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Author Topic: It's not the Pro Motors, or the parity between years....
Gatoratty Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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It's not the Pro Motors, or the parity between years...that are going to cause people to leave the class. [nope]

It is the amount of wrecks and damage to the cars that will make people finally get tired of the time, money, and effort it takes to keep rebuilding your car due to aggressive driving and bonehead moves. [Mad]

I just finished watching the latest wreckfest video from Sebring combined with spending the last month having my car straightened on the frame machine, replacing both front fenders, front suspension, and painting the front of the car. It made me think back over the year regarding the number of wreck videos and stories I have read on this site. Summit Point, Sebring, Daytona, Roebling, SIC, ARRC, June Sprints it doesn't matter ....seems like there were major wrecks every race. We are Spec Pinata or "those crazy bastards" to the other drivers.

The CRB and SMAC have spent a lot of time looking at parity and cheater motors, but the real problem is going to be when people get tired of putting their money and sweat into their car only to be wrecked. [shame]

We as a class and the SCCA as an organization have to recognize that the metal to metal contact has to stop! Drivers need to give racing room and remember that this is a hobby.... [soapbox] [twocents]

[ 12-04-2009, 07:15 AM: Message edited by: Gatoratty ]

--------------------
Paul McLester

Jay Stroud
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Paul brings up a good point. I came over to SM from open wheel for cost containment and the size of the fields. Although I miss driving open wheel, after 3 years I still feel I made the right decision. I've learned a lot and met a lot of extremely helpful people and talented drivers along the way. I love the car and the class and will continue to stay in it for many years to come.

I have also seen and followed some very exceptional drivers in the class, however, I have seen even more boneheaded moves over bragging rights or for a plastic trophy. One thing open wheel racing breeds is pride in the ability to overtake CLEANLY. This requires exceptional skill, patience, and boldness. When you pass someone this way, you're pumped because you out drove the other guy...you earned it. Nothing is wrong with aggressiveness, but leaning hard on someone to make a move doesn't make you a better driver. Actually to the skilled, it makes you a lesser one. I'm mean...isn't that one of the primary reasons we all have to carry onboard video! ;-)

However, I don't want to put all the blame on the driver b/c whatever the sanctioning body tolerates will exist. One thing I have noticed is the stark difference between NASA and SCCA. From my experience, NASA takes contact seriously and enforces it fairly strictly. SCCA talks a big game but does very little to back it up. I'm not bashing anyone, just stating the truth...at least from my experience in the SE region (which is all I can speak for). I'm a member of both, support them both (their similarities and differences) and consistently volunteer as a PDX instructor for SCCA and am hoping to do some HPDE instruction with NASA next season. However, with my experience in NASA (which is far less than in SCCA), I can say that I appreciate the respect the SM drivers give to one another. In SCCA, there is a sigh of relief if you make it to the checker with no damage (major or minor).

I remember an SCCA race at Road Atlanta last year. At the driver's meeting it was stressed "there will be no bump drafting". Green flag flies, first lap, they're bump drafting on the front stretch in front of everyone. What a joke. If it's tolerated, we're going to do it. But it'd be nice to see a little enforcement on the blatant stuff as I know there are sometimes when contact can't be avoided.

I personally do know others who will not move to SM for this reason or that will co-drive/rent with me in NASA but not in SCCA. But then again, if we weren't called "Wreck Miata", then the "Spec Wrecker Fords" would be the only class being made fun of for this!

d mathias Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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I could not have said it better Paul. This has been on my mind lately (probably because I've been straightening my car the last few weekends to get ready for 2010). If I have another year like '09, when I was run into in 3 of the 6 events I attended... well, I don't know how much more 'fun' I can stand.

The SCCA in particular does not seem to be in the enforcement business anymore.

-Denny

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Paul, Spot on!
We have worked very hard at our local track to clean things up. From 2008 to 2009 we have see great improvment. It did take RFAs to clean things up.

Key is to get the Chief Stewart on board with the objective to clean things up.

I know MTM is going to happen. My issue is the guy that has it every race and it's never his fault.

--------------------
Ralph Provitz
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FWIW: Uncontrolled contact from a limited number of bonehead drivers is 100% of the reason I quit SM.

Moving to a class (GTL) and a series (only nationals) that compels you and you colleagues to behave themselves on track has been wonderful.

Sure, the car requires more maintenance and engineering, but I'd rather build a better exhaust than replace a quarter panel any day.

