Region: Houston; SWDIV
Car #: 15
Year : 99 Posts: 680
Status: Offline
posted
If true, unwise decision in my opinion for the competitors opening it up to anyone (basically). No doubt it is a move to improve attendance, but I think some sort of performance criteria should still exist.
On the other hand I guess, it is absolutely no change for most classes as they are usally so little subscibed that anyone can to to the Runoffs anyway. Top ten is really only an issue in what, SM, SRF, FV, and maybe 1 or 2 others.
-------------------- James York
sponsored by: Stan's Auto Center, Lafayette LA powered by: East Street Racing, Memphis TN set up guru: Gilfus Racing, Austin TX
Region: Houston; SWDIV
Car #: 15
Year : 99 Posts: 680
Status: Offline
posted
quote:Originally posted by Drago: Hopefully it will increase participation in the bigger classes like SM.. What do you guys think? It was a CRB recommendation... So if you don't like, it's my fault I guess Hopefully this will entice people who didn't want to run multiple races to have enough points and those who did want to come that were just outside the top 10 etc. I would love to see a 75 car field Jim
It's your fault Jim. I like the intent, opening it up to highly competative and high population division, but think some sort of screening could still be done.
Take the super sweep national points for example. It uses finishing order and number of driver behind to determine points. So it is very likely someone constantly finishing in say 8th or 9th in our division would accumulate more points than a driver in a less entries division finishing 3rd or 4th.
At seasons' end, some divisions had drivers outside their respective top ten with quite a bit more super sweep points than other divisions 4th and up drivers. Maybe Runoffs invites don't need to be even between all divisions?
Although considering the overall picture, it probably won't change much except a few more folks might attend that were shutout of the top ten from the larger divisions (we might have sent one or two more). I guess it is worth a try.
I just remember when I went to the NASA Championships the first and only time in 2006 and we caught the back packers in 2-3 laps.
-------------------- James York
sponsored by: Stan's Auto Center, Lafayette LA powered by: East Street Racing, Memphis TN set up guru: Gilfus Racing, Austin TX
Region: kc
Car #: 20
Year : 92 Posts: 1801
Status: Offline
posted
The only thing that this will really change is in a few classes in a few divisions. Turning away the 12th place car from one division, while only 6 of the top ten go from another division, doesn't make a lot of sense. Runoffs invitation requirements have change several times, over the years. Every time it happens the traditionalists don't like it and others think it is a good idea. It probably will increase the field size in several classes and have no effect on everyone else. Besides, RA is one big race track. wheel
Region: CFR
Car #: 97
Year : 1990/99 Posts: 788
Status: Offline
posted
I like the rule change! In the SE Division we have very strong national cars all the way back to 15 or so in the points. It is better for some of us to be able to skip a couple Nationals and save our money for the runoffs.
-------------------- 2010 ARRC Champion 2010 CFR Champion 2010 instigator of the year 2010/2011 Andrew Von C Wingman
Region: SW - Houston
Car #: 6
Year : 99, 96 Posts: 2262
Status: Offline
posted
As someone who has had their share of dealing with lapped/slower cars in the Runoffs, I'll say that this will lead to a more spread out field and possibly more "lapped cars".
As someone who hopes to exploit this to qualify for the Runoffs, bring it on.
-------------------- Blake Clements
PhillipsRacePrep/SP Induction Systems/East Street Racing/MiataCage.com/Carbotech/WBR Graphics
Region: Atlanta
Car #: 99
Year : 99 Posts: 342
Status: Offline
posted
I think this will definitely hurt some regions race attendance.I was planning on running Homestead and Sebring but now i'll wait and race closer to home."Chasing" points is no longer necessary.
Region: kc
Car #: 20
Year : 92 Posts: 1801
Status: Offline
posted
It may, in fact, help some region's race attendance. Somebody sitting there with two or three races and few, or no, points, decides to go to the Runoffs for the fun of it all. He enters two more races, that he wouldn't have entered, to make his four.
Region: NASA Texas
Car #: 8
Year : 92 Posts: 697
Status: Offline
posted
I think this change will hurt the prestige of the runoffs now that any larry can go. It will also hurt the attendant of all national races not at Road America. I believe the correct thing to do would have been to weight runoff invites to a division's average national race attendance; making it harder in most classes/divisions to get an invite.
-------------------- William Keeling a.k.a. Willie the Tard
Region: Indy
Car #: 33
Year : 1994 Posts: 422
Status: Offline
posted
Sounds to me like this some kind of typo or incomplete summary.
