Spec Miata Community   
search | help | calendar | games | forum home

  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» Hello Spec Miata Community » Spec Miata Archives » Spec Miata 2001-2009 » 2010 Competition adjustments and Data Reports (Page 2)

 - Email this page to someone! | Subscribe To Topic
Page 2 of 4 1  2  3  4  next » 
 
Author Topic: 2010 Competition adjustments and Data Reports
B Wilson Verified Driver Series Champ
Gold Member

Region: Oregon
Car #: 68
Year : 91
Posts: 2359
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for B Wilson   Author's Homepage     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

Just checking my post count to see if it's time to jump in yet [Big Grin]

-b

New page [rolling on floor laughin]

--------------------
Bruce Wilson
2010 Oregon Region Champ
2010 Monte Shelton Driver of the Year
2010 25 Hours of Thunderhill E3 and Under 2 liter Overall Champion
Oregon Region SM Class Advisor

Johnny D Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
Hot Member

Region: SFR
Car #: 88 SM
Year : 99
Posts: 367
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for Johnny D     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

quote:
Originally posted by JIM DANIELS:
quote:
Originally posted by Kent Carter:
quote:
Originally posted by JIM DANIELS:
quote:
Originally posted by Willie the Tard:
quote:
Originally posted by Rob Burgoon:
We do? News to me. Can someone direct me to where it says I can put R package tie rod ends on my 95 M edition?

Like head work, it is tech shed legal [Smile] you know not really legal but allowed if you are somebody in the know
That could not be further from the truth. Rod ends have been legal and talked about here at this site for years, do some homework before you make comments like this.

(In the know means secret, search this site, it is no secret. OR, call Mazda and ask them what you need, they will tell you this part. If you don't replace your old ones, don't talk to Mazda or read this site, I guess it is a secret)

As for the 3k suspension, since when do you guys go by what is said here, surely you looked up prices before you wrote letters to the CRB?

[Smash]

1990 Tie Rod End: 8AN1-32-280 IN STOCK
1993 R-Package Tie Rod End: 8AN2-32-280 (superceded by N021-32-280A)

SCCA GCR 9.1.8.C: "No updating or backdating of cars, models, specifications, and/or components thereof shall be permitted except as specifically authorized in these specifications."

Unless I missed it, nowhere in the chassis modifications section does it allow changing Tie Rod Ends. Therefore, as long as Mazda continues to list and ship both part #'s 8AN1 and N021, it would seem illegal to update any non-R/LE package car to the N021 part.

.... correct me if I'm wrong.

Thanks for the quote.... [Big Grin] I missed that when I wrote it (the rules that is) [Wink]

I've spelled it out for 10 years, hit the search button, I don't have it in me anymore....

Someone please dig out the 100+ topics where we list the parts that can be run outside the intent but well within the tech ability....

Even when we "pro" guys try to help.........

Sorry for sounding like an ass, dead horse is an understatement.

Nothing like having a true spec class with a list of parts that can be run outside the intent and all you have to do is search for them in a chatroom.
[boggled]

B Wilson Verified Driver Series Champ
Gold Member

Region: Oregon
Car #: 68
Year : 91
Posts: 2359
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for B Wilson   Author's Homepage     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

Believe it or not Jonny, it used to be way worse than it is now thanks to members of SMAC and to some extent, the tech fund. I remember when I heard about shortened shocks some folks were running. Talk about pissed off!!!

-bw

--------------------
Bruce Wilson
2010 Oregon Region Champ
2010 Monte Shelton Driver of the Year
2010 25 Hours of Thunderhill E3 and Under 2 liter Overall Champion
Oregon Region SM Class Advisor

JIM DANIELS
Guest


Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted    Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

Vintage SM.com on a Thursday in 2009, I love it......

Anyone hear the Choir behind me?

Johnny, it is what it is, work hard to get rules passed then run what it allows or go insane (what it allows being tech legal of course).

