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Author Topic: R888 Data Thread
volante Verified Driver
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Thats the hope [Smile]

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volante

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quote:
Originally posted by Juan Pineda:
James,

I'm still interested to know your bump spacing. Something about your car (you are not alone) seems to work significantly worse than some others, so I'm trying to understand the differences. We can't know unless we compare objectively.

Thanks,
-Juan


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Juan,
maybe different driving styles lead to your longer tire life. (lower slip angles?)

Tim W

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Maybe, maybe, maybe... The world is full of maybe's. We need to separate out what is from the maybe's. Need facts/data for that.

Acutually about James and cert24, they were complaining about drivability. That's what I was trying to understanding about their cases, and why I was asking for information from them.

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Juan Pineda Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Duplicate post.

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www.ArtOfRoadRacing.com Race Craft Clinic - Thunderhill - 30 Jan 2011

Steven Holloway Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Juan,
My 1.6 was wearing tires just as quickly as my buddy's '99 pitted next to me. The W/E @ TWS, all cars except for Matt and Aaron had heavy tire wear.

--------------------
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Juan Pineda Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Duplicate post. Silly iPhone.

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cert24 Verified Driver
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Sorry for the info delay. As to specifics producing the results described, Cold pressures 30-32. On my 1.6 the bump stop spacing exceeds 1 inch. 99's ran similar pressures. Not on the bump stops either, but I don't know where to boys set theit height limits. Of course the 1.6 have the 99 shock hat conversion.
Tracks involved were California Speedway and Willow Springs.
Hope that helps.

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Hey cert24,

Thanks for the reply. Were you taking hot pressures after every session? And if so, what were they?

-Juan

--------------------
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Juan Pineda Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Steven,

The fact that matt and aaron enjoyed better wear than everyone else is proof that better tire wear is possible. The obvious question is what were they doing differently than others?

The first thing I would ask is what pace were they running vs the podium cars? Second, what did they do to break in their tires?

-juan

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Juan they were the podium cars. Keith V & Yeti were in the same pack for most of the race. Yeti has a theory on why they had less wear. Besides Sideshow and Fumes are a couple of Austin folks and any info from them is always suspect. Austin is the Haight Ashbury of the new century! [rolling on floor laughin]

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Juan Pineda Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Hey mac,

Thanks for the reply. So we know they weren't slacking.

Then second question: what did they do to break in their tires? I don't suppse they read this forum and would reply themselves?

-Juan

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Rob Burgoon Verified Driver
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Track: Cal Speedway 4 races and qual
WSIR 2 races and qual
BW 25 CCW 2 races, qual, practice
Heat Cycles: 16
Total Laps: ?
Total Time: 7 hours
Cold Pressure: ?
Hot Pressure: 40-43
DOT Codes: forgot to look
Camber: LF, RF, RR, not enough. LR ok
Pyro Readings: LF even across tire. LR 20 degrees hotter inside
Shave: none (6/32)
Lap times: wild
Driving style: Not afraid to slide but trying not to (except for WSIR turn 2). Driving the piss out of the car to make up for missing horsepower.

Driver Comments on tire feel: At BW 25, on the way though the kink to star mazda, these felt much better than the full tread stickers I put on for Sunday. Not sure if it was tread squirm or low pressure or both. Not sure if full tread stickers are faster since I had Angela in front of me.

Other comments that you feel are relevant:
Never been on RA-1, only Nitto NT-01. My Nittos got twice the life as this. These two brand tires aren't anything like each other.

Also, is this the groove of doom forming?

LR
 -

RF
 -

RR
 -

LF
 -

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Rob Burgoon Verified Driver
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Track: BW 25 CCW 1 8/10ths hardship lap, 30 minute cooldown 1.3 races
Heat Cycles: 3
Total Laps: ?
Total Time: 40 minutes
Cold Pressure: 33
Hot Pressure: 40
DOT Codes: forgot to look
Camber: LF, RF, RR, not enough. LR ok
Pyro Readings: none
Shave: none (6/32)
Lap times: traffic
Driving style: Not afraid to slide but trying not to. Driving the piss out of the car to make up for missing horsepower.