Opening the runoffs to anyone with no more qualifications than 4 starts and finishes (2 in division) would be a BIG mistakeIMHO ....particulary in highly subscribed classes like SM and SRF. The fast guys who truly know how to race (not just drive around semi alone and cut a fairly decent lap time) will have to "dodge" the folks that shouldn't really be there.... I predict plenty of sheet metal carnage. The runoffs are supposed to be for the best talent....not anyone with a pulse.
I say this knowing my position would exclude ME in my SM. I may have been worthy in my HP sprite (my best runoffs finish was 4th in 2000)a few years ago but in my SM I would just be in the way of the fast boys.
-------------------- "In our sport if you go out of bounds you're most likely not coming back" Michael Waltrip
Region: mid south
Car #: 2
Year : 1999 Posts: 4275
Status: Offline
posted
One thing to consider, even with a full race with no cautions, it is doubftul lapped traffic will come into play, it didnt this year. My opinion is the best will still race for the win and many others will race all the way through the field. Jim
Region: kc
Car #: 20
Year : 92 Posts: 1801
Status: Offline
posted
The Runoffs pole was 2:45. Last on the grid was 2:53. That's 8 seconds difference. With a 13 lap race, the final grid position would have to turn a lap about 13 seconds slower than the pole, for the pole car to catch them by the end of the race. I don't think lapped traffic will be that big a deal.
Region: ner
Car #: 88
Year : 90 Posts: 239
Status: Offline
posted
So, why have nationals or regionals? What is the difference? You only need 4 regionls to have a national license, run 4 nationals and go to the runoffs. Just have races, no need to seperate them anymore! Make life a whole lot easier!
Region: OVR
Car #: 88
Year : 1991 Posts: 2401
Status: Offline
posted
Seeing how only 4 (I think) drivers out of a possible 10 from the Great Lakes Div. attended in 2009, and only 1 attended in 2008, I don't see anything negative about this. NASA's Champs have always been attendance based only and I don't think it's been a problem.
Personally, just because I could go doesn't mean I would. I see no point in spending 1+ weeks and $$$$ just to say I did it.
-Denny
[edit: I agree with Jerry (above), I don't see why the SCCA continues with separate national and regional programs. Why not just call it all 'club racing']
Region: Indy
Car #: 55
Year : 94 Posts: 88
Status: Offline
posted
I like the idea. I have finished 10th on occasion and that was a waste of a weekend if you were qualifying for the runoffs or chasing points it was the same as 40th and I did some things that I probably should not have done or wouldn't have done with just having to finish a number of races to qualify.
It certainly helps the 94's (mine and the three others left). At least I will qualify. I still probably won't go, but I do love Road America.
Region: Southwest
Car #: 11
Year : 99 and 93 Posts: 347
Status: Offline
posted
Dennis,
The 94 is COTY in 2010, haven't you heard? Well I made the top 10 in my region last year but did not go due to travel distance and $$$ cost. But it's nice to know I could go next year even if I'm a slacker.
-------------------- Gale Corley 99 SM GRE Super Deluxe 93 SM GRE Jr. Deluxe
quote:Originally posted by d mathias: [edit: I agree with Jerry (above), I don't see why the SCCA continues with separate national and regional programs. Why not just call it all 'club racing']
After flagging both nationals and regionals for years I am of the thinking you HAVE to keep a difference. Think outside the SM box on this one, across all SCCA classes there are some pretty significant car prep/driver prep differences between national and regional.
-------------------- All this has happened before, and will happen again
Region: southwest
Car #: 14
Year : 90 Posts: 739
Status: Offline
posted
quote:After flagging both nationals and regionals for years I am of the thinking you HAVE to keep a difference. Think outside the SM box on this one, across all SCCA classes there are some pretty significant car prep/driver prep differences between national and regional.
there really is a purpose to regional classes. In my area, SRX7 was very popular for around 10 years are so. Seems less so these days. And the various IT flavors allow some regional flexability. ITE seems to be the "misc/what ever shows up and does not fit" class. Not everyone wants to go to the run offs but still wants to race a couple of weekends a year.
-------------------- "The problem with Socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money." ~Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher "A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have." ~Thomas Jefferson
There are cars/drivers that for whatever reason perform at a certain level and in rare cases it presents an issue.. most of the time not so much. I certainly do not want someone who just got out of drivers school at Roebling in a T1 Vette be able to come run the March SCCA National out there with a significant influx of GT1's due to the Trans-Am being there. Without any separation of nat/reg that could have happened last year.