For a long time I bought the argument that the onus was on the drivers to throw paper and police ourselves (drivers = police, stewards = judges). But after doing it and seeing it done and NEVER seeing justice served even once, I discovered that we're all on our own. The stewards aren't going to help.

The solution (for me) was to find a run group where the people cared about their cars and their behavior.

In WDCR Jim did a good job of making it personal when someone misbehaved. This was/is effective. If push came to shove, and someone challenged him, I'm not sure what would have happened (inside the track anyway). But it worked (much) better than nothing.

My suggestion to the SM community is make it personal. It will be a VERY tough uphill road. It will REQUIRE you to endure the unpleasantness of direct face-to-face conflict every weekend.

You will need to organize as a group of concerned drivers and that group will need to confront the offending driver directly. It will not be fun and it will not always end well. But it's the only system I've ever seen work.

I race for fun. That kind of stress is not a part of why I come to the track. So it's why I left SM. HUGE props to Jim for what he went through to make SSM better. He's a better man than me.

-Kyle

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Good posts by all. This seems to be an issue in many regions.

As Kyle we need to "organize as a group"...

In car video can provide a compelling argument if needed for the stewards to review.

Let's see how/if it works in 2010.

--------------------
LTD Racing
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Eric Barbaric Verified Driver
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Yeah Paul, just drive faster.

And if you have to bend a fender (yours, someone elses, or both) on your way to the upper front third of the grid, so be it.

Seriously, though... Jim is right about nothing gonna happen til paper flies.

In COMMA, track officials will call a drivers meeting and scold us if things get rough.

Gatoratty Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Jim

I have been around long enough to remember working the 76 ball at Talledega with a head set on calling metal to metal. The drivers were called to the stewards office and dealt with. Same when I worked the runoffs at Road Atlanta. The SCCA can and should do something to police the drivers. They have no problem doing it in the SCCA Pro series and it seems like NASA and conference series have no problem doing it. Interesting that one of my friends who was at the Sebring race complained of being bumped and pushed by "front 1/3" drivers" who were starting from the back.

By the way.....how many cars do I have to go thru while I work my way to the front 1/3? I guess Steyn (SIC), Munson (SIC), Tucker (Sebring), and the guys at the front at Summit who all have been wrecked this season are exceptions to your statement?

--------------------
Paul McLester

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quote:
You want the best answer for avoiding contact? It is a simple one, elevate yourself to upper third of the grid, probably upper 1/4.It can and usually is very rough in mid pack area. I went the entire year with zero damage by any SM, not a scratch.
Seriously?!? This is your solution? Even if everyone gets faster and is within a couple 1/100s of each other's times there will still be a mid-pack.

I've filed protests only to be told "It was a racing incident". Besides, I've been told protesting is for whiners.

Jim Creighton
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Paul, excellent point. The first year of SM as a National class, the SEDiv appointed Toni to be the SM operating Steward. At the first National at Sebring, she kept the entire field in impound until after 9 PM while she handed out all the penalties for bump drafting and contact. She had warned everyone prior to the race that if there was contact ( bump drafting is contact), this is the way it would be handled. There were a lot of unhappy drivers who had to stay while everything was handled.

However, the very next weekend at the Morosso National, not one single penalty was handed out because no one touched. The word spread quickly that it would not be tolerated.

I would suggest that those of you who are tired of this constant disregard for your property contact the new SEDiv Executive Steward, Bob Horansky, and tell him you are fed up with the operating Stewards disregarding the GCR.

6.8. RULES OF THE ROAD
6.8.1. On Course Driver Conduct
A. It is the responsibility of all drivers to avoid physical contact
between cars on the race track.
B. All competitors have a right to “racing room” on the marked racing
surface. “Racing room” shall be generally defined as sufficient
space on the marked racing surface so as to allow a competitor
to maintain control of his car in close quarters, under racing conditions.
C. It shall be incumbent on all drivers to preserve the right of his fellow
competitors to racing room on the race track.
6. Racing Rules and Procedures
Abrupt changes in General direction so as to impede or affect the path of a car attempting to
overtake or pass may be interpreted by Officials as an attempt to deprive a fellow competitor of his right to racing room.
D. The responsibility for the decision to pass another car and to accomplish it safely rests with the overtaking driver. The overtaken driver
has the responsibility to be aware that he or she is being overtaken and not to impede the overtaking car. The overtaken driver shall
not block. Any driver who fails to make use of the rear view mirror,
or who appears to be blocking another car seeking a pass, may be
black flagged and/or penalized. (See 7, Penalties)

There is a Stewards meeting at the Jekyll Island meeting in Feb and it would be a good subject for Bob to discuss. In addition, perhaps he might take a few minutes to come into the SM meeting and listen to your concerns.