We would be past "intent" and "tech legal" by this point, right? I'm game to hash it all out though [Razz]

http://forum.specmiata.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?/topic/44/377.html#000000

JIM DANIELS
Guest


Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted    Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

An oldie but goodie!!

http://forum.specmiata.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?/topic/23/209.html#000000

Johnny D Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
Hot Member

Region: SFR
Car #: 88 SM
Year : 99
Posts: 367
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for Johnny D     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

I know Jim. It's not just competitive on the track, it knowledge based as well which leads back onto the track. That's the sport. That's why I'm here. Trying to suck up overthing I can to get that edge.
J~

Rob Burgoon Verified Driver
Member

Posts: 443
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for Rob Burgoon     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

I don't think anyone wants to get into that philosophical discussion in this thread.

I just like seeing the fuzzy areas sharpened up when it's practical to do so.

--------------------
It really makes my week when nobody crashes into me.

Johnny D Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
Hot Member

Region: SFR
Car #: 88 SM
Year : 99
Posts: 367
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for Johnny D     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

Black and white would be good. Maybe in a book with NASA or SCCA printed on the front.
J~

JIM DANIELS
Guest


Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted    Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

Im with you guys, really am....

davew Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
Veteran Member

Region: chicago
Car #: 72 and ?
Year : 90 and 90
Posts: 1051
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for davew   Author's Homepage     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

Removal of cruise control was addressed earlier this year by the SMAC. It was added to the list of allowable items and will hopefully be in the 2010 GCR. It was in earlier rules, but got droped somewhere along the line.

Changing the bump steer is only part of what the suspension update would do. A 99+ at race height can get 7-9 degrees of caster. An early car gets 2-4 at the most. Correcting bump steer is only part of the equation. I guess the 16 experts who wrote letters to SCCA already know this.

Dave

--------------------
Advanced Autosports, The Midwests leader in Spec Miata Service, Parts and Rentals
608-313-1230
Authorised Spec Miata service center
www.advanced-autosports.com

ExRoadRacer
Member

Region: CSCC
Posts: 16
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for ExRoadRacer   Author's Homepage     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

quote:
Originally posted by Rob Burgoon:
I don't think anyone wants to get into that philosophical discussion in this thread.

I just like seeing the fuzzy areas sharpened up when it's practical to do so.

That's because you're an Engineer. & I can't say I don't agree with you.

But can you imagine how big the PDF will get? I want to race the lawyers not be instructed how to race by them.

my 2 cents worth, maybe

B Wilson Verified Driver Series Champ
Gold Member

Region: Oregon
Car #: 68
Year : 91
Posts: 2359
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for B Wilson   Author's Homepage     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

quote:
Originally posted by davew:
I guess the 16 experts who wrote letters to SCCA already know this.

Dave

Dave, my letter had abosolutely nothing to do with suspension geometry. Like many of the other letters I spoke about why I thought other things should be done first. Had I known what I know now, I wouldn't have written my letter. Context is a good thing to have when we are asked to give input...

-bw

--------------------
Bruce Wilson
2010 Oregon Region Champ
2010 Monte Shelton Driver of the Year
2010 25 Hours of Thunderhill E3 and Under 2 liter Overall Champion
Oregon Region SM Class Advisor

pat slattery Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
Veteran Member

Region: cincy
Car #: 79
Year : 92
Posts: 1495
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for pat slattery     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

I think lot of 1.6 owners thought something would be done, thats why I didn't push for the full blown change all the suspension parts over. I guess we all have second thoughts now.

Pat

--------------------
keeping the faith for the 1.6

Arrow Karts

Keith in WA Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
Pack Fodder

Region: NWR / Oregon
Car #: 88
Year : 95
Posts: 2000
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for Keith in WA     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

At least my cruise control input didn't fall on deaf ears. Never let it be said I haven't done anything to advance the class. [thumbsup]

(For lobbying services remember I do accept travelers checks, credit cards, and briefcases full of small unmarked non-sequential bills.)

--------------------
Keith Novak
(Will work for tires)

Kent Carter Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
Future Never Has Been

Region: Houston
Car #: 91
Year : 1991
Posts: 2171
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for Kent Carter   Author's Homepage     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

quote:
Originally posted by Keith in WA:
At least my cruise control input didn't fall on deaf ears. Never let it be said I haven't done anything to advance the class. [thumbsup]

(For lobbying services remember I do accept travelers checks, credit cards, and briefcases full of small unmarked non-sequential bills.)

.... sending Keith a briefcase chocked full of small unmarked non-consequential bills.

--------------------
Do I turn my 99 Hard S into a killerfast SM or seek a donor?

