe 1-1/2 weekends on a regular weekend. I am guessing around 10 heat cycles. But I have an open mind on this - will pay close attention.


In summary.

I am just suggesting to all that this tire, like ANY other tire, takes some getting used to, and it will have its own quirks, diosyncrasies, and its own wear pattern and behaviour that we all have to learn.

Try it - you might like it!!!! [Wink]

PS. I am a very principled person and if you dont like my principles ............ well then...... I guess I will just have to change them!!! [duck]

As such I reserve the right to completely change my mind at anytime!! [duck]

--------------------
Danny
http://www.dannysteyn.com
http://www.adeptstudios.com
OPM Autosports | Traqmate | Rossini Racing Engines
2010 June Sprints Champ, 2010 ARRC SMX Champ
2009 SARRC Champ, 2009 SEDiv ECR Champ, 2009 FES Champ
2008 SEDiv ECR Champ

skrzastek
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Danny- What where the tires shaved too (if anything)?

--------------------
#91 SSM

Danny Steyn Verified Driver
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4/32" as I recall - Tom chime in if incorrect.

--------------------
Danny
http://www.dannysteyn.com
http://www.adeptstudios.com
OPM Autosports | Traqmate | Rossini Racing Engines
2010 June Sprints Champ, 2010 ARRC SMX Champ
2009 SARRC Champ, 2009 SEDiv ECR Champ, 2009 FES Champ
2008 SEDiv ECR Champ

Kent Carter Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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quote:
Originally posted by Danny Steyn:
OK

I am going to jump in here again, despite being asked to "sit out" after my "positive" reports on the R888's after using them at PBIR National, Sebring National, Road Atlanta SARRC, and VIR SARRC + 2 x ECR's.

Guys, you are just going to have to do your homework. Everyone is jumping on the bandwagon, some without a lot of data to back it up, and some are jumping on the bandwagon without EVER having driven the new tire.

This tire is different. How different? Not sure yet. Only have about 10 -15 hours on these tires total.

My first impressions were not great. With high track temps and a very abrasive new surface at PBIR, I experienced the same graining shown above, but I did wail on the tires from the start. I did not heat cycle them. Just drove it to the max immediately and paid the price. Learned a lesson. Do not do that again!

Next time out I played with tire pressures. More than 10 #s of range. Got some real world feedback. Front tires at low pressures turn in better than Hoosiers, but car wallows a bit through the turns. At low pressures center of tire wears first - WEIRD but true. At high pressures car runs freer and top speeds on 5th gear straights show up to a 1-1/2mph improvement

Played a lot. By the time we got to VIR we were pretty hooked up. Track was fast. Temps in the mid 60's to 70's. Some turns had been shaved and patches had rhino lining sprayed on so grip in some turns was better than before.

Cannot say how much the new surface helped but I saw better min. speeds on the data. Tires had several heat cycles from Sebring and RA. Immediately in the first session on Test day I was up to speed, and faster than I had gone on RA-1's before.

As I said in my other post, I ran 5 x 30 minute test sessions, 2 x 10 minute practices, 3 x 15 minute qualifiers (getting best times around lap 4) and then ran 1 x 30 minute SARRC and 2 x 1-1/2 hour ECR's with my fastest laps at the end of each race, despite over filling fuel tanks in both ECR's (extreme case in last ECR), so lap times were NOT the result of lightened car. In fact my HEAVY ECR race times at the end of 90 minutes were in some cases better than my light weight qualifying times.

Tires going off - slowing lap times

SO in my opinion, with experience and setup, MY lap times did NOT go off by the 1/2 to 1-1/2 seconds per lap as reported by some. In fact my times got better. Maybe I just suck at the beginning of the race, and maybe I suck at qualifying.

Accelerated Tire Wear

After PBIR I would have agreed that the tire was going to be an expensive wear item. Now I am not so sure. I seem to have decent wear from my tires. For me around 1 weekend per set if you do a heavy weekend - 2-1/2 hours of testing, 1 hour of practice and qualifying, and 3 hours of racing with full tanks. Maybe 1-1/2 weekends on a regular weekend. I am guessing around 10 heat cycles. But I have an open mind on this - will pay close attention.


