Hey guys, I thought that I would share this in-car video with all of you so can see how the 2 cars compare at Road Atlanta. I still think that the 2 cars are almost dead even, however the 99 leading the way on a straight is tough to overcome if you are in a 1.6. There is a lap or two where I get a great run going onto the back straight where I can suck up behind Mark Pombo, but its not easy! I just wanted to say thanks to Mark Pombo for racing me clean this race, I had a ton of fun!
Region: SE
Car #: 39
Year : 1999 Posts: 835
Status: Offline
posted
Thanks for the video Joey as Steve says - awesome driving.
I will tell you as someone with a few laps at RA, that car is wicked fast - shift points are incredibly early, and the anility to run T7 and get great exit speed in 3rdbgear in a 1.6 is almost unheard of, let alone catch a Pombo 99 before the Mazda bridge, and bump SEVERAL times coming into 10A - WOW!!! Yeah I know he gets a bad exit and lap 2 of the video is more realistic, but nevertheless - T7 in 3rd in a 1.6 WOW - I remember when Lamb and I were defending running third in the 99's through T7 and others were saying that 2nd would be better (not the case) but no-onw eould ever have predicted that a 1.6 motor could be so strong to pull 3rd through T7.
Being able to hit 5th under the start finish bridge - Unbeleivable!
And having to soft pedal behind Pombo anywhere at RA means that you have one strong car!!!
Region: 011
Car #: 47
Year : 94 Posts: 488
Status: Offline
posted
+ 1 what mr boerboel said above, no doubt mr joey sure can drive ... crisp turn ins and carries incredible speed through the turns. also +10 on the "strong car" comment, by far the absolute strongest 1.6 i have ever seen ... builds revs and pulls like a M/F ... 5th by the starter stand just past the bridge ?? 5th just past T-8, 250' before the flagggers stand at T-9 ?? ya gotta be kidding ... if thats a Bobby T, i want one of those, that car coulda/woulda won at the Runoffs !! remember, the guy in the silver '99 he was following was the fastest guy at the RunOffs, an accredited Master at Road Atlanta .... Why you post that video and mess up my notion that the 1.6 has no business up front at Rd Atl ??
Region: mid south
Car #: 2
Year : 1999 Posts: 4275
Status: Offline
posted
I deleted posts two or three times this AM as I didn't want to get into this debate. ... But as I said after the race... If that 1.6 wasn't fairly matched, not sure which would be? Maybe Joeys personal car that is what did you say, plus 2 or 3 hp? For reference... My weak 99 and Todd Lambs weak 99 seemed to draft up to the same silver car about the same as that poor little 1.6 car Check out Runoffs video for comparison. Jim
Region: mid south
Car #: 2
Year : 1999 Posts: 4275
Status: Offline
posted
quote:Originally posted by Teamfour: That's friggin amazing.
With all due respect to Joey...What was truly amazing was the guy that led flag to flag. He never slipped, slid or spun, actually never put a wheel wrong the entire race! It was truly one of the best drives I have ever seen in SM. Congrats again Cliff! Jim
Region: CFR
Car #: 97
Year : 1990/99 Posts: 788
Status: Offline
posted
Thats B*ll S*it!! You all can say what you want but there is no way that a 1.6 is going to be that strong legally. No offense to Joey who can obviously wheel the car but that is nonsense. 3rd through T7 and 5th at the exit of 12 in a 1.6 just does not add up. Hell on the lap where you are passing Lucy in turn 7 you hit the rev limiter in 2nd and still shift into 5th way before any other 1.6 with a promotor.
-------------------- 2010 ARRC Champion 2010 CFR Champion 2010 instigator of the year 2010/2011 Andrew Von C Wingman
Region: WDCR - 042
Car #: 75
Year : 93 & 95 & 99 Posts: 3727
Status: Offline
posted
And that 1.6 is not the fastest 1.6 I have to regularly race against.