Driver Comments on tire feel: At BW 25, on the way though the kink to star mazda, old tires felt better than these. Not sure if it was tread squirm or low pressure or both, but the car still felt funny there towards the end of the race when pressures were at 40 or higher.

Other comments that you feel are relevant:
No obvious graining with only the 1 lap break-in and then a race. I wasn't holding back in the race.


RR
 -

LR
 -

RF
 -

LF
 -

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Mike Colangelo Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Rob, how often do you rotate your tires?

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quote:
Originally posted by Mike Colangelo:
Rob, how often do you rotate your tires?

Umm... I think I rotated just before the last two races at Buttonwillow.

I am going to flip the tires and add neg camber everywhere but the LR.

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Juan Pineda Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Rob,

Tires look pretty good.

How much camber were you running? How much toe?

-Juan

--------------------
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J.D.
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How about some reports from Atlanta?

I'm interested in loaded side wear, new vs scuffs, from what shave depth and what psi did they like if willing to provide.

Rob Burgoon Verified Driver
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quote:
Originally posted by Juan Pineda:
Rob,

Tires look pretty good.

How much camber were you running? How much toe?

-Juan

The Cal Speedway races had some bad toe out in the right rear, but the rest were 0 toe all around with something like -3.2 LF -3.0 RF, -2.4 LR, -2.2 RR.

Ride height is something like 4.2" up front, 4.5" in the back.

The only part of this that's intentional is the 0 toe, the rest I simply didn't have time to make perfect, especially since I expected to change it after a few races.

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Mogren
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What is the zero scrub toe setting?? With that much camber it must be at least 1/8 in out all around??
Does anyone have the actual numbers?
FWIW back when the Kumho came out, they acted the same as the 8s. Pretty fast until over driven. Than, nothing but wrecks. The hot tire got greasy and simply would not turn.
The 8s sound as tho they need to be carefully driven, without abuse. no fun at all...
MM

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Rob Burgoon Verified Driver
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Zero scrub toe setting, never heard of that. Please elaborate [Smile]

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Mogren
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Zero scrub setting is where the toe and the camber result in a straight roll between the two front or two rear, tires. If the tire is tipped 4 degrees, you have to steer it away from the tip to result in zero lateral thrust.
More camber needs more toe out to get a zero thrust. It also depends a bit on tire pressure.
MM

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Rob Burgoon Verified Driver
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Of my two sets, here are the worst 4. 7 hours on some of these, 10 hours on the others. Not sure which, what or where.

 -
 -
 -
 -

No change in setup from my earlier posts. I have been too busy and lazy to mess with it.

The slicks don't grip worth beans. Not sure if I have cycled them out (full tread), or if I have gotten into a different compound, but they were making me really nervous in traffic. I am not certain, but I think performance had been sagging for a while and then took a dive.

No cords anywhere.

I just bought a new set of RA1 shaved to 4/32. After a 3 hour enduro and a 30 minute race, they seem to be down to 2.5/32 or thereabouts. Hopefully the wear will slow as they get thinner.

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Rob Burgoon Verified Driver
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At the last event I took my best 4 R888s from the 2 sets with 7-10 hours on them. These started full tread and are down to 2 or 1 32nd.

A set of shaved RA-1s with around 4 hours on them were 2.2-2.5 seconds faster on a 2:20 track with lots of medium speed corners. The tire change gave me a win.

It seems that if you start from full tread, R888 WILL cycle out.

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Rich Verified Driver
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Here are my thoughts. I'll try to be organized.

*Setup*

1.6l car

~2.5 degrees negative front, ~2.7-3 degrees negative rear, zero toe, 50% cross.

I've been trying to come in around 41-43 psi hot on my gauge.

*Life*

- 4/32" shave got 7-8 sessions. 3 of the sessions were races, the rest were qualifying and test/practice sessions. 2 of the tires are usable for 1-2 more sessions and 2 are usable for a test session but are close to cording. None of them are raceworthy at this point.

- 3/32" shave getting 4-5 sessions before I'm taking them out of "raceworthy" service.