Mike C Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
MegaModerator

Region: WDCR - 042
Car #: 75
Year : 93 & 95 & 99
Posts: 3727
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for Mike C   Author's Homepage     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

WOW. Go get something eat and look what happens. Someone dug up that dead horse again. We need to find a better place to bury it.

--------------------
Mike Collins
MEATHEAD Racing
http://www.SHEETZ.com
The MEATHEAD Racing 2010 Calendar is up!!!!
www.MEATHEADRacing.com
SMAC Member
WDCR-SCCA SM Drivers Rep.
ALL OPINIONS ON RULES OR SPECIFICATIONS ARE JUST THAT, MY OPINIONS!

JimEli Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
Member

Region: NWR
Car #: 5
Year : 1991
Posts: 252
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for JimEli   Author's Homepage     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

quote:
Originally posted by davew:
I guess the 16 experts who wrote letters to SCCA already know this.

Dave

note to self: smac don't like opposing opinions.

--------------------
UPR.com
Team LemonLappers

JIM DANIELS
Guest


Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted    Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

quote:
Originally posted by JimEli:
quote:
Originally posted by davew:
I guess the 16 experts who wrote letters to SCCA already know this.

Dave

note to self: smac don't like opposing opinions.
When their balls are busted in one direction, matters not folks wish they had not bitched. SMAC wants your comments, not there fault you did no homework.

If you changed your mind, for the love of god, send in another letter, I need all the help I can get on the back side of this fiasco!!

Someone cooler than me please edit my language.....

B Wilson Verified Driver Series Champ
Gold Member

Region: Oregon
Car #: 68
Year : 91
Posts: 2359
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for B Wilson   Author's Homepage     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

My homework says it's too late. Maybe for mid-year adjustment in 2010, but an outside chance at this point.

-b

--------------------
Bruce Wilson
2010 Oregon Region Champ
2010 Monte Shelton Driver of the Year
2010 25 Hours of Thunderhill E3 and Under 2 liter Overall Champion
Oregon Region SM Class Advisor

B Wilson Verified Driver Series Champ
Gold Member

Region: Oregon
Car #: 68
Year : 91
Posts: 2359
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for B Wilson   Author's Homepage     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

BTW, when I say "Had I known then what I know now" has nothing to do with suspension geometry, but how that change might fit into the long term plans of the class.

-b

--------------------
Bruce Wilson
2010 Oregon Region Champ
2010 Monte Shelton Driver of the Year
2010 25 Hours of Thunderhill E3 and Under 2 liter Overall Champion
Oregon Region SM Class Advisor

Casey Z Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
MegaModerator

Region: MidDiv
Car #: 13
Year : 92
Posts: 2873
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for Casey Z     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

Having spent a huge amount of time going over the data I have the following thoughts.

- If you believe the data the 1.6 should get a bunch of weight to try to equalize the projected lap times.

- The 1.6 got zero adjustment against the 99

- The 1.8 got the 4.3 just because the final drive ratio was different.

- The fact that the 1.6 didn't get a huge adjustment indicates that the data is suspect and everyone knows that.

- Therefore, the 4.3 was added to the 1.8 because it makes sense as far as making the cars more spec.

- There are those that assume that a top 1.6 at the runoffs (with a good driver) at only 119 was a theoretical over dog when there is the mythical 123 1.6 out there that no one has every torn down still chose to not add weight to the 1.6. Why would they do that? If the car is that good it needs to be slowed down.

- The 1.6 was not slowed at all. The reason for this is that it doesn't need to be slowed down even though the data says it needs to be.

- Therefore the data is suspect and it was essentially ignored because it is meaningless.

- If you were really adjusting the class based on the data, the 1.6 needs weight or something. That didn't happen.

So ask what is the data worth and what weight it should be given? What weight was it given? Zero really.

This isn't an easy job to do. I don't think the SMAC and or CRB has an agenda. I do think that the data is crap and I think that the results show that as well.

According to the data the 1.6 is a huge over dog. The results do not reflect that. I will wait till next year and revisit this. The results won't change a bit. Next year will bear this out. Till then...