--------------------
Jim Creighton
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quote:
Originally posted by Drago:
It is a simple one, elevate yourself to upper third of the grid, probably upper 1/4.It can and usually is very rough in mid pack area. I went the entire year with zero damage by any SM, not a scratch. The only damage I got was from an ITA driver in a pro IT and it wasn't terrible.Jim
Jim [/QB]

Jim:
I wholeheartedly agree that the closer to the pointy end, the fewer bone head moves one has to endure. My one serious contact this year came while running first in a 26 car field. The guy who punted me in lap six (unsuccessfully), took me (and P2)out in the white flag lap. I protested and it was ruled a racing incident. We've had this thread before. Hereabouts SCCA stewards are becoming notorious about not enforcing this issue. Just my HO.
Rick

--------------------
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Cajun Miata Man Verified Driver
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quote:
Originally posted by Qik Nip:
quote:
Originally posted by Drago:
It is a simple one, elevate yourself to upper third of the grid, probably upper 1/4.It can and usually is very rough in mid pack area. I went the entire year with zero damage by any SM, not a scratch. The only damage I got was from an ITA driver in a pro IT and it wasn't terrible.Jim
Jim

Jim:
I wholeheartedly agree that the closer to the pointy end, the fewer bone head moves one has to endure. My one serious contact this year came while running first in a 26 car field. The guy who punted me in lap six (unsuccessfully), took me (and P2)out in the white flag lap. I protested and it was ruled a racing incident. We've had this thread before. Hereabouts SCCA stewards are becoming notorious about not enforcing this issue. Just my HO.
Rick[/QB]

This would be a case that if you really felt it was not a racing incident as the stewards ruled, you could have appealed to Topeka.

--------------------
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Dennis Brown Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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I agree with Jim. It was the same when I raced motorcycles. The guys upfront are predictable and are very seldom driving over their head. If they do loose it they exit the track so fast that you are clear.

I am tired of racing with other classes, that is where I had all my issues. I am also tired of fixing my car and will not race in races that have different types of cars anymore unless I get something with a bigger bumper like a Mazda 3.

Dennis

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Jim D., returning to Paul initial assertion, the health of this class depends on cleaning up the on-track conduct. There will always be a mid-pack. Are we only concerned with the top 25%? If everyone else gives up and leaves the class then you can average 6-8 starters per race and position 3 through 7 will be mid-pack. Perhaps if the SCCA sees this as a problem that limits participation they may then act.

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Drivers talking(not shouting, insulting, cursing, etc) with drivers (without wrasslin) more often would be a good place to start.

--------------------
All this has happened before, and will happen again

Jim Blaisdell
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If you can't handle the heat...perhaps become a waiter.

This discussion happens in every sport I've participated in.

It is the same in cycling, Lance Armstrong never broke his collar bone in 7 years of Tour de France's. This last year, he breaks his collar bone at the Giro Italia...where was he?...mid-to-back of the pack!!!

--------------------
Jim Blaisdell
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cpdenis
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Well said Denny.
Jim B. Lance Armsrong is not trying to make a position through the grass, or using the car ahead as a brake marker or trying to come back on track in the same position before he spun off, or trying to make an overzealous pass.
Many of the incidents I see are from cars coming back across the racing line, or continuing to role after hard contact.
This having to protest everything is ridiculous. I attended the driver school in Homestead last summer and several drivers passed under double yellows between Turns 6 and 8. Subsequently I overheard a student complain verbally to the head instructor at which point he was told to file a protest. Are you kidding, during a school, with instructors stationed at the corners. Everyone received their novice license that day.

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Jim,

With all due respect. The "protest or quit bitching" approach is how we got here. It's not the solution.

-Kyle

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After reading this topic with much interest, I would like to offer an alternative that might work for a few of you. Whenever you have 50 or 60 cars on track at the same time, and 2 or 3 side by side through many corners, you are going to have metal to metal car contact no matter how strongly the event is policed.