*Wear patterns*

- I'm seeing very even wear over the width of the tread on the rear tires. I'm wearing the insides a little bit, but still not seeing any reason to run less camber from the pyro or the wear.

- The fronts form the groove of doom pretty badly if I don't rotate them. I am going to start rotating the fronts to the rear every time. I tend to wear rear tires faster but more evenly on my 1.6.

- I haven't noticed any difference in wear, feel, or performance running them backwards.


Overall, I think they require more attention than the RA1 but can be made to last a similar amount of time on track. The hottest air temps I've run them in were ~87 degrees with 95 degree track temps and they didn't seem to wear any different. The big difference in the hotter temps was that I really had to manage the tires over the course of the race. In the cooler temps (55-70 degrees F), I could pretty much push whenever I wanted as hard as I wanted and they didn't seem to get much worse in terms of lap times. They start to get "greasy" when pushed but the lap times just don't bear it out. The greasyness just leads to the potential for more driving errors.

Anyway, throw that in the pot. I wouldn't be sad to see them go, but I wasn't thrilled with the RA1 either. The RA1 was more fun to race on because it let us push a lot harder for the whole race, but the tire management during the course of a race brings a very common element of racing in to the class, which isn't necessarily a bad thing in my opinion. Keep in mind that on the RA1's I was shaving to 3 and 2/32" depending on what I needed from the tires. I am definitely not someone who values life over performance and I often toss tires that are good for many more practice/qual sessions because I wouldn't trust them for a race. Currently leading MiDiv points standings with 4 national wins this year (blind squirrels find multiple nuts if they fall in a nutpile).

--------------------
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Rich,

Thanks for the report. What was your bump spacing? Or equivilently, ride height with which bump stops?

-Juan

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Rich Verified Driver
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I have the '99 shock hats, no FCM kit yet. Beats me on the ride height, but it's typical of what I see on other 1.6's.

--------------------
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Dr.Dan Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
V8, nice! And good for you too!

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well after running the r888 inthe last nasa event ay infineon, with the outside temps at 100 deg. I can tell you the R888 stinks. I could have run Ra-1's but chose 888's to see how they hold up in the real heat. We have not run these yet in high abient temps. I tried pressures all over the place. 28 cold, 33 cold, and 36 cold. the last being in the race on sun. at 3pm. those were the worse by far. I took that advice from our tire vendor. While it made sense to me , the results were worse. I ended with 44 hot and the worse handling car I have ever driven. It was al I could do to keep it on the track. The thoery was that to low a press. would cause the tire to build to much heat and thus lose grip. Fromthe seat of the pants prospective the car felt better throughout the run at the lower starting press of 28. Those would end up at 36-37. while I understand that a 6 lb. increase is optimal, They just didn't feel good at higher press. after about 4 laps. I just think that the way these are going to be. so watch out you guys as you try to push the car later in the races. Oh they like a higher ride height too.

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Lower pressures is what I have found to work also dan.

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We tried the R888 for the first time at Nelson Ledges and admittedly was prepared for the worst but had pleasant results.

Raced one heat in the rain and they were fast for us.

Raced the rest of the weekend 4 sessions, about 2 + hrs and the tires still look good, with minimal wear and no abnormalities. The temperature was not extreme with 80 being about as hot as it got but my driver liked the feel of the new tire.

So far so good, we will have to wait untill some 90 plus temps to see if we still like them. By the way we did not flip the tires but ran all 4 sessions on the car as we had started.

Pat

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B Wilson Verified Driver Series Champ
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I tried the higher pressures in a practice session at Thunderhill and was fearing for my life bigtime around t8. After about 3 laps I came in and bagged it for that session. Hot warm or cold, high pressures are not the way to go.

-bw

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andrew_anderson
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I recently ran some relatively new Rates at Rockinham 2-3 heat cylcles and they had absolutely no grip. I could go faster in the corners with my truck during the drive arounds than my miata could during the race. it was also 100 degrees out and track temp of 150+ hot pressures around 39-42

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V8, nice! And good for you too!

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I just wish the tire guys knew what they were talking about. I trust them, but results are results. Glad we are changing back. Pat just wait till it gets hot. the temp kill the grip. I actually think they are a danger to race on for less experienced racers.