--------------------
----------------
Z Brothers Racing / East Street Auto

Casey Z - 1.6 Kettle
MidDiv National #13

B Wilson Verified Driver Series Champ
Gold Member

Region: Oregon
Car #: 68
Year : 91
Posts: 2359
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for B Wilson   Author's Homepage     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

Interesting conclusion Casey. I think the data analysis was useful, but as with any data analysis, the "other" factors need to be considered. So the data does show that the 1.6 can run fast laps and can pull out of a corner just as fast as a 99. but the "other" factors are consistency and drivability (what the whole suspension thing was about).

The problem with suspension geometry change is the SMAC was two steps ahead of everyone else in their trying to do something for the 1.6. While we were all still discussing cams and flywheels, the SMAC had already decided that wouldn't fly so they moved on to the next best thing -- planning for the future.

At this point, the cars are so close that's it's become a no win situation (no pun intended). 1.8s for all in 5 years. Let's start planning now.

-bw

--------------------
Bruce Wilson
2010 Oregon Region Champ
2010 Monte Shelton Driver of the Year
2010 25 Hours of Thunderhill E3 and Under 2 liter Overall Champion
Oregon Region SM Class Advisor

D.B. Cutler Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
Huge Member

Region: Detroit
Car #: 5
Year : 1991
Posts: 1029
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for D.B. Cutler     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

If we all get 1.8L engines in five years, what happens with the Mazdaspeed LSD ? Would the converted 1.6L cars need to get rid of the LSD and go the Torsen convert route ?

d mathias Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
Member

Region: OVR
Car #: 88
Year : 1991
Posts: 2401
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for d mathias     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

Everyone should sell there current car as an improved touring racer and start fresh with a 2006+ MX-5, using the Playboy series rulebook (maybe adding a hardtop). That is the logical progression of this class.

This is my 'I told you so' in advance.

-Denny

Gatoratty Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
Member

Region: Central Florida
Car #: 3
Year : 1992
Posts: 1304
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for Gatoratty     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

If the idea is to "push" all of the 1.6 owners toward the 1.8....why not just save us all a lot of fighting and money and just create a 1.6 only class now?

--------------------
Paul McLester

Jason Holland Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
Mediocrity rules!

Region: SouthEast
Car #: 28
Year : 95
Posts: 3756
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for Jason Holland   Author's Homepage     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

That is the best argument for SSM i've heard yet.

--------------------
Jason Holland
Semi-interested civilian

Jamie Tucker Series Champ

ARRC 2010 Champ

Region: CFR
Car #: 97
Year : 1990/99
Posts: 788
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for Jamie Tucker     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

I would not call a 123HP 1.6 mythical! If that was the case I would change my name to Merlin since I have 3 engines that make those numbers and yes they are legal (for now). Actually 122.7 105.5 but who is counting.

--------------------
2010 ARRC Champion
2010 CFR Champion
2010 instigator of the year
2010/2011 Andrew Von C Wingman

Chris Windsor Verified Driver Made Donation to Website Series Champ
windsorcustoms.com

Region: WDCR,
Car #: 38
Year : 1991
Posts: 841
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for Chris Windsor   Author's Homepage     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

quote:
Originally posted by Gatoratty:
If the idea is to "push" all of the 1.6 owners toward the 1.8....why not just save us all a lot of fighting and money and just create a 1.6 only class now?

You have that it is SM 'cause when SMX hit's the track that's where the rest are gonna go. [Big Grin] [Eek!]
Sounds like it's time for SM evolution with newer faster unrestricted cars to build and the 1.6 becoming old enough to buy the beer [boggled]

...what will it take $ to keep the NA competitive with NB are you willing to spend it?

...and what is healthy for the class?

--------------------
2011 Season schedule coming soon
Support, sales, repair or rental
windsorcustoms.com

Gatoratty Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
Member

Region: Central Florida
Car #: 3
Year : 1992
Posts: 1304
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for Gatoratty     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

Looking at the entry data from SCCA...SSM is the fastest growing class in SCCA last year. There is a reason for that....low cost strictly controlled racing!

SSM is not available across the country and yet it still is growing faster than the SM class.

I keep getting told that if the class is split it will ruin SM racing. The fact that this class has been moving away from an entry level budget class for several years seems to be ignored.

For those of you that want to run MX-5 cup cars and the latest fastest Miata's.....go race ITS, ITR, EP, or FP. SMX...Good luck getting the CRB and the BOD to create a new class in this economy!

This class was built on the 1.6...quit trying to get rid of the 1.6.