Not to mention you have lots of regional classes that folks don't want to run national with. There is a huge difference between a national SRF driver and regional SRF driver, at least that is what I have seen in SEDIV. FP national record at Roebling was set this year at a 17.2, best FP time at the SIC was 19.9. EP had a couple of second difference and I think GTL was the same.
-------------------- All this has happened before, and will happen again
Region: Indy
Car #: 33
Year : 1994 Posts: 422
Status: Offline
posted
Well I just checked the 2009 GCR, page 19 Runoffs eligibility.....we are interpreting this correctly on this thread. If the economy picks up....wonder where Road America will paddock 2000 entries. Plus, imagine how little track time everyone will get due to tow trucks dragging the broken/crashedback markers off the track. I smell trouble a brewin. Thanks, Jay
-------------------- "In our sport if you go out of bounds you're most likely not coming back" Michael Waltrip
quote:Originally posted by Jay Lutz: Plus, imagine how little track time everyone will get due to tow trucks dragging the broken/crashedback markers off the track. I smell trouble a brewin. Thanks, Jay
Yes, because it's only the back markers that break/wreck.
-------------------- All this has happened before, and will happen again
Region: SFR
Car #: 70
Year : 1990 Posts: 768
Status: Offline
posted
I do not think back markers will be an issue. Back markers you will get at the runoffs should be better at letting the leaders through than those at a regional level. If issues do arise it should be evident during qualifying sessions, then stewards can take appropriate action.
Region: ner
Car #: 88
Year : 90 Posts: 239
Status: Offline
posted
Lance, I think your missing something. There is no difference in quality of drivers between National and regional, it's the same guys. Do you think after 4 regional races you are a better driver? because that's all it takes to go National. If I'm not mistaken there was a young man running at the runoffs that was only 16 1/2. So, in 6 month he did 2 drivers schools, 4 regionals and 4 nationals, what makes him better?
Region: mid south
Car #: 2
Year : 1999 Posts: 4275
Status: Offline
posted
quote:Originally posted by Lance Snyder: [QUOTE]Originally posted by d mathias: [qb] [edit: I agree with Jerry (above), I don't see why the SCCA continues with separate national and regional programs. Why not just call it all 'club racing']
Region: Chicago
Car #: 94 Posts: 176
Status: Offline
posted
Don't like the change. It's a National Championship. There should be more to earning the invitation than participation only IMO. More cars might mean more carnage and more yellow flags which I think we'd like to avoid.
[ 12-12-2009, 12:49 AM: Message edited by: Tom Sager ]
Region: CFR
Car #: 97
Year : 1990/99 Posts: 788
Status: Offline
posted
Sure! I should have to spend more money to go the runoffs because that will make the racing better? Those of us who plan on going to the runoffs will be going regardless of the rule change. The only difference is I don't have to spend an additional $5000 chasing points to do it and will be able to better use my resources for when it counts. 4 nationals and the cost of the runoffs is more than it takes to weed out a driver that only drives a few times a year. In fact I think you will see better drivers and more competitive cars at the runoffs because of the rule change.
-------------------- 2010 ARRC Champion 2010 CFR Champion 2010 instigator of the year 2010/2011 Andrew Von C Wingman
Region: Northwest
Car #: 86
Year : 1995 Posts: 372
Status: Offline
posted
Everyone on the thread seems to agree that this will result in as many or more people going to the Runoffs next year than this year. What I don't understand is why people think this will make the Runoffs less prestigious. Isn't it more impressive to beat more people than fewer?
-------------------- Stephen Hui - '95 SM #86, Northwest / Oregon Region SCCA
quote:Originally posted by NER88: Lance, I think your missing something. There is no difference in quality of drivers between National and regional, it's the same guys. Do you think after 4 regional races you are a better driver? because that's all it takes to go National. If I'm not mistaken there was a young man running at the runoffs that was only 16 1/2. So, in 6 month he did 2 drivers schools, 4 regionals and 4 nationals, what makes him better?
You got it in your head that national = better, that is most certainly not the case and frankly has no bearing on this discussion. National is a license grade attained after certain requirements are met. Being a better driver has NOTHING to do with it. Plenty of damned good drivers outside of SM only run regionals, hell there are still hotshoes that only run regional SM. Big picture here, not class.
Difference between National and Regional, best laps from Tom Nehl vs SIC:
Roebling Road: EP Nat - 18.628 EP SIC - 20.084
FP Nat - 17.252 FP SIC - 19.972
FF Nat - 12.988 FF SIC - 14.100
SRF Nat - 20.534 (6 drivers within 2 tenths of FT) SRF SIC - 21.960 (0 drivers within 2 tenths of FT)
DSR Nat - 03.674 DSR SIC - 10.848
T2 Nat - 22.358 T2 SIC - 31.952
FE Nat - 09.278 FE SIC - 10.716
Some pretty wide disparity in both fast times in each class and in the case of SRF and FE(true spec classes) significant differences. So assuming we get rid of regional/national distinction how do you add new classes? What do you do with classes like FST,CF, CFC, GTA, SPO/U, etc? I think most of the IT folks really don't want to go national but by losing the distinction they'll have their own regroup every club weekend. Merging regional and national, how much track time are you willing to lose? Maybe go down to a single 20 minute session for qualifying? If let's say 50 baby grand drivers come forward saying they would support their own class at the regional level without a nat/reg distinction do we have to go through national to add the class?
I'm all for trying things differently but getting rid of the national/regional distinction really has not much to gain and a lot to lose.
-------------------- All this has happened before, and will happen again
Region: kc
Car #: 20
Year : 92 Posts: 1801
Status: Offline
posted
The car limit, for any track, is:
A. The maximum number of cars that may be started simultaneously on any course shall be twenty-five (25) per mile. B. The maximum number of cars that may occupy a course in practice, qualifying, or a race shall not exceed twenty-five (25) per mile, and then only if an extreme speed differential does not exist between the fastest and the slowest cars. C. Only the Executive Steward of the Division may authorize an increase in this number or may require a decrease for any or all car classes.
Road America is listed as 4.0 miles on the Runoffs result sheets. So, pretty simple, 100 cars.
Region: CFR
Car #: 97
Year : 1990/99 Posts: 788
Status: Offline
posted
quote:Originally posted by Lance Snyder:
quote:Originally posted by NER88: Lance, I think your missing something. There is no difference in quality of drivers between National and regional, it's the same guys. Do you think after 4 regional races you are a better driver? because that's all it takes to go National. If I'm not mistaken there was a young man running at the runoffs that was only 16 1/2. So, in 6 month he did 2 drivers schools, 4 regionals and 4 nationals, what makes him better?
You got it in your head that national = better, that is most certainly not the case and frankly has no bearing on this discussion. National is a license grade attained after certain requirements are met. Being a better driver has NOTHING to do with it. Plenty of damned good drivers outside of SM only run regionals, hell there are still hotshoes that only run regional SM. Big picture here, not class.
Difference between National and Regional, best laps from Tom Nehl vs SIC:
Roebling Road: EP Nat - 18.628 EP SIC - 20.084
FP Nat - 17.252 FP SIC - 19.972
FF Nat - 12.988 FF SIC - 14.100
SRF Nat - 20.534 (6 drivers within 2 tenths of FT) SRF SIC - 21.960 (0 drivers within 2 tenths of FT)
DSR Nat - 03.674 DSR SIC - 10.848
T2 Nat - 22.358 T2 SIC - 31.952
FE Nat - 09.278 FE SIC - 10.716
Some pretty wide disparity in both fast times in each class and in the case of SRF and FE(true spec classes) significant differences. So assuming we get rid of regional/national distinction how do you add new classes? What do you do with classes like FST,CF, CFC, GTA, SPO/U, etc? I think most of the IT folks really don't want to go national but by losing the distinction they'll have their own regroup every club weekend. Merging regional and national, how much track time are you willing to lose? Maybe go down to a single 20 minute session for qualifying? If let's say 50 baby grand drivers come forward saying they would support their own class at the regional level without a nat/reg distinction do we have to go through national to add the class?
I'm all for trying things differently but getting rid of the national/regional distinction really has not much to gain and a lot to lose.
Come on now! Those times mean nothing! Trying to compare two different events like that is impossible because there are way to many variables. If you look at the entry list for those two races you will see a lot of the same drivers and cars. Conditions are key just as they were at the last Sebring regional where everybody and their grandmother were below the old track record. I understand your point but driver ability has very little to do with running nationals. When we have our quad nationals down here in Florida we will have the same crew as always with a couple extra people added in. Nothing special (unless you count Cliffy Chains and his bling bling ride)
-------------------- 2010 ARRC Champion 2010 CFR Champion 2010 instigator of the year 2010/2011 Andrew Von C Wingman
Conditions have everything to do with 7 seconds in DSR, 9 seconds in T2, nearly 3 seconds in FP, 1.4 seconds in SRF(and the fact 6 drivers were within 2 tenths at the national while no one was within 2 tenths of the fast time at the SIC, obviously it's the conditions)? I picked the Tom Nehl and the SIC because conditions are relatively close to each other, somewhat of a difference but certainly not 7 seconds.
Times are just part of it, what would happen to SSM? Since all weekends would be just a club race how would they get into the show? Why dick around with regional series that work?
Again, folks need to come WORK the races, watch the difference between regional and national in ALL classes over a year. Watch the competition level differences, SRF it's plainly obvious the regional vs national difference... then again I only worked 4 nationals and 4 regionals this year.
-------------------- All this has happened before, and will happen again
Region: CFR
Car #: 97
Year : 1990/99 Posts: 788
Status: Offline
posted
Yes conditions! Many of the same drivers just slower times. In none spec classes huge disparities always exist; thats nothing new. It just depends on who shows up. We had a Daytona Prototype show up at Daytona once I guess we should just use his lap times. But again what do I know I only drove in 6 Nationals and many regionals (including the SIC and ARRC) last year.
-------------------- 2010 ARRC Champion 2010 CFR Champion 2010 instigator of the year 2010/2011 Andrew Von C Wingman
If huge disparities always exist why at a National in SRF did you have a .2 spread with 6 drivers while at the SIC you didn't have any driver within .2 of the fastest time? They always exist right? Why do you see it at the regional level vs national level?
Does a Daytona Prototype run an SCCA national class? I am comparing classes that run nationally and regionally. Same track, 2 different groups of drivers.
You drove in SM right? That's it, what did you do during the break in sessions? Just because it happens in SM doesn't mean it's true across all the classes. SM is an unique beast, using SM to make decisions for an entire club racing nation is absurd to say the least.
Since you are for no distinction for national and regional what are you gonna do with classes like SSM, FST, CFF, CFC, GTA, SPO/U, F6 and ITx? Do they disappear? Where in a weekend do they race if they are all eligible too? How much track time are the national guys willing to lose to incorporate all of SCCA club racing into 1 weekend every weekend? Knock it down to 30 minute sessions maybe? Could also be less depending on the amount of groups.
-------------------- All this has happened before, and will happen again
Region: ner
Car #: 88
Year : 90 Posts: 239
Status: Offline
posted
Lance I'm not sure what you are talking about? At our races up in the NE we have all the National classes available at our regionals. And,I make no decissions based on SM alone.
All national classes are available to regionals but not all regional classes are available to nationals. When comparing the same classes as I did above at the same track the speeds were slower, there were also a wider spread of talent (as in SRF). What do you do with those regional only classes(couldn't compare lap times because well, they don't run nationals)?
-------------------- All this has happened before, and will happen again
Region: Southwest
Car #: 74
Year : 1999 Posts: 151
Status: Offline
posted
Do not like. Those saying "it will save me thousands." (Besides Blake and any others that have been outside of the country) Did you run the NASA championship last year? Also, after reading a lot of the posts, it looks like it is going to hurt the divisional SM field. I mean why waste money to finish in the top ten when you can just drive around a track 4 times and qualify? Horrible decision SCCA, horrible. Lowering of standards will result in a lowering of turn outs
Region: NWR / Oregon
Car #: 88
Year : 95 Posts: 2000
Status: Offline
posted
I don't think you'll see a vast number of other entries show up due to the cost.
In my region, even the back markers that get lapped by other back markers have enough races under their belts to qualify for a national license. The field sizes are much smaller in the nationals races though.
In our regionals, the fastest and slowest qual times can be as far as 20+ secs apart on a 2 mile track. The vast majority is within 5 seconds or so. In the nats events the times are usually within about 4-5 secs with a lot of people running within probably 2secs. The people who aren't at that speed choose to relocate the tape on their class markings to run in IT, spend less cash and race other cars rather than driving alone off the back or getting in the way of the people who are competitive.
-------------------- Keith Novak (Will work for tires)
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I like the intent, opening it up to highly competative and high population division, but think some sort of screening could still be done. 
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The vast majority is within 5 seconds or so. In the nats events the times are usually within about 4-5 secs with a lot of people running within probably 2secs. The people who aren't at that speed choose to relocate the tape on their class markings to run in IT, spend less cash and race other cars rather than driving alone off the back or getting in the way of the people who are competitive.
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