-------------------- Mike Collins MEATHEAD Racing http://www.SHEETZ.com The MEATHEAD Racing 2010 Calendar is up!!!! www.MEATHEADRacing.com SMAC Member WDCR-SCCA SM Drivers Rep. ALL OPINIONS ON RULES OR SPECIFICATIONS ARE JUST THAT, MY OPINIONS!
Region: SW - Houston
Car #: 6
Year : 99, 96 Posts: 2262
Status: Offline
posted
quote:Originally posted by Jamie Tucker: Thats B*ll S*it!! You all can say what you want but there is no way that a 1.6 is going to be that strong legally. No offense to Joey who can obviously wheel the car but that is nonsense. 3rd through T7 and 5th at the exit of 12 in a 1.6 just does not add up.
Are you standing on the chair shouting again?
-------------------- Blake Clements
PhillipsRacePrep/SP Induction Systems/East Street Racing/MiataCage.com/Carbotech/WBR Graphics
Region: CFR
Car #: 97
Year : 1990/99 Posts: 788
Status: Offline
posted
quote:Originally posted by Blake Clements:
quote:Originally posted by Jamie Tucker: Thats B*ll S*it!! You all can say what you want but there is no way that a 1.6 is going to be that strong legally. No offense to Joey who can obviously wheel the car but that is nonsense. 3rd through T7 and 5th at the exit of 12 in a 1.6 just does not add up.
Are you standing on the chair shouting again?
Hell i'm on a ladder and still only 5'. What part of the world are you in? I hear you will be in Sebring; it should be fun.
-------------------- 2010 ARRC Champion 2010 CFR Champion 2010 instigator of the year 2010/2011 Andrew Von C Wingman
Region: NeOh
Car #: 45
Year : 1991 Posts: 858
Status: Offline
posted
All I can say is HOLY C@#$ that motor is strong.I only watched 2 to 3 min of it and can't believe how fast the rpm climbs and how much torque it has coming out of the corners.I don't know what turn it is but your coming out in third gear and man does it pull!
Is the car legal (aluminum flywheel) and if it is who is doing your motor?
But I will give you one thing,you sure are working the car!Looks like some of my in car video!
Region: CFR
Car #: 97
Year : 1990/99 Posts: 788
Status: Offline
posted
quote:Originally posted by Mike C: And that 1.6 is not the fastest 1.6 I have to regularly race against.
Mike do you need help writing a protest form? I am sure that there will be plenty of defenders of that car but the sounds, shift points, and acceleration do not add up.
-------------------- 2010 ARRC Champion 2010 CFR Champion 2010 instigator of the year 2010/2011 Andrew Von C Wingman
Thanks for all the compliments on the driving guys! I love all the guys crying that the 1.6 can never legally be this fast, come out to the West coast and especially the NW. Any one of those front 1.6 cars can hang legally with the car that I raced at the ARRC.
Region: CFR
Car #: 97
Year : 1990/99 Posts: 788
Status: Offline
posted
quote:Originally posted by jatterbu: Thanks for all the compliments on the driving guys! I love all the guys crying that the 1.6 can never legally be this fast, come out to the West coast and especially the NW. Any one of those front 1.6 cars can hang legally with the car that I raced at the ARRC.
Joey like I said you are one hell of a driver there is no doubt about that but that car is another issue. I have raced at RA in a 1.6 and 99 and I think it is impossible for a legal car to take the inside line in 7, hit the rev limiter in 2nd, not be in a draft and still hit 5th way before the flag stand on the back stretch. I am sure we can agree to disagree until we are at the same event again and I can put my money where my mouth is
-------------------- 2010 ARRC Champion 2010 CFR Champion 2010 instigator of the year 2010/2011 Andrew Von C Wingman
Region: WDCR
Car #: 04
Year : 1993 Posts: 519
Status: Offline
posted
quote:Originally posted by Drago:
quote:Originally posted by Teamfour: That's friggin amazing.