--------------------
Paul McLester

pat slattery Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
Veteran Member

Region: cincy
Car #: 79
Year : 92
Posts: 1495
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for pat slattery     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

quote:
Originally posted by Jamie Tucker:
I would not call a 123HP 1.6 mythical! If that was the case I would change my name to Merlin since I have 3 engines that make those numbers and yes they are legal (for now). Actually 122.7 105.5 but who is counting.

Jamie what correction factor are you using on your dyno runs?


Pat Slattery

--------------------
keeping the faith for the 1.6

Arrow Karts

Jason Holland Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
Mediocrity rules!

Region: SouthEast
Car #: 28
Year : 95
Posts: 3756
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for Jason Holland   Author's Homepage     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

I agree. I 100% believe that SSM is where the 1.6's should go. Cost controlled, more even playing field and it has the benefit of hindsight so maybe we won't make the same mistakes.

I'm about to start ramping up the SSM pr machine again. If you want to help, please contact me.

Jason

P.S. Splitting the class does not mean sudden implosion

--------------------
Jason Holland
Semi-interested civilian

Teamfour Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
Member

Region: WDCR
Car #: 04
Year : 1993
Posts: 519
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for Teamfour   Author's Homepage     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

I wish we had SSM in the deep south!!

--------------------
Lee Tilton
1993 Meowta #04
Brimtek Motorsports/ Team Four Racing
Team Four Racing

Jason Holland Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
Mediocrity rules!

Region: SouthEast
Car #: 28
Year : 95
Posts: 3756
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for Jason Holland   Author's Homepage     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

TeamFour?

How deep can you be? We have it in Atlanta (pretty soon SEDIV wide) and in Florida with NASA...

Let me know if you want more info via pm.

Jason

--------------------
Jason Holland
Semi-interested civilian

B Wilson Verified Driver Series Champ
Gold Member

Region: Oregon
Car #: 68
Year : 91
Posts: 2359
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for B Wilson   Author's Homepage     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

Jason, I'm not following you on the SSM thing. the 1.6 started SM and that's where they belong! Let the 99s go to SMX.

The 1.6 still dominate the West Coast. We can't ignore that many member of the group!

-bw

--------------------
Bruce Wilson
2010 Oregon Region Champ
2010 Monte Shelton Driver of the Year
2010 25 Hours of Thunderhill E3 and Under 2 liter Overall Champion
Oregon Region SM Class Advisor

Jamie Tucker Series Champ

ARRC 2010 Champ

Region: CFR
Car #: 97
Year : 1990/99
Posts: 788
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for Jamie Tucker     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

quote:
Originally posted by pat slattery:
quote:
Originally posted by Jamie Tucker:
I would not call a 123HP 1.6 mythical! If that was the case I would change my name to Merlin since I have 3 engines that make those numbers and yes they are legal (for now). Actually 122.7 105.5 but who is counting.

Jamie what correction factor are you using on your dyno runs?


Pat Slattery

Pat I have a Dynojet 224 and use the SAE correction factor. My dyno also has its own sensors for temp, pressure, and humidity so those settings are out of my control. I dyno a lot of 1.6s and have seen numbers from 105 to 125. That does not mean that they are all legal but there are ways to get a legal 119 horsepower engine to 122 with the correct combination of bolt ons and many hours of playing with them.

--------------------
2010 ARRC Champion
2010 CFR Champion
2010 instigator of the year
2010/2011 Andrew Von C Wingman

pat slattery Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
Veteran Member

Region: cincy
Car #: 79
Year : 92
Posts: 1495
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for pat slattery     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

I was getting 121 but then found out the correction factor was the Standard. When we switched over to SAE it was 2-3 less. I guess the SAE is what most use. I guess I have a little more work to do.

thanks

pat

--------------------
keeping the faith for the 1.6

Arrow Karts

Casey Z Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
MegaModerator

Region: MidDiv
Car #: 13
Year : 92
Posts: 2873
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for Casey Z     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

quote:
Originally posted by Jamie Tucker:
I would not call a 123HP 1.6 mythical! If that was the case I would change my name to Merlin since I have 3 engines that make those numbers and yes they are legal (for now). Actually 122.7 105.5 but who is counting.

