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Author Topic: What Head and Neck Restraint do you use?
Gibscreen Verified Driver Series Champ
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What Head and Neck Restraint do you use? Hans or other?

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Rob Gibson
RJ Racing
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Viet-Tam Luu
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SportCar recently had a review of 4 different units. The HANS looked simplest, easiest to use, and at least as effective if not more so than any other. It's certainly the most well-tested and most field-proven unit.

I bought mine 3 years ago and it's saved my neck once already when I stuffed my Evo hard into a tire wall at Infineon.

Good enough for F1, good enough for me.

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Viet-Tam Luu (a.k.a. "Tam")
SFR-SCCA #14 ITS
Director, SCCA San Francisco Region

Steven Holloway Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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If I didn't already own a Hans, I'd probably buy the Defendr. It looks like it's more comfortable on the shoulders, and easier to put on. But, not enough to buy one just for that.
S

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If you can't fix it with a hammer, it's got electrical problems.

cooleyjb
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quote:
Originally posted by Viet-Tam Luu:
SportCar recently had a review of 4 different units. The HANS looked simplest, easiest to use, and at least as effective if not more so than any other. It's certainly the most well-tested and most field-proven unit.

I bought mine 3 years ago and it's saved my neck once already when I stuffed my Evo hard into a tire wall at Infineon.

Good enough for F1, good enough for me.

2 things wrong here.

1. you say HANS is effective as any other.

IN a 0 degree impact that appears to be the case but in a 30 degree offset the numbers for some of the other devices are significantly better. I'd be wary of making a statement like you did.

2. You say if it's good enough for F1 it's good enough for you. Do you have a full containment system that doesn't allow your head to move laterally at all. Do you have the same belt moutning setup that allows the belts to be mounted directly behind the driver minimizing belt stretch? Just because something is good for F1 (or NASCAR for that matter) doesn't mean it's good for us. Most of us don't have the luxury of a purpose built racecar and those of us that do don't have the luxury of the latest safety 'package'. Yes the safety of a car is a package. Bits and pieces can help but one must look at the the big picture as well.

I own a HANS, DefNder and a Hybrid Pro so none of those choices really apply to me.

As for another poll. One could ask what HNR they would buy if they were going to buy one today. Or you could ask those who have bought a HNR in the last six months what they bought. Of course the poll will be heavily slanted in the direction of HANS. They are the people that were at the front of the wave making the sport safer for us.

Gatoratty Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Cooleyjb (sorry you don't use your name) where do you get the data that supports your 30 degree offset statement. You have made the same claim in other posts without disclosing your data source. This topic has been beaten to death soooo many times. You buy what you believe works the best. Also the poll does work for you because it doesn't ask what you own....it asks what you use (unless you use all of them.)

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Paul McLester

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cooley... 'significantly' implies a level of certainty that the fabricated test sled data can't meet. The numbers are not the same, but neither are the tests. There are no data suggesting that the differences in the numbers are either real or meaningful.

The presentation of the 'data' on the Hybrid Pro website would land the company huge fines if this was a FDA regulated medical device promoted in thsi fashion. It does look like a nicely made device, too bad they market it that way.

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Do I turn my 99 Hard S into a killerfast SM or seek a donor?

Keith in WA Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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quote:
Originally posted by Kent Carter:
There are no data suggesting that the differences in the numbers are either real or meaningful.

+1

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Keith Novak
(Will work for tires)

cooleyjb
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Here is the most complete set of numbers for HNR that I've seen. Jim over at Trackpedia has put a lot of time into compiling it into one place and showing where the data is from. Much is from mfrs. and an SAE paper.

http://www.racesafetydata.info/HNR.html

I didn't make any commments as to bashing any device in particular like some people have already done. I'm just saying make a more informed decision than the "If it's good enough for F1/Nascar it's good enough for me" or the "it 'looks' as effective as any other device"

All I've said is realize that there is data out there and that you should make an informed decision. In my other posts I've often said to not worry about little things like 2" belts vs. 3" belts and worry about things like belt architecture which FIA and HANS and DefNder all talk about. HANS and DefNder think it's important enough to put in their quick start guide. You all have read your quick start guides right?

As for the validity of the data. We can debate that too but that's probably best saved for another thread.