With all due respect to Joey...What was truly amazing was the guy that led flag to flag. He never slipped, slid or spun, actually never put a wheel wrong the entire race! It was truly one of the best drives I have ever seen in SM. Congrats again Cliff! Jim
No disrespect aimed at Cliff. I never saw an in-car video of his run. As a 1.6 driver, I just found Joey's run awesome. I will say my first thought was that the gearing had been changed.
-------------------- Lee Tilton 1993 Meowta #04 Brimtek Motorsports/ Team Four Racing Team Four Racing
Region: CFR
Car #: 97
Year : 1990/99 Posts: 788
Status: Offline
posted
quote:Originally posted by Teamfour:
quote:Originally posted by Drago:
quote:Originally posted by Teamfour: That's friggin amazing.
With all due respect to Joey...What was truly amazing was the guy that led flag to flag. He never slipped, slid or spun, actually never put a wheel wrong the entire race! It was truly one of the best drives I have ever seen in SM. Congrats again Cliff! Jim
No disrespect aimed at Cliff. I never saw an in-car video of his run. As a 1.6 driver, I just found Joey's run awesome. I will say my first thought was that the gearing had been changed.
That is my belief as well!
-------------------- 2010 ARRC Champion 2010 CFR Champion 2010 instigator of the year 2010/2011 Andrew Von C Wingman
Region: mid south
Car #: 2
Year : 1999 Posts: 4275
Status: Offline
posted
I am looking at T3 and down to the esses, the car carries third to about the same spot as I carry third in my 99, cars have same ratio. Other times he does appear to be shifting early and car was definitely fast. I don't think the car had alternate gears, but that is why we have a protest system, car is probably sitting at Summit point and sure Brian what let anyone who wanted to look at it look at it. Didn't we have this debate last year after the ARRC as well? I also can't imagine a scenario where someone would post a video knowing the had illegal gears in the car? But thats just me.
Region: 011
Car #: 47
Year : 94 Posts: 488
Status: Offline
posted
^^ somebody is getting warmer ... Jamie has the diplomacy of a Viking battle axe
rear end is not where you want to put your money, LISTEN to the motor, the ears do not lie. repeat : That IS the strongest 1.6 i have ever seen ... er, heard. C'mon guys, who we be foolin. the kid can drive, no question, but shows his inexperience by posting a video shot from a camera located behind the driver, with audio ... what concerns me as a racer lookin to get back in SM? he (and others posting here) consider that motor to be 'normal', not the strongest, other 1.6's much faster ... ya gotta be kidding me, short shiftin, backpedalling and STILL runnin all over the Doc in his smokin '99, at Rd Atl ?? either i am clueless or sumtin not right here ...
JIM DANIELS
Guest
Status: Offline
posted
Those opposite wheel corrections tells the story, talent!
Truely amazing to see some of the posts that pop up. Thanks Joey for posting this as I think it really shows just how close the different model cars are. I agree 100% with Joey's summary. I think it clearly shows a 1.6 can run with a 99 but once that 99 gets ahead it's almost impossible to get back around unless the lead car makes a mistake.
For those that don't know, the 1.6 Joey was driving belongs to the Cates family and my son, Devin has been driving that car for the past 3 seasons. Yes, Joey was wheeling the car pretty well, no surprise to me as I saw what he was capable of doing this past season in the VW TDI Cup. He can drive!
We also own a very strong Drago 99 that Devin drove at the ARRC and it had the 4th fastest time in the race. Devin has the option of running the 1.6 or the 99 and at Summit Point he typically chooses the 1.6. Devin ran quicker in qualifying than the exsiting track record on several occasions this past year so yes the 1.6 car is fast.
We bought that car from Mat Pombo back when Devin first started SCCA club racing. Guys there is nothing illegal at all with that car, just a well preparred 1.6 with a strong Race Engineering, Bob Thornton motor. That engine was rebuilt to NASA rules at the beginning of 2008 and Devin ran that car at the NASA run offs at Mid Ohio.