--------------------
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andrew_anderson
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this is my experience:

what separates R comps from street tires is the level of grip 'fall off' as you increase heat cycles

a sporty street tire thats not an r compound will loose grip DRAMATICLY as it heat cycles out. this is what happened to me on some falken azenis. and this is the same thing that happend on the r888s.
is toyo selling fake r compounds?

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andrew_anderson
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might I add that the sporty street compounds generally do not last as many heat cycles as normal r compounds.

like you can get maybe 15-30 heat cyles off a toyo ra-1 or hoosier but these r888s your lucky to get 8 and that is just like the azenis that I used to have

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I ran the R888s at June Sprints, starting pressure around 26-27 PSI. Nice even wear, no fall off in any session. Temps were in the 80's. Tires were on their 3rd-7th heat cycle, started at 4/32. So far so good. Wider, stiffer sidewall tires need less air pressure on light cars apparently.

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V8, nice! And good for you too!

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Not according to the tire guy. Lower AP causes the tire to heat up more, building in excess of ten pounds during a race. That being said, I had poor results with a higher starting press..Hopefully we'll run hancooks next year in SFR.

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When I mentioned Hankooks in our "meeting" everyone laughed and no one took it seriously. Should have said something dan!

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Well, let's us SFR guys get together and agree on something before the tire poll comes out..I'm up for Hankooks....

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I ran 42/44 psi hot at the Sprints, no issues at all, tires were very good all weekend...

Very strange, I hated RA1's at high pressures and many loved them at 40... I am hearing more people I trust running low pressures with success, my car seems to do better with higher pressures. I also seem to get the death grove when running lower pressures. car feels great, but lap times are slower?
Jim

--------------------
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Dr. Dan-

Which bumpstops are you running? '99 or Fatcats? I've only run R888's with the Fatcats and haven't had any problems with R888's in any context or found any significant difference in lap times between R888's and RA1's, including on a very hot T Hill test day. After experimenting I settled on 43 hot, primarily for wear reasons. There has to be some good explanation for why some people hate the tires and others are problem free. [banghead]

JD

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quote:
Originally posted by JD Morris:

There has to be some good explanation for why some people hate the tires and others are problem free. [banghead]

JD

Budget?

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It really makes my week when nobody crashes into me.

Jeremy Pike
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So how did you 2 like driving on the Hankooks? Did they handle good? Get alot of heat cycles out of them?

I've heard some mention of them but have never been on a set myself.

JimEli Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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quote:
Originally posted by JD Morris:
There has to be some good explanation for why some people hate the tires and others are problem free. [banghead]

JD

It’s simple. People dislike change. The R-888 is different. They require testing and adjustments to optimize. Many of us don’t have the budget, time or ability to properly accomplish this. We also have different targets (long life vs. ultimate performance). We all want our tires to be as simple as a toaster (push bread in, wait, out pops toast). Some guys have figured out the R-888, either through proper experimentation or blind luck. Others simply pump them up to the “latest wisdom” and expect them to work, then act surprised with the result.

An observation of, “this tire has less grip”, or “this tire is slippery” is meaningless and practically useless. If we’re all using the same tire, it doesn’t matter if they have more, less or different grip than previously. It’s absolutely irrelevant and the comments offer little merit.

The R-888 seems more tolerant of varied pressured vs. grip than most tires. I have heard of cold pressures ranging from 20 to 45. Personally, I have experimented with 24-35, and found 26-28 yielding 36-40 hot producing the best grip. I suspect somebody is way off-base here.

The R-888 wears faster and seems to cycle out earlier than the RA-1. This shouldn’t surprise anyone as the RA-1 is legendary in this respect. Some competitors have complained of phenomenally high wear rates usually in concert with high ambient temperatures. I haven’t seen or experienced this. However, I will add that discussing ambient temperature absent track temperature leads to an incomplete picture.

I have found the tire is susceptible to developing the “grove-of-doom,” which prematurely renders them useless. I’ve seen this on several tires. I suspect pressure extremes have a lot to do with this. Tread design appears to be a factor and tire rotation and flipping might help delay onset also.