Bottom Line: Make an informed decision. Don't do something just because everyone else is doing it. And whatever you choose make sure that you set everything up so it can perform to it's maximum potential.

Oh and for which device do I use. The answer is, "it depends" on seat/helmet/vehicle.

Keith in WA Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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quote:
Originally posted by cooleyjb:
As for the validity of the data. We can debate that too but that's probably best saved for another thread.

Agreed. I did a bit of homework a while back on the SFI testing. If people want to discuss it in a rational, unbiased manner I'm game. Frequently it degenerates quickly and I don't feel like getting sucked into that.

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Keith Novak
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cooleyjb
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quote:
Originally posted by Keith in WA:
quote:
Originally posted by cooleyjb:
As for the validity of the data. We can debate that too but that's probably best saved for another thread.

Agreed. I did a bit of homework a while back on the SFI testing. If people want to discuss it in a rational, unbiased manner I'm game. Frequently it degenerates quickly and I don't feel like getting sucked into that.
Well we could instead debate oil viscosity and type, Or better yet how they chose the SM tire. [Wink]

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When I really want to go there, at my neighborhood watering hole there's no shortage of people willing to lecture me on why drag racing is better than road racing. [Roll Eyes]

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Keith Novak
(Will work for tires)

cooleyjb
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Do they at least serve Pike's Kilt Lifter? I so very much miss that from my days back in WA.

old dog
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I use a Hybrid because I can't get out of a miata without taking a Hans completely off

Kent Carter Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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quote:
Originally posted by cooleyjb:


http://www.racesafetydata.info/HNR.html


As for the validity of the data. We can debate that too but that's probably best saved for another thread.

Bottom Line: Make an informed decision. Don't do something just because everyone else is doing it. And whatever you choose make sure that you set everything up so it can perform to it's maximum potential.

Oh and for which device do I use. The answer is, "it depends" on seat/helmet/vehicle.

Again, if these were medical devices and were regulated by the FDA and a company represented the data in this manner, the fines would be large. I hope people realize that you can't compare devices by looking at the numbers in this table.

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Do I turn my 99 Hard S into a killerfast SM or seek a donor?

cooleyjb
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I'll bite.

How do you propose we compare devices.

Kent Carter Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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You do the tests in the same lab, using the same rig. You do multiple tests per device and you report the data as mean values with standard deviations and a statistical test for whether the differences are due to random chance or likely to be real. You also provide a sense of what is meaningful versus just 'numeric' by providing thresholds.

What you DON'T do is report data from different labs taken YEARS apart reporting some data points while hiding others. You don't report data without giving some sense of the repeatability or variability of the method so that unscrupulous people can imply that one device is better than another.

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Do I turn my 99 Hard S into a killerfast SM or seek a donor?

Keith in WA Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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I think you have to keep in mind that they're all trying to save your neck...and the base of your skull.

They're all doing their best, generating their best designs, a lot of data, and have at least one engineer with sled test experience but lots of other engineers in the field will disagree with some of the conclusions they draw and how they project that data in advertising.

Call that a gray area. You can't really say for sure based on the numbers they show what's really happening unless you too happen to be an expert on that pretty narrow field of expertise, in which case you'll probably scoff at the data.

What else do you have? Do you trust it? Is it comfortable? Comfortable safety gear is key in anything where you wear safety gear. Do you think you can get out of the car quickly? You have to weigh the variables and know there's no magic formula.

Some of the formulas that get portrayed as the magic formulas are pretty misleading when you look at them closely. They don't use magic formulas for roll cages either. Some methods of making them have benifits over others and their own disadvantages.

To quote the honorable Flava Flav...Don't believe the hype
~Keith

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Keith Novak
(Will work for tires)

cooleyjb
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Let me make sure I'm reading what both of you are saying correctly.

Kent- What it seems like to me is that you want a good statistical sample so you can minimize the outliers and get a good idea of the actual numbers we can find. However you are basically fine with the sled tests as an indicator of performance.

Keith- I'm not sure what you are saying. I think you are concerned with the way results are spun by the marketing machines. Do you have a fundamental problem with the sled tests not producing data that would be indicative of the HNR performance?

--Joe

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cooleyjb

Who are you and which of the HNR manufacturers do you work for? This topic seems to be the only one you post about and then only to support the sled tests that back up your product.

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Paul McLester

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quote:
Originally posted by cooleyjb:
Let me make sure I'm reading what both of you are saying correctly.

Kent- What it seems like to me is that you want a good statistical sample so you can minimize the outliers and get a good idea of the actual numbers we can find. However you are basically fine with the sled tests as an indicator of performance.

Keith- I'm not sure what you are saying. I think you are concerned with the way results are spun by the marketing machines. Do you have a fundamental problem with the sled tests not producing data that would be indicative of the HNR performance?

--Joe

Joe, what I'm saying is....

In the absence of single-lab, back to back, validated data with enough statistical power to detect differences between the devices (should they exist), the manufacturers and shills of these devices should not make comparative claims about their performance.

All three manufacturers I looked at are guilty of this stupidity: HANS, ISSAC and Hybrid Pro make claims they shouldn't on their websites.

One of the easiest marketing claims to make is 'lower numbers are better' and people will buy into it. They don't understand variability of data or how these companies present a single number as though it is a fact when the device may have performed much worse in other tests that day.

My guess is that all of the major devices are effective at preventing neck/spine injuries. Some have characteristics that could worsen injury in some cases or cause other injuries. Unfortunately, none of the makers have published a FMEA on any of these products, leaving the users to examine the designs and surmise the dangers.

For me, I note that one device seems to have far more real world experience than the others.

Who do you work for, Joe?

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Do I turn my 99 Hard S into a killerfast SM or seek a donor?

cooleyjb
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I work for myself. I don't work for any HNR company.

I have and use a HANS device, a DefNder and a Hybrid Pro.

Gator, go back and look at my earlier posts. I haven't just commented on the HNR threads. Only recently.

cooleyjb
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quote:
Originally posted by Gatoratty:
cooleyjb

Who are you and which of the HNR manufacturers do you work for? This topic seems to be the only one you post about and then only to support the sled tests that back up your product.

So which product do I support?

Gatoratty Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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I use a Hans extra because life experience has taught me never to be on the bleeding edge (cutting edge is okay) and because at some point I have to believe that the drivers who make a living driving would vote with their own safety and require something different. I am actually more interested in the reasoning for owning and using three different devices when any one of the above would seem to work. I leave the engineering questions to Kent and Keith who both seem to have a lot of experience in that area.

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Paul McLester

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Joe,
I don't have a problem with the SFI tests. They are scientific and honest but not very rigourous. They don't actually provide a whole lot of useful comparative data and they don't try to.

When people start using other isolated data points to make sweeping conclusions based on those points alone, it's not very scientific. When people promote product that way it either leads me to conclude that a) their science is bad or b) they're spinning the numbers to tell their story.

It would be really nice to have a very objective way to compare them but we just don't. When you read the reasearch in crash protection for auto, planes, hellicopters, it's the same story. Our best means of realy objective comparision is based on data from head on car crashes. You can't just go hire the guys waiting in front of Home Depot for $5/hr and crash them into walls faster and faster until their heads fly off. (At least not under the current administration.)
Keith

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Keith Novak
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cooleyjb
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quote:
Originally posted by Gatoratty:
I use a Hans extra because life experience has taught me never to be on the bleeding edge (cutting edge is okay) and because at some point I have to believe that the drivers who make a living driving would vote with their own safety and require something different. I am actually more interested in the reasoning for owning and using three different devices when any one of the above would seem to work. I leave the engineering questions to Kent and Keith who both seem to have a lot of experience in that area.

Three different devices exist in my household because first and foremost I'm a curious person.

Does each device protect equally in all situations. Lets take last week for me. I was in a formula car that I have a choice of two seating positions. One is a bit more upright and my head is above the bars that go along the side of the cockpit. For that I would use the DefNder. I feel it is the best in that situation for me. The lowest, fully laid back position with one of my helmets causes some contact with the DefNder so I go with the HANS in that case. My head is down low enough that the cockpit surround will keep my head from moving too far. While instructing in a car without a harness I don't think either the DefNder or the HANS would work very well. The Hybrid Pro seems to be the best in that situation. How good, who know as there isn't any official data showing what it can do without the driver being well anchored.

   

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