Bret Depedro of RP Performance has maintained the car the car for the past 2 seasons. In 2009 we ran a partial schedule due to Devin's TDI CUP program and the only thing we did to that car this year was change the oil, pads and rotors and check leakdown prior to the ARRC. Bret ran it on the dyno before the ARRC and it made 109 HP at 64000 RPM and max TQ of 99 Ft'lbs at 5400 RPM om a Dyno Dynamics Dyno and using pump gas.
Those are good numbers but nothing spectacular for a 1.6. Ask Bret and I am sure he will tell you he has seen much higher. Or you can ask Mike Collins. (I also have the dyno sheets available)
Now what we did do for the ARRC is run ERC race fuel that was SCCA legal. We also richened the A/F ratio. I figure about another 4hp over what we dynoed.
The transmission is a bone stock Mazda Crate tranny that Bret installed. No fancy gears, no treatments, polishing, etc, just exactly what anyone can buy from Mazda.
The comments about shift points are quite commical. Jamie, not sure what your problem is but you seem to be clearly stating that the car is illegal. You might want to go back and study your dyno charts a little better and learn where to shift. Max torque is at roughly 5400 RPM's, but at 5000 RPM's it's only 1 Ft'lb off. At 4800 RPM, it's only 2 ft. lbs. off. Bottom line is there is absolutely no reason at all to go to 2nd gear at T7 and yes you should be shifting into 5th at the exit onto the pit straight at Atlanta when track conditions are ideal, 40 degrees outside air temp, you are running race fuel and you are 2 feet off the bumper of another car. Sure if it's the middle of the summer, no race fuel and no draft, you will be shifting much further down the straight becasue the car won't have the same power, or speed. But remember, that video shows track record conditions and SM was not the only class to break records that weekend.
There are many SM drivers that way over rev these engines. It might sound like it's faster but it's pretty clear from the dyno charts where the power band is. At 6800 RPM the torque is down 17 ft' lbs and the HP is down 2-1/2. As long as you can keep the engine above 4800 RPM after you shift you are in the sweet spot for the max power.
Region: Oregon
Car #: 68
Year : 91 Posts: 2359
Status: Offline
posted
Jeez guys take a pill it's just fast hands Joey... He grew up in the same regions Andrew did and it shows. You can't beat learning to drive where instead of using umbrellas for the rain, we use them for the sun
I see a strong 1.6 that runs great behind a strong 99 Thnks for the vid Joey.
-b
-------------------- Bruce Wilson 2010 Oregon Region Champ 2010 Monte Shelton Driver of the Year 2010 25 Hours of Thunderhill E3 and Under 2 liter Overall Champion Oregon Region SM Class Advisor
Region: CFR
Car #: 97
Year : 1990/99 Posts: 788
Status: Offline
posted
quote:Originally posted by Brian Cates: Truely amazing to see some of the posts that pop up. Thanks Joey for posting this as I think it really shows just how close the different model cars are. I agree 100% with Joey's summary. I think it clearly shows a 1.6 can run with a 99 but once that 99 gets ahead it's almost impossible to get back around unless the lead car makes a mistake. For those that don't know, the 1.6 Joey was driving belongs to the Cates family and my son, Devin has been driving that car for the past 3 seasons. Yes, Joey was wheeling the car pretty well, no surprise to me as I saw what he was capable of doing this past season in the VW TDI Cup. He can drive!
We also own a very strong Drago 99 that Devin drove at the ARRC and it had the 4th fastest time in the race. Devin has the option of running the 1.6 or the 99 and at Summit Point he typically chooses the 1.6. Devin ran quicker in qualifying than the exsiting track record on several occasions this past year so yes the 1.6 car is fast.
We bought that car from Mat Pombo back when Devin first started SCCA club racing. Guys there is nothing illegal at all with that car, just a well preparred 1.6 with a strong Race Engineering, Bob Thornton motor. That engine was rebuilt to NASA rules at the beginning of 2008 and Devin ran that car at the NASA run offs at Mid Ohio.