In summary.

I am just suggesting to all that this tire, like ANY other tire, takes some getting used to, and it will have its own quirks, diosyncrasies, and its own wear pattern and behaviour that we all have to learn.

Try it - you might like it!!!! [Wink]

PS. I am a very principled person and if you dont like my principles ............ well then...... I guess I will just have to change them!!! [duck]

As such I reserve the right to completely change my mind at anytime!! [duck]

I hope you were joking about someone asking you not to post positive impressions. One of the purple-pushing Deliverance types from the flyover states where every grocery store has a Hoosier truck that rotates your tires free and has a crusty old man who gives you shopping cart weight distribution help and a 'happy ending'?

Your Sebring/VIR information looks opposite of ours: Not good in the first races and better in the later race. We thought they looked pretty decent in the first races and awful in the second. The difference? You went from warm ambient/track temps to cool. We went from cool to what some in this country would call hot. We are concerned because our two data points point to hotter=badderer. By the time the May race comes around and the mercury is playing with the 90 to 100 mark and track temps of 150, we may be in trouble.

We will see, but the VERY LEAST Toyo owes us is advice! Speaking of advice, when you say high and low pressures, can you give us a couple of numbers to scratch our chins over? 25 like the Toyo data might suggest? 45 like some of the groundpounders use?

Thanks for the excellent input, Danny!

--------------------
Do I turn my 99 Hard S into a killerfast SM or seek a donor?

Danny Steyn Verified Driver
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We have tried cold pressures ranging from 20's to 30's. Ended with Hot Temps on different tracks ranging from low 30's to mid 40's.

And yes we need some advice and response from Toyo.

And yes I am waiting to see how hot ambient temps affect the wear on a non-abrasive track. (already have experience on a hot highly abrasive track)

Summer at RA/ Sebring/Homestead should give us some decent data points

--------------------
Danny
http://www.dannysteyn.com
http://www.adeptstudios.com
OPM Autosports | Traqmate | Rossini Racing Engines
2010 June Sprints Champ, 2010 ARRC SMX Champ
2009 SARRC Champ, 2009 SEDiv ECR Champ, 2009 FES Champ
2008 SEDiv ECR Champ

Jason Holland Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Wheels are turning behind the scenes. Hopefully we'll have some more information soon.

Jason

--------------------
Jason Holland
Semi-interested civilian

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Kent why the Purple Hate? It is well known Casey is a cheapskate and is always for the deal. I can understand not having faith in my opinion, but Casy and his ALL AMERICAN image cannot be doubted! [Big Grin]

--------------------
Mac Spikes
IPRESS Racing
MER
East Street Auto
SAFERACER
Hoosier
Carbotech
MotorSport Ranch
Cresson, Texas
"To hell with you Gen. Sheridan...I 'll take Texas!"

LOREN WALLACE IS MY HERO!

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I have to admit concern as to another take on the issues addressed in this thread and its predecessors. That is the simple matter of safety. My own experience is that the tires while new (at least new with 3/32 shaving) ran and "stuck" extremely well. They seem more predictable than the RA-1.
As indicated by others, the problem comes with heat cycles. I am not as concerned by wear of the threads as I am by the severe loss of adhesion with road surfaces after 5-9 heat cycles.
While our tires, after initial break in use at California speedway, had lots of remaining thread, they simply would not grip the track. Others compain about weeds in the grill, but I feel that is a serious issue. While running the tires with excellent thread showing, the grip was simply gone after, in my case, 6 heat cycles. The resultant driving style had to closely resemble racing in the wet.
These tires are required for Spec Miata at this time, and given the lack of grip, it's only a matter of time before the skill of any given driver under racing conditions is inadaquate to compensate for the loss of adhesion. The expression of concerns on this forum and otherwise attest to the problem. I would think this would be, and should be, a great concern for SCCA, NASA and TOYO. A liability claim on the basis of the Spec Tire performance issues could create a huge blow for these organzations and Spec Miata racing as a whole.
I'm sure someone will asume this is a "Chicken Little" comment, but I do feel it is an issue that needs to be incorporated in the discussions as to the proper solution for the problem.

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quote:
Originally posted by IPRESS:
Kent why the Purple Hate? It is well known Casey is a cheapskate and is always for the deal. I can understand not having faith in my opinion, but Casy and his ALL AMERICAN image cannot be doubted! [Big Grin]

It's easy to poke fun at the evangelists who promise a Hoosier truck to be at every race and "everlasting tire life at no cost to anyone who will accept the Purple" when you and I both know it's not true. Our Hoosier guy went bankrupt last year... no truck, no tires, no support... Got a new one this year, rather nice guy, too.

I just like poking at 'em. [Smile]

--------------------
Do I turn my 99 Hard S into a killerfast SM or seek a donor?

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quote:
Originally posted by cert24:
I have to admit concern as to another take on the issues addressed in this thread and its predecessors. That is the simple matter of safety. My own experience is that the tires while new (at least new with 3/32 shaving) ran and "stuck" extremely well. They seem more predictable than the RA-1.
As indicated by others, the problem comes with heat cycles. I am not as concerned by wear of the threads as I am by the severe loss of adhesion with road surfaces after 5-9 heat cycles.
While our tires, after initial break in use at California speedway, had lots of remaining thread, they simply would not grip the track. Others compain about weeds in the grill, but I feel that is a serious issue. While running the tires with excellent thread showing, the grip was simply gone after, in my case, 6 heat cycles. The resultant driving style had to closely resemble racing in the wet.
These tires are required for Spec Miata at this time, and given the lack of grip, it's only a matter of time before the skill of any given driver under racing conditions is inadaquate to compensate for the loss of adhesion. The expression of concerns on this forum and otherwise attest to the problem. I would think this would be, and should be, a great concern for SCCA, NASA and TOYO. A liability claim on the basis of the Spec Tire performance issues could create a huge blow for these organzations and Spec Miata racing as a whole.
I'm sure someone will asume this is a "Chicken Little" comment, but I do feel it is an issue that needs to be incorporated in the discussions as to the proper solution for the problem.

What pressures were you running? That was certainly the case when we were running the higher pressures (45-47), and why we went back to the lower pressures. I still can't understand why we would get the recommendation to run that high of pressure when the max pressure is 51. Could be a dangerous situation exceeding the max???

-bw

--------------------
Bruce Wilson
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quote:
Originally posted by cert24:
I have to admit concern as to another take on the issues addressed in this thread and its predecessors. That is the simple matter of safety. My own experience is that the tires while new (at least new with 3/32 shaving) ran and "stuck" extremely well. They seem more predictable than the RA-1.
As indicated by others, the problem comes with heat cycles. I am not as concerned by wear of the threads as I am by the severe loss of adhesion with road surfaces after 5-9 heat cycles.
While our tires, after initial break in use at California speedway, had lots of remaining thread, they simply would not grip the track. Others compain about weeds in the grill, but I feel that is a serious issue. While running the tires with excellent thread showing, the grip was simply gone after, in my case, 6 heat cycles. The resultant driving style had to closely resemble racing in the wet.
These tires are required for Spec Miata at this time, and given the lack of grip, it's only a matter of time before the skill of any given driver under racing conditions is inadaquate to compensate for the loss of adhesion. The expression of concerns on this forum and otherwise attest to the problem. I would think this would be, and should be, a great concern for SCCA, NASA and TOYO. A liability claim on the basis of the Spec Tire performance issues could create a huge blow for these organzations and Spec Miata racing as a whole.
I'm sure someone will asume this is a "Chicken Little" comment, but I do feel it is an issue that needs to be incorporated in the discussions as to the proper solution for the problem.

I was running a practice session with a set on it's 6th heat cycle that started at 3/32", and experienced exactly the same thing. They still had tread remaining across the tire, so I thought they would still be adequate.

I ended up coming in early in the session, as the tires were so bad I wasn't getting any useful data, knew the track well and didn't need to throw the car off the road for no reason.

Those tires went to the junk bin.

--------------------
James York


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Send all those tires that you don't like my way. [Smile] I'll use them.