At NASA Florida (NASA SE Section) we have a much smaller race group of Spec Miata race drivers, and it is easy for them to be considerate of each other on the track. Yes, we do emphasize safety and no metal to metal contact, but right now, with our class sizes, it is not a problem.

Maybe try running with a smaller group. We are trying very hard to accommodate the Spec Miata group of racers and are offering special rates, trophy presentations on Sat., Happy Social Hour with FREE COLD BEER and Free Pizza at the Social. We offer over 3 hours of track time over the 3-day weekend coming up on Dec 12 & 13 for $300. The Spec Miata Group will have their own start in December, and starting in January will have their own "Small Bore" run group. For more information:
https://www.nasaproracing.com/event/996

Thanks, and hope to pass you soon! : ^ )

Steve Nix

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quote:
YOU CAN NOT RELY ON SCCA ALONE TO HANDLE THIS..
... or at all. [duck]

d mathias Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Speaking of NASA, I was at the inaugural NASA Championship. We were told that ANY contact may result in the early end to your weekend. We all believed this and took the message to heart. The event was some of the cleanest, most fun racing I've ever been in.

It wouldn't take much for any sanctioning body, at any event, to repeat this; clearly state the rules and swiftly back it up with action.

If 'that guy' continuously got sent home, without refund, for the remainder of the weekend after boning another driver in a Saturday a.m. qualifier, I bet he/she would get the message after a while.

P.S. I don't think this is an SM issue only, or that we're asking for special treatment, this should be applied to all classes.

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This thread reminds me of why I like our local track's 13/13 rule.

--------------------
Lee Tilton
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quote:
Originally posted by Drago:
B) Protest people who are unsafe

E)don't bitch and moan if you have never protested anyone for rough driving.

[/QB]

Jim:
I've protested two drivers in six years. Both incidents were ruled a racing incident. Both were anything but. That aside, what Denny said +1.
Rick

--------------------
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quote:
Originally posted by disquek:
Jim,

With all due respect. The "protest or quit bitching" approach is how we got here. It's not the solution.

-Kyle

Kyle,

And respectively, moaning about it on SM.com will do nothing either. People have to step up and take action if it matters to them. Complaining about it and hoping another will pursue the crusade will resolve nothing.

I have hit and been hit a few times over the years. In all cases the issue was resolved satisfactory, either by a learning discussion or my protest in which the drivers were penalized.

Individual effort was required for all cases. I didn't expect and the steward did not initiate the actions.

--------------------
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Wreckers or checkers....right brothas?
[rockband]

[rolling on floor laughin]

--------------------
Taylor Ferranti

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quote:
Originally posted by taylorf:
Wreckers or checkers....right brothas?
[rockband]

[rolling on floor laughin]

Isn't that on the Texas flag somewhere? [flamed]

A side note: Did Blake tell you that I put his Texas flag on upside down to piss him off! [thumbsup]

--------------------
Jim Drago
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EAST STREET RACING

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quote:
Originally posted by taylorf:
Wreckers or checkers....right brothas?
[rockband]

[rolling on floor laughin]

Yep. There's a lot of money and reputations on the line down here in Texas. :-)

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Move to CENDiv or GLDiv and drive like you would like to be driven against.

7 seasons, ONE trip to the body shop. A couple $4 trophies along the way, none of which are non-embarassing to display. (I suggest you steal your cousin's cat show/beekeeping/4-H/Cub Scout Pinewood Derby trophy and put your "1st place" brass engraving on it and hope nobody notices).

Do you have any idea what kind of trophy you can buy for the cost of one trip to the body shop? [Wink]

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quote:
Originally posted by Drago:
A side note: Did Blake tell you that I put his Texas flag on upside down to piss him off! [thumbsup]

I guess I can count you in for the 2010 Runoffs Texas Flagburning Welcome Party?

(It was done did scheduled for that there 2009 12 Hours Of Nelson Ledges deal, but after Mac done did blowed his motor we Yankees done did felt "sorry" for all his all's team)

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I'm sure most of you saw my protest. But it bothered me to do it. You see how far it went and a lot of time involved. I shouldn't have had to. When you have a driver who has mutiple contacts called in by the workers, why should I have to? In my opinion the stewards should have done it on there own.


Jim, I understand what you meant by elevate yourself to the upper 1/3, but not everyone can be in that 1/3 (for a lot of reasons). Besides if everyone was in the upper 1/3 there would not bottom 2/3???. Unfortunately there are some who what I call "don't have the head for it" no matter how fast the cars is.

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Charlie Campbell
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soupy
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What DR. Bobmark said. Some of the closest, best, cleanest, funnest racing I've had were in GLDiv and CenDiv.

--------------------
Charlie Campbell
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This past weekend at Sebring, I qualified 14th out of 52 cars. That certainly qualifies for top 1/3, right? In turn 3, I got my driver side mirror almost torn off by a guy in a blue '99 with green decals (I'll let you guess). I was on the outside and was flat out driven into. A few turns later, he drives into the side of the car in front of him, and sends him off course at turn ten. Understandably, he has a terrible run out of ten, so I'm catching him quite quickly. As I start to pull alongside of him at the pit-out for the short course, he chops me off. I have the donut from his right rear right in the middle of my door from that incident. Luckily the fender popped back out for the most part, and didn't eat the tire up enough to cause permanent damage.

I might have spent $15k TOTAL (including the price of the car and build) since I started racing SM back in early '06. My truck is a '96 Chevy with 225k on it, pulling an open single axle trailer somebody built in the late '70's to haul around a Pinto for the Daytona Dash series. As you can see, I don't have a lot of money to spend, especially on bodywork. How much further up the 1/3 do I have to go to avoid this??? Spending an extra $25 so I can be told "It was a racing incident", and creating ill-will towards a team that has MUCH more money than I do to make my life at the track miserable, is not an option.

I was planning on running the Sebring National next month, but if I'm gonna be mid-pack at that, forget it, I don't have the resources...

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'90 Spec Miata
'90 Street Miata
'96 Chevy 1500
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Brian Ghidinelli Verified Driver
Moonwalker

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How many of you who have these incidents with insufficient steward action run video?

Video with a wide-angle lens is your #1 offense/defense for a solid, defensible protest. Just be forewarned the video may not always tell the same story you remember!

(Also happens to be a great learning aid)

racerfink Verified Driver
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Video doesn't mean a thing to stewards, I've found. I protested a guy at Moroso, back when I ran ITC. I showed the video (Sony Super-8) at the times when I was hit. The first incident brought "Well, you could have just spun your wheels there". This was a '72 Corolla SR-5 with 96hp AT THE CRANK. Couple that with the 2.5 times wider, and no telling how much stickier tires vs. the stock ones. Keep in mind I held the track record there at the time.

The other incident was half a lap later. His 510 had a LOT more hp (I'm gonna guess 30hp more), so as he passed me down the front stretch, he came over HARD, and nearly took us both into the starters stand. "Well, he was just trying to get set-up for the turn one chicane". The quick way into that chicane was to be all the way over to the left. I was on the far right of the course.

Most of the times, stewards havn't ever turned a wheel in competition, and it shows in their decisions.

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'90 Spec Miata
'90 Street Miata
'96 Chevy 1500
http://www.AutoTechnikRacing.com
www.myspace.com/projecthband

38BFAST Verified Driver
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It is very common if you right paper you are the bad guy, whiner, PITA, poor sport, sissy, time waster and I am sure more. This comes from fellow competitors and more from our Stewards and SOMs. 8 out of 10 times it comes back “Racing incident”. We hear it a lot “write paper”, It takes a lot of time and effort to write paper. That’s time away from what we paid to come and do, Have fun at the track. What’s the point if it most likely comes back “racing incident”. This has to come from the top. I have seen a driver hit someone every time he goes on track for an entire season. To top it off it was his rookie season. He did not hit a few cars he hit 80% of the field. And you guessed it “it was never his fault”. Paper was written several times. No action was ever taken and the driver did receive his full comp licenses.

Bottom line is it has to start at the TOP. We cannot do it on our own. Well, we can but punting will be involved. Does it have to come to that.

In GLD SM runs very clean for the most part. Its running with IT that is the problem. Last race of the year at Mid-O the top 3 in SM were held up for almost the entire race buy a ITA car. He had no one in his class in sight in front or behind him. To top it off he was also on probation at the time. He had MTL with SM 3 times in the race. You guessed it “No action taken”.