Bret Depedro of RP Performance has maintained the car the car for the past 2 seasons. In 2009 we ran a partial schedule due to Devin's TDI CUP program and the only thing we did to that car this year was change the oil, pads and rotors and check leakdown prior to the ARRC. Bret ran it on the dyno before the ARRC and it made 109 HP at 64000 RPM and max TQ of 99 Ft'lbs at 5400 RPM om a Dyno Dynamics Dyno and using pump gas.
Those are good numbers but nothing spectacular for a 1.6. Ask Bret and I am sure he will tell you he has seen much higher. Or you can ask Mike Collins. (I also have the dyno sheets available)
Now what we did do for the ARRC is run ERC race fuel that was SCCA legal. We also richened the A/F ratio. I figure about another 4hp over what we dynoed.
The transmission is a bone stock Mazda Crate tranny that Bret installed. No fancy gears, no treatments, polishing, etc, just exactly what anyone can buy from Mazda.
The comments about shift points are quite commical. Jamie, not sure what your problem is but you seem to be clearly stating that the car is illegal. You might want to go back and study your dyno charts a little better and learn where to shift. Max torque is at roughly 5400 RPM's, but at 5000 RPM's it's only 1 Ft'lb off. At 4800 RPM, it's only 2 ft. lbs. off. Bottom line is there is absolutely no reason at all to go to 2nd gear at T7 and yes you should be shifting into 5th at the exit onto the pit straight at Atlanta when track conditions are ideal, 40 degrees outside air temp, you are running race fuel and you are 2 feet off the bumper of another car. Sure if it's the middle of the summer, no race fuel and no draft, you will be shifting much further down the straight becasue the car won't have the same power, or speed. But remember, that video shows track record conditions and SM was not the only class to break records that weekend.
There are many SM drivers that way over rev these engines. It might sound like it's faster but it's pretty clear from the dyno charts where the power band is. At 6800 RPM the torque is down 17 ft' lbs and the HP is down 2-1/2. As long as you can keep the engine above 4800 RPM after you shift you are in the sweet spot for the max power.
And you might want to go back and learn something about transmission mulitplication. It is simple math. Torque at the rear wheels will always be lower in the next higher gear with a stock Miata gear/ratio. You assertion of a sweet spot is a fabile although there are people that believe it. My contention is not that he might be illegal; it is straight up that he was. Can I prove it on specmiata.com; no but I don't have to either. I have talked to many people who have watched this video and they have come to the same conclusion. I'm not one to shy away from my words and I certainly won't this time. I have no axe to grind against you or anybody you deal with I only see a car that I strongly believe to be illegal. You say otherwise! No problem as Jim said that is why we are allowed to protest. As anybody that knows me will tell you, I call it like I see it and thats how I see it. If anybody wants the numbers for the multiplication here they are. 3rd gear engine to axel is 5.45.1, 4th gear 4.3.1. If you multiply it out using the above torque drop off your resulting force is as follow; Lets assume 105LBS @5000 and 17 less at 6800 or 88LBS. That gives us a resulting force of 571.3 @5000 rpm and 479.6 @6800 in 3rd gear. In 4th the force is 451.5 @ 5000rpm and 378.4 in 4th. You can continue through all the gears and the result will be the same. There is no reason to short shift a Miata and don't tell me that 1.6 was making 109 + 4 more for fuel!
-------------------- 2010 ARRC Champion 2010 CFR Champion 2010 instigator of the year 2010/2011 Andrew Von C Wingman
Region: Central FL
Car #: 17
Year : 1991 Posts: 275
Status: Offline
posted
Joey, have never met you yet, but nice driving, quick hands, looks like you had a blast in the 1.6L. I am not accusing you of cheating, maybe you expect a 1.6L with 109HP to pull on a 99' with 125+ in 5th gear.
But now time for reality check Joey: They Don't
After watching the video, It took me 20 minutes to stop laughing to write this. The 1.6L can barely pull a kite on a windy day in 5th and thats a top level 119-120hp 1.6L.
1st. Your car is a 109hp like Obama and Bush are twin brothers.
2nd. That is by far the fastest 1.6L I have seen in the SM class, legal, illegal, race fuel, or rocket fuel powered..