Can you elaborate on the "for now" part? Not casting any accusations here, just wondering what you think is changing that may make them non compliant? I know of several ways to get a 1.6 the last 2-3 hp, but I also know I would never take that motor to the runoffs even though I would be comfortable taking it to pretty much any national race.

I think this is a question anyone with a motor they didn't build themselves should be ready to ask their builder as soon as the rebuild specs are released...

--------------------
----------------
Z Brothers Racing / East Street Auto

Casey Z - 1.6 Kettle
MidDiv National #13

Rob Burgoon Verified Driver
Member

Posts: 443
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for Rob Burgoon     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

quote:
Originally posted by B Wilson:
Jason, I'm not following you on the SSM thing. the 1.6 started SM and that's where they belong! Let the 99s go to SMX.

The 1.6 still dominate the West Coast. We can't ignore that many member of the group!

-bw

Bruce, I think you're mostly arguing over who gets to keep the "SM" name. Does it make much of a difference if 1.6s exclusively get called "SM" or "SSM"? Calling the 99s SMX doesn't really change much, it's still a split (not a bad thing).

--------------------
It really makes my week when nobody crashes into me.

B Wilson Verified Driver Series Champ
Gold Member

Region: Oregon
Car #: 68
Year : 91
Posts: 2359
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for B Wilson   Author's Homepage     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

Am I am pissing in the wind (PM about giving up on making 1.6 and 1.8 competitive)?

1) SM is not 99SM, nor should it ever by just one year.

2) Throw away 1.6 and 1.8 and you'll have way worse of a problem with the 99 + MX5. They are completely different cars.

3) I don't give up and neither should any of us. Why would we give up when we are closer than ever. That's like giving up because you need an extra ten thousanths of a second to win.

-b

--------------------
Bruce Wilson
2010 Oregon Region Champ
2010 Monte Shelton Driver of the Year
2010 25 Hours of Thunderhill E3 and Under 2 liter Overall Champion
Oregon Region SM Class Advisor

B Wilson Verified Driver Series Champ
Gold Member

Region: Oregon
Car #: 68
Year : 91
Posts: 2359
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for B Wilson   Author's Homepage     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

quote:
Originally posted by Rob Burgoon:
quote:
Originally posted by B Wilson:
Jason, I'm not following you on the SSM thing. the 1.6 started SM and that's where they belong! Let the 99s go to SMX.

The 1.6 still dominate the West Coast. We can't ignore that many member of the group!

-bw

Bruce, I think you're mostly arguing over who gets to keep the "SM" name. Does it make much of a difference if 1.6s exclusively get called "SM" or "SSM"? Calling the 99s SMX doesn't really change much, it's still a split (not a bad thing).
Read into it a little further Rob. It's about who keeps the class. Make the 1.6 and 1.8 a regional class for the slow folks who just want to dabble. Make the 99 a national class for the serious folks. No! I don't think giving up is an answer to fine tuning. [nope] There is very little difference when it comes down to it.

-b

--------------------
Bruce Wilson
2010 Oregon Region Champ
2010 Monte Shelton Driver of the Year
2010 25 Hours of Thunderhill E3 and Under 2 liter Overall Champion
Oregon Region SM Class Advisor

DerekFSU Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
Member

Posts: 214
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for DerekFSU     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

quote:
Originally posted by JIM DANIELS:
Someone cooler than me please edit my language..... [/QB]

Well that's impossible!

pat slattery Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
Veteran Member

Region: cincy
Car #: 79
Year : 92
Posts: 1495
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for pat slattery     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

I see several prominent 99 cars being sold for high 20's to low 30K sale prices. Do you think we could fetch anywhere within 10000.00 less for a 1.6

Heck, we have the fastest theoretical lap car at the runoffs for way less than that. All it needs is a "good" 99 car driver to win. [Wink]

Pat

--------------------
keeping the faith for the 1.6

Arrow Karts

Jason Holland Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
Mediocrity rules!

Region: SouthEast
Car #: 28
Year : 95
Posts: 3756
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for Jason Holland   Author's Homepage     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

quote:
Originally posted by DerekFSU:
quote:
Originally posted by JIM DANIELS:
Someone cooler than me please edit my language.....

Well that's UNpossible! [/QB]
I fixed that for you Derek.