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Ralph Provitz
#38
2008 WHRRI SM Champion
2008 WHRRI Top 10 Overall
V2 Motorsports, Race support, Data Dude

Gatoratty Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Maybe we as a club have forgotten how to police our sport. In the seventies we as corner workers reported contact and the stewards issued an RFA. Sometimes they got it right sometimes they didn't, but they at least tried to enforce the GCR racing room rule. PCA, PBOC, NASA, and other sanctioning bodies do a pretty good job overall of enforcing the no contact rules. As a steward pointed out to me in an email regarding this subject when they try to enforce the no contact rule we call it bump drafting and bitch at them for trying to enforce the rules. One of the things I have noticed is that the guys causing the damage don't have the same budget or lack thereof of the poor bastards they hit.

The SCCA has an obligation to enforce the rules as written. Tech doesn't impound the top cars and then wait for one of the drivers to protest someone.....they enforce the rules by issuing an RFA on behalf of the Chief Steward. The same can and should be done by the stewards regarding contact. If I wanted to enter a demo derby I would go to my local circle track.

By the way Jim B. I can take the heat...that is why I raced this summer instead of taking the summer off! [yep]

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Paul McLester

Jamie Tucker Series Champ

ARRC 2010 Champ

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You want to see why driving in the back sucks! At the Turkey Trot I had a head issue and missed qualifying while Jeff and others from Autotechniks busted their butts changing it. I started DFL somewhere near 50th and was able to race up to 12th in 5 laps of racing without a scratch on my car. If you watch the video it is easy to see that driver awareness improves as I move up. You may want to get your helmet on for this one!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h1fRAr_aCis

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2010 ARRC Champion
2010 CFR Champion
2010 instigator of the year
2010/2011 Andrew Von C Wingman

Zauskycop Verified Driver
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Car #: 45
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...private video. Can't watch

Tracy Ramsey
Team Blenderblaster

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Tracy Ramsey
Team Blenderblaster

Gatoratty Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Jamie your link doesn't work. Did you confuse your racing video with your racey video? [Big Grin]

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Paul McLester

Jamie Tucker Series Champ

ARRC 2010 Champ

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Standby that may have been from my special collection

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2010 ARRC Champion
2010 CFR Champion
2010 instigator of the year
2010/2011 Andrew Von C Wingman

Jamie Tucker Series Champ

ARRC 2010 Champ

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It should work now!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h1fRAr_aCis

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2010 ARRC Champion
2010 CFR Champion
2010 instigator of the year
2010/2011 Andrew Von C Wingman

Gatoratty Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Looks like you tapped 4 cars in that run....by the way when did you change your name to "Midget"? [rolling on floor laughin]

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Paul McLester

Jamie Tucker Series Champ

ARRC 2010 Champ

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That was a present from Cliffy chains! 4 cars??? It was only one car and even that one was very light and didn't even knock the dirt of my bumper. Close yes!! But contact no!

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2010 ARRC Champion
2010 CFR Champion
2010 instigator of the year
2010/2011 Andrew Von C Wingman

Mark McCallister Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
Just graduated from novice to rookie!!

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I think we need to encourage SCCA to encourage stewards to follow the GCR and enforce penalties for contact. We want competitors putting their money into entry fees, not body shops.

But I think some of the best policing that can be done by drivers is right here...post your videos online! Not only does the threat of being called out publicly discourage bad behavior, but it helps us all learn what to do and what not to do in the heat of battle. It's a lot easier to see yourself doing something boneheaded from the camera in the car behind you, than from your own...

Jamie Tucker Series Champ

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quote:
Originally posted by Mark McCallister:
I think we need to encourage SCCA to encourage stewards to follow the GCR and enforce penalties for contact. We want competitors putting their money into entry fees, not body shops.

But I think some of the best policing that can be done by drivers is right here...post your videos online! Not only does the threat of being called out publicly discourage bad behavior, but it helps us all learn what to do and what not to do in the heat of battle. It's a lot easier to see yourself doing something boneheaded from the camera in the car behind you, than from your own...