The factors of car weight, alignment (camber/toe), tire pressure, track temperature, track surface and shave depth need to be wisely considered. Rarely does one simple solution fit the bill.

[ 07-09-2009, 08:29 AM: Message edited by: JimEli ]

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B Wilson Verified Driver Series Champ
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I've found "The Groove of Doom" happens more with the medium pressures and less with lower pressures and much less with higher pressures. The pressure range that folks are running offers a lot of "choices" [Wink]

-bw

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Bruce Wilson
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Dan:
Not according to the tire guy. Lower AP causes the tire to heat up more, building in excess of ten pounds during a race. That being said, I had poor results with a higher starting press..Hopefully we'll run hancooks next year in SFR.

I forgot to mention, 26-27 psi was cold pressure. I saw the typical 6-8 psi increase coming off the track. IMO, for those experiencing less grip vs. RA-1's are overheating at least a portion (and probably only) of the tire.

Kent Carter Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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There is only one issue: COST, which is related to wear rates.

The tire performs well over all. I like the way it handles in the dry, but find it not so good in the wet.

A 'low-cost, entry-level' series like SM needs a long-wearing, forgiving tire. Period.

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Do I turn my 99 Hard S into a killerfast SM or seek a donor?

Cliffy Chains
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I am no expert in data, but I have done alot of it on the R888's for some of the top guys in SM.

This is my 2 cents on the debate:

Starting the R8's at higher cold pressure works good for heavier cars IE the 99 cars.
If track temp is 80-100 deg. a base line would be similar to:
1.6L (2285) 28/30 psi
1.8L (2385) 30/32 psi
99-00 (2450) 31/33 psi

If the track goes over 90 deg, (we see track temps as high as 120+ at some tracks) you drop pressures accordingly to the race length.
Sample --In a 1.6L with track temp at 115 deg. and a 30 min race it would be 26/24 psi base, the tires will not fall of as quickly, a ton more grip, but the only drawback is if you overheat them (230 deg +) they take too long to come back.

The problem alot of people find with the R8's is the straight line speed is not as great as the RA1, yet if you compare a 1/32 R8 and a 1/32 RA1 the are identical on 20+ straights at major tracks, problem is not enough of us want to trust the R8's when the get down that low.

The RA1 at 1/32 weighs less than the R8 at 2/32 (3/10 of a lb), even small changes in rotating mass can be seen in data. At Mid Ohio National race 2 years ago guys were digging RA1's out of the trash because they were faster, while infact it was the small weight difference between a 2/32 RA1 and a near corded RA1 that was the difference in the long straight aways there.

While I hear alot of people complaining about the R8's maybe it is because they have not spent enough time to figure them out, use that $1000 lap timer you have (Traqmate) and pick up a 1/2 second a lap, just from correct tire pressures.

Drago showed up a year or so ago and ran 34+psi cold, on the R8's, everyone thought he was nuts, now most anyone in a 99' starts at least 30+ cold.

Last I want to say alot of Track records for fastest lap time have been broken on R888's this last year, this is no accident, they were done by guys that have "figured out" the R8's.

The RA1's now currently sold are slightly different than the old RA1's from over a year ago, thus more testing and data again.

I say pick a tire, that is reasonably priced new, that lets the SM show its true potential (Hoosier), did I say that out loud?

Stick with the tire the class chooses, and get the manufacturer to sponsor the class even down to a regional level, more regional drivers than national (Hoosier)

Thats my 2 cents, it dont matter what I run I'm still pretty much down on power.

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BDR Motorsports, Autotechnik
Cliff Blanchard
Down on power 1.6
Sluggish overweight 99'

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You can check tire pressure?

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Good post Cliff.. We are Toyo for atleast two more years though.
I ran the Hoosiers on my 99 SSB car, I will tell you, we are all nuts... For the guys who think front runners would gain an advantage on Hoosiers... You could not be more incorrect. The front runners gain an advantage on a tire that is hard to drive to the limit, like the Toyo. I am convinced almost anyone can drive the Hoosier to the limit.

Jim

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Jim Drago
East Street Auto Salvage
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EAST STREET RACING

 
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