James and cert24, I'll second Bruce's request for tire pressures. Also what bump spacing/ride height were you running?

I suspect those that are severely dissatisfied with 888's are actually struggling with setup, not the tire itself.

-Juan

--------------------
www.ArtOfRoadRacing.com Race Craft Clinic - Thunderhill - 30 Jan 2011

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Oh, I'll take all those tires too!

The track record was set on nearly bald tires at the Thunderhill double national last weekend.

-bw

--------------------
Bruce Wilson
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Bruce,

Hey, I got dibs! [Smile] BTW, those bald tires may have a lot more life in them than you expect. I found my first set of 888's lasted quite a while after I wore off all the tread.

-Juan

--------------------
www.ArtOfRoadRacing.com Race Craft Clinic - Thunderhill - 30 Jan 2011

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quote:
Originally posted by B Wilson:
Oh, I'll take all those tires too!

The track record was set on nearly bald tires at the Thunderhill double national last weekend.

-bw

The track record at Sebring was also set on old tires. I was only able to run one more session before the left rear was to the cord.

--------------------
2010 ARRC Champion
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quote:
Originally posted by Juan Pineda:
Send all those tires that you don't like my way. [Smile] I'll use them.

James and cert24, I'll second Bruce's request for tire pressures. Also what bump spacing/ride height were you running?

I suspect those that are severely dissatisfied with 888's are actually struggling with setup, not the tire itself.

-Juan

The pressure across different sessions were varied, but we settled between 36-39 psi hot depending on when and where.

The car is not running on the bump stops and set up is handled by the man who put Blake on the front row at the Runoffs 2 out of the last 3 years. None of the tires are getting overworked on a particular corner, and wear across the tires is even.

At a race in cool weather, the car was fast within 0.2 secs of fastest lap, consistent, and tire wear ok. It got warm, went to a more abrasive track, and the tires wore a bunch and seemed more subject to loss of grip with use.

Who knows, maybe there is some magic totally different set-up from RA-1s and we are still stuck in the past. But, my belief is that as summer roles around, more folks that really utilize the limits of the tires will experience the same thing. Maybe not all, but my guess is more than have now.

--------------------
James York


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quote:
Originally posted by Juan Pineda:
Bruce,

Hey, I got dibs! [Smile] BTW, those bald tires may have a lot more life in them than you expect. I found my first set of 888's lasted quite a while after I wore off all the tread.

-Juan

Two of the tires were pretty thin, the other two I took because I knew fellow drivers were desperate for tires because of the wear and might come looking. So I sold them (too cheaply me thinks) to another driver really consuming his tire supply quickly. So too late.

--------------------
James York


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quote:
Originally posted by Juan Pineda:
Send all those tires that you don't like my way. [Smile] I'll use them.

James and cert24, I'll second Bruce's request for tire pressures. Also what bump spacing/ride height were you running?

I suspect those that are severely dissatisfied with 888's are actually struggling with setup, not the tire itself.

-Juan

Yeah Ol Yeti Saini doesn't know squat about setup. Them thar casings are just fine it's you no count crew chiefs and bad drivers messin'em up! [Big Grin]

--------------------
Mac Spikes
IPRESS Racing
MER
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LOREN WALLACE IS MY HERO!

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I'm leaning toward ambient temps and driving style as being the important factors. Old mother Nature doesn't distinguish between mortal and near mortal [Smile]

I do know that some folks wore through theirs much quicker in same temps & conditions, yet laptimes were the same as other who didn't like bigger slip angles, but even those folks were getting more than 10 heat cycles out of a set of 3/32 -- at 75 degrees or less.

-bw

--------------------
Bruce Wilson
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quote:
Originally posted by Cajun Miata Man:
Who knows, maybe there is some magic totally different set-up from RA-1s and we are still stuck in the past.

James, RA1 and 888 behave differently. The 888's are much more sensitive to bump spacing. This is because of the stiffer sidewalls vs. RA1. If all you do is slap on 888's onto a previous RA1 setup, it is possible you will be disappointed, depending on the bump setup. That's why I asked about your bump spacing. Could you find out? Also, consider that 36psi hot might have be too low.

cert24, can you volunteer your tire pressures and bump spacing/ride height?

Thanks,
-Juan

--------------------
www.ArtOfRoadRacing.com Race Craft Clinic - Thunderhill - 30 Jan 2011

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quote:
Originally posted by B Wilson:
I do know that some folks wore through theirs much quicker in same temps & conditions, yet laptimes were the same as other who didn't like bigger slip angles, but even those folks were getting more than 10 heat cycles out of a set of 3/32 -- at 75 degrees or less.

I know of two confirmed cases of graining last weekend. Both drivers that wailed on stickers. I suspect that was a significant factor in tire life variability.

-Juan

--------------------
www.ArtOfRoadRacing.com Race Craft Clinic - Thunderhill - 30 Jan 2011

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All of you guys are correct, with a lot of input. Its all good and varies depending on track abrasion, set up, car weight, etc,etc. I received a call from crb board guy in Topeka, who said they have been inundated with calls and e-mails regarding "888". and are in contact with Toyo reguarding the problem. Did say they (SCCA) has a contract with Toyo, but something would be said in the April fastrack. Didn't say what though!!! I asked if it were possible to wave the 888 rule temporally until Toyo Could address the problem. The idea being keep guys and girls racing in a tough economy, without having an additional $600.00 + tire bill every weekend, to say nothing of the possibility of more metal to metal because your tires lost grip. We shall see, I have been through one set after 1 practice-1 qualifying, 1 race 23 laps and I'am in the back of the pack and have just as much fun as my friends up front!!! [thumbsup]

--------------------
PETER BOGART
REGION 34
"The home of Roebling Road"

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All, as the thread states, please include at least some of the following data!

Track
Heat Cycles
Total Laps
Total Time
Cold Pressure
Hot Pressure
DOT Codes
Camber
Pyro Readings
Shave
Lap times

-bw

--------------------
Bruce Wilson
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quote:
Originally posted by Juan Pineda:
quote:
Originally posted by Cajun Miata Man:
Who knows, maybe there is some magic totally different set-up from RA-1s and we are still stuck in the past.

James, RA1 and 888 behave differently. The 888's are much more sensitive to bump spacing. This is because of the stiffer sidewalls vs. RA1. If all you do is slap on 888's onto a previous RA1 setup, it is possible you will be disappointed, depending on the bump setup. That's why I asked about your bump spacing. Could you find out? Also, consider that 36psi hot might have be too low.

cert24, can you volunteer your tire pressures and bump spacing/ride height?

Thanks,
-Juan

Juan,

We are smart enough to know whether or not we ride the bumpstops. And yes, I know its a stiffer sidewall. We have a section piece of RA-1 and R-888 that we inspected. I know you don't know me, but I didn't fall off the turnip truck yesterday. And yes, we did pre-season testing working a variety of variables with multiple cars and didn't "just slap on some R-888s"

RE: Temperatures, I said we ran at different times in those ranges. I didn't say I ran at 36 psi and had the best results.

Hope your summer racing works well.

--------------------
James York


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quote:
Originally posted by Kent Carter:
]I hope you were joking about someone asking you not to post positive impressions. One of the purple-pushing Deliverance types from the flyover states where every grocery store has a Hoosier truck that rotates your tires free and has a crusty old man who gives you shopping cart weight distribution help and a 'happy ending'?

Your Sebring/VIR information looks opposite of ours: Not good in the first races and better in the later race. We thought they looked pretty decent in the first races and awful in the second. The difference? You went from warm ambient/track temps to cool. We went from cool to what some in this country would call hot. We are concerned because our two data points point to hotter=badderer. By the time the May race comes around and the mercury is playing with the 90 to 100 mark and track temps of 150, we may be in trouble.

We will see, but the VERY LEAST Toyo owes us is advice! Speaking of advice, when you say high and low pressures, can you give us a couple of numbers to scratch our chins over? 25 like the Toyo data might suggest? 45 like some of the groundpounders use?

Thanks for the excellent input, Danny!