I fully agree! After watching my video there are things that I would have done different and I am sure other drivers would have as well. Racing those guys in the back at the start as hard as I did may not have been the smartest idea. One thing I did notice is that in the back everyone fights to pass the cars in front of them at the start resulting in a bottle neck; which is just a wreck waiting to happen. In the front you will have the occasional driver who tries to win the race in the first turn but generally most of the drivers try to hold their position for a few turns until it shakes out. They don't block and will give another driver the corner if they think they have their bumper inside or has committed themselves to making the pass. Of course they use their mirrors more than they look out the front so they are aware of what others are doing around them. That is not what I saw in the back from some of the drivers. If you do not want contact it is imperative that you give people enough room plus what amount you think they need to screw up the pass. For example, if you get dive bombed into the hairpin don't just give the guy the inside and than get pissed when his car slide up in the middle of the turn and hits you. Jump on your brakes, give the guy the whole corner and delay your turn in until he is clear. Chances are he will drift wide and you will just pass him again. One of my cars was involved in exactly that scenario at the Turkey Trot and it resulted in 4 wrecked cars. Yes the driver who dive bombed the turn was at fault but the idea is not to damage cars and to avoid contact. You don't have to be fast or have the best car to be considered a good driver; avoiding contact and thinking ahead is usually enough. [twocents]

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2010 ARRC Champion
2010 CFR Champion
2010 instigator of the year
2010/2011 Andrew Von C Wingman

Gatoratty Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Jamie what you also probably noticed is that the pole sitter often comes around 17 and then brakes before the start to get a run on the guys around him. The effect back in the pack is near misses and smashed rear ends. At the SIC didn't a front runner drive down the inside into turn one to "pass cars at the start" and caused Danny and others some problems. It isn't just the back markers who do that.

I agree with you regarding racing room........that was the point of this whole thread. You can give people racing room and avoid contact and still beat them. You just have to use skill and planning on where and how to make the pass.

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Paul McLester

Colin MacLean Verified Driver
Fly Fifer

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quote:
Originally posted by Jamie Tucker:
It should work now!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h1fRAr_aCis

WOW. That's genuinely frightening. In the racing I've done I've usually found the guys at the back of the pack to be extremely courteous and always watching their mirrors. Seems to be the exact opposite here. Maybe the Florida sun in their eyes [Wink]

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Colin MacLean
Flyin' MacLean Motorsports

racerfink Verified Driver
Gig 'em Aggies

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If you notice too, a lot of those guys back there have AWFULLY strong motors. It's their braking and cornering that leaves a lot to be desired.

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'90 Spec Miata
'90 Street Miata
'96 Chevy 1500
http://www.AutoTechnikRacing.com
www.myspace.com/projecthband

Brian Ghidinelli Verified Driver
Moonwalker

Region: SFR
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Year : 99
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quote:
Originally posted by racerfink:
Video doesn't mean a thing to stewards, I've found. ...

Most of the times, stewards havn't ever turned a wheel in competition, and it shows in their decisions.

I have had the opposite experience where video saved my bacon when a more experienced and more well known racer protested me. Ultimately _he_ wound up with the penalty and probation thanks to my video. With humans as stewards, it's going to vary from region to region and event to event. If I was wronged in the kind of way you described, I'd be frustrated too.

FWIW, I didn't think Jamie's video was that scary (but nice driving!) Is there a mix of talent and capability? Sure - but we all started somewhere as newbies in the deep end. Drive a mixed-class enduro like the Thunderhill 25 hour and that video will seem like par for the course by your second stint!

Jamie Tucker Series Champ

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quote:
Originally posted by Gatoratty:
Jamie what you also probably noticed is that the pole sitter often comes around 17 and then brakes before the start to get a run on the guys around him. The effect back in the pack is near misses and smashed rear ends. At the SIC didn't a front runner drive down the inside into turn one to "pass cars at the start" and caused Danny and others some problems. It isn't just the back markers who do that.

I agree with you regarding racing room........that was the point of this whole thread. You can give people racing room and avoid contact and still beat them. You just have to use skill and planning on where and how to make the pass.

In the case of the SIC it was a mid-pack driver that was at fault not a front qualifier. Also at the SIC there are very few drivers that most people would consider back markers regardless of where they are running. As far as the pole sitter brake checking people I have not found that not to be the case. They may slow or speed up depending on what is best for their car but the brake checking usually comes from the second row back as they are trying to beat the pole sitter to the gas while timing the green flag; which of course gets worse the further back you are. But your right the purpose of the thread you started was racing room. To that point I do feel that sometimes we have to give more room than we are required to in order to avoid contact. I would rather bitch about how I had to avoid contact than to bitch about my car being tore up. This is only for fun and the cost of repairing these cars can get expensive in a hurry.

--------------------
2010 ARRC Champion
2010 CFR Champion
2010 instigator of the year
2010/2011 Andrew Von C Wingman

 
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