--------------------
Jason Holland
Semi-interested civilian

DerekFSU Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
Member

Posts: 214
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for DerekFSU     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

quote:
Originally posted by pat slattery:
I see several prominent 99 cars being sold for high 20's to low 30K sale prices. Do you think we could fetch anywhere within 10000.00 less for a 1.6

I paid $26k for a 1.6 but it came with the ACTUAL seat that Blake Clements sat in so it's not exactly apples to apples.

springfielddyno Verified Driver
Runoffs "MOVE OF THE RACE" (headlights)

Region: Ozark Mountain Region
Car #: 37, 31
Year : 96, 93
Posts: 775
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for springfielddyno   Author's Homepage     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

quote:
Originally posted by Casey Z:
Having spent a huge amount of time going over the data I have the following thoughts.

- If you believe the data the 1.6 should get a bunch of weight to try to equalize the projected lap times.

- The 1.6 got zero adjustment against the 99

- The 1.8 got the 4.3 just because the final drive ratio was different.

- The fact that the 1.6 didn't get a huge adjustment indicates that the data is suspect and everyone knows that.

- Therefore, the 4.3 was added to the 1.8 because it makes sense as far as making the cars more spec.

- There are those that assume that a top 1.6 at the runoffs (with a good driver) at only 119 was a theoretical over dog when there is the mythical 123 1.6 out there that no one has every torn down still chose to not add weight to the 1.6. Why would they do that? If the car is that good it needs to be slowed down.

- The 1.6 was not slowed at all. The reason for this is that it doesn't need to be slowed down even though the data says it needs to be.

- Therefore the data is suspect and it was essentially ignored because it is meaningless.

- If you were really adjusting the class based on the data, the 1.6 needs weight or something. That didn't happen.

So ask what is the data worth and what weight it should be given? What weight was it given? Zero really.

This isn't an easy job to do. I don't think the SMAC and or CRB has an agenda. I do think that the data is crap and I think that the results show that as well.

According to the data the 1.6 is a huge over dog. The results do not reflect that. I will wait till next year and revisit this. The results won't change a bit. Next year will bear this out. Till then...

I gave the data and the data reports consideration. I also considered race results and what i see week in and week out at the track and on the dyno... I'd be happy to race any of the three models if they were truly 10/10ths car prep efforts.

--------------------
Regards,
Sam H.
www.springfielddyno.com

Brian Cates
Member

Region: Washington, DC
Posts: 231
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for Brian Cates   Author's Homepage     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

SSM will be the down fall of the class! Ok, well maybe not in the DC region where we have 90 Miatas show up on most weekends and we have 2 race groups anyway.

I have never seen so much dipsarity between SSM cars as I saw at the ARRC. SSM right now means pro motors with a stock airbox and Mazdaspeed muffler and a sealed engine with whatever power seems good for that week or race. What a joke!

Sorry Thill and Holland, I love what you guys are trying to do, make SSM a less expensive and more equall class, but until you guys can agree on one set of rules for SCCA and NASA, and actually establish and enforce the power limits, SSM is just another splinter class of SM. Sure there are a lot of people signing up for SSM as it supposedly gets back to the original theory of SM, but the grass ain't no greener! A few years ago you could take a stock Mazda Crate engine and be competitive in SSM, but those days are long gone. I truely hope you guys find the promised land, I really do.

In the meantime, loosing all the 1.6 cars to SSM and adding MX-5 cup cars to SM does not seem to be in the best interest of the class.

Trying to eventually have all the current SM cars run 1.8 engines and share common suspension and brake hardware does seem to be a good long term objective. Figure 5 years to phase out the 1.6 engines.

Mixing in the MX-5 cars however is a very bad idea. (How many beers were downed when that idea came up. Can I run my 2005 Mazdaspeed too? I promise not to use the turbo!) The weights and power levels are just too different. If you think the current cars are track dependent, wait until the MX-5 cars are added to the mix. Sure it might be fun for one race at one track, like next years ARRC, but I truely hope that is not where the class is headed.

The cars are pretty darn close right now and the new rule package seems fair. However it seems in the effort to reign in the grey area with heads, we may have just created more costs for everyone running what were belived to be legal Pro engines. I hope I am wrong on this one. It seems at the least I will need to send all my heads back to the Pro Shops and see if they meet the new rules.