3rd. Your obviously a good driver, my 1 hope is that that 109hp short shifting, down on power, not the best 1.6L you have, makes it way down to Florida in Jan. This way you can show off that short shifting technique once again.
And that is my
-------------------- BDR Motorsports, Autotechnik Cliff Blanchard Down on power 1.6 Sluggish overweight 99'
I'm just still laughing at this thread, I find it more and more amusing every time I look at it! I guess NOT winning a race and finishing in 3rd place must make the car illegal. I got my lap record tucked up behind a 99, Cliff Brown did a lap that was .07 off of me with NO draft. Just goes to show you, if you break records you HAVE to be cheating I guess...
Region: CFR
Car #: 97
Year : 1990/99 Posts: 788
Status: Offline
posted
quote:Originally posted by jatterbu: I'm just still laughing at this thread, I find it more and more amusing every time I look at it! I guess NOT winning a race and finishing in 3rd place must make the car illegal. I got my lap record tucked up behind a 99, Cliff Brown did a lap that was .07 off of me with NO draft. Just goes to show you, if you break records you HAVE to be cheating I guess...
Thats not the point! You would not have run the lap times that you did if you were not in that 1.6 and therefore you beat others that you should not have. We all have fast 1.6s and 99s and have raced at RA on more than one occasion. It's not as if we have no idea what's going on or have our own videos to compare it with.
-------------------- 2010 ARRC Champion 2010 CFR Champion 2010 instigator of the year 2010/2011 Andrew Von C Wingman
Region: Central FL
Car #: 17
Year : 1991 Posts: 275
Status: Offline
posted
done!!!! You have a deal
Run the best time you can in your car, I will mine as well, Then we'll switch, you can show me how its done, be careful though I have a few more than 109hp.
Any damage done I will pay for , or vice versa.
We'll do it for $1000.00 for the rental fee of each others car.
Where ya wanna do it at in Jan. Sebring or Homestead???????
-------------------- BDR Motorsports, Autotechnik Cliff Blanchard Down on power 1.6 Sluggish overweight 99'
Region: Lone Star
Year : 1990 Posts: 4253
Status: Offline
posted
For what it's worth, in my experience, 113HP on a dyno dynamics is probably around 120-121HP on a Dynojet. I hope that makes people feel better.
I saw a car that was setup very well for the style of driving, notice how early he's able to turn-in and get on the throttle and he can still pinch the exit inside the 99 to try to get around. The 1.6 made that 99 look like a FWD IT car.
Brian Cates, do you have a shift point calculator spreadsheet too?
-------------------- "Your victory is tainted! Asterisk! Asterisk!!!"--Lisa Simpson
Region: CFR
Car #: 97
Year : 1990/99 Posts: 788
Status: Offline
posted
quote:Originally posted by jatterbu: Well maybe you should let me drive your car
I'm with you on that! I even have a shift light but don't worry its not broke; it just takes longer to come on than yours does. Same deal as Cliff. You show up with that car and me, you, and Cliff can switch as many times as you wish. All of our cars have video and traqmate so it would be lots of fun. We can then compare all of the data and share it right here for everybody to see.
-------------------- 2010 ARRC Champion 2010 CFR Champion 2010 instigator of the year 2010/2011 Andrew Von C Wingman
Haha guys, it's a joke. Besides I live in Seattle and flew down to race in this with some friends Devin Cates and Mark Pombo. I'm glad we are all fast enough to stir up controversey!
Region: Northwest, Oregon
Car #: 79
Year : 90 Posts: 3336
Status: Offline
posted
I'm sure Joey's going to be stressing about what y'all think of that 1.6 when he's piloting a shiny new Riley Camaro for TC Motorsports in Grand Am next year.
-------------------- Crew Chief, 3D Racing #64, aka Team Scrappy 2.0 3rd place E2, 2009 25 Hours of Thunderhill
Crew Chief, EGR/Miller Motorsports #64, aka Team Scrappy E2 Champions, 2008 25 Hours of Thunderhill
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