For the record when I saw Danny's post I was concerned and sent him this PM:

"Who asked you to not give an honest opinion? That is very bad advice."

Danny replied and I will omit that as it was his communication to me and is private (but he didn't give up any names). I then replied with this:

"Just make sure you give your take on what you have found. Don't let others mute you. I have an opinion, but I am always looking for good data. Keep up the good work."

To that end, let's try to get some more data in this thread. Contrary to the belief of some, while I have a preference in tires I am really interested in making sure the class has a tire that will perform in a way that allows us to keep the numbers up and the class competitive. That is it. I will let others post rantings about truth, etc. I have stated my agenda...

BTW, as Mac pointed out I do live in a fly over state and I am as cheap as they come. I am ok with that. There are plenty (if not the majority of the class) that are also running on a budget and make that a big priority.

Let's just gather some data for the CRB/SCCA/NASA. I think they will find it useful.

If you want to go nuts on purple vs whatever, Lance opened a thread for that too. Feel free to beat you head against the wall there. Mac, that goes for you too! [Big Grin]

--------------------
----------------
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cnj
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I was the first poster in this thread - and while I don't have additional data to add, I am interested in what data might be useful to others as I race this weekend at Eagles Canyon double regional (its first SCCA race). I am currently planning on running one race with RA-1's (3rd cycle 2/32") and one race with R888's (4th cycle on three corners and 6th cycle on forth corner).

Weather is expected to be mid 70's. Track has had parts recently resurfaced.

For those reading recent postings, my 6th cylce tire is one I bought from James York at TWS as a 4 cycle tire (James apparently now regrets not squeezing me for more money.. LOL). I ran one race on it (as I had killed a 3 cycle R888) and did indeed find it greasy as James suggests. James car is set up with more camber than mine and his tire wear was definitely more even than mine. This higher camber also tracks with the more reasonable tire wear I saw on a winning car. All our cars were set up carefully by real pros. Therefore what was interesting about the TWS weekend is that James found he had to throw off his tires after 4-5 cycles even though the tire wear was OK, while I could not get to 4 cylces without extreme tire wear.

My observations:

1. Those who have had reasonable tire wear seem all to have scrubbed their tires gently to avoid the graining on a first short cycle. Danny may or may not be an exception to this.

2. Higher camber seems to work well for even tread wear, at least on the several cars I noted. It would help greatly for people to offer up their camber settings in the interest of this communal learning exercise about the new tires. Sometimes paddock secretiveness is like a spy thriller. Sheesh.

3. High temperatures seem to exacerbate tire wear on the R888. We will be able to confirm/contradict this for sure in Texas at the TMS Double National in May. I'm bringing 2 new sets of tires.

4. The R888's as stickers seem to be immediately very fast but grain quickly and at least in hot temps, the lap times slow down after 4 laps. Take a look at MyLaps for the TWS race and see that nearly all of the fast times were done in the first 3 laps of qualifying. I am told by a World Challenge driver that this has been their experience on the R888's as well. Time will tell but I am very concerned that if this proves to be true, those wanting to be at the front will have to use a new set for each qualifying.

5. I am sure that there is a better way to run these tires, but I am deeply frustrated at having to spend several thousand dollars to figure it out. I don't mind spending money to go fast, I should not have to spend money just to learn how to not spend money. If we are going to be forced to use these tires (probable) then I would like to see Toyo sponsor an exercise in studying the problems (hiring some skilled pros to test tires and multiple car set ups) and then publicizing the results. I might be accused of bias simply because I know them well, but Eric Foss and Jason Saini could serve this function very well here in the south (for those that don't know, they work together at Team MER), while perhaps another crew could be hired to do testing in cooler climes.

Craig J

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James,

I'm still interested to know your bump spacing. Something about your car (you are not alone) seems to work significantly worse than some others, so I'm trying to understand the differences. We can't know unless we compare objectively.

Thanks,
-Juan

--------------------
www.ArtOfRoadRacing.com Race Craft Clinic - Thunderhill - 30 Jan 2011

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Could it be that the heavier 99+ cars wear R888s quicker than 1.6 cars?

 
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