OK, did I miss anybody to piss off [Big Grin] [Wink]

I love you guys, now can we quit trying to add more classes. It's good already!!!

Jason Holland Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
Mediocrity rules!

Region: SouthEast
Car #: 28
Year : 95
Posts: 3756
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for Jason Holland   Author's Homepage     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

Brian,

I understand your concerns but using the arrc as a data poin for SSM is not reasonable. Big problems there in having one ruleset (NASA/Atlanta region) being sealed at a crate motor attainable hp and the dc guys running unsealed tuned up pro motors ( at least the front of the grid not sure about the rest). Nothing against those guys, nothing illegal about it but it's not what I envision for SSM and something we'll need to work on particularly for the arrc.
I suspect SSM is going to take off next year in alot of places. We'll see if the concept works nationally. I'd love to see a common ruleset between the SCCA regions and NASA but right now I doesn't look like we can get consensus on a common ruleset. But we'll keep trying!

Thx for the input...
Jason

--------------------
Jason Holland
Semi-interested civilian

Drago Verified Driver Made Donation to Website Series Champ
MegaModerator

Region: mid south
Car #: 2
Year : 1999
Posts: 4275
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for Drago   Author's Homepage     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

quote:
Originally posted by Brian Cates:
SSM will be the down fall of the class! Ok, well maybe not in the DC region where we have 90 Miatas show up on most weekends and we have 2 race groups anyway.

I have never seen so much dipsarity between SSM cars as I saw at the ARRC. SSM right now means pro motors with a stock airbox and Mazdaspeed muffler and a sealed engine with whatever power seems good for that week or race. What a joke!


Brian
As respectful as I can be to the DC guys and it is probably not fair to comment as I have never seen what goes on there. But I couldn't agree more. IMO ( somewhat educated I would hope)the speeds obtained by the cars at the ARRC in SSM, sealed or unsealed, tuned up or not... Well, they don't seem very likely with the rules I have read?
I agree with what Brian posted, the cars appear to be pro motors, maybe home built pro motors etc, but certainly not what the "intent"(SSM guys like that one) [Big Grin] I expected to see. i think SSM gives the illusion of cheap racing etc and equal cars.. It is not without its flaws either.

The SSM idea is great one, so is SM! I feel that with the new engine specs coming out, SM will be just as easy and perhaps just as cost effective to run well in SM as SSM. Perhaps easier? The only difference is the additional cars. While it won't be a popular opinion. Many guys complaining about 99's will have the same issues with better prepped and driven cars in SSM . There is no reason a good driver in a home built car and NAPA built engine can not win the Runoffs next year in SM. ANY version IMO, If you think one is better build that one.It is my opinion the version car you drive will not win or lose you the Runoffs.
I will never be an advocate for splitting up the class.

Jim

--------------------
Jim Drago
East Street Auto Salvage
jdrago1@aol.com
2006-2007 Mid-West Division
07,09 June Sprints Champion

EAST STREET RACING

David Dewhurst
Veteran Member

Posts: 574
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for David Dewhurst     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

***There is no reason a good driver in a home built car and NAPA built engine can not win the Runoffs next year in SM.***

Dude, are you looking for reaction. [Roll Eyes]

Very subjective words:

"good driver"

"home built car"

"NAPA built engine"

These ^ sound like the EXACT same words bantered about in 1996 when the LP production cars came about. Are you drinking the CRB Kool-Aid?

--------------------
Have Fun [Wink]

David Dewhurst
CenDiv
Milwaukee Region
Spec Miata #14

Rob Burgoon Verified Driver
Member

Posts: 443
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for Rob Burgoon     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

quote:
Originally posted by Drago:
[QUOTE]Many guys complaining about 99's will have the same issues with better prepped and driven cars in SSM .
Jim

The goal is more similar cars, not less whining. Whining is one of the pillars that motorsport is built upon! [Big Grin]

Even if there are overdog SSMs, it won't be horsepower vs. momentum like 1.6 v 99.

That said, as much as I want to do SSM, I am not going to sell my 1.8 to do it. What is it, a week until the head spec comes out? I can't wait!

--------------------
It really makes my week when nobody crashes into me.

 
Page 2 of 4 1  2  3  4  next » 
 

   Close Topic   Feature Topic   Move Topic   Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic | Subscribe To Topic
Hop To: